Ketosis/High Fat Diet

HoneydewLou

Personally, I think it's a bad idea. It works short term. Then people crave carbs and snap. If you do it, maybe try carb cycling? At least then you can have those days where you don't feel like tearing your hair out and devouring a loaf of bread.

HoneydewLou

its not sustainable
carbs aren't evil
unless you have a medical reason for eating high carb low fat don't do it

preach.

hasta_la_vista_belly

Who gives a damn what a study says?

If you eat high fat and don't find it satiating, switch to something else.

If you do, and find it incredibly satiating, such as myself, be glad you found something that works.

What's the point of this tit-for-tat? If somebody declares that something works for themselves, no "proof" to the contrary matters.

This. I seriously don't understand why everyone against low-carb/keto that don't understand it go so far to try to disclaim it.

Fat is satiating for me, and for really most if not all Keto'ers. That's what helps make Keto an awesome lifestyle. As opposed to my high carb pre-keto days of energy crashes throughout the day and periods of feeling starving, I've completely eliminated that and I'm losing weight. Sounds like a win to me. And its overall made me feel so much better. So yeah, you people who have never tried it, keep on going on about how bad it is. We Keto'ers have the advantage of having lived both lifestyles and Keto for me is now for life.

Also since it was brought up. Once your Keto adapted, you don't really crave the old carbs anymore. At least for me and I've read that from most other Keto'ers too. So really its a moot point.

HoneydewLou

Who gives a damn what a study says?

If you eat high fat and don't find it satiating, switch to something else.

If you do, and find it incredibly satiating, such as myself, be glad you found something that works.

What's the point of this tit-for-tat? If somebody declares that something works for themselves, no "proof" to the contrary matters.

This. I seriously don't understand why everyone against low-carb/keto that don't understand it go so far to try to disclaim it.

Fat is satiating for me, and for really most if not all Keto'ers. That's what helps make Keto an awesome lifestyle. As opposed to my high carb pre-keto days of energy crashes throughout the day and periods of feeling starving, I've completely eliminated that and I'm losing weight. Sounds like a win to me.

Everyone is different I guess. Personally, I don't find fat satiating AT ALL. I could eat nuts all day and still be hungry and OD on fat basically.

Iwishyouwell

Who gives a damn what a study says?

If you eat high fat and don't find it satiating, switch to something else.

If you do, and find it incredibly satiating, such as myself, be glad you found something that works.

What's the point of this tit-for-tat? If somebody declares that something works for themselves, no "proof" to the contrary matters.

Yeah screw science, go anecdotes!

My body finds fat incredibly satiating.

Let me go and consult it and see if the aforementioned study changes it's mind...

Nope. Still zero f*cks given.

Oh well brah, I tried.

Acg67

Who gives a damn what a study says?

If you eat high fat and don't find it satiating, switch to something else.

If you do, and find it incredibly satiating, such as myself, be glad you found something that works.

What's the point of this tit-for-tat? If somebody declares that something works for themselves, no "proof" to the contrary matters.

This. I seriously don't understand why everyone against low-carb/keto that don't understand it go so far to try to disclaim it.

Fat is satiating for me, and for really most if not all Keto'ers. That's what helps make Keto an awesome lifestyle. As opposed to my high carb pre-keto days of energy crashes throughout the day and periods of feeling starving, I've completely eliminated that and I'm losing weight. Sounds like a win to me.

Sounds like you eliminated all potential confounders to determine that. The point was that someone got on another poster about spreading untruths, then praised a post with untruths since it agreed with his beliefs. One of those was fat being satiating, something you've done nothing to discredit

eric_sg61

Who gives a damn what a study says?

If you eat high fat and don't find it satiating, switch to something else.

If you do, and find it incredibly satiating, such as myself, be glad you found something that works.

What's the point of this tit-for-tat? If somebody declares that something works for themselves, no "proof" to the contrary matters.

This. I seriously don't understand why everyone against low-carb/keto that don't understand it go so far to try to disclaim it.

Fat is satiating for me, and for really most if not all Keto'ers. That's what helps make Keto an awesome lifestyle. As opposed to my high carb pre-keto days of energy crashes throughout the day and periods of feeling starving, I've completely eliminated that and I'm losing weight. Sounds like a win to me.

Everyone is different I guess. Personally, I don't find fat satiating AT ALL. I could eat nuts all day and still be hungry and OD on fat basically.

Same here, put a pound of pasta in front of me and I wouldn't be able to finish it. Put a huge jar of peanut butter in front of me and I will finish it and look for more

Iwishyouwell

Personally, I think it's a bad idea. It works short term. Then people crave carbs and snap. If you do it, maybe try carb cycling? At least then you can have those days where you don't feel like tearing your hair out and devouring a loaf of bread.

Hmm, yet it was sticking to a keto plan that killed my mad bread cravings.

I went from bread cravings every single day to eventually going easily without having bread for years at a time. Yes, years. And this was long after I was no longer dedicated to a keto-only plan.

I love MFP. The longer I stay here and read all the "facts", the more I'm amazed at how much of a special, snowflake, sunflower I must be since I've broken most of these "rules" and have lost 130lbs, and counting, in doing so.

Iwishyouwell

Who gives a damn what a study says?

If you eat high fat and don't find it satiating, switch to something else.

If you do, and find it incredibly satiating, such as myself, be glad you found something that works.

What's the point of this tit-for-tat? If somebody declares that something works for themselves, no "proof" to the contrary matters.

This. I seriously don't understand why everyone against low-carb/keto that don't understand it go so far to try to disclaim it.

Fat is satiating for me, and for really most if not all Keto'ers. That's what helps make Keto an awesome lifestyle. As opposed to my high carb pre-keto days of energy crashes throughout the day and periods of feeling starving, I've completely eliminated that and I'm losing weight. Sounds like a win to me.

Everyone is different I guess. Personally, I don't find fat satiating AT ALL. I could eat nuts all day and still be hungry and OD on fat basically.

Same here, put a pound of pasta in front of me and I wouldn't be able to finish it. Put a huge jar of peanut butter in front of me and I will finish it and look for more

I literally can not OD on peanut butter. It's way too much. I've read of people who can eat a half a jar in one sitting, some even a whole one. I can not even comprehend that.

Put a pound of pasta in front of me and I can go to town well beyond satiation. I grew up overeating high carb foods like air. I didn't discover natural, healthy hunger cues until I discovered HFLC.

Leonidas_meets_Spartacus

I love how a lot of people that know nothing about Keto keep making assumptions. Let's go through a few of them.

"Keto doesn't fix cravings" - Umm...yes it does. First week or 2 on Keto? No, but once adapted it will seriously fix your cravings in a number of ways. You stop binging because you are never starving from the high amount of fat on keto which also means you are satiated longer because of the fat and as such also have more sustained energy levels throughout the day. As you cut sugar and starches out of your diet and become Keto adapted, you no longer crave them either.

"Health benefits are bunk?" Says who? Here are real people all over who have done Keto (including myself) that have felt much better in a variety of ways since switching.

"Its unsustainable" - Please....You don't "need" carbs in your diet. If you decide to do Keto it is perfectly sustainable. Also Keto works as a lifestyle change more than a short term diet. So don't give me crap about it being unsustainable. And like someone else mentioned, what about all the people with epilepsy on Keto? They are sustaining and thriving just fine.

"You don't have to count calories or log food" - The idea behind this is that because of the filling and satiating nature of Keto, you will naturally eat less. While this is true, we often have warped views on portions so I and many other Keto'ers continue to measure, weigh and log food like anyone else. And guess what? Weight lost!

"Its not a magical diet" - of course its not magical. The same principles behind any diet of creating a caloric deficit is what makes you lose weight on Keto. The difference though is that Keto makes it so much easier to enjoy the foods you are eating, not feel like you are starving yourself, and puts your body in a metabolic state that will help you lose fat. Nothing magical about that. IT just makes it easier to maintain that caloric deficit. Just real facts right there.

Edit: And +1 for reddit Keto community. Lot's of good info over there.

Great post, This and other thing on it being restrictive. My non Keto friends drool over my diary because of the range of foods I eat.

OP, you can take a look at my dairy and certainly you won't see steak or bacon in it for more than 5 days a month.

LMAO, you chastise others for posting untrue things then praise a post that has untruths

Untrue? read the thread and show the proof.

"You stop binging because you are never starving from the high amount of fat on keto which also means you are satiated longer because of the fat and as such also have more sustained energy levels throughout the day. "

Numerous studies have shown fat is not satiating, off the top of my head the Holt et al study on satiety would be a good starting point. That one also found evil carby white potatoes to be the most satiating food in their tests.

"he difference though is that Keto makes it so much easier to enjoy the foods you are eating, not feel like you are starving yourself, and puts your body in a metabolic state that will help you lose fat."

Weird how tightly controlled studies that control for both protein and calories, show no significant difference in fat loss between high and low carb diets. So much for putting your body in a metabolic state that helps you lose fat

" Here are real people all over who have done Keto (including myself) that have felt much better in a variety of ways since switching."

Well that certainly settles it, me and some other people feel better therefore it has health benefits. Strong evidence

Numerous studies have shown fat is not satiating, off the top of my head the Holt et al study on satiety would be a good starting point. That one also found evil carby white potatoes to be the most satiating food in their tests.

" Quote them, and also what was their macros in the studies? The studies, numerous have shown that low carb high fat diets had more weight loss and satisfaction. However, once people went back to normal diets, most of them gained it back. In short term, low carb diets had significant advantage but over long term once the people were no longer controlled there was no significant advantage.

Weird how tightly controlled studies that control for both protein and calories, show no significant difference in fat loss between high and low carb diets. So much for putting your body in a metabolic state that helps you lose fat
Again not every study is Keto just because its low carb. Show me the macros of these studies. The keto is helpful because it stabilizes insulin levels. Lot of people who have metabolic syndrome go through insulin highs and lows, at the low point is when hunger starts. Its simple science.

The protein content of the 2 experimental diets was comparable—≈30% energy—but the KLC diet was high in fat (60% of energy; saturated fat, 21% of energy) and very low in carbohydrates (beginning with ≈5% of energy), whereas the NLC diet was low in fat (30% of energy; saturated fat, 9% of energy) and carbohydrates (≈40% energy).

Moreover, the reduction in fat mass over the 6-week trial was not significantly affected by diet (5.5 and 3.4 kg for NLC and KLC dieters, respectively; P = 0.111).

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/83/5/1055.full

With 30% protein and 10% carbs, you won't be in ketosis, unless you are super human or starving

"The LC meals contained 38.8 g (660 kJ) protein, 39.2 g (1450 kJ) fat, 5.5 g (88 kJ) carbohydrate, and 2198 kJ energy. The MC meals contained 38.8 g (660 kJ) protein, 20.8 g (770 kJ) fat, 48.0 g (767 kJ) carbohydrate, and 2197 kJ energy. The menu plan is given in Appendix A⇓, which details the rotating menu with up to 9 meal options for each main meal and 3 sweet and 3 savory snack options. Additional meals were made up on request throughout the day. More information on the formulation of the meals is available by request from one of us (AMJ)."

This study is no way realistic to what a 25-65 year old would eat. They were on close to 600 K cal diet which is ridiculously low. The subjects were most likely induce in to ketosis through starvation. The beta-hydroxybutyrate level of 1.9milli molars at induction is hard to reach with nutritional ketosis. It sure was starving induced ketosis. The Harvard study, if you access to the library journals and others talk about the studies where the subjects were given 1200 cal diets. If you are in university, you can access it. How do I know this? I do a deeper research than reading the headlines.
. An easier experiment would be do a pizza test. Eat a pizza, the whole one with crust ( more cal right?), Next day under similar conditions, scrape the cheese, meat, fat and dump the crust. You will know which is more satisfying.

parkscs

Holt is one data point but I don't know that it provides the answer to this question. For one, Holt didn't even test a lot of foods that you would eat on a low carb diet. Of the handful they did test (fish, beef, eggs), they all ranked on the high-end of the scale when it comes to satiety. Taking that a step further, the least satiating foods by Holt's own study are foods you would not be eating on a low carb diet. So, once you get past potatoes, I don't think Holt actually helps your argument. Quite the opposite actually.

Looking into it a bit deeper, you can look at Holt's own comment:

"Fatty foods are not satisfying, even though people expected them to be," says Holt. "We think the reason is that fat is seen by the body as a fuel which should be used only in emergencies—it stores it in the cells instead of breaking it down for immediate use. Because it doesn't recognize the fat as energy for immediate use, the body does not tell the brain to cut hunger signals, so we go on wanting more. Carbohydrates are the opposite—they raise blood glucose so the body knows it has gotten enough fuel."

And it begs the question how the reaction would be different, if different at all, for someone who has been eating low carb foods for a sustained period of time and is in a state of dietary ketosis.

Either way, there's plenty of anecdotal evidence of people feeling quite satiated on a low carb diet. Whether it's the moderate protein intake and/or the fat and/or the lack of carbs that creates this feeling of satiety, it's hard to say. But what's clear is that Holt's findings don't give us the answer.

Leonidas_meets_Spartacus

Who gives a damn what a study says?

If you eat high fat and don't find it satiating, switch to something else.

If you do, and find it incredibly satiating, such as myself, be glad you found something that works.

What's the point of this tit-for-tat? If somebody declares that something works for themselves, no "proof" to the contrary matters.

This. I seriously don't understand why everyone against low-carb/keto that don't understand it go so far to try to disclaim it.

Fat is satiating for me, and for really most if not all Keto'ers. That's what helps make Keto an awesome lifestyle. As opposed to my high carb pre-keto days of energy crashes throughout the day and periods of feeling starving, I've completely eliminated that and I'm losing weight. Sounds like a win to me.

Sounds like you eliminated all potential confounders to determine that. The point was that someone got on another poster about spreading untruths, then praised a post with untruths since it agreed with his beliefs. One of those was fat being satiating, something you've done nothing to discredit

You quoted a study high in protein and very low in Cals ( around 600) which sounds very credible. LMAO. I can go write a paper on whats wrong with the study. r. Ketosis through starvation is dangerous if done long term. The people here talk about nutritional ketosis, which is 80% fat, 15% protein and 5% cals through carbs. There is no way some one can go into nutritional ketosis with 30% protein cals.

Acg67

With 30% protein and 10% carbs, you won't be in ketosis, unless you are super human or starving

"The LC meals contained 38.8 g (660 kJ) protein, 39.2 g (1450 kJ) fat, 5.5 g (88 kJ) carbohydrate, and 2198 kJ energy. The MC meals contained 38.8 g (660 kJ) protein, 20.8 g (770 kJ) fat, 48.0 g (767 kJ) carbohydrate, and 2197 kJ energy. The menu plan is given in Appendix A⇓, which details the rotating menu with up to 9 meal options for each main meal and 3 sweet and 3 savory snack options. Additional meals were made up on request throughout the day. More information on the formulation of the meals is available by request from one of us (AMJ)."

This study is no way realistic to what a 25-65 year old would eat. They were on close to 600 K cal diet which is ridiculously low. The subjects were most likely induce in to ketosis through starvation. The beta-hydroxybutyrate level of 1.9milli molars at induction is hard to reach with nutritional ketosis. It sure was starving induced ketosis. The Harvard study, if you access to the library journals and others talk about the studies where the subjects were given 1200 cal diets. If you are in university, you can access it. How do I know this? I do a deeper research than reading the headlines.
. An easier experiment would be do a pizza test. Eat a pizza, the whole one with crust ( more cal right?), Next day under similar conditions, scrape the cheese, meat, fat and dump the crust. You will know which is more satisfying.

The pizza would be more satisfying

Link me to the Harvard study you're referencing? Believe it not I do a little research as well

Acg67

Holt is one data point but I don't know that it provides the answer to this question. For one, Holt didn't even test a lot of foods that you would eat on a low carb diet. Of the handful they did test (fish, beef, eggs), they all ranked on the high-end of the scale when it comes to satiety. Taking that a step further, the least satiating foods by Holt's own study are foods you would not be eating on a low carb diet. So, once you get past potatoes, I don't think Holt actually helps your argument. Quite the opposite actually.

Looking into it a bit deeper, you can look at Holt's own comment:

"Fatty foods are not satisfying, even though people expected them to be," says Holt. "We think the reason is that fat is seen by the body as a fuel which should be used only in emergencies—it stores it in the cells instead of breaking it down for immediate use. Because it doesn't recognize the fat as energy for immediate use, the body does not tell the brain to cut hunger signals, so we go on wanting more. Carbohydrates are the opposite—they raise blood glucose so the body knows it has gotten enough fuel."

And it begs the question how the reaction would be different, if different at all, for someone who has been eating low carb foods for a sustained period of time and is in a state of dietary ketosis.

Either way, there's plenty of anecdotal evidence of people feeling quite satiated on a low carb diet. Whether it's the moderate protein intake and/or the fat and/or the lack of carbs that creates this feeling of satiety, it's hard to say. But what's clear is that Holt's findings don't give us the answer.

There are plenty of references towards the end of the discussion on ad lib high fat vs carb studies. If it was indeed the fat that is satiating, it doesn't matter if it's a food that a low carber would eat or not, since supposedly the fat is what is satiating.

If I had to guess the protein in low carb and keto diets has more to due with satiety than the fat

Booksandbeaches

OP, I sent you a PM. Keto is working really well for me.

Akimajuktuq

I've had success on it. Slow and steady, but success. 26lbs since August.

Contrary to popular belief, it is sustainable. Some people can't deal with not eating lots of bread and other carb heavy foods, and if that's you, then you probably won't like it. For me, I'm a carnivore who also enjoys fresh vegetables so it works well for my eating style.

^this.

It's sustainable, healthy, and even advisable to prevent and/or treat many health problems related to metabolism (which is everything from obesity, diabetes, through depression... as in most of our current common health problems!).

For me it's a necessity; for others not so much. One size does not always fit all, especially for those of us who starved ourselves for too many years thinking that all that mattered was eating as few calories as possible.

Wicibeth

I lost about 40 pounds on Keto over two years with no exercise. I've gained it back on now cause I'm not on Keto anymore, for the only reason that I don't know how to successfully workout and Keto at the same time. Been researching refeeds etc, but it never worked for me. :P

parkscs

There are plenty of references towards the end of the discussion on ad lib high fat vs carb studies. If it was indeed the fat that is satiating, it doesn't matter if it's a food that a low carber would eat or not, since supposedly the fat is what is satiating.

If I had to guess the protein in low carb and keto diets has more to due with satiety than the fat

That'd be my guess too but I think the lack of carbs plays a role as well (especially since a lot of LCHF dieters almost seem afraid of protein in my experience). Say I went in the break room now and had a donut, giving me ~200 calories and odds are I'll be hungry again in an hour. Avoiding foods like this in favor of foods with fat/protein helps with satiety, even if it's not the fat directly causing the effect. In other words, you'll be more satiated overall because you have to avoid the least satiating foods on a LCHF diet.

Moira945

I just checked your diary..I see al ot of "quick added calories" and cup, tablespoon measures etc..

If you want to lose last ten pounds you are going to need to tighten up your eating and start logging EVERYTHING that you eat and accounting for it.

I would also suggest that you get a food scale and weight out all your portions...

whether you do Keto, low carb, high carb, whatever..if you are not consistent and accurate with your logging then it will not work ..

Keto, low carb, etc are not some magical fat burning solution ..at the end of the day they are just tools to create a calorie deficit and if you are not accurately logging then they will not work ..

I would suggest tightening up logging first...

This week is literally the first time since October 1st that I've ever used quick add calories. My logging is usually 100% accurate and I DO WEIGH EVERYTHING. Take a look before my week of binging. That is more representative of how I usually log.

I don't use measuring cups.

Quick adds maybe I went back into February and January and saw the following:

Days not logged
Days that were double your goal over 3500 calories at least 2x and I just picked random days
Things not weighed but measured with spoons...ie almond butter
A lot of cracker barrel stuff that isn't weighed...biscuits, chicken, brocolli etc
8 egg whites @ 128 calories it's actually more than that...136 per actual counts per USDA and chicken breast 112g @ 150 calories? 145g has 250cal so 112g has 193 calories...
quick adds in January

and you have gone from 1200 to 1400 to 1600 and back and forth...in less than 2.5months.

Accurate logging isn't just about weighing 90% of the time and logging everything you can choose entries that are wrong...

as mentioned instead of trying a new type of eating tighten up your logging...

Do you not understand that if you know how much 1 tablespoon weighs that it's ok to log in tablespoons. MY GOD! One tablespoon of almond butter is 16g. Therefore if I weigh 16g of almond butter and log 1 tablespoon it is the SAME. I would think that someone that has been here that long would understand such a basic idea.

Thank you for all your tips but if you look at the TITLE OF THE POST I was curious about ketogenic diets because of cravings I have been having.

You seem awfully defensive of your logging habits, given that the people on this thread are just trying to help you.

Unless you have already made up your mind to do this ketosis thing and don't actually want to hear a differing opinion...which is your right.

I can't speak for whether or not a ketogenic diet will be good for you, but I can say that it is absolutely terrible if you plan on doing any sort of endurance sport (distance running, cycling, etc). I am a distance runner and have seen multiple people fall apart when they try this lifestyle while doing endurance sports. Just something to keep in mind if you do it.

Leonidas_meets_Spartacus

With 30% protein and 10% carbs, you won't be in ketosis, unless you are super human or starving

"The LC meals contained 38.8 g (660 kJ) protein, 39.2 g (1450 kJ) fat, 5.5 g (88 kJ) carbohydrate, and 2198 kJ energy. The MC meals contained 38.8 g (660 kJ) protein, 20.8 g (770 kJ) fat, 48.0 g (767 kJ) carbohydrate, and 2197 kJ energy. The menu plan is given in Appendix A⇓, which details the rotating menu with up to 9 meal options for each main meal and 3 sweet and 3 savory snack options. Additional meals were made up on request throughout the day. More information on the formulation of the meals is available by request from one of us (AMJ)."

This study is no way realistic to what a 25-65 year old would eat. They were on close to 600 K cal diet which is ridiculously low. The subjects were most likely induce in to ketosis through starvation. The beta-hydroxybutyrate level of 1.9milli molars at induction is hard to reach with nutritional ketosis. It sure was starving induced ketosis. The Harvard study, if you access to the library journals and others talk about the studies where the subjects were given 1200 cal diets. If you are in university, you can access it. How do I know this? I do a deeper research than reading the headlines.
. An easier experiment would be do a pizza test. Eat a pizza, the whole one with crust ( more cal right?), Next day under similar conditions, scrape the cheese, meat, fat and dump the crust. You will know which is more satisfying.

The pizza would be more satisfying

Link me to the Harvard study you're referencing? Believe it not I do a little research as well

You are lucky with your genes if you passed pizza test. I did the pizza test multiple times while poking my finger for blood readings. I felt much satisfied with out the crust. The medical explanation was very simple, my glucose level (measured after 10 min) spiked up when I ate the whole pizza, after about 2 hrs, I took another reading when I started feeling hungry. The reading showed my blood glucose level slightly lower than my normal. This trough is what can cause hunger, binging etc. With out crust, my insulin levels were pretty fat. I am not sure if you are in a university or have access to medical journals but do this search for full paper. Some of the papers/studies you can search for are:

New ENgland Journal of Medicine: Sacks FM, Bray GA, Carey VJ, et al. Comparison of weight-loss diets with different compositions of fat, protein, and carbohydrates.

Halton TL, Willett WC, Liu S, et al. Low-carbohydrate-diet score and the risk of coronary heart disease in women.

Foster GD, Wyatt HR, Hill JO, et al. A randomized trial of a low-carbohydrate diet for obesity.

Read the whole paper, I like to enjoy discussions which are thorough, not like your diet is better than mine. Every study has to go through scrutiny to be believed.