Ketosis/High Fat Diet

eraser51

does someone do ketogenic AND count calories?

how did you measure/calculated your BMR/RMR?

parkscs

does someone do ketogenic AND count calories?

how did you measure/calculated your BMR/RMR?

The same way you calculate TDEE for a non-keto diet. There are a couple of "calculators" you can use on the /r/keto and /r/ketogains subreddits that will take in your activity level, approximate body fat percentage, etc. and give you macros/calories to use. I'd highly recommend them if you're considering going this route.

yarwell

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/75/4/767/T1.expansion.html

75g of casein in one go gives an insulin increase, presumably offset by glucagon as the blood glucose stays constant.

100ml of cream (same calories) had no effect.

Leonidas_meets_Spartacus

Which is why Ketogenic diets have 15% protein from cals. If I go over the protein levels, usually over 100-110gm, I get kicked out of ketosis. If you are having 30% of cals from protein (like in the above study) there is no way you can be in ketosis unless starving. Insulin will raise with high protein content, not necessarily as high as carbs. But might be enough to kick you out of ketosis.

Sorry but I don't think that's right at all. Not all ketogenic diets are "15% cals from protein". Your protein requirements are determined by your lean body mass and the percentage of your calories that come from protein are determined by both your lean body mass and your caloric intake/deficit. A blanket statement that "15% is right for everyone" is nonsense.

You're right, technically, but you're also missing the point -- protein is insulinogenic, therefore too much will knock you out of ketosis. 15% is an average number for ketogenic diets. For some people it will be higher, for others, it will be lower (from what I've seen, it generally works out to the ballpark of 100g). A ketogenic diet is enough protein to support muscle retention/building, without eating so much that you drop out of ketosis.

My point was that "so much [protein] that you drop out of ketosis" is perhaps more than you think and certainly more than is being suggested in this thread, at least for some people. The notion that you cannot be in a state of ketosis at 30% protein without starving simply wrong.

DO you measure ketosis using blood strips? How many milli molars is considered ketosis? I was referring to a study which said 30% protein 5% carbs with a 600 cal diet. 600 cal diet is starving to me. When did I say 2000 cal diet is starving. I would love to see if you are doing a 30% protein diet and are still in ketosis as measured by blood strips.

Leonidas_meets_Spartacus

does someone do ketogenic AND count calories?

how did you measure/calculated your BMR/RMR?

Initially you don't to get in ketosis. The reason I went in to ketosis is to train body to eat till your full and stop when you are not. I count carbs not necessarily calories, but it doesn't mean I eat unlimited calories.

parkscs

You said you cannot be in ketosis eating 30% of calories from protein unless you're starving and another poster agreeing with you said you can do that around 2000 calories. That says to me he's suggesting 2000 calories is "starving" but that's sort of silly in my book. In any event, 2000 calories is not starving and many people can eat quite a bit of protein on a LCHF diet without worry. You may be the odd man out and only able to eat 10% of your calories from protein, but frequent some subreddits like /r/ketogains and you'll find plenty of people who do just fine eating the recommended protein intake for lifters (0.8-1.2g/lb of LBM).

As for testing for ketosis with stix/strips, why are you wasting your time and money? There's no metabolic advantage to being in a "stronger" state of ketosis and for that matter a stronger reading can simply be a matter of being dehydrated. Just my opinion, but your focus is in the wrong place if you're not tracking calories but instead peeing on sticks and testing your blood for a state of ketosis. It's really as simple as hitting your macros (with a low carb macro, in this case) and keeping your calories in-line.

As for eating until you're full, that sort of shooting from the hip approach works for some people but it's hardly the most accurate way to track your diet nor is it really the recommended approach. If you want to be precise, it's good to know whether you're overeating or undereating, are you hitting your protein macro, and so on.

Dragonwolf

He also never said "15% is right for everyone." Just like 40/30/30 isn't right for everyone, veg*nism isn't right for everyone, and so on. 15% is a general guideline based on averages. The exact amount of protein and carbs to cross the line between ketosis and not is going to be slightly different from person to person. I don't think anyone on this thread has said otherwise.

That said, 30% protein is generally only feasible to do while still in ketosis if you're eating about 2000 calories or less. If you're a size and/or activity level where 2000 is a realistic calorie requirement, then 30% is still on the upper end of what you'd need even by the LBM calculation (about 150g at 2000 calories).

So you're saying that 2000 calories is the equivalent of starving? Wow, I never knew.

Now you're just building strawmen. I suggest you re-read what I said.

parkscs

He said it's impossible to be in ketosis at 30% protein unless you're starving.

You agreed with him and said that 2000 calories and 30% protein is achievable.

My takeaway is either you're not really agreeing with him or you're saying 2000 calories is basically starving yourself. I doubt you're saying the latter, but I'd suggest you re-read what he said since you seem to talk like you're agreeing with him when I doubt you really are. Here's the comment I was referring to:

If you are having 30% of cals from protein (like in the above study) there is no way you can be in ketosis unless starving.

Dragonwolf

He said it's impossible to be in ketosis at 30% protein unless you're starving.

You agreed with him and said that 2000 calories and 30% protein is achievable.

My takeaway is either you're not really agreeing with him or you're saying 2000 calories is basically starving yourself. I doubt you're saying the latter, but I'd suggest you re-read what he said since you seem to talk like you're agreeing with him when I doubt you really are. Here's the comment I was referring to:

If you are having 30% of cals from protein (like in the above study) there is no way you can be in ketosis unless starving.

I said that 2000 calories is the upper end of where 30% protein is an amount that may or may not knock you out of ketosis (at the point of 1500-2000 calories, whether 30% does or doesn't knock you out depends more on how much carb and fat you're eating and how sensitive you are to the insulinogenic effects of carbs and protein).

I also said that if you're at the level where 2000 calories is actually sufficient for you, then you probably don't need that much protein, anyway (30% protein = 155g at 2000 calories), because you're at least one of:

a) small (less lean mass, so 1g/lb will more likely result in a number quite a bit less than 155g)
b) sedentary (less need for as much protein, therefore more likely to use the .6-.8g/lb value, again, less than 155g)

If you're not at least one of the above, then it's very likely that you are not eating enough, especially if you're at least male (for which the recommend intake is 2000+) and even more so if you're active. Are you "starving"? That depends more on context. If you're not active and only have a TDEE of 2500, then 2000 isn't starving, per se (but again, we're back to the above cases, where 155g of protein is more than calculations deem necessary, regardless of keto goals). If you're an active person who's TDEE is 4000, then you very much are starving yourself, because you aren't properly fueling your energy needs and relying on fat stores for half of your caloric needs (which, yes, will force your body into a starvation-induced state of ketosis, since ketone production is a byproduct of burning fat).

parkscs

So we're in agreement that it's nonsense that ketosis cannot occur at 30% calories from protein without starving oneself.

eraser51

is it even possible to starve myself?
I tought that starvation mode is a myth?
what is recommended for a sedentary male? I get all kind of BMRs depending on the calculator but hit a stall on 2500

Leonidas_meets_Spartacus

So we're in agreement that it's nonsense that ketosis cannot occur at 30% calories from protein without starving oneself.

A person is in ketosis if their blood ketone levels are at least 0.5 milli molars with more stringent limit by some at 1.0 milli molar. Urine strips can still show pink even when you are kicked out of ketosis. Its not nonsense, I want to see if you are in ketosis at 30% protein level. From all the studies I read including the findings or Dr's who have treated many patients its very hard to be in ketosis at that number. It might be possible to still be in ketosis with a high protein or carb number after a long exercises like running a marathon, 2-4 hr bike rides.
I would love to see your numbers. Just post them and debunk it. Talk is cheap.

Leonidas_meets_Spartacus

You said you cannot be in ketosis eating 30% of calories from protein unless you're starving and another poster agreeing with you said you can do that around 2000 calories. That says to me he's suggesting 2000 calories is "starving" but that's sort of silly in my book. In any event, 2000 calories is not starving and many people can eat quite a bit of protein on a LCHF diet without worry. You may be the odd man out and only able to eat 10% of your calories from protein, but frequent some subreddits like /r/ketogains and you'll find plenty of people who do just fine eating the recommended protein intake for lifters (0.8-1.2g/lb of LBM).

As for testing for ketosis with stix/strips, why are you wasting your time and money? There's no metabolic advantage to being in a "stronger" state of ketosis and for that matter a stronger reading can simply be a matter of being dehydrated. Just my opinion, but your focus is in the wrong place if you're not tracking calories but instead peeing on sticks and testing your blood for a state of ketosis. It's really as simple as hitting your macros (with a low carb macro, in this case) and keeping your calories in-line.

As for eating until you're full, that sort of shooting from the hip approach works for some people but it's hardly the most accurate way to track your diet nor is it really the recommended approach. If you want to be precise, it's good to know whether you're overeating or undereating, are you hitting your protein macro, and so on.

Let me make it simple for you. Keto urine strips are useless. My wife who doesn't follow Ketogenic diet tests pink on those strips. If you don't register at least 1 milli molar on blood strip you are not in ketosis. Even going by the least available standards, less than 0.5 milli molars is not considered ketosis. I am not wasting money, because I know when I am in ketosis or not and can tweak my diet accordingly. I want to increase my fat burning to higher % levels of Vo2 max, so I can run marathons with just the water and never bonk or use lactic acid for energy. Heck, I am half way there already, just ran a half marathon(finished 3rd) last week with just water and no carb gels or anything.

yarwell

There's no metabolic advantage to being in a "stronger" state of ketosis

the uptake of ketones by the brain is greater at higher concentrations (up to a point) so it's at least possible that there's an advantage in terms of fuel availability to have a higher concentration of ketone fuel in the blood.

It may also allow lower blood sugars without hypoglycaemic symptoms, as seen in keto-adapted subjects.

parkscs

So you're telling me that someone who eats very low carbs but 30% protein won't be in a state of ketosis? Given that ketosis is a state where your body burns fat for energy, what is their body burning but for fat when it comes to energy? Certainly not carbs. There's not enough protein there to add up to a lot of calories, and more importantly, if that protein is calculated as the amount of body needs based on their body mass and their activity, their body is going to use that protein to help repair and build up their lean body mass, not break it all down into glucose and burn it for carbs . So what's left? Fat. I'll add that even if their body turns some of that protein into glucose, they'll only struggle to maintain a state of ketosis if that glucose puts them over their carb threshold. I have not seen any calculators or experts recommend not to get adequate protein when following this sort of diet.

But, feel free to continue neglecting your protein and pricking your fingers as much as you want. Everyone seems to have their own opinion on what is a ketogenic diet and who am I to argue with what you.

Dragonwolf

So you're telling me that someone who eats very low carbs but 30% protein won't be in a state of ketosis? Given that ketosis is a state where your body burns fat for energy, what is their body burning but for fat when it comes to energy? Certainly not carbs. There's not enough protein there to add up to a lot of calories, and more importantly, if that protein is calculated as the amount of body needs based on their body mass and their activity, their body is going to use that protein to help repair and build up their lean body mass, not break it all down into glucose and burn it for carbs . So what's left? Fat. I'll add that even if their body turns some of that protein into glucose, they'll only struggle to maintain a state of ketosis if that glucose puts them over their carb threshold. I have not seen any calculators or experts recommend not to get adequate protein when following this sort of diet.

But, feel free to continue neglecting your protein and pricking your fingers as much as you want. Everyone seems to have their own opinion on what is a ketogenic diet and who am I to argue with what you.

Protein is insulinogenic. That means it triggers an insulin response, even in the absence of carbs.

Ketones are modulated by insulin. Therefore, the more insulin circulating in the body, the fewer ketones. This is why it's not possible for someone who is not Type 1 Diabetic to end up in a state of ketoacidosis.

15% protein can be adequate protein, depending on your calorie needs. And I'd argue that using percentages is a flawed way, when protein needs are calculated in grams. Therefore, if you're expending 4500 calories, but only need 120g of protein, then you're actually at less than 10% (see my previous link to Dr. Attia's blog).

albertabeefy

Protein is insulinogenic. That means it triggers an insulin response, even in the absence of carbs.

Yes, and that insulin is used to move the amino-acids from the protein into your muscles. Insulin is a highly-anabolic hormone, second only to testosterone.

Ketones are modulated by insulin. Therefore, the more insulin circulating in the body, the fewer ketones. This is why it's not possible for someone who is not Type 1 Diabetic to end up in a state of ketoacidosis.

It is simply untrue that someone who's not Type I cannot be in ketoacidosis. It presents in the ER quite regularly in Type II diabetics (most-often in african-americans and those of hispanic descent), often as their FIRST diabetic symptom, and it's becoming increasingly common. Perhaps you should refresh your knowledge on the subject.

Heck, there's even reports in the NEJM of NON-diabetic patients presenting with ketoacidosis - but it's an incredibly rare event in someone that had a genetic pre-dispostion toward it which was exacerbated by a vlckd without a medical need.

albertabeefy

A person is in ketosis if their blood ketone levels are at least 0.5 milli molars with more stringent limit by some at 1.0 milli molar. Urine strips can still show pink even when you are kicked out of ketosis. Its not nonsense, I want to see if you are in ketosis at 30% protein level. From all the studies I read including the findings or Dr's who have treated many patients its very hard to be in ketosis at that number. It might be possible to still be in ketosis with a high protein or carb number after a long exercises like running a marathon, 2-4 hr bike rides.
I would love to see your numbers. Just post them and debunk it. Talk is cheap.

It is certainly possible to be in ketosis at 30% of intake from protein, though rare and fully dependent upon exercise quantity and type.

Because strength athletes utilize more protein than endurance athletes (who use more than those that don't exercise, obviously), they are the most likely to be able to maintain ketosis at that level - ESPECIALLY if glycogen stores are fully depleted on a regular basis. This is because glucose created from gluconeogenesis will go to glycogen stores first, thus keeping serum glucose levels low.

yarwell

So you're telling me that someone who eats very low carbs but 30% protein won't be in a state of ketosis? Given that ketosis is a state where your body burns fat for energy, what is their body burning but for fat when it comes to energy?

Ketosis is not "a state where your body burns fat for energy" because practically everyone does that all the time - google "substrate utilization" etc

Ketosis is specifically an elevated level of ketones in the blood stream - ketonemia or hyperketonemia.

Personally I eat less than 30g of carbs per day and can have blood ketone levels well below 0.5 mmol/l which is a level that can be reached by people on a high carb diet during the course of exercise etc.

neicypoos

I agree, I love this way of eating!