Teacher Criticisms...(rant)
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Sorry-- the silence scared me a bit.. didn't want to start getting really angry PM's-- I'm here to get fit and get help from and support others- not ostracize them or myself....my bad.
Why don't you repost it so we can all see it. Obviously, some people loved it.0 -
Did I miss the definition of "professional" and "professionalism"? I saw these referred to a lot and yet, I don't think that everyone was using a uniform definition. It appears from the definitions I looked up, "professionalism" is "the standing, practice, or methods of a professional, as distinguished from an amateur." (dictionary.com) So as I teacher, I understand the edicts of my profession, but I am not a lawyer, so I do not necessarily know the edicts of that profession. And since I am uneducated in those edicts, can I really make a judgement as to whether or not a lawyer is acting in a professional manner? I probably shouldn't. For those who are unfamiliar with the methods of teaching as well as the restraints put on the profession by the state, you may not be the best to judge teachers. Face it. Teachers are there it use their knowledge of the different teaching methods to teach children, not to agree with everything that parents want them to.
Teaching is the toughest profession out there and it is also the most rewarding. I do not complain about my pay. I do not brag about time off. I come to work everyday in hopes of making a child's life better, even when they and their parents are not interested.
P. S. Do any of you know why schools are not in session over the summer? It is not a huge conspiracy by teachers to have 3 months of vacation. Summers off are a throw back to a time when children were needed to help harvest the fields. School closed so that the children could work. Educationally-speaking, in our current climate, summers off are actually detrimental to the process. Students lose large amounts of learning over the long break.
I know many of you will disagree with me and that's fine. I hope that you learn something from this thread. I know I did.0 -
P. S. Do any of you know why schools are not in session over the summer? It is not a huge conspiracy by teachers to have 3 months of vacation. Summers off are a throw back to a time when children were needed to help harvest the fields. School closed so that the children could work. Educationally-speaking, in our current climate, summers off are actually detrimental to the process. Students lose large amounts of learning over the long break.
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Totally agree - teacher who supports a year round school model here. It would truly make a difference, especially in Title I schools.0 -
Did I miss the definition of "professional" and "professionalism"? I saw these referred to a lot and yet, I don't think that everyone was using a uniform definition. It appears from the definitions I looked up, "professionalism" is "the standing, practice, or methods of a professional, as distinguished from an amateur." (dictionary.com) So as I teacher, I understand the edicts of my profession, but I am not a lawyer, so I do not necessarily know the edicts of that profession. And since I am uneducated in those edicts, can I really make a judgement as to whether or not a lawyer is acting in a professional manner? I probably shouldn't. For those who are unfamiliar with the methods of teaching as well as the restraints put on the profession by the state, you may not be the best to judge teachers. Face it. Teachers are there it use their knowledge of the different teaching methods to teach children, not to agree with everything that parents want them to.
Teaching is the toughest profession out there and it is also the most rewarding. I do not complain about my pay. I do not brag about time off. I come to work everyday in hopes of making a child's life better, even when they and their parents are not interested.
P. S. Do any of you know why schools are not in session over the summer? It is not a huge conspiracy by teachers to have 3 months of vacation. Summers off are a throw back to a time when children were needed to help harvest the fields. School closed so that the children could work. Educationally-speaking, in our current climate, summers off are actually detrimental to the process. Students lose large amounts of learning over the long break.
I know many of you will disagree with me and that's fine. I hope that you learn something from this thread. I know I did.
I agree with you completely.0 -
What Do Teachers Make?
by Author Unknown
The dinner guests were sitting around the table discussing life. One man, a CEO, decided to explain the problem with education.
He argued: "What's a kid going to learn from someone who decided his best option in life was to become a teacher?"
He reminded the other dinner guests that it's true what they say about teachers: "Those who can...do. Those who can't...teach."
To corroborate, he said to another guest: "You're a teacher, Susan," he said. "Be honest. What do you make?"
Susan, who had a reputation of honesty and frankness, replied, "You want to know what I make?"
"I make kids work harder than they ever thought they could."
“I make kids believe in themselves when no one else will.”
"I make a C+ feel like a Congressional Medal of Honor and an A- feel like a slap in the face if the student did not do his or her very best."
"I make parents tremble in fear when I call home"
"You want to know what I make?
"I make kids wonder."
"I make them question."
"I make them criticize."
"I make them apologize and mean it."
"I make them write."
"I make them read, read, read."
"I make them spell definitely beautiful, definitely beautiful, and definitely beautiful over and over and over again, until they will never misspell either one of those words again."
"I make them show all their work in math and hide it all on their final drafts in English."
"I make them understand that if you have a dream, then follow it...and if someone ever tries to judge you by what you make or what you do, you pay them no attention."
"You want to know what I make?!"
"I make a difference."
"What about you?"
Good for this. My niece is a teacher at High School level. Not only does she work hard to teach something to these kids she really cares. Her own children have turned to be an asset to whatever they choose to do in life. They were taught responsibility and their ethics are wonderful.:flowerforyou: :drinker:
Bump0 -
just realized that i never gave my spin on what i would do differently if i were in charge. so here goes:
smaller class sizes. fifteen or less, no exceptions. it is impossible to give the degree of individualized attention that students need when you have 30+ children crammed into a room.
Disagree - class size is irrelevant if you do ability grouping. You cold have 100 in the class and do a better job with ability grouping than having a class of 15 with all mixed ability. By the way, I assume you are talking middle school/high school
hire enough teachers and build enough schools to have those smaller class sizes.
Wrong wrong wrong - It is more efficient to use existing resources including computer technology at home. In my family, as I said we skipped grade school and high school and the lack of seat time and two or three classes a week were just as good as 5 classes a week.
let us actually work on our work days. we would love to spend our work days working, rather than attending a mandatory 7 hour long workshop telling us how and why we should be working.
okay, but I also think the summer vacation should be eliminated. That would be time to hold remedial or advanced classes.
the 'ability' grouping thing may work hypothetically, but we don't get that option - we'll never be able to hand pick our students. and it would really not work well for the 100 sophomore students in one class who can't even read at a sixth grade level - because there are plenty of them to go around.
class size matters a *lot*.
even if you had 50 or 60 of the brightest of the bright, highly motivated, wanting to learn, sitting in your classroom, it just wouldn't work on a large scale because of the maturity factor of the age groups involved. yes, they do that in college, but college students are there because they want to be, generally, and they know they'll have hell to pay if they screw around and waste their parents' tuition money. public school won't reflect that in the least.
this is exactly why we should cut off 10th-12th grade. It spreads out the teachers allowing for smaller class sizes, stops some of the repetition of concepts that they just have to retake in college, give's the kids more time to work allowing them to earn money to help support themselves, physically makes them more active so less chance of obesity, and less time to get in trouble.
Edit to add: I don't complain about teachers pay. I have three children and realized i would have trouble homeschooling my youngest which to me meant they all went to public school. I couldn't afford private school as a single parent. I have experienced good and bad teachers, so the union needs work but that goes the same for all union jobs.0 -
well said.
I am a daughter of teachers and former teachers aide until I received my greatest student of all, my son.
If it weren't for all the "over paid babysitters" we wouldn't have drs or lawyers, or business starters or police or any kind of society what-so- ever. Teachers should be treated with the same respect as the president because guess what, a teacher put him there. You guys are WAAAAAY under paid. Education is the most important thing this country has to handle and it has always been on the back burner. 100K a year (at least), free insurance, and able to retire with full pay at 50.... that's my plan, if I had a say in it.
Saying education put the president in office is not necessarily a good recommendation.0 -
just realized that i never gave my spin on what i would do differently if i were in charge. so here goes:
smaller class sizes. fifteen or less, no exceptions. it is impossible to give the degree of individualized attention that students need when you have 30+ children crammed into a room.
Disagree - class size is irrelevant if you do ability grouping. You cold have 100 in the class and do a better job with ability grouping than having a class of 15 with all mixed ability. By the way, I assume you are talking middle school/high school
hire enough teachers and build enough schools to have those smaller class sizes.
Wrong wrong wrong - It is more efficient to use existing resources including computer technology at home. In my family, as I said we skipped grade school and high school and the lack of seat time and two or three classes a week were just as good as 5 classes a week.
let us actually work on our work days. we would love to spend our work days working, rather than attending a mandatory 7 hour long workshop telling us how and why we should be working.
okay, but I also think the summer vacation should be eliminated. That would be time to hold remedial or advanced classes.
the 'ability' grouping thing may work hypothetically, but we don't get that option - we'll never be able to hand pick our students. and it would really not work well for the 100 sophomore students in one class who can't even read at a sixth grade level - because there are plenty of them to go around.
class size matters a *lot*.
even if you had 50 or 60 of the brightest of the bright, highly motivated, wanting to learn, sitting in your classroom, it just wouldn't work on a large scale because of the maturity factor of the age groups involved. yes, they do that in college, but college students are there because they want to be, generally, and they know they'll have hell to pay if they screw around and waste their parents' tuition money. public school won't reflect that in the least.
this is exactly why we should cut off 10th-12th grade. It spreads out the teachers allowing for smaller class sizes, stops some of the repetition of concepts that they just have to retake in college, give's the kids more time to work allowing them to earn money to help support themselves, physically makes them more active so less chance of obesity, and less time to get in trouble.
Edit to add: I don't complain about teachers pay. I have three children and realized i would have trouble homeschooling my youngest which to me meant they all went to public school. I couldn't afford private school as a single parent. I have experienced good and bad teachers, so the union needs work but that goes the same for all union jobs.
This is absolutely true. High school is mostly a waste of time. As I have said previously on this board, my kids both skipped high school (and grade school) and went from the home school directly into college. Community Colleges are great. They have remedial courses there that pretty much cover everything learned in high school in four or five courses. And their other courses are first and second year college courses that are far more interesting the the busy-work loaded high school courses.
Those of you teachers who have had problems with students who weren't interested in learning might take heed. If the courses are interesting the students will come. If you want to know how it is done in an urban setting read John Taylor Gotto. (Of course, there is also Jaime Escalantes who I keep referring to.)
Anyway, from personal experience, my kids, son, age 19 now in law school, having graduated with honors from our state university, and daughter, age 16 now entering our state university as a junior, did not miss a thing by skipping high school. The kids at the community college they attended right after what was effectively 8th grade were no further ahead than my kids were, and in fact, in most cases were behind them. These high school graduates in community college were kids who for a large part got nothing out of high school and now were paying their own money to try to get into an environment where they could learn, so they definitely had the motivation. It was the schools that failed them. I could tell you dozens of stories, and I already have mentioned some. but you can read about it in thre book I am going to write.
There were thirty or forty kids in our community college who were homeschoolers or who, for some other reason had just dropped out of high school. They were all , pretty much from the same area of Connecticut, and were not from poverty areas. Nonetheless, they, like me found that the upscale high schools in our area were just a waste of time. Virtually all of these homeschool/drop out kids were success stories. One is currently in graduate school at Brown, some went to other colleges such as Trinity, Wesleyan, UConn, my 19 year old son is in law school, etc. Not experiencing high school, and in most cases grade school, didn't hurt them a bit, and this is a large enough population so that one should be able to make some statistical correlations and draw some general principles from this group. I am hoping my book will be a blockbuster in terms stimulating reform of the very broken school system that mostly exists for the union, and not for the kids.
By the way, the average class size in this community college is about 40, and none of the younger kids, the homeschoolers, had any difficulty with that number. Small class size, in my opinion, is meaningless beyond the elementary grades, and they are being pushed for one reason only: the union wants to create more teacher jobs. They are a waste of taxpayer money and other resources.0 -
Those of you teachers who have had problems with students who weren't interested in learning might take heed. If the courses are interesting the students will come. If you want to know how it is done in an urban setting read John Taylor Gotto. (Of course, there is also Jaime Escalantes who I keep referring to.)
you keep saying this like all students want to learn. this just isn't true. it's called a bell curve. you have yet to suggest what the system do with the thousands of minors that would choose not to show up at all and hang out on the streets all day.
the implication that all students don't like class because it's not interesting enough is just silly. what about all of the 13 year olds that already have their own children? what about my high school cellist that had two children by her own father? you are completely cutting them out from your formula, and whether you know them or like them, they are still there - hundreds of thousands of these children in every community, whether you see them or not. you are discounting any solution to this aspect of education, because in public education, you deal with who walks through the door - there is no choice involved.
and as for your two super-teacher-heros, they both retired in 1991 - more than 20 years ago. pre-internet/pocket-computer/won't-it-be-a-great-idea-if-i-send-naked-pics-to-my-boyfriend-he'll-never-show-anyone. i don't think their experiences would be relevant anymore.
i can see a lot of your arguments, but you are cutting out huge factors that still have to be dealt with on some level. you are just sweeping them under the carpetThere were thirty or forty kids in our community college who were homeschoolers or who, for some other reason had just dropped out of high school. They were all , pretty much from the same area of Connecticut, and were not from poverty areas. Nonetheless, they, like me found that the upscale high schools in our area were just a waste of time. Virtually all of these homeschool/drop out kids were success stories. One is currently in graduate school at Brown, some went to other colleges such as Trinity, Wesleyan, UConn, my 19 year old son is in law school, etc. Not experiencing high school, and in most cases grade school, didn't hurt them a bit, and this is a large enough population so that one should be able to make some statistical correlations and draw some general principles from this group.
this is typical of public schools too. my husband's high school class last year racked up several million dollars in scholarships, many full rides to ivy league, so i don't think your stats have quite as much bearing on the matter as you think. going through 12 years of public school didn't seem to hurt these students that thrived so well. sounds like a stalemate to me.
if you jump to the inplication that going to high school or not going to high school can give students the same results, it's probably not anything the type of education is doing, but the intrinsic motivation of those particular students.By the way, the average class size in this community college is about 40, and none of the younger kids, the homeschoolers, had any difficulty with that number. Small class size, in my opinion, is meaningless beyond the elementary grades, and they are being pushed for one reason only: the union wants to create more teacher jobs. They are a waste of taxpayer money and other resources.
put them in a class of 40 when they are not paying for the education and see if there is a difference. that would be the way to effectively compare this.0 -
alright, teach-peeps - i'm off to an interview - wish me luck! :bigsmile:0
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alright, teach-peeps - i'm off to an interview - wish me luck! :bigsmile:
Good luck!0 -
Those of you teachers who have had problems with students who weren't interested in learning might take heed. If the courses are interesting the students will come. If you want to know how it is done in an urban setting read John Taylor Gotto. (Of course, there is also Jaime Escalantes who I keep referring to.)
you keep saying this like all students want to learn. this just isn't true. it's called a bell curve. you have yet to suggest what the system do with the thousands of minors that would choose not to show up at all and hang out on the streets all day.
The bell curve relates to intelligence, not desire to learn. I think public school should only be for those with a desire to learn. Period.
the implication that all students don't like class because it's not interesting enough is just silly. what about all of the 13 year olds that already have their own children? what about my high school cellist that had two children by her own father? you are completely cutting them out from your formula, and whether you know them or like them, they are still there - hundreds of thousands of these children in every community, whether you see them or not. you are discounting any solution to this aspect of education, because in public education, you deal with who walks through the door - there is no choice involved.
If a 13 year old with a kid has a desire to learn, she should be in school if she can manage it. Her first responsibilitiy is to her babies. Frankly, I have met some kids like that. Inner city kids who learned that the more kids you had, the more welfare you got. I think the people who designed our welfare system should be in jail. Certainly the father you are mentioning should be in jail.
and as for your two super-teacher-heros, they both retired in 1991 - more than 20 years ago. pre-internet/pocket-computer/won't-it-be-a-great-idea-if-i-send-naked-pics-to-my-boyfriend-he'll-never-show-anyone. i don't think their experiences would be relevant anymore.
No way! These two were bucking the system then, and their lessons are still true. If what the system allows is not working, the buck the freaken system. Do what works and screw the administrators. Of course it will probably cost you your job, but you will be a hero, and if enough people do it, the system will change.
i can see a lot of your arguments, but you are cutting out huge factors that still have to be dealt with on some level. you are just sweeping them under the carpet
What factors?There were thirty or forty kids in our community college who were homeschoolers or who, for some other reason had just dropped out of high school. They were all , pretty much from the same area of Connecticut, and were not from poverty areas. Nonetheless, they, like me found that the upscale high schools in our area were just a waste of time. Virtually all of these homeschool/drop out kids were success stories. One is currently in graduate school at Brown, some went to other colleges such as Trinity, Wesleyan, UConn, my 19 year old son is in law school, etc. Not experiencing high school, and in most cases grade school, didn't hurt them a bit, and this is a large enough population so that one should be able to make some statistical correlations and draw some general principles from this group.
this is typical of public schools too. my husband's high school class last year racked up several million dollars in scholarships, many full rides to ivy league, so i don't think your stats have quite as much bearing on the matter as you think. going through 12 years of public school didn't seem to hurt these students that thrived so well. sounds like a stalemate to me.
I don't doubt that there are great Ivy League candidates from public schools. I was one myself ( full scholarship University of Pennsylvania.) However, read that post by the Community College Adjunct. I believe that was the most important post put on this board. She said, "95% of the kids she teaches, almost all high school grads, cannot read or write or do simple math." That says something about the public schools in this day and age. Her experience is confirmed by the kids I met at our community college. And these kids really want to learn. Many are going to school even though they do not have enough to eat.
Tell me that is not the fault of the public school system.
if you jump to the inplication that going to high school or not going to high school can give students the same results, it's probably not anything the type of education is doing, but the intrinsic motivation of those particular students.
Actually, if high school is a non factor, then why bother with it?By the way, the average class size in this community college is about 40, and none of the younger kids, the homeschoolers, had any difficulty with that number. Small class size, in my opinion, is meaningless beyond the elementary grades, and they are being pushed for one reason only: the union wants to create more teacher jobs. They are a waste of taxpayer money and other resources.
put them in a class of 40 when they are not paying for the education and see if there is a difference. that would be the way to effectively compare this.
Come on! Now that is just silly! Are you saying that kids purposely screw up in high school so they can go to community college and pay for what they were supposed to be getting for free?0 -
What factors?
what do you propose the system do with all of the children that choose not to go to school because they have no interest in learning?Tell me that is not the fault of the public school system.
i've never told you the public school system isn't screwed. i've just said that it's not the fault of the teachers doing the best with what they have. when a third grade student can't read, and their teacher wants to hold them back but they are passed through against that teacher's judgement, how is that the teacher's fault? when that same student is now a junior and still can't read, how is that the high school teacher's fault?
i guess they could make a big stink, as you suggest, get fired and take one for the team, but what if they have their own children to care for and feed? would you risk that? (and even if you say yes, i wouldn't believe you until you actually did it) i would not.
the only people who should be preaching about bucking the system and taking one for the team are people who have actually done so. it's silly to suggest or expect people to sacrifice their jobs to change something out of their control in the first place.
anytime i look at the list of training courses we have to take for our renewal credits, i always think to myself, 'wouldn't it be nice if, instead of teacher renewal credits, they had parent renewal credits?!' because really, the major flaw in the public school system is that parents are not being held responsible for their own children's development and actions, but how will that kind of thing ever be regulated or repaired?The bell curve relates to intelligence, not desire to learn.
i disagree. some students want to learn everything for the sake of learning, down to the most minute details. some students want to learn just enough to make a 'b' or 'c' in their class and graduate. some would rather count the tiles on the ceiling. there's going to be all kinds of bell curves dealing with individual students.Actually, if high school is a non factor, then why bother with it?
you could say the same about homeshooling.Come on! Now that is just silly! Are you saying that kids purposely screw up in high school so they can go to community college and pay for what they were supposed to be getting for free?
no, that's not silly at all. public school is something they have gone to every day since age 5 or 6. it's been a constant in their lives, and there is no money paid to participate. now, they are in a new situation, with new students around from different places, probably in a room that is much better and nicer than what they were accustomed to, with the knowledge that money is being exchanged for their seat in that program. of course they will see it differently and, most likely, take it more seriously.0 -
However, read that post by the Community College Adjunct. I believe that was the most important post put on this board. She said, "95% of the kids she teaches, almost all high school grads, cannot read or write or do simple math." That says something about the public schools in this day and age. Her experience is confirmed by the kids I met at our community college. And these kids really want to learn. Many are going to school even though they do not have enough to eat. Tell me that is not the fault of the public school system.
yes, i saw this too. but, i'm not totally sold. if she were teaching freshman classes at a state university, her story would probably be different. there is a good chance that a lot of the students she is teaching screwed around, and now that all of their friends have gone off to far away place, they are ready to be serious with their studies. not all of them, of course, but probaby a fair percentage.
but yes, basic reading and math have taken the backburner to make way for the new and improved '21st century classroom'. and that is a total crock. you have to teach long division on the sly - they only support calculator division in our county.
but my point is, as screwed up as that is, we have to work around it somehow. i would never voluntarily cut long division from a math course, and neither would any teacher i know! the powers that be send crap down the line, and we have to adapt to it some how. the kids i tutor go to a private school, and in the first paragraph of their mission statement, they talk about how they can teach students to think and learn because they are not held to testing standards that public schools are. we just don't have that freedom. we have to work it in where we can without getting a write up. it's definitely a sad state, i'm in total agreement with you there. but it's not individual teacher's faults that this is happening - it's on a much deeper level than that.0 -
What factors?
what do you propose the system do with all of the children that choose not to go to school because they have no interest in learning?
Put them in what we used to call "trade school." If they do not want that, then do nothing with them. It is not the government's role to manage peoples' lives. If people are too stupid to act in their own interests, then let them discover where they are on their own.Tell me that is not the fault of the public school system.
i've never told you the public school system isn't screwed. i've just said that it's not the fault of the teachers doing the best with what they have. when a third grade student can't read, and their teacher wants to hold them back but they are passed through against that teacher's judgement, how is that the teacher's fault? when that same student is now a junior and still can't read, how is that the high school teacher's fault?
Note : The final decision is yours, the teacher. The administrator doesn't sign the papers, you do. There is a reason for that. It is YOUR DECISION, and administrators don't want the responsibility to end with them. If, on the other hand you accept the responsibility, it is highly unlikely that the administrators will undo your decision. You just need the guts to take them on.
i guess they could make a big stink, as you suggest, get fired and take one for the team, but what if they have their own children to care for and feed? would you risk that? (and even if you say yes, i wouldn't believe you until you actually did it) i would not.
This is the mentality they count on. Just like the Army.
the only people who should be preaching about bucking the system and taking one for the team are people who have actually done so. it's silly to suggest or expect people to sacrifice their jobs to change something out of their control in the first place.
I suggest that by homeschooling we did just that. We told the school system that they stunk and we wanted no part of them. We also went to the newspapers and caused them considerable embarassment.
anytime i look at the list of training courses we have to take for our renewal credits, i always think to myself, 'wouldn't it be nice if, instead of teacher renewal credits, they had parent renewal credits?!' because really, the major flaw in the public school system is that parents are not being held responsible for their own children's development and actions, but how will that kind of thing ever be regulated or repaired?
Okay, since my children were babies, I have heard the same mantra: When there are education success stories, the teachers take the credit. Where there are failures, the parents get the blame. Sorry you cannot have it both ways. Either the teachers are responsible for both successes and failures, or the parents are. But you cannot use the parents as scapegoats when you fail.
My personal opinion is that all the responsibility for success or failure rests entirely with the parents and that is how it should be. Teachers are nothing more than facilitators, and have very little effect on the final outcome. Once you realize that, their role is clarified, and they are of secondary importance in the educational process. The burden for education should be on the parents, period.The bell curve relates to intelligence, not desire to learn.
i disagree. some students want to learn everything for the sake of learning, down to the most minute details. some students want to learn just enough to make a 'b' or 'c' in their class and graduate. some would rather count the tiles on the ceiling. there's going to be all kinds of bell curves dealing with individual students.
No, no, and no. The bell shaped curve, in common parlence relates to IQ only. I suppose you can have a bell shaped curve for ambition, but that is not the common meaning of the term.Actually, if high school is a non factor, then why bother with it?
you could say the same about homeshooling.
No. As I said above, success or failure mostly depends on the home. Other educational models are secondary.Come on! Now that is just silly! Are you saying that kids purposely screw up in high school so they can go to community college and pay for what they were supposed to be getting for free?
no, that's not silly at all. public school is something they have gone to every day since age 5 or 6. it's been a constant in their lives, and there is no money paid to participate. now, they are in a new situation, with new students around from different places, probably in a room that is much better and nicer than what they were accustomed to, with the knowledge that money is being exchanged for their seat in that program. of course they will see it differently and, most likely, take it more seriously.
You may have a point in some cases. However, 95%? I don't think so.0 -
Note : The final decision is yours, the teacher. The administrator doesn't sign the papers, you do. There is a reason for that. It is YOUR DECISION, and administrators don't want the responsibility to end with them. If, on the other hand you accept the responsibility, it is highly unlikely that the administrators will undo your decision. You just need the guts to take them on.
*snort* sillliness. it is *not* highly unlikely for administration to change your decisions. especially when money or athletics are involved. maybe a union would help with this, but we don't have those. but you've never played in that field, so i understand why you might think this.If they do not want that, then do nothing with them. It is not the government's role to manage peoples' lives. If people are too stupid to act in their own interests, then let them discover where they are on their own.
you will have to revamp waaaay more than the education system for this to happen. keep dreaming.
edited to say: my husband would like to add that if you went this route, they would all be breaking into your house. maybe not yours, in this utopia that you seem to live, but in a lot of other places with a large poor population.This is the mentality they count on. Just like the Army.
we're all entitled to our opinions, i suppose. i just happen to find yours a bit strange.I suggest that by homeschooling we did just that. We told the school system that they stunk and we wanted no part of them. We also went to the newspapers and caused them considerable embarassment.
i would need to know more details about this to agree. you could be a trust fund baby for all i know. not trying to dig for details of your life here, just saying...Okay, since my children were babies, I have heard the same mantra: When there are education success stories, the teachers take the credit. Where there are failures, the parents get the blame. Sorry you cannot have it both ways. Either the teachers are responsible for both successes and failures, or the parents are. But you cannot use the parents as scapegoats when you fail.
the flip side of that coin is saying that when students succeed it's because of the parents, and when students fail it is because of the teacher, and that happens just as often. teachers are used as scapegoats just as much if not more often. this argument is a name calling contest.
and *most* often, students are responsible for their own success or failure.My personal opinion is that all the responsibility for success or failure rests entirely with the parents and that is how it should be. Teachers are nothing more than facilitators, and have very little effect on the final outcome. Once you realize that, their role is clarified, and they are of secondary importance in the educational process. The burden for education should be on the parents, period.
if this is how you feel, then why are you crapping on public school teachers instead of all of the unenlightened parents that send their children there? of course responsibility should rest on the parents! but it doesn't. and it won't. you just said yourself that the government shouldn't be managing people's lives, so if a parent has no involvement whatsoever in their child's life because they are selling drugs most of the night and cracked out most of the day, who is going to stop this?No, no, and no. The bell shaped curve, in common parlence relates to IQ only. I suppose you can have a bell shaped curve for ambition, but that is not the common meaning of the term.
that's fine - we don't have to call it a bell curve. but whatever you call it, you should recognized that children are not cookie-cutter copies of each other, all put into the same mold of wanting to learn and better themselves. they are not little brainiac armies to move around the board. there is no blanket large enough to cover every student because children are so individualized.
when i was in high school, i was pretty smart, but i almost didn't graduate because i didn't feel like doing my work. ever. was this my parent's or my teacher's fault? no. it was mine, and my seventeen-year-old stubborn mindset that i didn't have to anything if i didn't want. so i didn't. where would you place my high school self in your plan? send me home and have one of my parents quit their job to babysit me? put me in a trade school to where i never would have gotten my diploma? because i eventually came around enough to get through. of course, then i flunked out of college twice, before i went a third time at the age of twenty and was finally ready to get to business.
it was roundabout and it took a long time, and i suppose because of that, it was all a waste of tax money. and of course, none of it was my fault - just my teachers' and parents'.
where would my high school self fit on your nonexistant bell curve? there are simply too many factors that go into the makeup and personality of a child, the situation they come from and live in, the dynamics of a community or school, for *anyone* to have an actual answer to all of this. but is pretty fun to spar!0 -
Note : The final decision is yours, the teacher. The administrator doesn't sign the papers, you do. There is a reason for that. It is YOUR DECISION, and administrators don't want the responsibility to end with them. If, on the other hand you accept the responsibility, it is highly unlikely that the administrators will undo your decision. You just need the guts to take them on.
*snort* sillliness. it is *not* highly unlikely for administration to change your decisions. especially when money or athletics are involved. maybe a union would help with this, but we don't have those. but you've never played in that field, so i understand why you might think this.
The difference between John Taylor Gotto and Jaime Escalantes was that unlike tens of thousands of other teachers they would not pushed into doing what they knew was wrong. I know that eventually that cost Gotto his job but he made more than a great living after that writing books and giving lectures to people like me who knew something was wrong with the system but needed an insider to focus on what the problem actually was.If they do not want that, then do nothing with them. It is not the government's role to manage peoples' lives. If people are too stupid to act in their own interests, then let them discover where they are on their own.
you will have to revamp waaaay more than the education system for this to happen. keep dreaming.
No I don't. What do you think kids who don't want to go to school are doing with their time now? If they are not hanging around street corners, they are acting like wise a@@es in somebody's classroom. Please, if you do nothing else after this debate, see the movie STAND AND DELIVER.
edited to say: my husband would like to add that if you went this route, they would all be breaking into your house. maybe not yours, in this utopia that you seem to live, but in a lot of other places with a large poor population.
There is no crime in my town, but in places like Hartford, there is already tons of it. Again, what do you think they are doing anyway, even with the school system?This is the mentality they count on. Just like the Army.
we're all entitled to our opinions, i suppose. i just happen to find yours a bit strange.
Is it better to be a sheep or a wolf?I suggest that by homeschooling we did just that. We told the school system that they stunk and we wanted no part of them. We also went to the newspapers and caused them considerable embarassment.
i would need to know more details about this to agree. you could be a trust fund baby for all i know. not trying to dig for details of your life here, just saying...
Oh, you outted me! Yeah, you are right, my father, the drunken janitor and my mother the cafeteria cook set up this massive multi-million dollar trust fund for me and I haven't had to work a day in my life. How did you figure that out?Okay, since my children were babies, I have heard the same mantra: When there are education success stories, the teachers take the credit. Where there are failures, the parents get the blame. Sorry you cannot have it both ways. Either the teachers are responsible for both successes and failures, or the parents are. But you cannot use the parents as scapegoats when you fail.
the flip side of that coin is saying that when students succeed it's because of the parents, and when students fail it is because of the teacher, and that happens just as often. teachers are used as scapegoats just as much if not more often. this argument is a name calling contest.
and *most* often, students are responsible for their own success or failure.
Who motivates the students? If you see yourself as the primary resource in the education of your students, then you are indeed the one responsible for success or failure. If not, then you are tangential to the process.My personal opinion is that all the responsibility for success or failure rests entirely with the parents and that is how it should be. Teachers are nothing more than facilitators, and have very little effect on the final outcome. Once you realize that, their role is clarified, and they are of secondary importance in the educational process. The burden for education should be on the parents, period.
if this is how you feel, then why are you crapping on public school teachers instead of all of the unenlightened parents that send their children there? of course responsibility should rest on the parents! but it doesn't. and it won't. you just said yourself that the government shouldn't be managing people's lives, so if a parent has no involvement whatsoever in their child's life because they are selling drugs most of the night and cracked out most of the day, who is going to stop this?
Not the teacher's union. Unless they are going to give you the training of a Navy Seal, it is really beyond your ability to change anything and for that matter, none of your business. You are not going to change a crack head into a responsible member of society, so don't even try. And if the kid has no father and a crack head for a mother, then he is lost. Your inner liberal may not want to believe that, and you may actually know of three or four exceptions, but unless you are Jaime Escalantes or are willing to do what he did, you are just another tree in the kid's forest.No, no, and no. The bell shaped curve, in common parlence relates to IQ only. I suppose you can have a bell shaped curve for ambition, but that is not the common meaning of the term.
that's fine - we don't have to call it a bell curve. but whatever you call it, you should recognized that children are not cookie-cutter copies of each other, all put into the same mold of wanting to learn and better themselves. they are not little brainiac armies to move around the board. there is no blanket large enough to cover every student because children are so individualized.
Ah, I believe I was the one who first said that in the context of this discussion. Of course kids have different levels of ambition. Those with the highest levels should be separated from the others and put on the track for academic achievement. Others should be tracked accordingly. Ability grouping. God's give to anyone who wants the best educational system possible.
when i was in high school, i was pretty smart, but i almost didn't graduate because i didn't feel like doing my work. ever. was this my parent's or my teacher's fault? no. it was mine, and my seventeen-year-old stubborn mindset that i didn't have to anything if i didn't want. so i didn't. where would you place my high school self in your plan?
If you were my daughter, I would have royally kicked your a@@. I would have said, you don't want to study? Fine, get a job if you want to eat. Start paying rent. You don't like it? Move out.
send me home and have one of my parents quit their job to babysit me? put me in a trade school to where i never would have gotten my diploma? because i eventually came around enough to get through. of course, then i flunked out of college twice, before i went a third time at the age of twenty and was finally ready to get to business.
It sounds like you were an enormous expense to someone, probably your parents. It sounds like ECS to me. (Entitled Chick Syndrome.)
it was roundabout and it took a long time, and i suppose because of that, it was all a waste of tax money.
Probably. Maybe not.
and of course, none of it was my fault - just my teachers' and parents'.
where would my high school self fit on your nonexistant bell curve?
Franly, I wouldn't waste any time on you until you became an adult and matured.
there are simply too many factors that go into the makeup and personality of a child, the situation they come from and live in, the dynamics of a community or school, for *anyone* to have an actual answer to all of this. but is pretty fun to spar!
Enjoy!0 -
The difference between John Taylor Gotto and Jaime Escalantes was that unlike tens of thousands of other teachers they would not pushed into doing what they knew was wrong. I know that eventually that cost Gotto his job but he made more than a great living after that writing books and giving lectures to people like me who knew something was wrong with the system but needed an insider to focus on what the problem actually was.
this is getting old. and i still don't think anyone at their teaching prime in the 1970's has any relevance on today's education, other than the vague and pragmatic cry of 'down with the system'! i think you see some teacher/administrative show down in the hallway with a meek, pretty secretary looking on, secretly hoping the rugged young teacher doesn't get fired so she can finally tell him she loves him. but then he does get fired and it turns out all for the best, because now the teacher is rich and he can write books about how he doesn't teach kids anymore but he used to, and the lovely and shy secretary can let the embers of truth and justice smolder in her heart as she fondly remembers her hero/crush and exits stage left. gag. i can't believe i just typed all that.
it usually goes like this.
enter grade: F
think to self: it's too bad he's going to end up in my class again next fall - maybe he'll pull it together.
over summer, read a school update that says: the very student you failed has just accepted a basketball scholarship to a state university. grade was changed and diploma awarded behind your back.
:noway: !!!Frankly, I wouldn't waste any time on you until you became an adult and matured.
this seems to be your bottom line. but most people don't become an adult and mature until 17 at best, never at worst. what will you do with this mass of children not ready to learn, for whatever their reasons?
and whatever crime rate is in hartford, it would increase *dramatically* if all of the behavioral problem kids didn't show up to school and just went about their business every day.
i think i just thought of a solution for you! you need a modern day specialized black plague to come and wipe out 75% of the population, preferably the kids that have so much on their plate (poverty, crime, abuse) that education is not a top priority, and their parents. then you can start from scratch! then they wouldn't be in the classrooms or on the streets - i think that might work for you!
and here's a (partially) funny story i think you might appreciate:
my husband just had one of his students sent to prison for stealing his grandmother's (who is raising him) car and wrecking it. he picked up several friends, and one of the girls that went with him is in critical condition. the grandmother is leaving him there and refusing to pay bail, so he is stuck there until further notice. he's fifteen, but he's not in juvenille, he's in prison. my husband says that over the semester, he only attended class two or three times per week, generally because he was out on suspensions.
here's the funny part:
my husband is required by law (don't know if this is federal or just nc) to still administor the end-of-grade course to this kid, and has to have the materials delivered to the prison school within five days in order for him to do this. and of course, this kid's score will be reported under my husband's record, so people can wonder why he failed teach this kid enough to pass a test.
ps~if any of this goes in your book, i want a cut! 0 -
If you were my daughter, I would have royally kicked your a@@. I would have said, you don't want to study? Fine, get a job if you want to eat. Start paying rent. You don't like it? Move out.
your 14 or 15 year old daughter? right. uh-huh. sure. they couldn't even get a worker's permit in our state. perhaps you could put her up for adoption.0 -
Note : The final decision is yours, the teacher. The administrator doesn't sign the papers, you do. There is a reason for that. It is YOUR DECISION, and administrators don't want the responsibility to end with them. If, on the other hand you accept the responsibility, it is highly unlikely that the administrators will undo your decision. You just need the guts to take them on.
*snort* sillliness. it is *not* highly unlikely for administration to change your decisions. especially when money or athletics are involved. maybe a union would help with this, but we don't have those. but you've never played in that field, so i understand why you might think this.
The difference between John Taylor Gotto and Jaime Escalantes was that unlike tens of thousands of other teachers they would not pushed into doing what they knew was wrong. I know that eventually that cost Gotto his job but he made more than a great living after that writing books and giving lectures to people like me who knew something was wrong with the system but needed an insider to focus on what the problem actually was.If they do not want that, then do nothing with them. It is not the government's role to manage peoples' lives. If people are too stupid to act in their own interests, then let them discover where they are on their own.
you will have to revamp waaaay more than the education system for this to happen. keep dreaming.
No I don't. What do you think kids who don't want to go to school are doing with their time now? If they are not hanging around street corners, they are acting like wise a@@es in somebody's classroom. Please, if you do nothing else after this debate, see the movie STAND AND DELIVER.
edited to say: my husband would like to add that if you went this route, they would all be breaking into your house. maybe not yours, in this utopia that you seem to live, but in a lot of other places with a large poor population.
There is no crime in my town, but in places like Hartford, there is already tons of it. Again, what do you think they are doing anyway, even with the school system?This is the mentality they count on. Just like the Army.
we're all entitled to our opinions, i suppose. i just happen to find yours a bit strange.
Is it better to be a sheep or a wolf?I suggest that by homeschooling we did just that. We told the school system that they stunk and we wanted no part of them. We also went to the newspapers and caused them considerable embarassment.
i would need to know more details about this to agree. you could be a trust fund baby for all i know. not trying to dig for details of your life here, just saying...
Oh, you outted me! Yeah, you are right, my father, the drunken janitor and my mother the cafeteria cook set up this massive multi-million dollar trust fund for me and I haven't had to work a day in my life. How did you figure that out?Okay, since my children were babies, I have heard the same mantra: When there are education success stories, the teachers take the credit. Where there are failures, the parents get the blame. Sorry you cannot have it both ways. Either the teachers are responsible for both successes and failures, or the parents are. But you cannot use the parents as scapegoats when you fail.
the flip side of that coin is saying that when students succeed it's because of the parents, and when students fail it is because of the teacher, and that happens just as often. teachers are used as scapegoats just as much if not more often. this argument is a name calling contest.
and *most* often, students are responsible for their own success or failure.
Who motivates the students? If you see yourself as the primary resource in the education of your students, then you are indeed the one responsible for success or failure. If not, then you are tangential to the process.My personal opinion is that all the responsibility for success or failure rests entirely with the parents and that is how it should be. Teachers are nothing more than facilitators, and have very little effect on the final outcome. Once you realize that, their role is clarified, and they are of secondary importance in the educational process. The burden for education should be on the parents, period.
if this is how you feel, then why are you crapping on public school teachers instead of all of the unenlightened parents that send their children there? of course responsibility should rest on the parents! but it doesn't. and it won't. you just said yourself that the government shouldn't be managing people's lives, so if a parent has no involvement whatsoever in their child's life because they are selling drugs most of the night and cracked out most of the day, who is going to stop this?
Not the teacher's union. Unless they are going to give you the training of a Navy Seal, it is really beyond your ability to change anything and for that matter, none of your business. You are not going to change a crack head into a responsible member of society, so don't even try. And if the kid has no father and a crack head for a mother, then he is lost. Your inner liberal may not want to believe that, and you may actually know of three or four exceptions, but unless you are Jaime Escalantes or are willing to do what he did, you are just another tree in the kid's forest.No, no, and no. The bell shaped curve, in common parlence relates to IQ only. I suppose you can have a bell shaped curve for ambition, but that is not the common meaning of the term.
that's fine - we don't have to call it a bell curve. but whatever you call it, you should recognized that children are not cookie-cutter copies of each other, all put into the same mold of wanting to learn and better themselves. they are not little brainiac armies to move around the board. there is no blanket large enough to cover every student because children are so individualized.
Ah, I believe I was the one who first said that in the context of this discussion. Of course kids have different levels of ambition. Those with the highest levels should be separated from the others and put on the track for academic achievement. Others should be tracked accordingly. Ability grouping. God's give to anyone who wants the best educational system possible.
when i was in high school, i was pretty smart, but i almost didn't graduate because i didn't feel like doing my work. ever. was this my parent's or my teacher's fault? no. it was mine, and my seventeen-year-old stubborn mindset that i didn't have to anything if i didn't want. so i didn't. where would you place my high school self in your plan?
If you were my daughter, I would have royally kicked your a@@. I would have said, you don't want to study? Fine, get a job if you want to eat. Start paying rent. You don't like it? Move out.
send me home and have one of my parents quit their job to babysit me? put me in a trade school to where i never would have gotten my diploma? because i eventually came around enough to get through. of course, then i flunked out of college twice, before i went a third time at the age of twenty and was finally ready to get to business.
It sounds like you were an enormous expense to someone, probably your parents. It sounds like ECS to me. (Entitled Chick Syndrome.)
it was roundabout and it took a long time, and i suppose because of that, it was all a waste of tax money.
Probably. Maybe not.
and of course, none of it was my fault - just my teachers' and parents'.
where would my high school self fit on your nonexistant bell curve?
Franly, I wouldn't waste any time on you until you became an adult and matured.
there are simply too many factors that go into the makeup and personality of a child, the situation they come from and live in, the dynamics of a community or school, for *anyone* to have an actual answer to all of this. but is pretty fun to spar!
Enjoy!
Veg - if I'm following the progression of this conversation correctly - I'm glad you are not a teacher in a public school. I can't believe that you would write kids off the way that you seem to do. That's all I have to say at this point.0 -
Veg - if I'm following the progression of this conversation correctly - I'm glad you are not a teacher in a public school. I can't believe that you would write kids off the way that you seem to do. That's all I have to say at this point.
Iuangina,
I am writing nobody off, but I am also realistic. Very probably, unlike you, I grew up in a housing project, and I lived among, and had to survive among the little pieces of crap you are so anxious to spend pulbic money on to "Save." Admittedly, this was a long time ago, before the welfare culture, and just at the beginning of big time drugs (but not before alcohol.) When I see some of the do-gooder comments on this board I realize that most of you have no clue whatsoever. LIberal bleeding heartism has never worked, and has only created a culture that if anything is much worse than it was when I went to public school.
The hard reality is that there are only so many resources. Unlike certain political leaders, I know that you cannot spend more than you have. Period. The only sane policy is to help those who want to be helped and let the others drift out to sea. Only when people realize that education is good and that it is worth spending time on will you have any success. As long as you keep trying to shove it down their throats they will resist it. I know these people. You don't.
I was the first person in my family and in my housing project to go to college. I was probably the only person from that place EVER to go to an Ivy League College and I had a full ride. I thank my mother for that, since she always preached to me that education was the way to get to a better life. My father could care less, bytheway.
The sane policy is to make education a reward, not a threat. Let kids drop out of school at 16, or 14 if they want. In Hartford, 25% of the kids ENROLLED in public school do not attend. Ever. Most of the others come sporatically. Yet we are spending a lot of money, on the pretense that these kids are actually enrolled. It is a waste of money and a waste of time. If a kid is going to become a drug dealer, the existence of a school in his neighborhood isn't going to stop him. If he is going to drop out of school, the existence of laws on the books saying he has to stay in school unitl he is 18 isn't going to stop him.
Only an extraordinary teacher can make a difference. Only a Jaime Escalantes who is willing to buck the system. I have only seen a glimmer of what it takes in one or two people on this board. The rest of you are sheep, afraid to do what it really takes. Middle class. Basically you are employees, nothing more. Most of you work your day, want to go home and not be bothered. You love your summers off. You don't want to stay late to meet working parents because that would interfere with your life. Sorry, but people like what most of you are are not going to change anything. You're going to collect your salary and retire. You're going to b)tch about how hard your job is, but you will do nothing to change the system.
My teaching experience, not counting teaching at the graduate level to adults is limited to teaching Latin to homeschoolers in the wealthy suburbs. I've had over 20 students. With one or two exceptions, they wanted to learn. Two of my kids became classics majors in college. I am pretty sure I had an effect on them. However, if I offered a Latin course to kids in Hartford, how many do you think would come? In fact there is a Classical Magnet school in Hartford, and I know some of the kids who went there. They were from the burbs, not Hartford. There are some from Hartford, and spending money on those kids who actually want to be there is good use of resources. But mostly, poor kids from Hartford will not benefit from being taught Latin. Most need to learn English, and how to do basic things like write a check or a resume. Most probably don't even want to go that far.
I ask you, since we have been pushing education of the poor in this country since Lyndon Johnson, have you seen any good come of it? Sure, the kids who want to learn will lean anyway. The ones who don't won't. The state of public education in this country is worse than it has ever been after 50 years of Great Society spending. It is time to stop wasteful spending and focus on those who will actually benefit. Resources are scarce. Don't waste them.0 -
The difference between John Taylor Gotto and Jaime Escalantes was that unlike tens of thousands of other teachers they would not pushed into doing what they knew was wrong. I know that eventually that cost Gotto his job but he made more than a great living after that writing books and giving lectures to people like me who knew something was wrong with the system but needed an insider to focus on what the problem actually was.
this is getting old. and i still don't think anyone at their teaching prime in the 1970's has any relevance on today's education, other than the vague and pragmatic cry of 'down with the system'! i think you see some teacher/administrative show down in the hallway with a meek, pretty secretary looking on, secretly hoping the rugged young teacher doesn't get fired so she can finally tell him she loves him. but then he does get fired and it turns out all for the best, because now the teacher is rich and he can write books about how he doesn't teach kids anymore but he used to, and the lovely and shy secretary can let the embers of truth and justice smolder in her heart as she fondly remembers her hero/crush and exits stage left. gag. i can't believe i just typed all that.
**********************************************
That was great! You ought to be writing soaps.
***********************************************
it usually goes like this.
enter grade: F
think to self: it's too bad he's going to end up in my class again next fall - maybe he'll pull it together.
over summer, read a school update that says: the very student you failed has just accepted a basketball scholarship to a state university. grade was changed and diploma awarded behind your back.
:noway: !!!
**************************************
Frankly, the poor kid who was a lousy student but a great basketball player SHOULD have his grade changed from F to C. He has a ticket to ride, and you should not be holding him up. The ones who don't have anything going for them are the ones you need to worry about.Frankly, I wouldn't waste any time on you until you became an adult and matured.
this seems to be your bottom line. but most people don't become an adult and mature until 17 at best, never at worst. what will you do with this mass of children not ready to learn, for whatever their reasons?
**************************************
Kick them out of school. Immature brats do not deserve to have tax money spent on them.
**************************************
and whatever crime rate is in hartford, it would increase *dramatically* if all of the behavioral problem kids didn't show up to school and just went about their business every day.
**************************************
Right! And just what do you think they are doing now?
i think i just thought of a solution for you! you need a modern day specialized black plague to come and wipe out 75% of the population, preferably the kids that have so much on their plate (poverty, crime, abuse) that education is not a top priority, and their parents. then you can start from scratch! then they wouldn't be in the classrooms or on the streets - i think that might work for you!
********************************************
Spoken like a true bleeding heart.
and here's a (partially) funny story i think you might appreciate:
my husband just had one of his students sent to prison for stealing his grandmother's (who is raising him) car and wrecking it. he picked up several friends, and one of the girls that went with him is in critical condition. the grandmother is leaving him there and refusing to pay bail, so he is stuck there until further notice. he's fifteen, but he's not in juvenille, he's in prison. my husband says that over the semester, he only attended class two or three times per week, generally because he was out on suspensions.
here's the funny part:
my husband is required by law (don't know if this is federal or just nc) to still administor the end-of-grade course to this kid, and has to have the materials delivered to the prison school within five days in order for him to do this. and of course, this kid's score will be reported under my husband's record, so people can wonder why he failed teach this kid enough to pass a test.
ps~if any of this goes in your book, i want a cut!
************************************************
I love the story. Yea, Grandma! This is a good example of a little punk who has done nothing all his life but waste public and family resources. Now he will be doing hard time. He will be where he needs to be.
I love your example, but have plenty more like it for my book. The only thing that might have helped this little s@@t might have been a few swift kicks in the a@@ administered at the right time. Now he will learn what it is like to be Bubba's girlfriend. Actions have consequences.0 -
If you were my daughter, I would have royally kicked your a@@. I would have said, you don't want to study? Fine, get a job if you want to eat. Start paying rent. You don't like it? Move out.
your 14 or 15 year old daughter? right. uh-huh. sure. they couldn't even get a worker's permit in our state. perhaps you could put her up for adoption.
Whether I would actually kick her out or send her to Outward Bound, the important thing is that SHE believes I would kick her out. SHE believes failure is not an option. Plus she is actually highly motivated to write (wants to get her MFA in writing at the University of Iowa, the best writing program in the USA. )
I must have done something write (pun intended.)0 -
I am writing nobody off, but I am also realistic. Very probably, unlike you, I grew up in a housing project, and I lived among, and had to survive among the little pieces of crap you are so anxious to spend pulbic money on to "Save." Admittedly, this was a long time ago, before the welfare culture, and just at the beginning of big time drugs (but not before alcohol.) When I see some of the do-gooder comments on this board I realize that most of you have no clue whatsoever. LIberal bleeding heartism has never worked, and has only created a culture that if anything is much worse than it was when I went to public school.
The hard reality is that there are only so many resources. Unlike certain political leaders, I know that you cannot spend more than you have. Period. The only sane policy is to help those who want to be helped and let the others drift out to sea. Only when people realize that education is good and that it is worth spending time on will you have any success. As long as you keep trying to shove it down their throats they will resist it. I know these people. You don't.
MR KNOW IT ALL YOU ARE STARTING TO GET UP MY NOSE. You on here trying to patronise everyone you know best about every situation and no body else knows anything. The statement above is untrue I know these people I work with them everysingle day for the 10 years they are in my class room earning qualifications. They are the ones who are drifting out to see because they do not meet your standards but they are also the ones which get high grades in the GCSE's because our teachers help them along because they are encouraged and not forgotten about.
Page 11 you said this
I have no solution to how to educate a starving, beaten down kid who lives in a neighborhood where guns and killing are normal. To be honest with you, I don't think they can be educated. I certainly don't think that if I lived in such a neighborhood, I would be interested in anything but staying alive. The only solution may be to live long enough to join the Service.
Yet you now grew up with these no hopers and know them better than anybody else on this board. You are obviously here just to wind up everyone else.
Having looked back at previous posts of yours you change your mind an awful lot you are the person who said Children are not beans in a bag you can't lump them together and now you are saying let all the bad ones drift off to sea and only teacher the ones who want to be taught.
I have had other jobs for 9 years before i started work at the school and I really love my job with all these children that you are lumping into a bag and throwing out to see. I find everyday amazing I never ever complain about any part of it. I go in everyday and make lessons fun I teach Construction, Motor Engineering and Design Technology & every ba child who passes through leaves with a qualification. I don't get paid an awful lot but if that bothered me I would find another job just like all of you complaining we get holidays could stop moaning and become a teacher.0 -
Do you relise that some of these kids are like this because their dads did kick them up the *kitten* their parents pinned them down and beat them. You say all it takes is for a teacher to be aggressive and they will listen but thats not true. At our school in he UK we have physical handling that we can do if the children get way out of hand a way of calming them down. If a child goes home marked it is us it falls back on our jobs on the line because while pretecting ourselves this child got marked. I am proud to say that none of the teachers at our school would ever intentionally harm a child in any way because we are their to make the childs life better and not worse.
Teaching is not just to make these children pass in exams it's making sure these children have enough about them to go out in the world and survive. Everyday in my classroom I have to show I care I have to show these children that they matter it isn't a case of going in trying to get them to do as I say and leaving again these children need the hope that they do matter what with the rest of the outside world writing them off as bad rubbish.0 -
Here here!!! I'm trained as a teacher, and though im not currently teaching it annoys me when they gets such a tough break. People who haven't done it do not know how hard it is and how poor te pay is for how much time it takes up its not just a career, teaching is a way of life!!!! X0
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This happens with any profession!!! It is not only teachers! I am in medicine. Everyone thinks doctors are "rich" and just out for the big bucks. COULDN"T be further from the truth for most in the medical field! My fees have gone down every year since I have been in practice (20 years). But, I go to my office everyday and give my patients the best care I can & I still love my "job." You need to let the public comments roll off your shoulders. There are bad eggs in EVERY profession.....teachers, police, doctors, CEO's, bankers etc....that is who the general public, unfortunately, focus' on! ALL jobs have their challenges and bumps and cross' to bear! Carry them with grace and just move forward! My Dad was a veterianarian....don't get me started with that one, everyone just thinks they go to work and care for cute animals all day! The overhead is huge, clients have unrealistic expectations, there are dangers, etc! If any one thinks that their profession doesn't deserve public critisism they are sadly mistaken!!!! Your goal should be not to fall into those negative stereotypes. Nothing can make my day more than a patient telling me "thank you for getting me in so quickly, having a reasonable fee, and making me feel that you really care!" Almost everyone in any profession deserves more $ & praise than they receive if they are doing their best. However, you should be doing your best in your field for personal reasons as much as the $ and praise.0
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Thanks from all the teachers out there working hard to help their students learn. 0 -
I am writing nobody off, but I am also realistic. Very probably, unlike you, I grew up in a housing project, and I lived among, and had to survive among the little pieces of crap you are so anxious to spend pulbic money on to "Save." Admittedly, this was a long time ago, before the welfare culture, and just at the beginning of big time drugs (but not before alcohol.) When I see some of the do-gooder comments on this board I realize that most of you have no clue whatsoever. LIberal bleeding heartism has never worked, and has only created a culture that if anything is much worse than it was when I went to public school.
The hard reality is that there are only so many resources. Unlike certain political leaders, I know that you cannot spend more than you have. Period. The only sane policy is to help those who want to be helped and let the others drift out to sea. Only when people realize that education is good and that it is worth spending time on will you have any success. As long as you keep trying to shove it down their throats they will resist it. I know these people. You don't.
MR KNOW IT ALL YOU ARE STARTING TO GET UP MY NOSE. You on here trying to patronise everyone you know best about every situation and no body else knows anything. The statement above is untrue I know these people I work with them everysingle day for the 10 years they are in my class room earning qualifications. They are the ones who are drifting out to see because they do not meet your standards but they are also the ones which get high grades in the GCSE's because our teachers help them along because they are encouraged and not forgotten about.
Page 11 you said this
I have no solution to how to educate a starving, beaten down kid who lives in a neighborhood where guns and killing are normal. To be honest with you, I don't think they can be educated. I certainly don't think that if I lived in such a neighborhood, I would be interested in anything but staying alive. The only solution may be to live long enough to join the Service.
Yet you now grew up with these no hopers and know them better than anybody else on this board. You are obviously here just to wind up everyone else.
Having looked back at previous posts of yours you change your mind an awful lot you are the person who said Children are not beans in a bag you can't lump them together and now you are saying let all the bad ones drift off to sea and only teacher the ones who want to be taught.
I have had other jobs for 9 years before i started work at the school and I really love my job with all these children that you are lumping into a bag and throwing out to see. I find everyday amazing I never ever complain about any part of it. I go in everyday and make lessons fun I teach Construction, Motor Engineering and Design Technology & every ba child who passes through leaves with a qualification. I don't get paid an awful lot but if that bothered me I would find another job just like all of you complaining we get holidays could stop moaning and become a teacher.
Yes, I don't doubt that the truth hurts. Did you grow up in a housing project? Have you lived in poverty with an alcoholic parent who spent all his money on booze? Of course children are not all beans in a bag. I was not a bean in the bag, and I did pretty well. Realize it or not, you are on the Titanic, and there are only so many lifeboats. YOU CAN'T SAVE EVERYONE. Put the ones you can save in the lifeboats.
I would never waste my time trying to educate someone who did not want to be educated. Period.0 -
This happens with any profession!!! It is not only teachers! I am in medicine. Everyone thinks doctors are "rich" and just out for the big bucks. COULDN"T be further from the truth for most in the medical field! My fees have gone down every year since I have been in practice (20 years). But, I go to my office everyday and give my patients the best care I can & I still love my "job." You need to let the public comments roll off your shoulders. There are bad eggs in EVERY profession.....teachers, police, doctors, CEO's, bankers etc....that is who the general public, unfortunately, focus' on! ALL jobs have their challenges and bumps and cross' to bear! Carry them with grace and just move forward! My Dad was a veterianarian....don't get me started with that one, everyone just thinks they go to work and care for cute animals all day! The overhead is huge, clients have unrealistic expectations, there are dangers, etc! If any one thinks that their profession doesn't deserve public critisism they are sadly mistaken!!!! Your goal should be not to fall into those negative stereotypes. Nothing can make my day more than a patient telling me "thank you for getting me in so quickly, having a reasonable fee, and making me feel that you really care!" Almost everyone in any profession deserves more $ & praise than they receive if they are doing their best. However, you should be doing your best in your field for personal reasons as much as the $ and praise.
If you had a patient who worked and could only see you at a time that was inconvenient for you, would you make an exception for that patient and inconvenience yourself?0
This discussion has been closed.
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