Ketosis/High Fat Diet
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I'm going back into it for a bit. I do it from time to time, just for a month or so. I seem to do better at shifting fat at 5/30/65 than my usual 40/30/30 on exactly the same caloric intake, and never notice a performance dip after the first few days. If it doesn't work it's not exactly a disaster, just a month where nothing happened, go back to normal and carry on. I wouldn't make it a full on lifestyle change, it is literally just a brief phase as it seems to work better for cutting for me, because I rather like carbs and wouldn't want to cut them out forever (although having a period where I get to eat bacon and fried eggs for breakfast every day and snack on pork scratchings is always nice).
tl;dr: carbs aren't evil, but some people (myself included) cut better without them, YMMV, try it for a bit and see, it won't harm you.0 -
Yes, and that insulin is used to move the amino-acids from the protein into your muscles. Insulin is a highly-anabolic hormone, second only to testosterone.Protein is insulinogenic. That means it triggers an insulin response, even in the absence of carbs.
It is simply untrue that someone who's not Type I cannot be in ketoacidosis. It presents in the ER quite regularly in Type II diabetics (most-often in african-americans and those of hispanic descent), often as their FIRST diabetic symptom, and it's becoming increasingly common. Perhaps you should refresh your knowledge on the subject.Ketones are modulated by insulin. Therefore, the more insulin circulating in the body, the fewer ketones. This is why it's not possible for someone who is not Type 1 Diabetic to end up in a state of ketoacidosis.
Heck, there's even reports in the NEJM of NON-diabetic patients presenting with ketoacidosis - but it's an incredibly rare event in someone that had a genetic pre-dispostion toward it which was exacerbated by a vlckd without a medical need.
And my attempt to be succinct fails again. You're right, Type II Diabetics can get it, though my understanding was that it was quite rare in the grand scheme of things (and basically requires the pancreas to have shut down insulin production at that point), so it didn't seem worth mentioning in this particular thread. It'd be interesting to see more statistics on increase and as a first symptom, as well as more demographic information (income level, etc).
As for the protein part, I'm not really sure what your point is. The insulin response triggered by protein will still at least be partially used to lower the ketone levels in the body, too, potentially knocking a person out of their nutritional ketogenic state, especially in cases where one has eaten excess protein for their needs (hence why lifters can eat more protein before leaving ketosis).0 -
The last ten pounds are almost always difficult to drop. Look at how well you've done? What are you trying mix up?its not sustainable
carbs aren't evil
unless you have a medical reason for eating high carb low fat don't do it
I don't think carbs are evil but I'm having a difficult time dropping the last 10 pounds and wanted to mix it up.
Patience is a virtue.0 -
Do you not understand you are wrong?I just checked your diary..I see al ot of "quick added calories" and cup, tablespoon measures etc..
If you want to lose last ten pounds you are going to need to tighten up your eating and start logging EVERYTHING that you eat and accounting for it.
I would also suggest that you get a food scale and weight out all your portions...
whether you do Keto, low carb, high carb, whatever..if you are not consistent and accurate with your logging then it will not work ..
Keto, low carb, etc are not some magical fat burning solution ..at the end of the day they are just tools to create a calorie deficit and if you are not accurately logging then they will not work ..
I would suggest tightening up logging first...
This week is literally the first time since October 1st that I've ever used quick add calories. My logging is usually 100% accurate and I DO WEIGH EVERYTHING. Take a look before my week of binging. That is more representative of how I usually log.
I don't use measuring cups.
Quick adds maybe I went back into February and January and saw the following:
Days not logged
Days that were double your goal over 3500 calories at least 2x and I just picked random days
Things not weighed but measured with spoons...ie almond butter
A lot of cracker barrel stuff that isn't weighed...biscuits, chicken, brocolli etc
8 egg whites @ 128 calories it's actually more than that...136 per actual counts per USDA and chicken breast 112g @ 150 calories? 145g has 250cal so 112g has 193 calories...
quick adds in January
and you have gone from 1200 to 1400 to 1600 and back and forth...in less than 2.5months.
Accurate logging isn't just about weighing 90% of the time and logging everything you can choose entries that are wrong...
as mentioned instead of trying a new type of eating tighten up your logging...
Do you not understand that if you know how much 1 tablespoon weighs that it's ok to log in tablespoons. MY GOD! One tablespoon of almond butter is 16g. Therefore if I weigh 16g of almond butter and log 1 tablespoon it is the SAME.
You put a tablespoon of almond butter on the scale and it rarely comes out to 16 grams. It's usually more. How do I know this? Because I put almond butter on a measuring spoon and then put it on the scale.
Measuring cups and spoons are not accurate, the scale is.0 -
Been doing it since January as well to drop body fat. I haven't lost tons of weight, but have dropped to 12.9% body fat. I am doing it under the guidance of a competition coach (he's been coaching for 20+ years), and it is definitely doable. Monday and Tuesday are low carb days for me, Wednesday through Friday are medium, and Saturday and Sunday are higher. There have been some bad days and my diary is definitely not perfect, but feel free to look at it to see how I make food fit. I have tried to include my favorite foods and things I enjoy so I don't feel deprived.
It sounds to me like you are low carbing it, not in ketosis. If you were, you would be having serious trouble maintaining your athletic performance.
Dr. Peter Attia would beg to differ - http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/my-pet-peeve0 -
Pretty sure you are not the OP there, chief, but nice try.What concentrated or high fat foods do you still include in your diet? Oil, sugar, flour and animal products, even in smaller quantities, will keep you fat.
<---eats oil, sugar, flour and animal products on a regular basis. 17.3% body fat last checked.
What is that even supposed to mean? Of course I am not the OP, nor am I trying to be. I am just pointing out that oil, sugar, flour and animal products do not make a person fat (or 'keep' them fat either). I didn't start on MFP at 17.3%, and I didn't get there by avoiding ANY foods.0 -
All I'm trying to say is if you're doing serious weight-training or intense exercise, it's quite easy to eat 30% of your calories from protein AND still stay in ketosis / keto-adapted. Especially as a male. I do it during every bulking cycle, and I measure my serum ketone levels with a meter, so I *know* for certain I stay in ketosis and remain keto-adapted.
As for the protein part, I'm not really sure what your point is. The insulin response triggered by protein will still at least be partially used to lower the ketone levels in the body, too, potentially knocking a person out of their nutritional ketogenic state, especially in cases where one has eaten excess protein for their needs (hence why lifters can eat more protein before leaving ketosis).
Yes, and that insulin is used to move the amino-acids from the protein into your muscles. Insulin is a highly-anabolic hormone, second only to testosterone.Protein is insulinogenic. That means it triggers an insulin response, even in the absence of carbs.
Protein is insulinogenic because insulin is required to move those amino acids into muscles. If you ate 30% protein without exercise it's not likely you'd be in ketosis (less-likely for women than men) as gluconeogenesis alone would likely kick you out ... but for those that engage in exercise 6x a week like myself, it's not an issue.0 -
No, she's not the OP. She's someone showing you by her own example that what you have stated above is completely inaccurate.
Pretty sure you are not the OP there, chief, but nice try.What concentrated or high fat foods do you still include in your diet? Oil, sugar, flour and animal products, even in smaller quantities, will keep you fat.
<---eats oil, sugar, flour and animal products on a regular basis. 17.3% body fat last checked.
There is no truth to the assertion that "Oil, sugar, flour and animal products, even in smaller quantities, will keep you fat." ... nor that they'll MAKE you fat.0 -
Meh, I find it pretty dang sustainable and easy to follow. I lost 54 pounds in 5 months just on keto alone. I don't feel like I'm missing out on carby foods or depriving myself because I don't crave that stuff anymore.
When people ask me what I'm doing to lose the weight, their first response is "Oh, I couldn't do that!" like I somehow developed some kind of monster sized will power, but I didn't really. I didn't get to 250 pounds eating healthy foods, I got that way eating butter tarts for breakfast, entire bags of gummies for snacks, bags of chips for dinner. I think it's safe to say I was addicted to carbs. When you give up carbs, you don't crave them anymore. I started keto a week before Halloween. I didn't cheat once. By the time Halloween rolled around, I just didn't care for candy. I survived Christmas. When everyone was whining about their 10 pound gain, my 3 pound gain went away in 2 days. And it wasn't from carbs, I just really liked the ham and cheese put out
So I'll just smile and nod when people tell me my diet is bad for me and will never last, while they eat their 12 grain toast with light cream cheese and bust their butts in the gym and wonder why they aren't getting anywhere.
TL;DR I do it, I like it, food is good, results are better.0 -
Do you not understand you are wrong?I just checked your diary..I see al ot of "quick added calories" and cup, tablespoon measures etc..
If you want to lose last ten pounds you are going to need to tighten up your eating and start logging EVERYTHING that you eat and accounting for it.
I would also suggest that you get a food scale and weight out all your portions...
whether you do Keto, low carb, high carb, whatever..if you are not consistent and accurate with your logging then it will not work ..
Keto, low carb, etc are not some magical fat burning solution ..at the end of the day they are just tools to create a calorie deficit and if you are not accurately logging then they will not work ..
I would suggest tightening up logging first...
This week is literally the first time since October 1st that I've ever used quick add calories. My logging is usually 100% accurate and I DO WEIGH EVERYTHING. Take a look before my week of binging. That is more representative of how I usually log.
I don't use measuring cups.
Quick adds maybe I went back into February and January and saw the following:
Days not logged
Days that were double your goal over 3500 calories at least 2x and I just picked random days
Things not weighed but measured with spoons...ie almond butter
A lot of cracker barrel stuff that isn't weighed...biscuits, chicken, brocolli etc
8 egg whites @ 128 calories it's actually more than that...136 per actual counts per USDA and chicken breast 112g @ 150 calories? 145g has 250cal so 112g has 193 calories...
quick adds in January
and you have gone from 1200 to 1400 to 1600 and back and forth...in less than 2.5months.
Accurate logging isn't just about weighing 90% of the time and logging everything you can choose entries that are wrong...
as mentioned instead of trying a new type of eating tighten up your logging...
Do you not understand that if you know how much 1 tablespoon weighs that it's ok to log in tablespoons. MY GOD! One tablespoon of almond butter is 16g. Therefore if I weigh 16g of almond butter and log 1 tablespoon it is the SAME.
You put a tablespoon of almond butter on the scale and it rarely comes out to 16 grams. It's usually more. How do I know this? Because I put almond butter on a measuring spoon and then put it on the scale.
Measuring cups and spoons are not accurate, the scale is.
Maybe I am misunderstanding, but I think the OP is saying that she weighs 16g of almond butter, and then logs it as a TBS in MFP since the package says that 1 TBS = 16g and MFP does not have serving sizes listed by weight for that item.
I do not think she means that she is filling a tablespoon, measuring it on the scale, and then using that as the tablespoon measure. The latter would obviously be inaccurate, but I don't understand why the former would be as the package is stating serving size in both measures and grams and she is using grams and just logging in the equivalent measure.0 -
Do you not understand you are wrong?I just checked your diary..I see al ot of "quick added calories" and cup, tablespoon measures etc..
If you want to lose last ten pounds you are going to need to tighten up your eating and start logging EVERYTHING that you eat and accounting for it.
I would also suggest that you get a food scale and weight out all your portions...
whether you do Keto, low carb, high carb, whatever..if you are not consistent and accurate with your logging then it will not work ..
Keto, low carb, etc are not some magical fat burning solution ..at the end of the day they are just tools to create a calorie deficit and if you are not accurately logging then they will not work ..
I would suggest tightening up logging first...
This week is literally the first time since October 1st that I've ever used quick add calories. My logging is usually 100% accurate and I DO WEIGH EVERYTHING. Take a look before my week of binging. That is more representative of how I usually log.
I don't use measuring cups.
Quick adds maybe I went back into February and January and saw the following:
Days not logged
Days that were double your goal over 3500 calories at least 2x and I just picked random days
Things not weighed but measured with spoons...ie almond butter
A lot of cracker barrel stuff that isn't weighed...biscuits, chicken, brocolli etc
8 egg whites @ 128 calories it's actually more than that...136 per actual counts per USDA and chicken breast 112g @ 150 calories? 145g has 250cal so 112g has 193 calories...
quick adds in January
and you have gone from 1200 to 1400 to 1600 and back and forth...in less than 2.5months.
Accurate logging isn't just about weighing 90% of the time and logging everything you can choose entries that are wrong...
as mentioned instead of trying a new type of eating tighten up your logging...
Do you not understand that if you know how much 1 tablespoon weighs that it's ok to log in tablespoons. MY GOD! One tablespoon of almond butter is 16g. Therefore if I weigh 16g of almond butter and log 1 tablespoon it is the SAME.
You put a tablespoon of almond butter on the scale and it rarely comes out to 16 grams. It's usually more. How do I know this? Because I put almond butter on a measuring spoon and then put it on the scale.
Measuring cups and spoons are not accurate, the scale is.
Maybe I am misunderstanding, but I think the OP is saying that she weighs 16g of almond butter, and then logs it as a TBS in MFP since the package says that 1 TBS = 16g and MFP does not have serving sizes listed by weight for that item.
I do not think she means that she is filling a tablespoon, measuring it on the scale, and then using that as the tablespoon measure. The latter would obviously be inaccurate, but I don't understand why the former would be as the package is stating serving size in both measures and grams and she is using grams and just logging in the equivalent measure.
I would agree, that's how I took it...
That's how I do it.... With my asparagus it says 6 pieces is a serving but also that it should be x amount of grams so I just weigh until I get to the serving size amount of grams and then log it as 6 pieces...it might be 5, it might be 10 but I'm matching grams to grams. So my log shows 6 pieces which is very generic and would lead people to believe I don't weigh but I am going by what it says grams should be on the package... It just doesn't translate to the app..0 -
I've recently started having binges in the late evenings. I've read about Ketogenic diets having a satiating effect... and now I'm just curious.
Yep, its true. Since going Keto in January, I never have times where I am uncontrollably starving. Kinda hungry? Sure. Starving to the point that I want to eat all the things? No. Never.
I don't eat a keto diet and I'm never uncontrollably starving either. How do you explain this?
YMMV.... No two people are a carbon copy of each other...0 -
Who gives a damn what a study says?
If you eat high fat and don't find it satiating, switch to something else.
If you do, and find it incredibly satiating, such as myself, be glad you found something that works.
What's the point of this tit-for-tat? If somebody declares that something works for themselves, no "proof" to the contrary matters.
Yeah screw science, go anecdotes!
My body finds fat incredibly satiating.
Let me go and consult it and see if the aforementioned study changes it's mind...
Nope. Still zero f*cks given.
Oh well brah, I tried.
Bahaha this^^^ Awesome response
So many closed minds around here! And of course, the science is always right, right?
OP if you want to try keto then do so. I have done it before and it worked really well and no, I didn't instantly turn into a ball of fat when I stopped. And if you don't like it you can always eat ice cream and pasta and lift heavy things for 7 hours a day.0 -
Do you not understand you are wrong?I just checked your diary..I see al ot of "quick added calories" and cup, tablespoon measures etc..
If you want to lose last ten pounds you are going to need to tighten up your eating and start logging EVERYTHING that you eat and accounting for it.
I would also suggest that you get a food scale and weight out all your portions...
whether you do Keto, low carb, high carb, whatever..if you are not consistent and accurate with your logging then it will not work ..
Keto, low carb, etc are not some magical fat burning solution ..at the end of the day they are just tools to create a calorie deficit and if you are not accurately logging then they will not work ..
I would suggest tightening up logging first...
This week is literally the first time since October 1st that I've ever used quick add calories. My logging is usually 100% accurate and I DO WEIGH EVERYTHING. Take a look before my week of binging. That is more representative of how I usually log.
I don't use measuring cups.
Quick adds maybe I went back into February and January and saw the following:
Days not logged
Days that were double your goal over 3500 calories at least 2x and I just picked random days
Things not weighed but measured with spoons...ie almond butter
A lot of cracker barrel stuff that isn't weighed...biscuits, chicken, brocolli etc
8 egg whites @ 128 calories it's actually more than that...136 per actual counts per USDA and chicken breast 112g @ 150 calories? 145g has 250cal so 112g has 193 calories...
quick adds in January
and you have gone from 1200 to 1400 to 1600 and back and forth...in less than 2.5months.
Accurate logging isn't just about weighing 90% of the time and logging everything you can choose entries that are wrong...
as mentioned instead of trying a new type of eating tighten up your logging...
Do you not understand that if you know how much 1 tablespoon weighs that it's ok to log in tablespoons. MY GOD! One tablespoon of almond butter is 16g. Therefore if I weigh 16g of almond butter and log 1 tablespoon it is the SAME.
You put a tablespoon of almond butter on the scale and it rarely comes out to 16 grams. It's usually more. How do I know this? Because I put almond butter on a measuring spoon and then put it on the scale.
Measuring cups and spoons are not accurate, the scale is.
Maybe I am misunderstanding, but I think the OP is saying that she weighs 16g of almond butter, and then logs it as a TBS in MFP since the package says that 1 TBS = 16g and MFP does not have serving sizes listed by weight for that item.
I do not think she means that she is filling a tablespoon, measuring it on the scale, and then using that as the tablespoon measure. The latter would obviously be inaccurate, but I don't understand why the former would be as the package is stating serving size in both measures and grams and she is using grams and just logging in the equivalent measure.
Thank you! Very well put. For some reason I had a difficult time explaining it so clearly.0 -
Who gives a damn what a study says?
If you eat high fat and don't find it satiating, switch to something else.
If you do, and find it incredibly satiating, such as myself, be glad you found something that works.
What's the point of this tit-for-tat? If somebody declares that something works for themselves, no "proof" to the contrary matters.
Yeah screw science, go anecdotes!
My body finds fat incredibly satiating.
Let me go and consult it and see if the aforementioned study changes it's mind...
Nope. Still zero f*cks given.
Oh well brah, I tried.
Bahaha this^^^ Awesome response
So many closed minds around here! And of course, the science is always right, right?
OP if you want to try keto then do so. I have done it before and it worked really well and no, I didn't instantly turn into a ball of fat when I stopped. And if you don't like it you can always eat ice cream and pasta and lift heavy things for 7 hours a day.
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
― Neil deGrasse Tyson0 -
And the bad thing about science is people all too often misinterpret, misapply and very often overstate the conclusions of studies.
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I didn't ask you or anyone else to look through my diary and scrutinize what I'm doing... I asked to see examples of ketogenic meal plans. I frequently see the two of you doing the same thing to other posts so at least I know I'm not the only one.
Yes, but it's not just about you when people reply like this. It's about all of us reading. It's about unravelling a mystery and finding the best possible solution.
My experience with low carb was an absolute misery. Hungry, moody, the list goes on. Some get kidney stones. Some just get bad breathe. I stuck it out for YEARS and didn't reach my goals (which included eating food I liked). Most people do it for a bit, lose some glycogen, fat, then as soon as they go back to normal eating, gain the glycogen back and never understand the concept of calories in calories out
Counting calories properly has enabled me to finally get the body I couldn't even dream of, stop dieting, fantasising, binging and starving.
All we are mostly trying to do us help the people who may be sitting on the fence or unsure about low carbing.0 -
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I didn't ask you or anyone else to look through my diary and scrutinize what I'm doing... I asked to see examples of ketogenic meal plans. I frequently see the two of you doing the same thing to other posts so at least I know I'm not the only one.
Yes, but it's not just about you when people reply like this. It's about all of us reading. It's about unravelling a mystery and finding the best possible solution.
My experience with low carb was an absolute misery. Hungry, moody, the list goes on. Some get kidney stones. Some just get bad breathe. I stuck it out for YEARS and didn't reach my goals (which included eating food I liked). Most people do it for a bit, lose some glycogen, fat, then as soon as they go back to normal eating, gain the glycogen back and never understand the concept of calories in calories out
Counting calories properly has enabled me to finally get the body I couldn't even dream of, stop dieting, fantasising, binging and starving.
All we are mostly trying to do us help the people who may be sitting on the fence or unsure about low carbing.
Nothing says you can't track calories, macros and eat low carb. Big name diets like Atkins have you tracking your macros very closely (how else do you reintroduce carbs in small increments of 5g/day/week, but for weighing and tracking your food?) and suggest calorie caps as well (in the event satiety alone doesn't lead to weight loss). The most popular LCHF sites I'm aware of provide calculators that give you a deficit from your TDEE as well as your recommended macros. In short, whatever you were doing for years where you didn't count calories isn't every LCHF diet, nor is it even the recommended way to go about it. I don't think you can assume that people that eat a relatively low carb diet aren't tracking their calories.0 -
I didn't ask you or anyone else to look through my diary and scrutinize what I'm doing... I asked to see examples of ketogenic meal plans. I frequently see the two of you doing the same thing to other posts so at least I know I'm not the only one.
Yes, but it's not just about you when people reply like this. It's about all of us reading. It's about unravelling a mystery and finding the best possible solution.
My experience with low carb was an absolute misery. Hungry, moody, the list goes on. Some get kidney stones. Some just get bad breathe. I stuck it out for YEARS and didn't reach my goals (which included eating food I liked). Most people do it for a bit, lose some glycogen, fat, then as soon as they go back to normal eating, gain the glycogen back and never understand the concept of calories in calories out
Counting calories properly has enabled me to finally get the body I couldn't even dream of, stop dieting, fantasising, binging and starving.
All we are mostly trying to do us help the people who may be sitting on the fence or unsure about low carbing.
Nothing says you can't track calories, macros and eat low carb. Big name diets like Atkins have you tracking your macros very closely (how else do you reintroduce carbs in small increments of 5g/day/week, but for weighing and tracking your food?) and suggest calorie caps as well (in the event satiety alone doesn't lead to weight loss). The most popular LCHF sites I'm aware of provide calculators that give you a deficit from your TDEE as well as your recommended macros. In short, whatever you were doing for years where you didn't count calories isn't every LCHF diet, nor is it even the recommended way to go about it. I don't think you can assume that people that eat a relatively low carb diet aren't tracking their calories.
I was in deficit and it was much more difficult than a deficit including carbs. Especially if you want to do sports. I was slim and low body fat but felt dreadful inside and couldn't bike swim and run like I do now. Heck even my weight training is more explosive and dynamic, with greater stamina.
I was in maintenance and I didn't feel as healthy as I do now.
I personally don't know a single low carber or keto that measures their calories. That's including some trainers I know who are not looking very sporty at all. I know one trainer that has started fitting since low carbing. My experience. My opinion.
I'm so glad I don't have to 'survive Christmas' and avoid social events any more!0
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