Teacher Criticisms...(rant)
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However, there needs to be a middle ground. I don't think that bad teachers should be protected but there are things that a union provides that are still important. There are protections against discrimination and other unfair labor practices that unions help enforce. I understand that unions started to protect unskilled labor, but I hate to tell you that there are unions that exist today for everything from plumbers to lawyers/doctors and everything in between.
I am not aware of any union for doctors or lawyers. Where did you get that?
Do you think all unions should be done away with or do you simply believe that it's just the teachers?
I think most unions have outlived their usefulness and should be eliminated.
As far as teachers being available to parents, I think most are very accomodating (within reason), but comparing teachers to doctors is very unfair. Doctors have answering services after hours and if there is an emergency you go to another doctor or the hospital. I'm sorry, but there is no conference that is an emergency unless CPS or other law enforcement agencies are invovled. Your doctor is not required to stay after hours to accomodate your schedule as a patient. Your doctor also probably charges you a fee if you fail to show up without calling to cancel. If parents don't show up, the teachers simply have to smile and deal with it. Not to mention, doctors get paid much more than a teacher.
Doctors also have a lot more education, responsiblity and the profession is far more selective about who gets in. Comparing salaries is a red herring, because if you really look at the amount teachers get for the time they are on the clock that is way more than comparable jobs requiring a bachelor's degree. Way more. With far more perks, such as health and dental, and let's not mention the vacations.
A teacher's family does not and should not take a backseat to their job. I have an administrator who believes that it's family first, then work. I am thankful for that every day because my family is just as important to me as your child is to you. There needs to be a level of respect.
Respect is earned. From what I am reading on this board, the complaints of teachers about having to accomodate parents who also work is just ridiculous. Complaints about having to go to unpaid training is ridiculous. In professions such as law and medicine, the participants in conferences or training in new technology pay for their own conferences. And they may get the time off to do this, but their same work load needs to be handled when they get back.
I am seriously asking what gives teachers the right to call themselves professionals?
Well, I've worked as a lawyer and I was compensated for my time. When you work more billable hours over the requirements, you get a bonus. You go to conferences that are largely paid for by your employer. Law firms pay you when you are on maternity leave, vacation time, etc. Teachers do not get paid maternity leave.
Most federal government lawyers are unionized unless they represent management. Just because you don't know about something doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
Another thing, when a teacher is absent they have to prepare for class as if they were going to be there. The workload is still there. It's not like a teacher takes the day off and doesn't still have stuff to do upon return. Not to mention the mess that has to be cleaned up because your class had a sub.0 -
Teachers want to consider themselves professionals, yet they don't act professional. Have you ever seen a doctor say, "Gee, it's after three. Oprah is on. I don't think I can take care of you now, since I only work until three."
Ever hear a lawyer say, "Sorry Judge, you are going to have to stop the trial. It's three O'Clock and I have to get home. Oh, and by the way, I won't be working June, July and August, so can you continue this until September?"
A true professional does what he has to do when he has to do it. If you are not professionals, then admit it. If you claim to be professionals act like it.
I think it's pretty sorry when a group who only work 8 months a year, get out at three, and get more vacations than any one else on the planet cannot take time to do their job, but expect everyone else to cater to them. Someone here, a teacher, pointed out that this country is full of entitled people. That certainly includes teachers.
where are you getting this from? you homeschooled your children, right? when have you had this incredibly poor interaction with a teacher? did this ever actually happen to you, or have you ever *actually* seen this happen? this is about your third 'oprah' reference in this thread and i'm curious as to whether you have a valid experience with this or you just think it sounds clever.
My son was in public school for five weeks before we pulled him out. Then we tried private school, and finally we decided that if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself.
as for teachers not being professionals...(should i even dignify this with an answer at all?)
well, it takes some pretty fair amounts of professionalism to stick to the facts and only the facts when a student and their parent are bombarding you with f-bombs and accusations and not listening to a thing you say in a conference when all you want is the student to graduate.
I would not put up with that. I don't know why anyone would.
you should take your homeschool/private tutoring experience and go volunteer at a low income school. then report back here. until then, your perception is pretty much void because you have only seen such a small (privileged) part of the education system.
First you said you had to be a teacher to understand. Now you are saying you have to teach poor kids to understand?
i have never seen a teacher that bolts for home when the bell rings.
I have. When my son was in public school we waited outside in the parking lot. His teacher left even before he got out.
i have never seen a teacher walk into a school just as their class is starting. and i've actually worked in some schools, so i can speak on the subject to some degree. and i've never heard of a teacher denying conference time with a parent, unless there was a very good reason for it (like a final AP exam review that had been scheduled for over a month).
I am only reacting to what has been said on this board. I would hope most treachers are not like some here, complaining about their free time being impinged upon because of having to accomodate working parents.
my husband's school begins at 8:50 and dismisses at 3:40, but he leaves at 7:00 in the morning and doesn't come home until around 6 on most evenings (and it's not a commute - he just gets there very early). and he grades essays on the weekends. last night he went back at 8pm for a rehearsal with two other teachers to practice a routine for a pep rally coming up. they want it to be a good one for their students.
Good. I do know that at my town's school things like band practice are paid for separately by the BOE. I.e., it is not an offer of free time just because the teachers are nice. I am not saying that is true in your husband's case, and I am sure that if he got paid extra for it you would say so.
yes, my husband is a kicka$s teacher, but he's not a rarity. and i have yet to see a teacher expect to be catered to. i'm sure it's happening somewhere to a small degree, but....catered to? are you kidding me? thanks for the chuckles.
If your husband is a kicka$s teacher, I have no doubt he is a good one. All the best teachers are no nonsense.
and enough with the unions already. i wish we had a union.
Unions have destroyed public eduation in Connecticut.0 -
Well, I've worked as a lawyer and I was compensated for my time. When you work more billable hours over the requirements, you get a bonus. You go to conferences that are largely paid for by your employer. Law firms pay you when you are on maternity leave, vacation time, etc. Teachers do not get paid maternity leave.
Hah! In Connecticut they do.
Most federal government lawyers are unionized unless they represent management. Just because you don't know about something doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
It is not a lawyers' union, it is a federal employees union. Let's be precise.
Another thing, when a teacher is absent they have to prepare for class as if they were going to be there. The workload is still there. It's not like a teacher takes the day off and doesn't still have stuff to do upon return. Not to mention the mess that has to be cleaned up because your class had a sub.
Gee, what does the sub do? Babysit?0 -
The amount of holidays teachers get is obscene.
*rolling eyes*
i don't see why you have such an issue with this. we don't set the schedule. the summers off are for the students. we don't get paid for that time. if we worked 12 months out of the year, we'd make more money, which would be nice. did you have summers off when you were in school growing up, or did you come through some highly progressive model that sat young children at their desks 52 weeks out of the year? this summers off thing is a moot point.
So, I gues you're saying that the Teacher Unions would have no problem with year round work, because, after all, the District is entitled to set the schedule?
If you believe that I have a bridge I's like to sell you.0 -
as for teachers not being professionals...(should i even dignify this with an answer at all?)
well, it takes some pretty fair amounts of professionalism to stick to the facts and only the facts when a student and their parent are bombarding you with f-bombs and accusations and not listening to a thing you say in a conference when all you want is the student to graduate.
I would not put up with that. I don't know why anyone would.
if no one put up with this, there would be *very* few teachers left. and when that student finally makes an effort and makes a 'c' on a quiz or a test, you have the good grace to celebrate it. it's your job, and you don't abandon ship, no matter what. i see that as professionalism, but i must be in the minority there. which is a shame.you should take your homeschool/private tutoring experience and go volunteer at a low income school. then report back here. until then, your perception is pretty much void because you have only seen such a small (privileged) part of the education system.
First you said you had to be a teacher to understand. Now you are saying you have to teach poor kids to understand?
touche! i did say that. originally. but you have changed my mind rather quickly on that end.
i wonder how many of our politicians or education department reps went to a school with a large percentage of free-reduced lunch students. probably not many. i might look into that - that would be interesting to see. they probably went to private schools that weren't even required to do any testing.and enough with the unions already. i wish we had a union.
Unions have destroyed public eduation in Connecticut.
that's a bummer. i really don't know anything about the union stuff.0 -
The amount of holidays teachers get is obscene.
*rolling eyes*
i don't see why you have such an issue with this. we don't set the schedule. the summers off are for the students. we don't get paid for that time. if we worked 12 months out of the year, we'd make more money, which would be nice. did you have summers off when you were in school growing up, or did you come through some highly progressive model that sat young children at their desks 52 weeks out of the year? this summers off thing is a moot point.
So, I gues you're saying that the Teacher Unions would have no problem with year round work, because, after all, the District is entitled to set the schedule?
If you believe that I have a bridge I's like to sell you.
smirk...!
i don't know about the union stuff, already!
i do know that when summer school was cut in our district (what a great idea, right?) a whooooole lot of us were bummed because there went our summer work. they made it technology based (oh joy) and instead of using teachers to actually go over the material, they now use computer terminals and have just one or two to babysit. nto cool.0 -
Respect is earned. From what I am reading on this board, the complaints of teachers about having to accomodate parents who also work is just ridiculous. Complaints about having to go to unpaid training is ridiculous. In professions such as law and medicine, the participants in conferences or training in new technology pay for their own conferences. And they may get the time off to do this, but their same work load needs to be handled when they get back.
Again, this has SO little to do with teachers in many cases. Our conference day (no students) is held during normal work hours on the MOnday before Thanksgiving, then we teach all day Tuesday and Wednesday before Thanksgiving. We have PETITIONED to change it - have students come Monday and Tuesday, have conferences for four hours Monday and Tuesday evenings, and give everyone off on Wednesday. Fairer to parents who travel for the holiday, fairer for working parents to have hours available from 4-8 pm. The school board is not interested in that, so evening conferences are done on our own time, while we get paid to sit at school all day on Conference day and meet with the 1-2 parents who CAN come in during work hours. And I don't even complain about it, I'm just saying it doesn't make sense. It's the SYSTEM, friends, in SO MANY CASES. Not the teachers (although of course, yes, there are some bad ones).0 -
Gee, what does the sub do? Babysit?
*shudder*
substitutes are a whole different can of worms. i have seen some *doozies* in the sub realm, i'll tell ya!
and just because a substitute sits and the desk all day playing on their pocket computer and letting the students do whatever they want does *not* mean that the teacher didn't spend a couple of hours planning a nice lesson that would hopefully keep the class interested and deter them from eating the sub alive...0 -
My only criticism is the teacher's union preventing the poor performing teachers from being fired. An accountant that screws up enough gets fired. Cashiers that are constantly short in the totals are fired. Unfortunately the union protects bad teachers.
Mind you, I work in an union environment and it works very hard at protecting sh!tty employees. Three suspensions, numerous warnings and poor performance is still not reason enough to let someone go. It hurts the product we provide.
This is the truth. See it all day, everyday..0 -
Well, I've worked as a lawyer and I was compensated for my time. When you work more billable hours over the requirements, you get a bonus. You go to conferences that are largely paid for by your employer. Law firms pay you when you are on maternity leave, vacation time, etc. Teachers do not get paid maternity leave.
Hah! In Connecticut they do.
Most federal government lawyers are unionized unless they represent management. Just because you don't know about something doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
It is not a lawyers' union, it is a federal employees union. Let's be precise.
Another thing, when a teacher is absent they have to prepare for class as if they were going to be there. The workload is still there. It's not like a teacher takes the day off and doesn't still have stuff to do upon return. Not to mention the mess that has to be cleaned up because your class had a sub.
Gee, what does the sub do? Babysit?
It's actually not a federal employees union. If you really want to be percise, the lawyers have their own union with their own contract with lawyer specific rules and negotiated policies/procedures specific to lawyers. The judges also have a union to represent their interests.
Actually, most of the time the subs do babysit. Subs come in and expect to have plans and things to do with the kids.0 -
And I don't even complain about it, I'm just saying it doesn't make sense. It's the SYSTEM, friends, in SO MANY CASES. Not the teachers (although of course, yes, there are some bad ones).
amen.
our school board has a nasty habit of favoring the districts that their children/grandchildren attend. so we get a lot sent down the line that doesn't make any sense. in addition to the loads of county/state/federal rules that suck. ugh.0 -
Only have 2 questions
1. If you know how crappy the pay is before you get into a job, how can you complain about it once your in it? Thats like going to Russia and then complaining that you don't like communism when you knew it was a communist country before you got there.
2. If you actually break down the amount of days you work to your pay, teachers are far from being the worst paid.
Now that is said I wouldn't want the job because of crazy little kids i would beat one and go to jail but hey thats why I'm not a teacher.0 -
Only have 2 questions
1. If you know how crappy the pay is before you get into a job, how can you complain about it once your in it? Thats like going to Russia and then complaining that you don't like communism when you knew it was a communist country before you got there.
2. If you actually break down the amount of days you work to your pay, teachers are far from being the worst paid.
Now that is said I wouldn't want the job because of crazy little kids i would beat one and go to jail but hey thats why I'm not a teacher.
thread is not complaining about pay! gah!
thread is complaining about people with the misguided assumption that teacher's don't work hard for their money. you know, like the song.
but yes, if you might pummel a child, best you avoid the education field...:laugh:0 -
Only have 2 questions
1. If you know how crappy the pay is before you get into a job, how can you complain about it once your in it? Thats like going to Russia and then complaining that you don't like communism when you knew it was a communist country before you got there.
2. If you actually break down the amount of days you work to your pay, teachers are far from being the worst paid.
Now that is said I wouldn't want the job because of crazy little kids i would beat one and go to jail but hey thats why I'm not a teacher.
I actually don't mind the pay. I'm making more as a teacher than I would as a lawyer (practicing an area that I actually want to work in - public interest). I just think that people assume that everyone is complaining about the pay. It's not even true of most people I work with. I think people get upset by the way they are treated and then the issue of "I don't get paid enough to be.....your punching bag, scapegoat, etc." comes out.0 -
Teachers, most of them, rock! They do a job I could never imagine doing in a million years. When I help with homework I'm flustered by one kid so I couldn't imagine adding in 18 more into the mix! I think most jobs are highly underpaid and that's a sad fact. How in the world is it fair that a movie star can make millions but a person in the "real" world may have to worry just because they make minimum wage?0
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I actually think that in most cases...it's the bad teachers that complain about the pay.0
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Teachers, most of them, rock! They do a job I could never imagine doing in a million years. When I help with homework I'm flustered by one kid so I couldn't imagine adding in 18 more into the mix! I think most jobs are highly underpaid and that's a sad fact. How in the world is it fair that a movie star can make millions but a person in the "real" world may have to worry just because they make minimum wage?
well said! the fella' that makes me my hamburger is worth more than whoever the latest and greatest reality star is b1tching on television. our priorities are so messed up.0 -
So when YOUR childs teacher is busy. Making time for you on your terms because your time is so much more important than theirs. What will THEIR child be doing the one they gave birth to.proberly waiting around for THEIR mum to finnish making time for YOUR kid because you didn't want to take the holiday. My mum got a lot if. stuck up mums who thought all teachers owed them the world and i often lost a lot of he's of her time because she had to hang around until mums could be bothered to show their faces.
great point. it seems like many people make the assumption that teachers don't have children or lives of their own, and if they do and want to take part in it, it should only be during the vast amounts of vacation time that they receive (which they are not paid for, contrary to popular belief).
didn't you know that if you are a teacher with your own family, your family comes in *second* to the families of your students? common knowledge. why fix your own children dinner when you have the thrilling opportunity to discuss with your students' parents why they are failing when you have phoned and emailed repeatedly that they refuse to turn in assignments, but now that the progress reports have come out, they want to have a two hour long discussion about how you don't know what you are doing and how to create a suitable action plan for their child to still earn an A++ in your class without lifting a finger, keeping their GPA at a high enough score for ivy league, and by the way, can this go under service hours for their key club membership?
i know that not all parents are like this, obviously. there are some *great* parents out there who teach their students responsibility. but, man, have i seen some doozies. one lady had the nerve to call my husband at our home over the summer and leave several messages insisting that he change her daughter's grade from a 'c' to an 'a', and he had better darn well call because she was a tax payer. puh-LEase! :noway:0 -
If I understand you correctly (and I am not sure I do - very convoluted post) you are exactly the kind of teacher we experienced when we pulled our own kid out of school. Or, if you are not a teacher but a misguided parent, then you truly are myopic. Any teacher who has 200 days a year off can and should accomodate a parent who is limited to two weeks of vacation per year. If I understand you correctly, and again, I am not sure I do, you are defending the reason people hate teachers and resent them. A teacher gets enough damn vacation for 50 people. In the last 30 years, I don't think I have had as much vacation in total as as a teacher has in one year. Yet you would force a parent to use a scarce vacation day so the teacher can be home in time to watch Oprah? Wow! Sorry, but I think that is just plain inane.
Have you ever taught? I'm not a teacher (far from it actually), but I grew up around in the school district "family" because my mom is a school librarian. A teacher DOESN'T get all this "vacation." All the teachers I know spend their "vacation" grading papers, lesson planning, preparing their classroom for the next semester/school year. Even the summer - TONS of the teachers I know sign up to do all the summer school classes and enrichment programs to make extra money because their salaries are so small. Teachers in our districts can earn more by sponsoring student organizations and sports. So even more of them spend every single evening at the school with the debate club, attending club meetings, or going to cheerleading practices. My mom is just a librarian and even when she is "off" in the summer, she's constantly working, going to the school to get stuff done. I spent my summers growing up helping her re-barcode and re-catalog every single school library in our district. My daughter is in a tutoring program until 4:30 every Tuesday and Thursday. I pick her up around 5 from her aftercare program and her teacher is still in the classroom tidying up, working at her desk, etc.
I'm extremely glad I work at a job that my work stays here. I don't have worksheets, papers, and projects to take home and grade while I try to spend time with my own family. My job doesn't even count sick days - I still get paid for them and it doesn't affect my vacation days at all. It's frowned up teachers calling in repeatedly, because the district has to find a sub and pay for them, who usually make more money than the teachers do. (I know, because I subbed a few times when I was unemployed after college and made good money for sitting there doing nothing.)0 -
Edited to avoid fueling the fire...
wish i had responded here so it was still up - a very good, well-written post that covered all the angles.0 -
Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
:flowerforyou:0 -
this is..by far.. the best thing I've ever heard! Thank you so much!0
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Great job! I am working in a school system that has not given teachers a raise in 4 years. It looks like we might no get one for 5 more years. I am at work an hour before school starts, stay late, and spend tons of my own money.0
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Lazy? I am a teacher. I work after school tutoring and summer school every - not for extra money, just to pay my bills. We may have summers and holidays off - but our pay reflects that! I do not know many teachers that do it for the money, we do it for the children. I dare the people that think teaching is easy to try it....you would not last long!!!!0
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@madroch: I think your post was the most comprehensive and pragmatic yet. That's probably why the responses died...you wrapped it up quite nicely.
i second this!0 -
well said.
I am a daughter of teachers and former teachers aide until I received my greatest student of all, my son.
If it weren't for all the "over paid babysitters" we wouldn't have drs or lawyers, or business starters or police or any kind of society what-so- ever. Teachers should be treated with the same respect as the president because guess what, a teacher put him there. You guys are WAAAAAY under paid. Education is the most important thing this country has to handle and it has always been on the back burner. 100K a year (at least), free insurance, and able to retire with full pay at 50.... that's my plan, if I had a say in it.0 -
yep!0
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This was hysterical.Ah education. The fast track to a life of wealth, success and respect. Just the other day I was yachting with a few pubic school teachers, we dined on a lovely pheasant and caviar fresh from Russia.
Plus there's the easy workdays! I mean who doesn't love being responsible for 30+ children all day? Plenty of internet goof off time to be had there. And it's not like it's stressful work. I mean who's gonna get upset if something bad happens to their children?
:noway:
bwah!
To the OP well said. I hate when people say things like that. I have been on a childcare leave for a while but my last year teaching I had a 7 yr old tell me he hated his life and was going to kill himself, another watched his grandmother, only caretaker, get shot, 3 kids were in foster care, one kid was mugged in the bathroom and had her chain ripped off her neck, 2 boys pinned down and molested one of my boys and a bunch of other stuff. But I went to work and loved each of those kids and taught them the best I could every single day. Sometimes progress for kids like these is just sitting in the chair and being able to get through a lesson and not fall asleep in their chair because they can't sleep at home or in the shelter they are living at. Paying teachers for results is bulsh@t not everyone works in suburbia where kids go into school knowing how to read. I'm lucky if my second graders get to me knowing how to cut paper or hold a pencil. I had a kid who could not count to 20 in second grade. By second grade they have been in school for pre-k, kindergarten and first grade and they still can't do these things. How about taking that bonus money they want to give teachers and giving kids the services they need so that they can learn, eat, and just live.0 -
well said.
I am a daughter of teachers and former teachers aide until I received my greatest student of all, my son.
If it weren't for all the "over paid babysitters" we wouldn't have drs or lawyers, or business starters or police or any kind of society what-so- ever. Teachers should be treated with the same respect as the president because guess what, a teacher put him there. You guys are WAAAAAY under paid. Education is the most important thing this country has to handle and it has always been on the back burner. 100K a year (at least), free insurance, and able to retire with full pay at 50.... that's my plan, if I had a say in it.
Good idea, You pay for it too.0
This discussion has been closed.
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