Is chivalry really dead? :(

leftyjace

Keep respect and decency toward people, but chivalry given to a woman just because she's a woman can go. I agree with those who say you can't have a true attitude of equality and gender based chivalry.

You are nice to women you are courting not just because of manners and decency, but because of chemistry, sexual attraction, and a goal (to prove that you are someone she should partner up with, in various ways.) Hopefully both people in a relationship show each other respect and decency as a way of demonstrating love and keeping the relationship healthy.

Are you male or female?

FlaxMilk

I honestly don't know. It just does.
I think it goes back to following the example of my grandfather. He was a very well of man, a self-made successful gentleman. And he delighted in taking care of the bill. He was VERY much an old-school gentleman, and did this as part of his behavior.
I have always tried to emulate this. I feel the practice brings a smile to a woman's face, which is never a bad thing - at least in my mind. It gives me joy.
So is my behavior selfish in nature? Perhaps. It's possible I'm feeding my ego.
But it's appreciated behavior. And I feel good that I'm in a financial position to not have to think twice about it. (And no, it's not Grandpa's money - it's mine. I went out and made my own. )

Generosity is awesome. If I had a comfortable amount of money, I'd offer to foot a lot of bills too. I pick up little gifts for friends as I can afford to. But not just for women. Guys like a free lunch too :flowerforyou:

ohellotheresa

no it hasn't haha read a dictionary.

DamePiglet

Well, to begin with most times that I'm hanging out with a girl, I'm not courting her. If we're just friends having lunch, why would it make you uncomfortable that she's paying for hers...

I honestly don't know. It just does.
I think it goes back to following the example of my grandfather. He was a very well of man, a self-made successful gentleman. And he delighted in taking care of the bill. He was VERY much an old-school gentleman, and did this as part of his behavior.
I have always tried to emulate this. I feel the practice brings a smile to a woman's face, which is never a bad thing - at least in my mind. It gives me joy.
So is my behavior selfish in nature? Perhaps. It's possible I'm feeding my ego.
But it's appreciated behavior. And I feel good that I'm in a financial position to not have to think twice about it. (And no, it's not Grandpa's money - it's mine. I went out and made my own. )

I tend to pay on dates too, but I expect the girl to at least offer to share the cost. In fact, not doing so is a big red flag for me.

Interesting.

What I'm trying to say is that I agree with doing something nice for my date because I want to do it, but I disagree with being expected to do it.

Now I completely agree with you there. If it's not appreciated or I don't at least get a "thank you", I don't do it again for that particular individual. And if it's a date and that happens - it's a last date.

I'm in the "like you" camp too.

jennifer_417

Honestly, a lot of men I talk to are afraid to act "chivalrous," because they are afraid of offending somebody.

ohellotheresa

I think people need to look in the dictionary what it means to be chivalrous before they respond. I really feel like some people are responding without knowing an ACTUAL definition.
(lol it's mfp I am expecting way too much from people to look this up I'm sure)

Please read the thread... the definition has been cited a couple of times.

I read the thread yeah here's what the actual definition is:

noun
noun: chivalry
1.
the medieval knightly system with its religious, moral, and social code.
historical
knights, noblemen, and horsemen collectively.
"I fought against the cream of French chivalry"
the combination of qualities expected of an ideal knight, esp. courage, honor, courtesy, justice, and a readiness to help the weak.
synonyms: knight errantry, courtly manners, knightliness, courtliness, nobility; More
courteous behavior, esp. that of a man toward women.
plural noun: chivalries

your welcome.

leftyjace

Tree... yes... it has been.

I'm quoting myself below:

From m-w.com:

chiv·al·ry noun \ˈshi-vəl-rē\
: the system of values (such as loyalty and honor) that knights in the Middle Ages were expected to follow

: an honorable and polite way of behaving especially toward women

I think in the modern context, the second definition is more applicable.

dayone987

I think it goes back to following the example of my grandfather. He was a very well of man, a self-made successful gentleman. And he delighted in taking care of the bill. He was VERY much an old-school gentleman, and did this as part of his behavior.
I have always tried to emulate this. I feel the practice brings a smile to a woman's face, which is never a bad thing - at least in my mind. It gives me joy.
So is my behavior selfish in nature? Perhaps. It's possible I'm feeding my ego.
But it's appreciated behavior. And I feel good that I'm in a financial position to not have to think twice about it. (And no, it's not Grandpa's money - it's mine. I went out and made my own. )

Just curious; do you cover the bill for male friends as well? And if you do, does it make you feels as good as when you pay for a woman's meal?

PtheronJr

"Chivalrous" behavior is considered courteous behavior where I live.

Simply put, if a man doesn't behave that way (here), it's a reflection of his upbringing. When he does, it shows that he wasn't "raised by wolves."

It implies that his parents invested time in teaching him right from wrong and how to be considerate of another's feelings.

Now, whether he REALLY IS a good guy or not would remain to be seen.

I actually feel a great deal of sympathy for men who get their "hands slapped" for opening a car door or picking up a check.
The vast majority of the time, when guys behave that way, it's has nothing to do with trying to with trying to be disrespectful. He's just trying to show you that he can be taken in public.

Please note: I'm not saying that a woman should always be a "free loader."

So where you come from it's a classist designator and people who lapse in the case of manners considered acceptable to you are seen as lesser human beings.
Fantastic, a pretty good example of why even "common courtesy" is often just a hodge-podge of passive aggression and condescension.

Bobbie8786

I think people need to look in the dictionary what it means to be chivalrous before they respond. I really feel like some people are responding without knowing an ACTUAL definition.
(lol it's mfp I am expecting way too much from people to look this up I'm sure)

Please read the thread... the definition has been cited a couple of times.

I read the thread yeah here's what the actual definition is:

noun
noun: chivalry
1.
the medieval knightly system with its religious, moral, and social code.
historical
knights, noblemen, and horsemen collectively.
"I fought against the cream of French chivalry"
the combination of qualities expected of an ideal knight, esp. courage, honor, courtesy, justice, and a readiness to help the weak.
synonyms: knight errantry, courtly manners, knightliness, courtliness, nobility; More
courteous behavior, esp. that of a man toward women.
plural noun: chivalries

your welcome.

You are only quoting the first definition. Also, "an honorable and polite way of behaving especially toward women."

You're welcome.

FlaxMilk

Are you male or female?

Female. I don't get offended when a man won't walk through a door I hold for him, because I know it's just ingrained in him that it's disrespectful and not that he really sees me differently. It's an automatic habit. But if I get to the door first, I'm going to try to hold it for whoever is there. Every guy I've ever dated has been of a similar financial situation as me, so there's never really been a reason for one of us to pay the bill over the other except for things like birthdays.

leftyjace

I think it goes back to following the example of my grandfather. He was a very well of man, a self-made successful gentleman. And he delighted in taking care of the bill. He was VERY much an old-school gentleman, and did this as part of his behavior.
I have always tried to emulate this. I feel the practice brings a smile to a woman's face, which is never a bad thing - at least in my mind. It gives me joy.
So is my behavior selfish in nature? Perhaps. It's possible I'm feeding my ego.
But it's appreciated behavior. And I feel good that I'm in a financial position to not have to think twice about it. (And no, it's not Grandpa's money - it's mine. I went out and made my own. )

Just curious; do you cover the bill for male friends as well? And if you do, does it make you feels as good as when you pay for a woman's meal?

I do sometimes, yes.
Honestly? No, it doesnt.
But then again, I'm less worried about their comfort.
And oftentimes, they get me back in the future.
Well, sometimes they do.

Myhaloslipped

Yeah, I would say that's a problem. Can't she do something nice for you? Why does it make you feel so uncomfortable? Do you feel emasculated? Do you assume you're more successful than her? I buy stuff for my boyfriends all the time. It's a nice gesture as long as you don't require it.

Of course she can do something nice for me. I don't feel emasculated, I just feel that if I ask her out, I should pay.
I don't assume I'm more successful...
I've been known to let a woman pay if she asked me out and insisted on paying.
It was hard, but I did it.

I agree. This is a polite and attractive quality in a man, in my opinion. If a guy asked me out and then expected me to pay, I probably wouldn't go on a second date with him. Of course I would order a reasonably priced dinner as well and not something super expensive. However, I would definitely offer to pay for things on the second date and try to even things out once we started officially dating.

ashesfromfire

Dying? Yes. Dead? Nope.

I am lucky enough to have a wonderful man in my life who is, in addition to a large number of great qualities, quite chivalrous.
I look back on out first date and laugh at myself, I wouldnt let him carry something heavy even when he insisted, rolled my eyes when he jogged ahead to open my car door, almost got my fingers shut in said door because i reached to close it when he was already shutting it for me, and at dinner I didnt realize he was pulling a chair out for me, I thought he wanted the seat and I quickly scampered around the other side of the table..........woopsie! Later that evening when he wanted to take a walk under the stars, I didnt understand why he wouldn't come into my room while I traded out my heals for something more comfortable, I confused being a gentleman with him not being interested in me. Goodness, I was a fool that night! I had never in my life encountered a man who did any of these things, so sadly I have to say it is dying - to the point where I was acting like a complete fool in response to it, but clearly, not all together dead.
I'll admit, sometimes I have to get over my own ego to to accept it. I still dont let him carry heavy things, I work at Home Depot - I can handle the weigh of my bag just fine, thank you - but I do know it comes from a good place. Though sometimes I still giggle or roll my eyes, I let him open my door, pull out my seat, and all together act like a complete gentleman around me.

FlaxMilk

I read the thread yeah here's what the actual definition is:

noun
noun: chivalry
1.
the medieval knightly system with its religious, moral, and social code.
historical
knights, noblemen, and horsemen collectively.
"I fought against the cream of French chivalry"
the combination of qualities expected of an ideal knight, esp. courage, honor, courtesy, justice, and a readiness to help the weak.
synonyms: knight errantry, courtly manners, knightliness, courtliness, nobility; More
courteous behavior, esp. that of a man toward women.
plural noun: chivalries

your welcome.

There is no way to ask this without sounding snarky, but what point are you trying to make?

wheird

I believe in maintaining a certain standard of behavior when interacting with a romantic interest. And also to a somewhat lesser degree with the opposite sex in general. But I don't really expect anyone else to adhere to the same standard that I do.

FatHuMan1

Can't have chivalry and equality at the same time, so yes it's dead or at the least almost dead.

Equality is one thing and Chivalry is another.

I love statements that demonstrate a certain ignorance of the subject matter. The chivalric code was based on an assumption of inequality. It was honorable for a man of a certain position to protect and serve the weak. Once you have equality, what is being discussed is mere courtesy among equals.

Based on the Merriam Webster definition of the world "chivalry", I find it ironic that you are accusing the dictionary of being ignorant of the subject matter.

"The system of values (such as loyalty and honor) that knights in the Middle Ages were expected to follow"

So sayeth Webster's.

Also go look up ironic while you're in there.

Bingo

Both of you "gentlemen" need to look earlier in the topic where the M-W definition was already quoted... and included the 2nd possible definition, which you conveniently left out.

And ironic is exactly what I meant, seeing as how you both strive to give off an image of intelligence, yet will conveniently ignore a very valid definition of the word... which is decidedly less than honorable (maybe even chivalrous?) behavior.

[q]From m-w.com:

QUOTE:
chiv·al·ry noun \ˈshi-vəl-rē\
: the system of values (such as loyalty and honor) that knights in the Middle Ages were expected to follow

: an honorable and polite way of behaving especially toward women


I think in the modern context, the second definition is more applicable.[/q]


So you get to cherry pick your definitions but the other two "gentlemen" don't? :huh:



I suggest you look up hypocrisy the next time you open a dictionary.

ohellotheresa

lol i know it's the first definition, that's the point. the definition is that it's a medieval ideal for gender role behavior. It's not dead but it should be because it's based entirely on misogynist and sexist principles. WHICH I FIND PAINFULLY OBVIOUS JUST BY LOOKING AT THE FIRST DEFINITION. here's another look at the definition of chivalry lol k thanks http://www.wildcat.arizona.edu/article/2013/10/chivalry-degrades-women-promotes-sexism-in-society

wannabpiper

I like to be treated like a lady; and I like to treat my man well.

wheird

I do not believe that chivalry necessarily degrades women and promotes sexism. But then again, I didn't bother reading the article.