Is chivalry really dead? :(

stumblinthrulife

An argument about whether being polite to one another is a good thing or not.

Oh internet, don't you ever change.

wheird

An argument about whether being polite to one another is a good thing or not.

Oh internet, don't you ever change.

I know right? Apparently being polite is misogynistic. Or something.

leftyjace

An argument about whether being polite to one another is a good thing or not.

Oh internet, don't you ever change.

I know right? Apparently being polite is misogynistic. Or something.

Or perhaps she is just taking part in traditional teenage behavior... meaning, being a contrarian simply to practice asserting herself, regardless of whether the position is logical.

DamePiglet

An argument about whether being polite to one another is a good thing or not.

Oh internet, don't you ever change.

I know right? Apparently being polite is misogynistic. Or something.

Yeah, it's all kind of a blur, really.

wheird

An argument about whether being polite to one another is a good thing or not.

Oh internet, don't you ever change.

I know right? Apparently being polite is misogynistic. Or something.

Or perhaps she is just taking part in traditional teenage behavior... meaning, being a contrarian simply to practice asserting herself, regardless of whether the position is logical.

That is sort of the impression that I am getting.

ohellotheresa

I guess people think they deserve a pat on the back for behaving politely to women, it can't just be expected. sure, the "good old days" are gone.... I agree... one can only hope that they are gone...

So you do not wish to be treated politely?

you would think that wouldn't you? because expecting people to treat people with kindness just BECAUSE and not based on gender means I don't want to be treated politely? I think medieval gender roles are dead yeah, I hope that they are dead because I would like to be treated with more respect than the woman of medieval times..... That must mean I don't want to be treated politely? ...... not quite sure how you got to that but I'm not sure why people are defending chivalry in the first place because it's such an old fashioned out dated thing that I really don't understand. there is no way I can understand. sorry. but your question just validates my own conclusion to myself...

Bobbie8786

I guess people think they deserve a pat on the back for behaving politely to women, it can't just be expected. sure, the "good old days" are gone.... I agree... one can only hope that they are gone...

So you do not wish to be treated politely?

If I may interject, I suspect it is a raging case of thinking it is the appropriate feminist response. Slightly off subject, I wonder how men appreciate being portrayed as completely inept idiots in the modern age. In commercials and t.v. sitcoms you are portrayed as bumbling fools who could not live a day without the brilliance and grace of women. Do you find that sexist or do you just not care because you know better? I suspect it is the latter, too bad more women don't have the level of confidence to brush off imagined slights like some man daring to open a door for her.

Mustang_Susie

"Chivalrous" behavior is considered courteous behavior where I live.

Simply put, if a man doesn't behave that way (here), it's a reflection of his upbringing. When he does, it shows that he wasn't "raised by wolves."

It implies that his parents invested time in teaching him right from wrong and how to be considerate of another's feelings.

Now, whether he REALLY IS a good guy or not would remain to be seen.

I actually feel a great deal of sympathy for men who get their "hands slapped" for opening a car door or picking up a check.
The vast majority of the time, when guys behave that way, it's has nothing to do with trying to with trying to be disrespectful. He's just trying to show you that he can be taken in public.

Please note: I'm not saying that a woman should always be a "free loader."

So where you come from it's a classist designator and people who lapse in the case of manners considered acceptable to you are seen as lesser human beings.
Fantastic, a pretty good example of why even "common courtesy" is often just a hodge-podge of passive aggression and condescension.

So, you can affect chivalry while lacking integrity?

Who is this directed toward?

Anyone.
It is an interesting presupposition don't you think?
You can pretend to be chivalrous to meet a societal standard, yet really lack genuine decency.
The word scoundrel comes to mind...

dayone987

I don't think the idea of honor and being polite are in any way misogynistic. I don't care if the "idea" of it came during a time that was misogynistic, that does not negate it's value. However, I admit to being a lot older than you and raised in a much different society where being polite was a virtue. I think the current trend of complete and total self-involvement definitely indicates that living in a "polite" society is certainly on it's death bed.

Lot of truth here.

The debate (for me anyway) isn't so much about people being polite to each other, rather more about the direction of courtesies.No one on here is advocating complete and total self involvement but rather feel that it's great if people of either sex can buy meals, pay for dates, open doors, etc. for males and females.

I'm likely a lot older than you as well, not that it matters.

I'm older than you think...

I guess I don't understand why permitting and accepting the behavior you describe above has to be a condemnation of the behavior that I espouse. Cannot the two exist, and be appreciated for their own merits?

If you want to extend that behavior to both sexes, no debate. The fact that you feel uncomfortable if that behavior is extended to you by a woman makes me think that it's perhaps not just about generosity.

Why does it make you feel uncomfortable when a woman pays?

FlaxMilk

Would you prefer to be treated like crap?

Is it not a good thing that when I am dating someone I am kind to them and treat them nicely?

It's a great thing. But I think you would probably treat a man you are dating kindly and nicely too. Because you want to have sex, because you genuinely care about them and enjoy their company, because you are a decent person with good manners, because it's a way of showing affection. I'm nice to my husband but no one calls it chivalry.

ohellotheresa

I'm not the only one in this thread making the argument that I'm making. everyone against my opinion has a right to their own opinion, I'm not understanding why people are being so defensive towards me citing that I am a teenager (I am not a teenager I am a college graduate thank you) and hypocrisy. when I really am not straying from the OP or the forum topic at all, yet I'm being picked apart and lied about in this thread because I'm not changing my opinion............... hmmmmmmmmm

DamePiglet

"Chivalrous" behavior is considered courteous behavior where I live.

Simply put, if a man doesn't behave that way (here), it's a reflection of his upbringing. When he does, it shows that he wasn't "raised by wolves."

It implies that his parents invested time in teaching him right from wrong and how to be considerate of another's feelings.

Now, whether he REALLY IS a good guy or not would remain to be seen.

I actually feel a great deal of sympathy for men who get their "hands slapped" for opening a car door or picking up a check.
The vast majority of the time, when guys behave that way, it's has nothing to do with trying to with trying to be disrespectful. He's just trying to show you that he can be taken in public.

Please note: I'm not saying that a woman should always be a "free loader."

So where you come from it's a classist designator and people who lapse in the case of manners considered acceptable to you are seen as lesser human beings.
Fantastic, a pretty good example of why even "common courtesy" is often just a hodge-podge of passive aggression and condescension.

So, you can affect chivalry while lacking integrity?

Who is this directed toward?

Anyone.
It is an interesting presupposition don't you think?
You can pretend to be chivalrous to meet a societal standard, yet really lack genuine decency.
The word scoundrel comes to mind...

Agreed.
Women are certainly capable of phony behavior, too.

BeachIron

Can't have chivalry and equality at the same time, so yes it's dead or at the least almost dead.

Equality is one thing and Chivalry is another.

I love statements that demonstrate a certain ignorance of the subject matter. The chivalric code was based on an assumption of inequality. It was honorable for a man of a certain position to protect and serve the weak. Once you have equality, what is being discussed is mere courtesy among equals.

Based on the Merriam Webster definition of the world "chivalry", I find it ironic that you are accusing the dictionary of being ignorant of the subject matter.

"The system of values (such as loyalty and honor) that knights in the Middle Ages were expected to follow"

So sayeth Webster's.

Also go look up ironic while you're in there.

Bingo

Both of you "gentlemen" need to look earlier in the topic where the M-W definition was already quoted... and included the 2nd possible definition, which you conveniently left out.

And ironic is exactly what I meant, seeing as how you both strive to give off an image of intelligence, yet will conveniently ignore a very valid definition of the word... which is decidedly less than honorable (maybe even chivalrous?) behavior.

[q]From m-w.com:

QUOTE:
chiv·al·ry noun \ˈshi-vəl-rē\
: the system of values (such as loyalty and honor) that knights in the Middle Ages were expected to follow

: an honorable and polite way of behaving especially toward women


I think in the modern context, the second definition is more applicable.[/q]


So you get to cherry pick your definitions but the other two "gentlemen" don't? :huh:



I suggest you look up hypocrisy the next time you open a dictionary.

At least I included the other definition in my cititation... which is more than I can say for them.

You seem wounded

BekaBooluvsu

Oh good heavens, no.
But it might be close.
You wouldn't believe how shocked some women are when I insist on paying for their meal (even if it's not a date), open the door for them, allow them to go first, do the heavy lifting, etc.
I think it's dying in Europe a lot quicker than it is here in the USA, though.

I think you are awesome! Please don't change, the world needs more men like you! Big hugs! :flowerforyou:

ETA: need more women that appreciate these qualities too. I appreciate men who practice chivalry.

wheird

Would you prefer to be treated like crap?

Is it not a good thing that when I am dating someone I am kind to them and treat them nicely?

It's a great thing. But I think you would probably treat a man you are dating kindly and nicely too. Because you want to have sex, because you genuinely care about them and enjoy their company, because you are a decent person with good manners, because it's a way of showing affection. I'm nice to my husband but no one calls it chivalry.

You're right, if I were dating a man I would treat them in a similar way that I treat a woman. That is why I called it a standard of behavior rather than using the term "chivalry" since it historically only applies to the behavior of men.

Mustang_Susie

"Chivalrous" behavior is considered courteous behavior where I live.

Simply put, if a man doesn't behave that way (here), it's a reflection of his upbringing. When he does, it shows that he wasn't "raised by wolves."

It implies that his parents invested time in teaching him right from wrong and how to be considerate of another's feelings.

Now, whether he REALLY IS a good guy or not would remain to be seen.

I actually feel a great deal of sympathy for men who get their "hands slapped" for opening a car door or picking up a check.
The vast majority of the time, when guys behave that way, it's has nothing to do with trying to with trying to be disrespectful. He's just trying to show you that he can be taken in public.

Please note: I'm not saying that a woman should always be a "free loader."

So where you come from it's a classist designator and people who lapse in the case of manners considered acceptable to you are seen as lesser human beings.
Fantastic, a pretty good example of why even "common courtesy" is often just a hodge-podge of passive aggression and condescension.

So, you can affect chivalry while lacking integrity?

Who is this directed toward?

Anyone.
It is an interesting presupposition don't you think?
You can pretend to be chivalrous to meet a societal standard, yet really lack genuine decency.
The word scoundrel comes to mind...

Agreed.
Women are certainly capable of phony behavior, too.

Yes, there is equality of hypocrisy.

ohellotheresa

An argument about whether being polite to one another is a good thing or not.

Oh internet, don't you ever change.

I know right? Apparently being polite is misogynistic. Or something.

Or perhaps she is just taking part in traditional teenage behavior... meaning, being a contrarian simply to practice asserting herself, regardless of whether the position is logical.

does making up my age as being younger than I am make you feel better?

wheird

I'm not the only one in this thread making the argument that I'm making. everyone against my opinion has a right to their own opinion, I'm not understanding why people are being so defensive towards me citing that I am a teenager (I am not a teenager I am a college graduate thank you) and hypocrisy. when I really am not straying from the OP or the forum topic at all, yet I'm being picked apart and lied about in this thread because I'm not changing my opinion............... hmmmmmmmmm

I don't think anyone really called you a teenager. More that your behavior is typical of a teenager who is being contrary for the sake of being contrary.

While I agree that the medieval brand of chivalry was rather misogynistic, most of us in here are talking about a general politeness towards women. (I think, too much quoting going on for me to get the full gist of things at this stage)

leftyjace

Why does it make you feel uncomfortable when a woman pays?

This is going to sound silly, but I'll go ahead and say it.
I derive a lot of happiness/joy from being a nurturer and protector, especially of women.
I am a bigger, stronger guy with blue eyes, a deep voice, and a shaved head. I have to actively try to set people at ease so they are not naturally intimidated by me.
I also grew up with younger sisters, and it was drilled into my head at a young age that girls were special and needed my protection, and I took that to heart.
So I don't know if it's that I enjoy making women feel that I can take care of them, or my protective reflex kicking in that means that I'm "harmed" by the bill versus them being harmed, or what...
I don't know.
Psychoanalysis, here we come.

ohellotheresa

I posted my opinion. I gave reasons as to why I have my opinion. If you don't like it don't share my opinion. PRETTY SIMPLE

FlaxMilk

I suspect it is the latter, too bad more women don't have the level of confidence to brush off imagined slights like some man daring to open a door for her.

It's true, I see women flying into rages daily over this issue. It's really sad. They are everywhere

Most women who are opposed to chivalry don't get offended or feel slighted on an individual level. It's the overall idea that someone's behavior should be based on gender and not just courtesy. If a man holds the door for me, I consider it polite. If I hold the door for a man and he just cannot walk through, I don't get offended because it's what he's been taught. It's kind of funny, sweet, or cute. But that is based on the idea of chivalry, and it isn't necessary. It won't hurt me for a man to walk through a door I hold for him. I just hope that people keep holding the door for others because it's courteous.

wheird

I posted my opinion. I gave reasons as to why I have my opinion. If you don't like it don't share my opinion. PRETTY SIMPLE

LOUD NOISES

meshashesha2012

I like to be treated like a lady; and I like to treat my man well.

i agree with this.

there's treating people equally and then there's treating people special who you are courting. considering how many women are anti "chivalry" i'm really not surprised that the number of relationships have increased where women don't know if they are in relationships or are wondering if a guy is in to them or not. they were putting energy out into the universe to attract a guy who treats them equally, the way he would treat a friend, and then surprisingly when he does the women are obsessing about "does he or doesn't he like me".

i dont think this is an question of chivalry being dead but more so a question of politeness dying a slow and painful death.

i think for women, those who are philosophical descendents of the very recent steinem style feminism have the biggest issue with balancing questions of equality, strength, bringing home the bacon and being feminine. i think it's important that these women look to other examples of women who have lived in this country for centuries and have found ways to balance those things.

Bobbie8786

I'm not the only one in this thread making the argument that I'm making. everyone against my opinion has a right to their own opinion, I'm not understanding why people are being so defensive towards me citing that I am a teenager (I am not a teenager I am a college graduate thank you) and hypocrisy. when I really am not straying from the OP or the forum topic at all, yet I'm being picked apart and lied about in this thread because I'm not changing my opinion............... hmmmmmmmmm

Umm, who is defensive towards you? You are stating your opinion and others, myself included, are simply stating our opinion, just because it is different than yours does not make it defensive. Personally, I have not used all caps in any post nor did I say you were a teenager nor did I "lie," I directly quoted you each time I made a post. As I read further, it seems your main problem is with the word "chivalry" not with the actual behavior of being polite. For me I don't tend to get my dander up over semantics. I like the idea of honor and being polite, don't give a rats behind where it stems from.

FlaxMilk

You're right, if I were dating a man I would treat them in a similar way that I treat a woman. That is why I called it a standard of behavior rather than using the term "chivalry" since it historically only applies to the behavior of men.

I think just about everyone on this thread can agree that as a standard of behavior, treating each other politely and doing special things for your romantic partner is a good idea. I think people are arguing that the term chivalry is an unnecessary standard at this point, and that's why it can die. The universal courtesy can stay.

bellesouth18

I guess I fail to see the conflict between chivalry and equality.

Chivalry is a way of treating people...

Equality is allowing people an equal opportunity for achievement.

Men who hold back chivalry in the name of equality do so out of holding a grudge, or because they don't like showing respect to women in the first place.

But that's just my opinion.

I really like how you think. I live in the deep South. It's alive and well down here, with a few exceptions.

wheird

You're right, if I were dating a man I would treat them in a similar way that I treat a woman. That is why I called it a standard of behavior rather than using the term "chivalry" since it historically only applies to the behavior of men.

I think just about everyone on this thread can agree that as a standard of behavior, treating each other politely and doing special things for your romantic partner is a good idea. I think people are arguing that the term chivalry is an unnecessary standard at this point, and that's why it can die. The universal courtesy can stay.

Yeah, when I think of chivalry, I think of men laying their traveling cloaks down over puddles for a lady to step on to avoid getting her feet wet. Which is just unnecessary. :laugh:

leftyjace

Yeah, when I think of chivalry, I think of men laying their traveling cloaks down over puddles for a lady to step on to avoid getting her feet wet. Which is just unnecessary. :laugh:

it is? Crud. NOW you tell me.

BeachIron

You're right, if I were dating a man I would treat them in a similar way that I treat a woman. That is why I called it a standard of behavior rather than using the term "chivalry" since it historically only applies to the behavior of men.

I think just about everyone on this thread can agree that as a standard of behavior, treating each other politely and doing special things for your romantic partner is a good idea. I think people are arguing that the term chivalry is an unnecessary standard at this point, and that's why it can die. The universal courtesy can stay.

Yeah, when I think of chivalry, I think of men laying their traveling cloaks down over puddles for a lady to step on to avoid getting her feet wet. Which is just unnecessary. :laugh:

Cloaks don't come cheap these days

wheird

You're right, if I were dating a man I would treat them in a similar way that I treat a woman. That is why I called it a standard of behavior rather than using the term "chivalry" since it historically only applies to the behavior of men.

I think just about everyone on this thread can agree that as a standard of behavior, treating each other politely and doing special things for your romantic partner is a good idea. I think people are arguing that the term chivalry is an unnecessary standard at this point, and that's why it can die. The universal courtesy can stay.

Yeah, when I think of chivalry, I think of men laying their traveling cloaks down over puddles for a lady to step on to avoid getting her feet wet. Which is just unnecessary. :laugh:

Cloaks don't come cheap these days

We should bring them back.