Are we all..sexist?

miss_jessiejane

Women suck!

Only if you're nice to them.

arwacky

How does he know that a lesser quilified piece of eye candy got the job over him? Did they send him a letter saying that we decided to give the job to a woman that we would rather look at better than you. Oh, and by the way, she doesn't know anything about this job. i'm not saying this doesn't happen as far as the hiring is concerned. But, you usually don't find out who they hired instead of you.

So..I previously mentioned it but I'll go into a little more detail. He has a friend that's a manager at the location and this manager went out of his way to give my friend a good recommendation and was surprised that they hired this other female. He has access to her CV and she is a recent grad with no experience whereas my friend has a year experience. When my friend mentioned it of course I defended their decision...I told him that even though he has a year of experience over her maybe they were trying to be decent human beings and give her a job and he already has one so he should be happy. But the eye candy theory came up cause he was told by ppl that work there that the new hire is pretty. The manager friend never got a straight forward answer from the people that were hiring for their decision.

paperpudding

The women probably got hired because they could pay them less.

Really?

Don't u have equal opportunity laws and award wages that a qualified person has to be paid the same regardless of gender?

Not in the US. Women generally get paid 77 cents to a man's dollar even if they're working the same position, pulling the same hours, outputting the same amount of work, etc. You get the idea. Men get paid more, the end. It's 2014 and yet it hasn't been changed. You'd think we were a developed nation...oh, wait.

Ok.
I am surprised at that.

Is taken for granted in Australia that the same position gets paid the same amount, regardless of gender - is illegal to do otherwise.

Yes, I know average male earnings are still higher than average female earning but this correlates to a range of factors - more women take time out from the workforce to raise children, more women work part time, more women go into lower paid industries etc.
But Women don't get paid less if they are equally qualified and work the same hours in the same job.

Our Government Accountability Office (GAO) continues to report that women still make less, even holding the same jobs (full time and year round). While the reasons you listed are accountable for 60% of the difference there is a good 40% that is unaccounted for and wholly unreasonable. It's also statically proven that the wage gap is higher for women of color (69c for African American women and 58c for Latinas/Hispanics, and again, this is for full-time, year round work). In the USA anyway-- I can't speak for other places.

There are other interesting statistics I've come across (such as that women with children get paid 2.5% less while men with children get paid 2% more (GAO) as some convoluted "boost" and that after our lovely (/sarcasm) recession men were re-employed more frequently (an increase of one million between 2011-2012, whereas the re-employment rate for women remained the same) leaving many women to resort to finding part-time work) but I'd need to check the reports/numbers again before I can officially add those.

Just to quickly add, I hear a lot of people justify the wage gap by pointing out the differences in male-dominant and female-dominant careers, but I never hear anyone mention anything about the fact that female-dominant jobs/careers are underpaid and undervalued which is a problem on its own and only contributes to the gap. Just some food for thought.

Re your last paragraph - yes, I totally agree.
I was not justifying the wage gap as such.
Was just querying whether you had equal opportunity laws there as poster saying employer chose a woman instead of Op's male friend just to pay less suggested otherwise.

paperpudding

How does he know that a lesser quilified piece of eye candy got the job over him? Did they send him a letter saying that we decided to give the job to a woman that we would rather look at better than you. Oh, and by the way, she doesn't know anything about this job. i'm not saying this doesn't happen as far as the hiring is concerned. But, you usually don't find out who they hired instead of you.

So..I previously mentioned it but I'll go into a little more detail. He has a friend that's a manager at the location and this manager went out of his way to give my friend a good recommendation and was surprised that they hired this other female. He has access to her CV and she is a recent grad with no experience whereas my friend has a year experience. When my friend mentioned it of course I defended their decision...I told him that even though he has a year of experience over her maybe they were trying to be decent human beings and give her a job and he already has one so he should be happy. But the eye candy theory came up cause he was told by ppl that work there that the new hire is pretty. The manager friend never got a straight forward answer from the people that were hiring for their decision.

That manager's confidentiality skills seem very poor.

The manager who had access to her CV should not be sharing details about it to his friends.

reimaka17

Not by decent people. Perhaps by a tiny fascistic subset of people. You seem to be suggesting that every day a majority of people condone rape. Which suggests it's you living in a fantasy land.

The thing is, there aren't many decent people. And yes, everyday a majority of people do condone rape. It's called rape culture. You have no idea how many times I've actually heard people say things like "she deserved it because of what she was wearing/saying" and "she's exaggerating, she must have liked it" and "she said yes first, you can't change your mind halfway" and "she provoked me with her promiscuity" and so on. People condone rape and perpetuate rape culture by trivializing it, by victim blaming/shaming (term: rape apologists), and by sexualizing/fetishizing it.

By who? I'm 29, the majority of people I know around that age aren't married, nor do any feel under pressure to be. I know many couples who've been together for 5+ years with no plans to marry in the near future or have kids, and nobody cares.

Then you and your friends are lucky because I'm 22 and I have no intention of bearing children and I'm constantly told that I'm going to "change my mind" and "see reason". My older, unwed sister is constantly asked (even by strangers) why she isn't married and doesn't have children, and the "is there something wrong with you" is definitely implied. One of my best friends was pushed into having a baby for that reason, and she had to set her career aside. If women don't want kids they're considered to be abnormal and selfish. It might not be as bad as it was twenty years ago, but it's still pretty bad today.

Also, you say nobody cares but how do you KNOW? Do you monitor their every interaction? It's unreasonable to say that it doesn't happen just because your friends haven't told you whether or not it might have.

You think we're not called *kitten* and sluts for every little thing?

This one baffles me. Perhaps it's because you're older but I am constantly around people who are calling women *kitten*/sluts for every little thing they do. They show cleavage and they're a *kitten*. They have a one-night stand and they're a slut. They have pre-marital sex and they're ruined. They wear shorts and they're intentionally provocative. They admit to liking sex and they're dirty slags. I recently read an article about women in the military who pose sexy selfies and you wouldn't believe the vitriol they get for it, meanwhile there are actual catalogs and calendars of half-naked, greased-up army men and it's either really hot or funny. God forbid it's a woman, then she's just a *kitten*.

You think we're not considered "tarnished" if we choose to have pre-marital sex,

Nooo. Do you hang around girls? Any? At all? Even one? Because most women have witnessed or experienced this some time in their life. Do you know that some abstinence-only schools are trying to push girls into wearing chastity rings, but boys are not required to do so? Do you know that there are actual workshops and books designed to tell women to "keep themselves pure and clean", and not all of them are even religious? A girl has sex at 15 and she's a *kitten*, a guy has sex at 15 and he's cool. The idea that a woman's worth relies on whether or not her hymen is intact has NOT died out.

or dirty slags if we sleep around?

typical response to men who sleep around: oh, he's such a man slut! way to go! that's how it's done! i'm jealous. he must be a king at sex.

typical response to women who sleep around: oh, she's such a slut! ew! i wouldn't touch her vagina with six condoms if i were you, she might have something. and don't even think about trying for a relationship, girls like that are bad news.

You think there aren't groups of people protesting in front of Planned Parenthood who think they have a right to determine what we do with our bodies and trying to shame us for it? (oops, i accidentally deleted your comment, sorry)

I live in the USA and supposedly we're a country supportive of personal choices, and yet this happens frequently. Did you know that they even open up fake clinics near Planned Parenthood sites, draw pregnant girls/women in, and they set out to "persuade them" by changing their minds, which involve using scare-tactics and trying to steal their personal information to contact their relatives or broadcast their predicament?

As for the pickiters--once they realize cajoling the girl isn't going to work they resort to publicly shaming her. And that's just P&P. Hospitals across the country will refuse to administer any form of birth control (morning after pills, abortion procedures, etc) for "reasons". There are countless articles/interviews about/of rape victims going to clinics/hospitals and being denied any form of birth control or the staff trying to "talk" them out of it.

You think guys don't shout disgusting things at us from their cars and balconies, or grope us as bars/clubs,

Yes, that happens. I don't envy you it. Walk away.

and then laugh at our discomfort because "that's cute"?

That's just flat out weird. If someone did that I'd have them ejected.

It happens all the time. My sister was a bartender at a pretty decent club and the stories she tells me are horrific. The first time she tried to make a complaint the manager brought her to the side and told her to deal with it and not cause a scene, and to smile and get her money's worth. I went to her club a few weeks ago (before she quit) and the guys would actually slap the bartender's/waitress' *kitten* or stroke their arms or say really disgusting things and laugh at them when they got flustered/mad, and EVERYONE would turn a blind eye and take it like a joke.

This kind of assault is common for bartenders and waitress. Heck, it's common for everyday women just looking to have fun at a club/bar.

You think we don't get paid less for the same job--and usually a job we're thought to have slept and flirted our way up to?

If it's literally the exact same , then that's illegal here.
[/quote]

But it's still done. While 60% of the wage gap can be explained by "typical" gender-specific reasons (type/quality of the work, part time vs. full time, maternity leave, etc), 40% is unaccounted for, and therefore unreasonable. There's absolutely no justification for it. 1/3 of those women work the same job for the same hours/time and they still get paid less. For what reason?


And that's the end of this conversation for me. I've been on this thread waaay too long already. Sorry, OP, for spamming your post with all my comments. Off to exercise~

reimaka17

Your friend sounds like a butthurt man-child who is used to getting what he wants and now that he's in the real world, he sees that it's not like the little bubble he grew up in, so he's taken on a misogynistic view. He has to blame someone, why not blame women?

Just my opinion on the matter.

Do you know where that image of Benedict Cumberbatch is from? I'd say Sherlock but he looks way too young!

arwacky

How does he know that a lesser quilified piece of eye candy got the job over him? Did they send him a letter saying that we decided to give the job to a woman that we would rather look at better than you. Oh, and by the way, she doesn't know anything about this job. i'm not saying this doesn't happen as far as the hiring is concerned. But, you usually don't find out who they hired instead of you.

So..I previously mentioned it but I'll go into a little more detail. He has a friend that's a manager at the location and this manager went out of his way to give my friend a good recommendation and was surprised that they hired this other female. He has access to her CV and she is a recent grad with no experience whereas my friend has a year experience. When my friend mentioned it of course I defended their decision...I told him that even though he has a year of experience over her maybe they were trying to be decent human beings and give her a job and he already has one so he should be happy. But the eye candy theory came up cause he was told by ppl that work there that the new hire is pretty. The manager friend never got a straight forward answer from the people that were hiring for their decision.

That manager's confidentiality skills seem very poor.

The manager who had access to her CV should not be sharing details about it to his friends.

That's fair. I agree.

But I'll bring it back to me. When I was applying to a job like 3 years ago the manager hiring me gave me no interview. I was sure that I wasn't getting the job because that was the weirdest "interview" ever. (I got asked no questions at all!) turns out I got the job. I found out later on that the manager has a soft spot for attractive women.. And no, I got paid the same as a male in that position.

ekztawas

I think your friend is being a baby and overly sensitive. Yes. There are people who prefer to help females and there are people who prefer males. It can go both ways. It's just the way life is. Life is unfair.

I'd also tell your friend that there are MANY times when women will be passed over for a job because there is a possibility the lady will become pregnant and quit the job after using the maternity leave. A friend who works in human resources has told me that. Let's also be honest. It's a possibility he was not the best fit for the job. If it was an entry-level job they could have given the job to the recent grad to give her a crack at it. If that's the case I commend the employer because a lot of us young folk are struggling with the "I need to get experience before I can get experience" conundrum.

Zomoniac

Not by decent people. Perhaps by a tiny fascistic subset of people. You seem to be suggesting that every day a majority of people condone rape. Which suggests it's you living in a fantasy land.

The thing is, there aren't many decent people. And yes, everyday a majority of people do condone rape.

Ah, I see. So the issue isn't that of gender imbalance, popular culture or respect. It's mainly based around your pathological distrust of society and a crippling paranoia.

wolverine66

The women probably got hired because they could pay them less.

Really?

Don't u have equal opportunity laws and award wages that a qualified person has to be paid the same regardless of gender?

Not in the US. Women generally get paid 77 cents to a man's dollar even if they're working the same position, pulling the same hours, outputting the same amount of work, etc. You get the idea. Men get paid more, the end. It's 2014 and yet it hasn't been changed. You'd think we were a developed nation...oh, wait.

I don't want to get political or anything. And I am completely for equal pay for equal work.

However I have seen the "$.77 to a man's dollar" for "the same position," and that's not really true. The gap for "the same position" is far less than $.23 cents. The .77 was a number derived from median income amounts of men and women regardless of their position.

I just wanted to put this out there because there seems to be a prevailing notion that companies can just decide to pay a woman less, and that's not really the case.

you can read more here:
http://www.factcheck.org/2012/06/obamas-77-cent-exaggeration/

I am ready to get bashed now.

Zomoniac

Nooo. Do you hang around girls? Any? At all? Even one? Because most women have witnessed or experienced this some time in their life. Do you know that some abstinence-only schools are trying to push girls into wearing chastity rings, but boys are not required to do so? Do you know that there are actual workshops and books designed to tell women to "keep themselves pure and clean", and not all of them are even religious? A girl has sex at 15 and she's a *kitten*, a guy has sex at 15 and he's cool. The idea that a woman's worth relies on whether or not her hymen is intact has NOT died out.

"Do you know that some abstinence-only schools"

"abstinence-only schools"

........

I have no idea what to even say to that. Can anyone else confirm these actually exist? I'm finding it incredibly hard believing it. It's not a concept I've ever even heard speak of before. It's a concept that is wholly laughable.

reimaka17

The women probably got hired because they could pay them less.

Really?

Don't u have equal opportunity laws and award wages that a qualified person has to be paid the same regardless of gender?

Not in the US. Women generally get paid 77 cents to a man's dollar even if they're working the same position, pulling the same hours, outputting the same amount of work, etc. You get the idea. Men get paid more, the end. It's 2014 and yet it hasn't been changed. You'd think we were a developed nation...oh, wait.

I don't want to get political or anything. And I am completely for equal pay for equal work.

However I have seen the "$.77 to a man's dollar" for "the same position," and that's not really true. The gap for "the same position" is far less than $.23 cents. The .77 was a number derived from median income amounts of men and women regardless of their position.

I just wanted to put this out there because there seems to be a prevailing notion that companies can just decide to pay a woman less, and that's not really the case.

you can read more here:
http://www.factcheck.org/2012/06/obamas-77-cent-exaggeration/

I am ready to get bashed now.

I was going to quit this thread cold-turkey but I'll check out that link first. Cheers.

arwacky

^ right there with you. Where's the abandon thread gif when you need it???

wolverine66

Nooo. Do you hang around girls? Any? At all? Even one? Because most women have witnessed or experienced this some time in their life. Do you know that some abstinence-only schools are trying to push girls into wearing chastity rings, but boys are not required to do so? Do you know that there are actual workshops and books designed to tell women to "keep themselves pure and clean", and not all of them are even religious? A girl has sex at 15 and she's a *kitten*, a guy has sex at 15 and he's cool. The idea that a woman's worth relies on whether or not her hymen is intact has NOT died out.

"Do you know that some abstinence-only schools"

"abstinence-only schools"

........

I have no idea what to even say to that. Can anyone else confirm these actually exist? I'm finding it incredibly hard believing it. It's not a concept I've ever even heard speak of before. It's a concept that is wholly laughable.

I could be wrong, but I think she means "schools who only teach abstinence as sex education" not "schools you can only attend it you remain abstinent."

devil_in_a_blue_dress

Nooo. Do you hang around girls? Any? At all? Even one? Because most women have witnessed or experienced this some time in their life. Do you know that some abstinence-only schools are trying to push girls into wearing chastity rings, but boys are not required to do so? Do you know that there are actual workshops and books designed to tell women to "keep themselves pure and clean", and not all of them are even religious? A girl has sex at 15 and she's a *kitten*, a guy has sex at 15 and he's cool. The idea that a woman's worth relies on whether or not her hymen is intact has NOT died out.

"Do you know that some abstinence-only schools"

"abstinence-only schools"

........

I have no idea what to even say to that. Can anyone else confirm these actually exist? I'm finding it incredibly hard believing it. It's not a concept I've ever even heard speak of before. It's a concept that is wholly laughable.

Oh my...

It is real. There are many schools that don't teach much about sexual health or reproduction -- why do you think there are SO many TOM threads on these boards. You've never heard of "True Love Waits"? I went it a public school in PA they did a virginity pledge around prom time.

ETA: That pledge was for girls only.

SunofaBeach14

So one of my guy friends is starting to hate women because he thinks that everyone treats women so much better than guys. What do you guys think?

I have a couple examples that he gave me..
1. He's been going on job interviews as well, they were about to hire him until a lesser qualified piece of eye candy came into the picture and got the job instead..this happened to him twice.
2. We were at a Spanish deli and we both ordered chicken, rice, and beans. They asked me what part of the chicken I wanted and they didn't ask him. Afterwards he points it out. I told him he should've let them know..he said he was being quiet to prove a point that women are always treated better than men. (Side note a third friend who usually goes to that deli says that they treat you better of you're a woman or speak Spanish so maybe it's based on the place..)

Do you think we as a society are sexist???

Oh yeah, women get treated so much better than men! Let me list the ways:
-rape culture
-most women can't walk outside at night for fear of being raped (1 in every 6 American women have been the victim of attempted/complete rape in her lifetime)
-we can't get drunk at bars/clubs for, again, fear of being raped
-when we are raped we're blamed for leading men on
-we can't dress provocatively 'cause then we're *kitten* deserving of rape
-women still make less than men (77 cents to a man's dollar) in the US. Never mind other countries where it's devastating less
-women in the workforce are generally considered to have "slept their way to the top"
-women in the work place are constantly coddled, underestimated, and dismissed regardless of their ability
-women often lose high ranking positions to men despite being of equal/more qualified
-if a woman has sex before marriage she's ruined, not to mention, y'know, a *kitten*
-if a woman gets pregnant before marriage it's entirely her fault for not closing her legs
-women who'd rather a career than raise children are looked down upon and considered selfish
-women are constantly verbally/emotionally/physically assaulted and we're expected to grin and bear it (street/car calling, wolf whistling, butt slapping, etc)
-women are expected to marry at a certain age otherwise there's something wrong with them
-women are expected to have children otherwise there's something wrong with them
-women can't even serve their country because the level of sexism and misogyny is the army/military is atrocious
-women are expected to be rack thin and dolled up because otherwise we're ugly and plain and lazy
-women can't sleep around, admit to masturbating, or discuss sex without being considered a *kitten*
-women are continuously sexually objectified by everyone, but particularly the entertainment industry
-women who bring these things to light and try to change things (feminists, womanists, etc) are called all number of things, such as: *kitten*, crazies, femi-nazis, radicals, etc. the word "feminist" carries so many negative connotations despite the fact that feminists are the ones who helped us get this far
-abortion and birth control. enough said.
-to a lot of people our worth amounts to how much leg and cleavage we show, and how attractive we are
-the worst insults you could give a man is apparently calling him gay (which, to a lot of people, is synonymous with being girly) or comparing him to a girl
-ETC, ETC, ETC (because I could seriously go on and on and on and on and on)

And that's only in the USA.


Here ya go. So the next time your friend whines about how hard he has it there's a list you can shove at him.


(BTW: I'm fully aware that gender expectations goes both ways. I could easily make a list of the ways men are mistreated and discriminated against because of stupid social constructs, if anyone would like. It probably wouldn't be as long, but it wouldn't be short, either.)

Yes, yes. We get it. Your life is so much harder . . .:sad:

Right. Maybe that lady should get with OP's boyfriend! Stop crying! Learn to laugh. :flowerforyou:

Yup. I'm pretty sure drinking with the two of them would have anyone present ready to open a vein

Mrsallypants

http://imgur.com/XSiuSrh

There is an Office of Women and Girls but not one on Men and Boys, ladies nights in bars, prison sentence disparities between the genders, male only selective service, female only gyms, child custody and divorce, domestic violence programs and shelters centered primarily on female victims, expectations for men to pay on dates, expectations for men to be providers, rape definitions excluding male victims, affirmative action and gender quotas for women, men being seen as sexual predators when around children (e.g. a father takes his daughter to the park and takes pictures of her). e

I don't know if what your friend experienced is because of his gender, but there are issues.

devil_in_a_blue_dress

How does he know that a lesser quilified piece of eye candy got the job over him? Did they send him a letter saying that we decided to give the job to a woman that we would rather look at better than you. Oh, and by the way, she doesn't know anything about this job. i'm not saying this doesn't happen as far as the hiring is concerned. But, you usually don't find out who they hired instead of you.

So..I previously mentioned it but I'll go into a little more detail. He has a friend that's a manager at the location and this manager went out of his way to give my friend a good recommendation and was surprised that they hired this other female. He has access to her CV and she is a recent grad with no experience whereas my friend has a year experience. When my friend mentioned it of course I defended their decision...I told him that even though he has a year of experience over her maybe they were trying to be decent human beings and give her a job and he already has one so he should be happy. But the eye candy theory came up cause he was told by ppl that work there that the new hire is pretty. The manager friend never got a straight forward answer from the people that were hiring for their decision.

I am curious, if another man who had the same qualifications as the women got the job over your friend -- would how the man look play any role in his conclusion? Would he or others blame looks...

rml_16

How does he know that a lesser quilified piece of eye candy got the job over him? Did they send him a letter saying that we decided to give the job to a woman that we would rather look at better than you. Oh, and by the way, she doesn't know anything about this job. i'm not saying this doesn't happen as far as the hiring is concerned. But, you usually don't find out who they hired instead of you.

So..I previously mentioned it but I'll go into a little more detail. He has a friend that's a manager at the location and this manager went out of his way to give my friend a good recommendation and was surprised that they hired this other female. He has access to her CV and she is a recent grad with no experience whereas my friend has a year experience. When my friend mentioned it of course I defended their decision...I told him that even though he has a year of experience over her maybe they were trying to be decent human beings and give her a job and he already has one so he should be happy. But the eye candy theory came up cause he was told by ppl that work there that the new hire is pretty. The manager friend never got a straight forward answer from the people that were hiring for their decision.

I am curious, if another man who had the same qualifications as the women got the job over your friend -- would how the man look play any role in his conclusion? Would he or others blame looks...

A lot more goes into the hiring process than experience. And one year isn't exactly expert-level. It's entirely possible they found her equally qualified and she gave a better interview or something else subjective that has nothing to do with her being pretty.

Less experience doesn't mean less qualified.

arwacky

How does he know that a lesser quilified piece of eye candy got the job over him? Did they send him a letter saying that we decided to give the job to a woman that we would rather look at better than you. Oh, and by the way, she doesn't know anything about this job. i'm not saying this doesn't happen as far as the hiring is concerned. But, you usually don't find out who they hired instead of you.

So..I previously mentioned it but I'll go into a little more detail. He has a friend that's a manager at the location and this manager went out of his way to give my friend a good recommendation and was surprised that they hired this other female. He has access to her CV and she is a recent grad with no experience whereas my friend has a year experience. When my friend mentioned it of course I defended their decision...I told him that even though he has a year of experience over her maybe they were trying to be decent human beings and give her a job and he already has one so he should be happy. But the eye candy theory came up cause he was told by ppl that work there that the new hire is pretty. The manager friend never got a straight forward answer from the people that were hiring for their decision.

I am curious, if another man who had the same qualifications as the women got the job over your friend -- would how the man look play any role in his conclusion? Would he or others blame looks...

I like the way you think...prob not. Thank you for bringing this viewpoint to the table! :flowerforyou:

ETA: my smile didn't work lol