A Personal View on Exercise Cals and Underfeeding

ImNotThatBob

[musically with great emphasis] Bump, Bump-Bump, Bump, Bum.....

ladyhawk00

[musically with great emphasis] Bump, Bump-Bump, Bump, Bum.....

Music even :bigsmile:

ladyhawk00

Bump

Lauriek70

Well said. I have a better understanding of how starvation mode work and how it can occur slowly.

NitaCB

Well I think I really needed to find this post at the moment. I'm in a position at the moment where I'm a good 4-5 kgs over where my weight used to sit because of a pretty stressful situation of a major earthquake (and aftershocks forever) plus far too much time on my hands to pick and nibble at food.

I've picked up a lot of unhealthy eating habits over the years, some from my mum (including weight hang-ups) and the more I've tried to lose weight the more disordered my eating habits have become. I have always been very active, doing lots of dance when I was younger and now I love to run. The only time I managed to get down to a weight that I was really happy at was in the final part of my dance degree, and I know I did it in an unhealthy way. I knew, deep down, that I was eating way under what I should have been. I was constantly having to distract myself from sickening levels of hunger and I was even starting to find it hard to sleep at night. But...it got me to a weight I was happy at. Unfortunately...I slowly put the weight back on. And as I say now it's higher than it normally is.

I have a horrible habit at picking at food all the time- not big amounts at all, but enough to make me feel ashamed and out of control around food. It's as if it has such a strong hold over me that I can't resist it. Over the last few weeks I've been trying to do quite an extreme diet, too extreme I think for the high amounts of exercise I do. I run for at least 40 mins 5 days a week, as well as a few Pump classes and other bits. I've been burning sometimes over 1000 cals in a day and eating sometimes 1300-1400 total, not net... Obviously it hasn't got me anywhere but I've felt like I've had to, because going really low was the only way it worked for me before.

I don't feel like I've had any success on here yet at all. I'm so scared of stepping on the scale, because I'm always afraid it's going to be an even higher number. I just checked out http://www.cordianet.com/calculator.htm and it said that I should be eating more like 1850 cals. It seems like a very scarily high number at the moment. Do I really have to be brave and weigh myself regularly? I guess I won't really know otherwise. I just feel pretty down about it all cos I don't seem to have gotten anywhere whether I ate higher or lower. Any advice?

suzannekatherine

The trouble with not providing enough fuel is that you don't all of a sudden pop up with a big sign on your forehead announcing "Starvation Mode" or "Underfeeding". It is a very gradual process, that can take months or years to set in, and may take even longer to show any visible signs, especially if you are JUST under the amount your body needs. Not eating enough will not make you collapse on "the 3rd day", or even after a year. There's no set time limit - again, there are a lot of variables. Some people may be able to last for years that way - I did.

I'm kind of in shock right now. I just finished reading this entire thread because a kind MFP member directed me here after finding me crumpled in a virtual heap on this thread: http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/256033-frustrated-and-a-little-worried?page=1#posts-3512189

To recap, I have spent the better part of 3 years on a 12(ish)00 calorie diet (not including the on and off diets of the past decade). The first 6 months worked beautifully (although there was much frustration, a lot of hungriness and a few plateaus) I successfully lost 30 pounds. The next 2 and a half years I did what I have never in my entire life been able to do. I maintained the loss. And at a weight that I never, ever thought I could maintain. Realizing, then, what I still think, to an extent, is true now - that I cannot trust myself to eat rationally without a set of guidelines AND that I am not capable of sticking to any kind of restrictive eating program indefinitely, I basically ate as if I were still trying to loose weight as many days as I had the willpower to do so and then whenever I would decide I wanted to have a day off or there was an event or something, I would take the day off and kind of binge eat. I don't know that it truly constitues binge eating but I do know that I have still not ever been able to internalize any sort of ordered eating patterns, left to my own devices. I pretty much just snack all day long. Occasionally managing to get several foods together on a plate in some semblance of a meal. I'm a forager.

Anyway, but that worked really well for me for a while. And, honestly, I am still maintaining the original weight goal I set for myself BUT, I got to a point in the last few months where I realized I was creeping up a little bit and I started to try to get more strict and found that it just wasn't working the way it used to. I had actually gotten down to 3 or 4 pounds below my goal weight, in the past and I was pretty happy with that range and then I just stopped being able to hold onto that.

I know that it's entirely nitpicky (maybe obsessive) but it started to frighten me that the implications might be that in order to maintain weight I would have to be a on a restrictive, 1200 calorie diet for ever and ever.

Strangely, in the last couple of days, I was sick with bronchitis and just laying in bed all day and eating what seemed like a huge amount of just crap - chips and candy and ice cream (because it was the only thing that sounded good), assuming I had to be packing on the pounds, not watching what I ate, I actually LOST 3 pounds. I have no idea what that's about. Maybe I triggered something. Don't know.

But prior to that it had been a month of working out 7 hours a week, eating 1200 net calories a day with one free day a week and loosing absolutely nothing. Which wasn't exactly the point. I just didn't want to feel like I had to do all that in order to maintain. I wanted a sign that that wasn't true.

Which led me to my freak out.

But now I'm reading all this and thinking maybe I was going about it all wrong.


Briefly, my stats are as follows. I am 5'7" and currently weigh 129 lb (if we assume the recent "massive" dip is probably transitory.) The lowest weight I ever maintained was about 127. Which is where I would kind of like to get back to. It just feels safer. It's within a healthy BMI, it's below the whole number mark. Anyway. I recently bought a body fat scale and (if I can trust that it is accurate) discovered my BF% is 20%. Which is actually lower than I expected. So I don't know what to expect as far as that goes.

But my concerns/questions are these. And maybe you (anyone) can help clear them up.

1) Given that I work three 12 hour shifts as a nurse, on a unit which, on a slow night I might spend the entire shift sitting at the desk, reading a book and on a busy night I might not get a chance to pee all night, and have 4 nights off which I spend mostly puttering around my apartment, sitting at the computer or watching tv, what exacly do I assume is my usual activity level? Assuming, as I guess a lot of people do, that I should shoot for less, I changed it to "sedentary" when I started plateauing. I have diligently tracked my exercise but even that is sort of in question. I think I am going to trust MFP but I'm not totally sure. My HRM seemed to REALLLLLLY overshoot it, in my opinion. And I almost always try to eat back all my exercise calories. I never had a problem with the logic of net calories. I like that MFP phrases it that way. And I rarely have trouble finding something (sometimes crap, I'll admit) to fill the gap but I don't always make it all the way because I'm allowing for margin of error on the part of MFP.

2) My assumption, what I've always been told, was that 1200 was the magic number. That if you go below it you hit starvation. And now I'm questioning that. I have sort of gotten used to eating that over the past few years but it does tend to make me a little irritable sometimes. My other assumption, though, was that the more growley my stomach, the more likely I would actually loose weight. Because it seemed to be the case. If I was really angry and hungry one day, the next day the scale would say really nice things. I have NEVER been able to understand how anybody could eat less than 1100 or 1000 consistently without being seriously cranky and/or hypoglycemic all the time. I tend to faint when I don't eat enough. And feel like I'm sinking into a black hole of depression. But, there is the question. Am I still putting myself into possible starvation, at 1200? I have probably stayed closer to 1300-1400 per day for much of my maintenance phase. More, if you average my free days. Could that still have been little enough to alter my metabolism?

3) If it is the case that my body has gone into a hoarding state, and that was actually one of the reasons I rationalized, even from the start, giving myself free/binge days between dieting, to trick my body into not going into such a phase, what can I do to crawl out of it without completely loosing grip of everything I've worked for? I don't think I could handle gaining. Mostly because I know that I can go to a place, really easily, when I feel defeated, where I just don't care at all and I just gain and gain until I'm back to where I was. And I cannot let that happen ever again.

I feel like this was a complete overshare but I'm almost more worried about it now that I realize that it could actually get worse, if I am, indeed, screwing with my metabolism. I do, absolutely believe, that overall (very, very slowly) I am learning how to not be a disordered eater, through this process of accounting for everything that passes my lips. But I know that it could tip the other way, even without my meaning to and I really don't want that to happen.

ladyhawk00

Well I think I really needed to find this post at the moment. I'm in a position at the moment where I'm a good 4-5 kgs over where my weight used to sit because of a pretty stressful situation of a major earthquake (and aftershocks forever) plus far too much time on my hands to pick and nibble at food.

I've picked up a lot of unhealthy eating habits over the years, some from my mum (including weight hang-ups) and the more I've tried to lose weight the more disordered my eating habits have become. I have always been very active, doing lots of dance when I was younger and now I love to run. The only time I managed to get down to a weight that I was really happy at was in the final part of my dance degree, and I know I did it in an unhealthy way. I knew, deep down, that I was eating way under what I should have been. I was constantly having to distract myself from sickening levels of hunger and I was even starting to find it hard to sleep at night. But...it got me to a weight I was happy at. Unfortunately...I slowly put the weight back on. And as I say now it's higher than it normally is.

I have a horrible habit at picking at food all the time- not big amounts at all, but enough to make me feel ashamed and out of control around food. It's as if it has such a strong hold over me that I can't resist it. Over the last few weeks I've been trying to do quite an extreme diet, too extreme I think for the high amounts of exercise I do. I run for at least 40 mins 5 days a week, as well as a few Pump classes and other bits. I've been burning sometimes over 1000 cals in a day and eating sometimes 1300-1400 total, not net... Obviously it hasn't got me anywhere but I've felt like I've had to, because going really low was the only way it worked for me before.

I don't feel like I've had any success on here yet at all. I'm so scared of stepping on the scale, because I'm always afraid it's going to be an even higher number. I just checked out http://www.cordianet.com/calculator.htm and it said that I should be eating more like 1850 cals. It seems like a very scarily high number at the moment. Do I really have to be brave and weigh myself regularly? I guess I won't really know otherwise. I just feel pretty down about it all cos I don't seem to have gotten anywhere whether I ate higher or lower. Any advice?

Sent you a message to discuss in a little more detail.

anotheryearolder

bump - great info here

ladyhawk00

Sorry it's taken so long to get to this one:

But my concerns/questions are these. And maybe you (anyone) can help clear them up.

1) Given that I work three 12 hour shifts as a nurse, on a unit which, on a slow night I might spend the entire shift sitting at the desk, reading a book and on a busy night I might not get a chance to pee all night, and have 4 nights off which I spend mostly puttering around my apartment, sitting at the computer or watching tv, what exacly do I assume is my usual activity level? Assuming, as I guess a lot of people do, that I should shoot for less, I changed it to "sedentary" when I started plateauing. I have diligently tracked my exercise but even that is sort of in question. I think I am going to trust MFP but I'm not totally sure. My HRM seemed to REALLLLLLY overshoot it, in my opinion. And I almost always try to eat back all my exercise calories. I never had a problem with the logic of net calories. I like that MFP phrases it that way. And I rarely have trouble finding something (sometimes crap, I'll admit) to fill the gap but I don't always make it all the way because I'm allowing for margin of error on the part of MFP.

2) My assumption, what I've always been told, was that 1200 was the magic number. That if you go below it you hit starvation. And now I'm questioning that. I have sort of gotten used to eating that over the past few years but it does tend to make me a little irritable sometimes. My other assumption, though, was that the more growley my stomach, the more likely I would actually loose weight. Because it seemed to be the case. If I was really angry and hungry one day, the next day the scale would say really nice things. I have NEVER been able to understand how anybody could eat less than 1100 or 1000 consistently without being seriously cranky and/or hypoglycemic all the time. I tend to faint when I don't eat enough. And feel like I'm sinking into a black hole of depression. But, there is the question. Am I still putting myself into possible starvation, at 1200? I have probably stayed closer to 1300-1400 per day for much of my maintenance phase. More, if you average my free days. Could that still have been little enough to alter my metabolism?

3) If it is the case that my body has gone into a hoarding state, and that was actually one of the reasons I rationalized, even from the start, giving myself free/binge days between dieting, to trick my body into not going into such a phase, what can I do to crawl out of it without completely loosing grip of everything I've worked for? I don't think I could handle gaining. Mostly because I know that I can go to a place, really easily, when I feel defeated, where I just don't care at all and I just gain and gain until I'm back to where I was. And I cannot let that happen ever again.

I feel like this was a complete overshare but I'm almost more worried about it now that I realize that it could actually get worse, if I am, indeed, screwing with my metabolism. I do, absolutely believe, that overall (very, very slowly) I am learning how to not be a disordered eater, through this process of accounting for everything that passes my lips. But I know that it could tip the other way, even without my meaning to and I really don't want that to happen.

I'll try to hit all of your questions, but if I miss something, let me know.

First, I would recommend reading this thread as well.
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/181080-mfp-s-most-common-user-pitfall-to-avoid

One of the biggest mistakes we make is thinking there is some "magic" number on the scale that will make us feel ok. But that's not how our bodies work. There will be fluctuations, and our bodies DO change as we get older; and by older, I don't mean 30 or 40 years older - even in 1 or 2 years, our hormones and metabolism change. So getting hyperfocused on a specific number on the scale is really sabotaging ourselves. Use measurements and how you look in the mirror, and recognize that number on the scale is really not the be-all-end-all.

Now that's out of the way...
1. Based on what you describe, I would put activity level at lightly active. Partially due to your fitness level, you probably need to account for more cals than you think in daily activity.

2. 1200 has gotten a little too much attention - without much understanding of where it came from. 1200 was the amount WHO began recommending many years ago (based on a lot of studies of disasters, famines, etc) as the minimum amount for the average woman (defined by them as about 5'4", as I recall) to receive adequate nutrition. Meaning, it doesn't mean they'll be especially healthy on it, just that it will maintain bodily functions and they'll survive. It was used to determine how to allocate resources/food to those in need of aid. Since that time, it has become the general recommendation by health experts as the minimum cal goal for weight loss. But the problem with it is that it doesn't take into account height and weight for anyone not average, and it is only supposed to be "adequate" - not "healthy". So for someone who is 5'0, it's not appropriate; nor is it appropriate for someone who is 5'7". Anyone very far outside the median will need a higher or lower amount. So no, 1200 isn't the "magic" number for weight loss - unless you are average size and only want "adequate" nutrition rather than healthy nutrition. And yes, even at 1300-1400 net you could certainly have decreased your metabolism. Your maintenance (without exercise) should be around 1800. So you would have a rather large deficit at 1300, when you have almost no fat stores to draw from. That will force the body to decrease metabolism.

For where you're at, you should have your loss per week goal set at 1/2 lb per week, or even maintenance. Probably the best thing you could do at this point is set it to maintenance for at least a month, eat consistently, and see what happens. That would give your body and hormones a chance to regulate, and give you an idea of what your maintenance cals are. But, if you can't bring yourself to do that, set it for no more than 1/2 lb per week loss (~250 deficit) and make SURE to be no more than 50 under your net cal goal. And, obviously, try to make the majority of your cals good ones.

If you're using an HRM with a chest strap, it is likely about as accurate as MFP. If there's much difference between them, just take the average.

Does that answer your questions? If you have any others, please feel free. :flowerforyou:

DBabbit

Thank you for posting. It could very well have been me you were writing about, and I am so glad I found MFP. I'm in the stage of relearning how to eat, and getting back to exercising. I cut my carb addiction last month, after years of surviving on mostly bread, pasta, rice and beans, and fruit. I have eaten very little protein over at least the last 10 years. I'm not a vegetarian, I just wasn't taking the time to cook it. I've lost quite a bit of muscle mass, and my body shows it. I am so proud of myself now for being able to look at a loaf of bread, a package of cookies, or a plate of pasta covered in high fat sauce, and not want to eat the entire thing. I've also broken my addiction to chocolate, which was a "must have" every day.

I am so thankful for the message boards. I often skip meals, and can go for at least a day and half without eating. I am improving, but it's slow going. I'll get there, because I'm doing this for me - Not for a too shallow boyfriend, not for a mother who makes snide remarks about my weight, and then proceeds to shove unhealthy food under my nose, and not for anyone else. I matter to me. This is my body, and I want to be able to look at myself in the mirror, and love who is looking back.

As I said, I'm relearning how to eat. I don't care what diet anyone is on to lose weight, I'm on one too, and I'll be going through phases of reintroducing foods to my body that it hasn't seen in years, if ever. I've dropped weight fast just by upping my protein intake, and although I expect it will slow down eventually, if I lose 20% of my weight, I'll be happy. Not thrilled, but happy.

What makes things worse is having to be confined to a wheelchair - This is going on year #3. Exercise is limited, but I started doing what I can instead of making excuses. Super proud of myself today for exercising, even though I was in quite a bit of pain. I can do this! It isn't going to kill me, and I quit hurting so bad, although the pain is still there. That alone is encouragement enough to keep it up.

I don't step on the scales every day. It takes a little maneuvering to get it to work right since I don't have much balance when I stand up, and I refuse to let that thing intimidate me. I'll let how my clothes fit be an indicator for most of my journey.

Best wishes for success on yours, and thank you for the information.

hedleyrocks247

Thanks so much for sharing your story! You have a wonderful way of explaining "the ways of the MFP forum" debates!! I'm always excited when I see a post from ladyhawk00!!!!

Debkam

Wow. Your story describes mine to a T. The only exception is I didn't drink soda daily. I'd only buy it on occasion. My drink of choice was/is iced Caramel Latte. I lived this lifestyle the majority of the time from 2004 until just over a week ago when I found MFP. I could never understand why I continued to gain weight since I typically ate once a day, nor could my family members. I didn't eat a lot of junk either. In fact I was probably eating less in the way of calories because I did try to make good choices by choosing fruit and veggies when I did eat . I just wasn't eating enough. The weight gain didn't happen over night. It crept up on me in increments, just slow enough for me to not think about how much weight I'd gained over the years. Once I hit 200 pounds, a number I never thought I'd reach, the alarms went off.

Now I am on my way to better eating and better health. I've lost a lot of muscle and stamina over the years. I am very fortunate though because I think my metabolism is already kicking in. I'm noticing that I'm feeling stronger every day, have more energy, have an appetite again, and can handle longer workouts without knee pain. I don't think I've gained any yet, but I'm ready if I do. Probably a good thing I don't have a scale yet. It feels really good to take my life back.

Thank you for sharing your struggles with this community. It must be difficult to share the part of your life you least want to talk about. It's a privilege to know that you are willing to share your walk from that dark place to a brighter side of life with us. :flowerforyou:

toots99

Saving to read later.

ladyhawk00

Thank you for posting. It could very well have been me you were writing about, and I am so glad I found MFP. I'm in the stage of relearning how to eat, and getting back to exercising. I cut my carb addiction last month, after years of surviving on mostly bread, pasta, rice and beans, and fruit. I have eaten very little protein over at least the last 10 years. I'm not a vegetarian, I just wasn't taking the time to cook it. I've lost quite a bit of muscle mass, and my body shows it. I am so proud of myself now for being able to look at a loaf of bread, a package of cookies, or a plate of pasta covered in high fat sauce, and not want to eat the entire thing. I've also broken my addiction to chocolate, which was a "must have" every day.

I am so thankful for the message boards. I often skip meals, and can go for at least a day and half without eating. I am improving, but it's slow going. I'll get there, because I'm doing this for me - Not for a too shallow boyfriend, not for a mother who makes snide remarks about my weight, and then proceeds to shove unhealthy food under my nose, and not for anyone else. I matter to me. This is my body, and I want to be able to look at myself in the mirror, and love who is looking back.

As I said, I'm relearning how to eat. I don't care what diet anyone is on to lose weight, I'm on one too, and I'll be going through phases of reintroducing foods to my body that it hasn't seen in years, if ever. I've dropped weight fast just by upping my protein intake, and although I expect it will slow down eventually, if I lose 20% of my weight, I'll be happy. Not thrilled, but happy.

What makes things worse is having to be confined to a wheelchair - This is going on year #3. Exercise is limited, but I started doing what I can instead of making excuses. Super proud of myself today for exercising, even though I was in quite a bit of pain. I can do this! It isn't going to kill me, and I quit hurting so bad, although the pain is still there. That alone is encouragement enough to keep it up.

I don't step on the scales every day. It takes a little maneuvering to get it to work right since I don't have much balance when I stand up, and I refuse to let that thing intimidate me. I'll let how my clothes fit be an indicator for most of my journey.

Best wishes for success on yours, and thank you for the information.

I think it's one of the hardest illnesses to recover from, because it involves both psychological and physical (hormonal/chemical) issues. Trying to get them all in sync is so hard. Congrats on your progress and stay strong! :flowerforyou:

KellyBurton1

bump please

Enp1

thank you for your post. A question I have is ive been under eating my calories by some and not eating my exercise calories at all and i had lost 21 pounds in a little over a month now i have gained 5 back in the last week. I know some of it is probably water weight but could my body think it is in starvation mode????

graysmom2005

Really REALLY great post. I am doing the exact same thing now. When i started my journey I lost a bunch of weight working out a lot (going from sedentary) and eating a low calorie diet. Then when I got down to the 140's at 5 ft 6 the weight loss stopped, and I even gained weight. I had become a fitness instructor at this point and was teaching on average NINE classes a week. I was eating the low calorie diet on top of sometimes 2-3 hours of exercise a day and wasn't losing a POUND. I didn't understand. So I'd eat less, thinking I must be eating too much. I'd sometimes lose weight on vacation....HELLO! Earth to Lucinda!!

I'm now trying to do this right, and I'm eating at least 80% of my calories per day. I'm at the beginning of this process, so I'll see how it turns out...but it really does make sense. And it does take time. Great thoughtful post. :drinker:

AlexandraLove

thank you for your post. A question I have is ive been under eating my calories by some and not eating my exercise calories at all and i had lost 21 pounds in a little over a month now i have gained 5 back in the last week. I know some of it is probably water weight but could my body think it is in starvation mode????

This depends on a lot. Proper "starvation mode" is something that happens over months, so you probably aren't in it. But if you are eating under 1000 calories and you've been under for a while, then your body is probably trying to conserve all the food it can.

If you've had something particularly full of sodium, that could be responsible for your weight gain.

You might need to eat back some exercise calories - not eating them doesn't work for everyone.

If it's that time of the month, then that could be responsible.

If you generally just don't drink enough, that could be responsible.

I don't know your exercise activities or duration, or your typical daily intake (including calories, fats, sodium, etc.). You haven't given enough information to determine anything more specific.

ladyhawk00

Thanks for all of your kind words - makes me smile! :flowerforyou:

elizamc

Bump