Ketosis/High Fat Diet

Akimajuktuq

if you are having "hunger issues" at 1200 a day then I would assume that you would still have said hunger issues on keto, low carb, etc....

So when you were low carb are you saying you were still hungry all the time?

Please note I said "I assume"

never done low carb and have no use for it.

hmmm, and I see frequent posts from you opposing this eating plan..... You've never done it and never had a use for it, which is totally understandable; but how is it that you have such opposition to something you have never needed nor tried?

I really don't understand how some people here think they know it all for everyone and with no personal experience. It's very annoying.

DirrtyH

I've recently started having binges in the late evenings. I've read about Ketogenic diets having a satiating effect... and now I'm just curious.

Yep, its true. Since going Keto in January, I never have times where I am uncontrollably starving. Kinda hungry? Sure. Starving to the point that I want to eat all the things? No. Never.

I don't eat a keto diet and I'm never uncontrollably starving either. How do you explain this?

Iwishyouwell

if you are having "hunger issues" at 1200 a day then I would assume that you would still have said hunger issues on keto, low carb, etc....

So when you were low carb are you saying you were still hungry all the time?

Please note I said "I assume"

never done low carb and have no use for it.

hmmm, and I see frequent posts from you opposing this eating plan..... You've never done it and never had a use for it, which is totally understandable; but how is it that you have such opposition to something you have never needed nor tried?

I really don't understand how some people here think they know it all for everyone and with no personal experience. It's very annoying.

That's pretty common around here.

Lots of people who are vehement, damn near rabid, about eating plans that they are totally ignorant to.

It's pathological.

Leonidas_meets_Spartacus

I've recently started having binges in the late evenings. I've read about Ketogenic diets having a satiating effect... and now I'm just curious.

Yep, its true. Since going Keto in January, I never have times where I am uncontrollably starving. Kinda hungry? Sure. Starving to the point that I want to eat all the things? No. Never.

I don't eat a keto diet and I'm never uncontrollably starving either. How do you explain this?

Ever heard of an hormone called insulin. Be thankful, you don't have to go through those spikes. Every person is different, one way to handle uncontrollable starving to keep the insulin levels flat. Which is what Keto diets do.

Acg67

With 30% protein and 10% carbs, you won't be in ketosis, unless you are super human or starving

"The LC meals contained 38.8 g (660 kJ) protein, 39.2 g (1450 kJ) fat, 5.5 g (88 kJ) carbohydrate, and 2198 kJ energy. The MC meals contained 38.8 g (660 kJ) protein, 20.8 g (770 kJ) fat, 48.0 g (767 kJ) carbohydrate, and 2197 kJ energy. The menu plan is given in Appendix A⇓, which details the rotating menu with up to 9 meal options for each main meal and 3 sweet and 3 savory snack options. Additional meals were made up on request throughout the day. More information on the formulation of the meals is available by request from one of us (AMJ)."

This study is no way realistic to what a 25-65 year old would eat. They were on close to 600 K cal diet which is ridiculously low. The subjects were most likely induce in to ketosis through starvation. The beta-hydroxybutyrate level of 1.9milli molars at induction is hard to reach with nutritional ketosis. It sure was starving induced ketosis. The Harvard study, if you access to the library journals and others talk about the studies where the subjects were given 1200 cal diets. If you are in university, you can access it. How do I know this? I do a deeper research than reading the headlines.
. An easier experiment would be do a pizza test. Eat a pizza, the whole one with crust ( more cal right?), Next day under similar conditions, scrape the cheese, meat, fat and dump the crust. You will know which is more satisfying.

The pizza would be more satisfying

Link me to the Harvard study you're referencing? Believe it not I do a little research as well

You are lucky with your genes if you passed pizza test. I did the pizza test multiple times while poking my finger for blood readings. I felt much satisfied with out the crust. The medical explanation was very simple, my glucose level (measured after 10 min) spiked up when I ate the whole pizza, after about 2 hrs, I took another reading when I started feeling hungry. The reading showed my blood glucose level slightly lower than my normal. This trough is what can cause hunger, binging etc. With out crust, my insulin levels were pretty fat. I am not sure if you are in a university or have access to medical journals but do this search for full paper. Some of the papers/studies you can search for are:

New ENgland Journal of Medicine: Sacks FM, Bray GA, Carey VJ, et al. Comparison of weight-loss diets with different compositions of fat, protein, and carbohydrates.

Halton TL, Willett WC, Liu S, et al. Low-carbohydrate-diet score and the risk of coronary heart disease in women.

Foster GD, Wyatt HR, Hill JO, et al. A randomized trial of a low-carbohydrate diet for obesity.

Read the whole paper, I like to enjoy discussions which are thorough, not like your diet is better than mine. Every study has to go through scrutiny to be believed.

First one doesn't deal with keto diets, has self reported intake and no measurements for body comp other than waist circumference and weight?

2nd one is another self reported intake epidemiological study. How accurate is self reported intake? Hint: There was a recent paper regarding the NHANES self reported data published not too long ago

3rd one again deals with weight, not body comp. So the initial significantly greater weight loss for low carb doesn't mean all that much

Acg67

I've recently started having binges in the late evenings. I've read about Ketogenic diets having a satiating effect... and now I'm just curious.

Yep, its true. Since going Keto in January, I never have times where I am uncontrollably starving. Kinda hungry? Sure. Starving to the point that I want to eat all the things? No. Never.

I don't eat a keto diet and I'm never uncontrollably starving either. How do you explain this?

Ever heard of an hormone called insulin. Be thankful, you don't have to go through those spikes. Every person is different, one way to handle uncontrollable starving to keep the insulin levels flat. Which is what Keto diets do.

Protein is also highly insulinogenic...

Leonidas_meets_Spartacus

I've recently started having binges in the late evenings. I've read about Ketogenic diets having a satiating effect... and now I'm just curious.

Yep, its true. Since going Keto in January, I never have times where I am uncontrollably starving. Kinda hungry? Sure. Starving to the point that I want to eat all the things? No. Never.

I don't eat a keto diet and I'm never uncontrollably starving either. How do you explain this?

Ever heard of an hormone called insulin. Be thankful, you don't have to go through those spikes. Every person is different, one way to handle uncontrollable starving to keep the insulin levels flat. Which is what Keto diets do.

Protein is also highly insulinogenic...

Which is why Ketogenic diets have 15% protein from cals. If I go over the protein levels, usually over 100-110gm, I get kicked out of ketosis. If you are having 30% of cals from protein (like in the above study) there is no way you can be in ketosis unless starving. Insulin will raise with high protein content, not necessarily as high as carbs. But might be enough to kick you out of ketosis.

ndj1979

if you are having "hunger issues" at 1200 a day then I would assume that you would still have said hunger issues on keto, low carb, etc....

So when you were low carb are you saying you were still hungry all the time?

Please note I said "I assume"

never done low carb and have no use for it.

hmmm, and I see frequent posts from you opposing this eating plan..... You've never done it and never had a use for it, which is totally understandable; but how is it that you have such opposition to something you have never needed nor tried?

I really don't understand how some people here think they know it all for everyone and with no personal experience. It's very annoying.

My only advise to people is that restricting a whole food group "carbs" because one believes they are "bad" is not the best course..when a simple calorie deficit will allow one to lose weight...baring any medical condition that would make one sensitive to carbs...

ETA - I questioned the OP as to why she wanted to start this diet and never opposed her doing it. I simply said that inaccurate logging is the cause of her issue, and if she did not correct the inaccurate logging, then whatever diet she chooses is going to end in failure.

parkscs

Which is why Ketogenic diets have 15% protein from cals. If I go over the protein levels, usually over 100-110gm, I get kicked out of ketosis. If you are having 30% of cals from protein (like in the above study) there is no way you can be in ketosis unless starving. Insulin will raise with high protein content, not necessarily as high as carbs. But might be enough to kick you out of ketosis.

Sorry but I don't think that's right at all. Not all ketogenic diets are "15% cals from protein". Your protein requirements are determined by your lean body mass and the percentage of your calories that come from protein are determined by both your lean body mass and your caloric intake/deficit. A blanket statement that "15% is right for everyone" is nonsense.

Iwishyouwell

I wonder why vegans and vegetarians don't attract this much vehemence on MFP, restrictive as they are with their choices.

Or the entire societies that, by virtue of history and food availability, don't have access to loads of food groups.

MelRC117

I've recently started having binges in the late evenings. I've read about Ketogenic diets having a satiating effect... and now I'm just curious.

Yep, its true. Since going Keto in January, I never have times where I am uncontrollably starving. Kinda hungry? Sure. Starving to the point that I want to eat all the things? No. Never.

I don't eat a keto diet and I'm never uncontrollably starving either. How do you explain this?

But the OP IS having problems keeping under her calories with how hungry she feels. He didn't say "Whoever diets any other way is always uncontrollably starving". How you feel on your low calorie or whatever way you choose to eat diet is irrelevant because you aren't having the same issue OP is.

OP - check out the groups for keto or low carb groups. That would be a good start to find out more info and food ideas.

Leonidas_meets_Spartacus

BF%, lean mass has nothing to do with insulin levels. If you are more than 25% protein + carb, its usually on higher end. If liver is generating considerable amount of glucose from protein/carbs you won't be in ketosis. The liver shuts of ketone production when it has higher glucose levels or else the body will go in to ketoacidosis, which is why Type 1 Diabetics should be very careful going in to Ketosis.

Dragonwolf

Which is why Ketogenic diets have 15% protein from cals. If I go over the protein levels, usually over 100-110gm, I get kicked out of ketosis. If you are having 30% of cals from protein (like in the above study) there is no way you can be in ketosis unless starving. Insulin will raise with high protein content, not necessarily as high as carbs. But might be enough to kick you out of ketosis.

Sorry but I don't think that's right at all. Not all ketogenic diets are "15% cals from protein". Your protein requirements are determined by your lean body mass and the percentage of your calories that come from protein are determined by both your lean body mass and your caloric intake/deficit. A blanket statement that "15% is right for everyone" is nonsense.

You're right, technically, but you're also missing the point -- protein is insulinogenic, therefore too much will knock you out of ketosis. 15% is an average number for ketogenic diets. For some people it will be higher, for others, it will be lower (from what I've seen, it generally works out to the ballpark of 100g). A ketogenic diet is enough protein to support muscle retention/building, without eating so much that you drop out of ketosis.

parkscs

Which is why Ketogenic diets have 15% protein from cals. If I go over the protein levels, usually over 100-110gm, I get kicked out of ketosis. If you are having 30% of cals from protein (like in the above study) there is no way you can be in ketosis unless starving. Insulin will raise with high protein content, not necessarily as high as carbs. But might be enough to kick you out of ketosis.

Sorry but I don't think that's right at all. Not all ketogenic diets are "15% cals from protein". Your protein requirements are determined by your lean body mass and the percentage of your calories that come from protein are determined by both your lean body mass and your caloric intake/deficit. A blanket statement that "15% is right for everyone" is nonsense.

You're right, technically, but you're also missing the point -- protein is insulinogenic, therefore too much will knock you out of ketosis. 15% is an average number for ketogenic diets. For some people it will be higher, for others, it will be lower (from what I've seen, it generally works out to the ballpark of 100g). A ketogenic diet is enough protein to support muscle retention/building, without eating so much that you drop out of ketosis.

My point was that "so much [protein] that you drop out of ketosis" is perhaps more than you think and certainly more than is being suggested in this thread, at least for some people. The notion that you cannot be in a state of ketosis at 30% protein without starving simply wrong.

Dragonwolf

My only advise to people is that restricting a whole food group "carbs" because one believes they are "bad" is not the best course..when a simple calorie deficit will allow one to lose weight...baring any medical condition that would make one sensitive to carbs...

ETA - I questioned the OP as to why she wanted to start this diet and never opposed her doing it. I simply said that inaccurate logging is the cause of her issue, and if she did not correct the inaccurate logging, then whatever diet she chooses is going to end in failure.

Given that she stated that she's having issues with cravings and binging suggests that she's a good candidate to try a low (or lower) carb diet -- up to and including keto. No, she may not have a medical diagnosis of something, but if you need to lose a few pounds, you don't need a doctor to tell you you're fat in order to start counting calories, either.

Carbs aren't inherently evil, no, but many people find lowering their carbs is a good way to make maintaining a deficit, and controlling issues with binging, easier and more sustainable. It's not going to hurt the OP to try it for a month and see how she feels and how it works for her.

OP - Even short of going completely ketogenic, I've found reducing my carbs and increasing my fat intake has done wonders in controlling my hunger and more easily meeting my protein goal. I'm also one for whom doing so has greatly reduced my cravings for foods that I can easily overdo and easily put me over my calories. I went from barely being able to eat "only" 2000 calories (and wanting to gnaw my arm off), to struggling to eat that much without feeling like I'm forcing-feeding myself.

I definitely think it's worth a try to see if it has any effect on your binging and hunger issues. Try it for a month and see how it works for you. If it doesn't work, then you can simply find another strategy.

In addition to what's already been recommended, you might want to check out Dr. Peter Attia's blog - http://eatingacademy.com/how-i-lost-weight - he's been keto since May 2011 and has seen tremendous results from it. He's also got a ton of good information on ketosis and the keto diet.

Dragonwolf

Which is why Ketogenic diets have 15% protein from cals. If I go over the protein levels, usually over 100-110gm, I get kicked out of ketosis. If you are having 30% of cals from protein (like in the above study) there is no way you can be in ketosis unless starving. Insulin will raise with high protein content, not necessarily as high as carbs. But might be enough to kick you out of ketosis.

Sorry but I don't think that's right at all. Not all ketogenic diets are "15% cals from protein". Your protein requirements are determined by your lean body mass and the percentage of your calories that come from protein are determined by both your lean body mass and your caloric intake/deficit. A blanket statement that "15% is right for everyone" is nonsense.

You're right, technically, but you're also missing the point -- protein is insulinogenic, therefore too much will knock you out of ketosis. 15% is an average number for ketogenic diets. For some people it will be higher, for others, it will be lower (from what I've seen, it generally works out to the ballpark of 100g). A ketogenic diet is enough protein to support muscle retention/building, without eating so much that you drop out of ketosis.

My point was that "so much [protein] that you drop out of ketosis" is perhaps more than you think and certainly more than is being suggested in this thread, at least for some people. The notion that you cannot be in a state of ketosis at 30% protein without starving simply wrong.

He also never said "15% is right for everyone." Just like 40/30/30 isn't right for everyone, veg*nism isn't right for everyone, and so on. 15% is a general guideline based on averages. The exact amount of protein and carbs to cross the line between ketosis and not is going to be slightly different from person to person. I don't think anyone on this thread has said otherwise.

That said, 30% protein is generally only feasible to do while still in ketosis if you're eating about 2000 calories or less. If you're a size and/or activity level where 2000 is a realistic calorie requirement, then 30% is still on the upper end of what you'd need even by the LBM calculation (about 150g at 2000 calories).

Carnivor0us

I've recently started having binges in the late evenings. I've read about Ketogenic diets having a satiating effect... and now I'm just curious.

Yep, its true. Since going Keto in January, I never have times where I am uncontrollably starving. Kinda hungry? Sure. Starving to the point that I want to eat all the things? No. Never.

I don't eat a keto diet and I'm never uncontrollably starving either. How do you explain this?

Ever heard of an hormone called insulin. Be thankful, you don't have to go through those spikes. Every person is different, one way to handle uncontrollable starving to keep the insulin levels flat. Which is what Keto diets do.

Protein is also highly insulinogenic...

Yes, if you eat asstons of it.

yarwell

I wonder why vegans and vegetarians don't attract this much vehemence on MFP, restrictive as they are with their choices.

They would complain, and the moderators would act.

parkscs

Which is why Ketogenic diets have 15% protein from cals. If I go over the protein levels, usually over 100-110gm, I get kicked out of ketosis. If you are having 30% of cals from protein (like in the above study) there is no way you can be in ketosis unless starving. Insulin will raise with high protein content, not necessarily as high as carbs. But might be enough to kick you out of ketosis.

Sorry but I don't think that's right at all. Not all ketogenic diets are "15% cals from protein". Your protein requirements are determined by your lean body mass and the percentage of your calories that come from protein are determined by both your lean body mass and your caloric intake/deficit. A blanket statement that "15% is right for everyone" is nonsense.

You're right, technically, but you're also missing the point -- protein is insulinogenic, therefore too much will knock you out of ketosis. 15% is an average number for ketogenic diets. For some people it will be higher, for others, it will be lower (from what I've seen, it generally works out to the ballpark of 100g). A ketogenic diet is enough protein to support muscle retention/building, without eating so much that you drop out of ketosis.

My point was that "so much [protein] that you drop out of ketosis" is perhaps more than you think and certainly more than is being suggested in this thread, at least for some people. The notion that you cannot be in a state of ketosis at 30% protein without starving simply wrong.

He also never said "15% is right for everyone." Just like 40/30/30 isn't right for everyone, veg*nism isn't right for everyone, and so on. 15% is a general guideline based on averages. The exact amount of protein and carbs to cross the line between ketosis and not is going to be slightly different from person to person. I don't think anyone on this thread has said otherwise.

That said, 30% protein is generally only feasible to do while still in ketosis if you're eating about 2000 calories or less. If you're a size and/or activity level where 2000 is a realistic calorie requirement, then 30% is still on the upper end of what you'd need even by the LBM calculation (about 150g at 2000 calories).

So you're saying that 2000 calories is the equivalent of starving? Wow, I never knew.

Acg67

I've recently started having binges in the late evenings. I've read about Ketogenic diets having a satiating effect... and now I'm just curious.

Yep, its true. Since going Keto in January, I never have times where I am uncontrollably starving. Kinda hungry? Sure. Starving to the point that I want to eat all the things? No. Never.

I don't eat a keto diet and I'm never uncontrollably starving either. How do you explain this?

Ever heard of an hormone called insulin. Be thankful, you don't have to go through those spikes. Every person is different, one way to handle uncontrollable starving to keep the insulin levels flat. Which is what Keto diets do.

Protein is also highly insulinogenic...

Yes, if you eat asstons of it.

Define asstons