You Can Gain Muscle On A Calorie Deficit!!

Ripken818836701

No I didnt but please see the pics. Alos please show me where I ever mentioned the word strength?
You lost 10 lbs of lean mass? What did you weigh? What is your maintence for calorie intake, what was was your actual calorie intake during this time. How many grams of protein on avg. did you consume daily during this time and also what was your workout program during this time. Split, sets, reps etc.
The reason BBers bulk and cut is because it is a more efficient way to gain lean muscle. ( I never said it wasnt) But they are not drasticly over weight like myself or many others on this board.

Why are you asking for specific numbers but only using pictures for your own example? Pictures can be very deceiving, and certainly don't tell the whole story. If I take a picture of myself just after waking vs right after I've finished a heavy training session I'd look fairly different even though my stats might not have changed very much. I'm not trying to take anything away from the progress you've made, it's impressive but more importantly you seem to be happy with it, which is really what matters at the end of the day.

I think the important thing to keep in mind, is that when cutting weight, the focus should be on fat loss and not muscle gain. Regardless of how much muscle you may or may not have built when you were cutting down, it's insignificant next to the amount of fat you've lost. I do think you underestimated the amount of muscle you had gained along with fat when you were at your heaviest.

Gaining lean mass while cutting weight is extremely difficult, particularly so if you are not one or more of the following: a beginner at lifter, a former athlete off a long hiatus, very overweight. It would seem you fall into the first and third option (I'm guessing here) so gains are more likely for you than they are for someone who's low BF% and has been training regularly for a while.

At the end of the day, cut weight by eating at a deficit. Retain existing LBM with a smart lifting regime. If you gain some muscle mass in the process, whether or not random folks on the internet believe you, that's great for you. But why try to make that an expectation for others when it's extremely difficult in all but a few select situations and even then only comes in small quantities? There's a reason diets that tout "it's easy! you can lose a bajillion pounds in 42 seconds with this program" are generally unsuccessful. People have unrealistic expectations of progress and quit out of frustration. I'm genuinely happy for you given the progress you've made, I think it's fantastic. I recognize that your intent was to warn people against giving up lifting while cutting weight. That's an extremely good piece of advice. That being said I think a 'better' way to say things would be along the lines of:

To lose weight, eat at a deficit. To retain muscle mass while losing weight, eat adequate macros and implement a smart lifting program. Muscle gains during this time are possible, but unlikely in all but a few scenarios. The focus while cutting should be to maximize fat loss, and retain as much lean mass as possible. If the focus is to gain muscle mass, the appropriate way to do that is to train while eating at a calorie surplus (and getting adequate macros). The 'cost' of this is some fat gain along with the new muscle growth.

My statement has the same suggested course of action for cutting weight, but I think provides more realistic expectations to folks undertaking the routine.

Finally, why do people keep quoting the pictures? Makes scrolling through this thread a pita.

Because I wanted to try to help her if I could. And there was nothing deceiving about my pics, ( I have no need to deceive any one!!!} I purposely used pics where I did not have a pump or just finished lifting etc., Below is a pic. when I did have a pump just to show you the difference.
If I took your advice when I started I wouldnt be anywhere close to where I am now and just look like a jelly fish. Im glad I listened to they guys who knew exactly what I should do, proper split, diet, etc.

maidentl

And there was nothing deceiving about my pics, ( I have no need to deceive any one!!!}

Then why did you say it was done on a deficit only to turn around seven pages later and admit you ate at a surplus? I'm confused. :huh:

taso42

You can gain strength in a calorie deficit. Gaining muscle is pretty rare, and is limited to beginners to weight lifting, and those coming back after a long break (muscle memory). For the rest of us, we strength train during deficit to maintain lean mass and maintain or increase strength.

While I agree with the spirit of what you are saying, most people here would be considered "novice" in a strength program. I still qualify as a novice even after some time in lifting. I eat at deficit, I am losing bf% and scale weight. Will that last forever? No. But it has lasted a while and would apply to most people on this site.

Well I didnt eat at a deficit once over the last year, I ate at a surplus. I also made sure every bit of food I did eat was high in protein to make sure I was eating 1+ gram of protein for every ib. of body weight. My diet has also been high in carbs aswell.

Wait, wasn't this thread started as a way of you telling people you can gain muscle on a calorie deficit, and used yourself as an example? But you didn't eat at a deficit. So, now I'm all confused. :huh:

I knew it. What a *kitten*.

What's next, the "You can lose weight eating on a calorie surplus!!!!" thread?

Acg67

You can gain strength in a calorie deficit. Gaining muscle is pretty rare, and is limited to beginners to weight lifting, and those coming back after a long break (muscle memory). For the rest of us, we strength train during deficit to maintain lean mass and maintain or increase strength.

While I agree with the spirit of what you are saying, most people here would be considered "novice" in a strength program. I still qualify as a novice even after some time in lifting. I eat at deficit, I am losing bf% and scale weight. Will that last forever? No. But it has lasted a while and would apply to most people on this site.

Well I didnt eat at a deficit once over the last year, I ate at a surplus. I also made sure every bit of food I did eat was high in protein to make sure I was eating 1+ gram of protein for every ib. of body weight. My diet has also been high in carbs aswell.

Wait, wasn't this thread started as a way of you telling people you can gain muscle on a calorie deficit, and used yourself as an example? But you didn't eat at a deficit. So, now I'm all confused. :huh:

I knew it. What a *kitten*.

What's next, the "You can lose weight eating on a calorie surplus!!!!" thread?

I have seen people claim that they eat in a surplus and still lose

Ripken818836701

You can gain strength in a calorie deficit. Gaining muscle is pretty rare, and is limited to beginners to weight lifting, and those coming back after a long break (muscle memory). For the rest of us, we strength train during deficit to maintain lean mass and maintain or increase strength.

While I agree with the spirit of what you are saying, most people here would be considered "novice" in a strength program. I still qualify as a novice even after some time in lifting. I eat at deficit, I am losing bf% and scale weight. Will that last forever? No. But it has lasted a while and would apply to most people on this site.

Well I didnt eat at a deficit once over the last year, I ate at a surplus. I also made sure every bit of food I did eat was high in protein to make sure I was eating 1+ gram of protein for every ib. of body weight. My diet has also been high in carbs aswell.

Wait, wasn't this thread started as a way of you telling people you can gain muscle on a calorie deficit, and used yourself as an example? But you didn't eat at a deficit. So, now I'm all confused. :huh:

I ate at a surplus, My excercise program caused the deficit. ( I work out 7 days per week)

Ripken818836701

You can gain strength in a calorie deficit. Gaining muscle is pretty rare, and is limited to beginners to weight lifting, and those coming back after a long break (muscle memory). For the rest of us, we strength train during deficit to maintain lean mass and maintain or increase strength.

While I agree with the spirit of what you are saying, most people here would be considered "novice" in a strength program. I still qualify as a novice even after some time in lifting. I eat at deficit, I am losing bf% and scale weight. Will that last forever? No. But it has lasted a while and would apply to most people on this site.

Well I didnt eat at a deficit once over the last year, I ate at a surplus. I also made sure every bit of food I did eat was high in protein to make sure I was eating 1+ gram of protein for every ib. of body weight. My diet has also been high in carbs aswell.

Wait, wasn't this thread started as a way of you telling people you can gain muscle on a calorie deficit, and used yourself as an example? But you didn't eat at a deficit. So, now I'm all confused. :huh:

I knew it. What a *kitten*.

What's next, the "You can lose weight eating on a calorie surplus!!!!" thread?

Now I have been polite this entire thread, even though I basicly been told Im mistaken about my own body, accused of trying to deceive people with pics. etc., etc. etc., But your an idiot.

Ripken818836701

And there was nothing deceiving about my pics, ( I have no need to deceive any one!!!}

Then why did you say it was done on a deficit only to turn around seven pages later and admit you ate at a surplus? I'm confused. :huh:

Like I said I ate at a surplus, ( I wanted to drop the weight slow,) and the deficit was caused by my exercise program.
Sorry I confused you.

heybales

I ate at a surplus, My excercise program caused the deficit. ( I work out 7 days per week)

Well great - now you've confused all the weight lifters here that are not using MFP for weight loss and therefore think in terms of surplus to mean Net daily surplus.

You still had Net daily deficit then. And you lost weight over the past year, which proves you had to be in deficit.

Hence the title of the Topic still stands - "a calorie deficit" - which it is.

Curious, did you net under your BMR on a regular basis?

ninerbuff

Let me say that the OP has done a great job getting into great shape. What he's achieved is tough to do and does take a lot of discipline and dedication. I'm just disagreeing with him on muscle gain.
It's obvious in photos with higher body fat, that his musculature is much improved compared to his 25 year old pics. Just reducing that bodyfat made the muscle pop.

A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

Thx and not to be rude but you dont have a clue about my body. My arms,upper chest, Even prior to losing weight my upper chest was skin and bone, no muscle or fat) calves, shoulders, traps ( i didnt have traps) are all larger now -74 lbs of fat than they were last March. All you have to do is compare the May 2011 pic to the August 2011 pic, ( and my arms were larger in May 2011 than they were in March 2011 at my highest weight)

Not to be rude back, but as you gained weight, it's not unlikely you gained some muscle along with it. It's not like I haven't had experience in this field for over 29 years. I don't have to know your body to tell that by your pics in May alone that you're musculature is more pronounced than when you were 25 and it's OBVIOUS you're at a higher weight.
And really 74lbs in 90 days WITHOUT losing any muscle mass? Let's look at it mathematically. That's 259,000 fat calories. Divided by 90 days (you stated from May to August) that's a deficit of 2877 calories ON TOP OF whatever else you were burning. And somehow you ADDED muscle while doing this. Scientifically and mathematically, it doesn't work.
Sorry don't buy it.

A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

ninerbuff

First I am just shy of 6"2 with long arms and legs, If I was the avg. height for an adult male I would be less than 5 "10 and my lean muscle gains would be more impressive. Both of my arms are atleast 1.5 inches larger than they were prior to losing 74 lbs. If I didnt gain a considerable amount of lean muscle this couldnt be possible because the avg adult male needs to gain atleast 10 lbs of muscle to increase his arm size by 1 inch.

Untrue. Your arms circumference can increase by 1 inch alone going from non active weight lifting to consistent weight lifting just by the influx of glycogen and water in the muscle cells alone. Ever been pumped up?

A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

ninerbuff

I ate at a surplus, My excercise program caused the deficit. ( I work out 7 days per week)

Dude, you can't eat surplus and be on deficit. That's NOT how math works.

A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

mmapags

For clarity, can you tell us how much over you were going, what the exercise number was and what the deficit was after?

ArroganceInStep

Why are you asking for specific numbers but only using pictures for your own example? Pictures can be very deceiving, and certainly don't tell the whole story. If I take a picture of myself just after waking vs right after I've finished a heavy training session I'd look fairly different even though my stats might not have changed very much. I'm not trying to take anything away from the progress you've made, it's impressive but more importantly you seem to be happy with it, which is really what matters at the end of the day.

I think the important thing to keep in mind, is that when cutting weight, the focus should be on fat loss and not muscle gain. Regardless of how much muscle you may or may not have built when you were cutting down, it's insignificant next to the amount of fat you've lost. I do think you underestimated the amount of muscle you had gained along with fat when you were at your heaviest.

Gaining lean mass while cutting weight is extremely difficult, particularly so if you are not one or more of the following: a beginner at lifter, a former athlete off a long hiatus, very overweight. It would seem you fall into the first and third option (I'm guessing here) so gains are more likely for you than they are for someone who's low BF% and has been training regularly for a while.

At the end of the day, cut weight by eating at a deficit. Retain existing LBM with a smart lifting regime. If you gain some muscle mass in the process, whether or not random folks on the internet believe you, that's great for you. But why try to make that an expectation for others when it's extremely difficult in all but a few select situations and even then only comes in small quantities? There's a reason diets that tout "it's easy! you can lose a bajillion pounds in 42 seconds with this program" are generally unsuccessful. People have unrealistic expectations of progress and quit out of frustration. I'm genuinely happy for you given the progress you've made, I think it's fantastic. I recognize that your intent was to warn people against giving up lifting while cutting weight. That's an extremely good piece of advice. That being said I think a 'better' way to say things would be along the lines of:

To lose weight, eat at a deficit. To retain muscle mass while losing weight, eat adequate macros and implement a smart lifting program. Muscle gains during this time are possible, but unlikely in all but a few scenarios. The focus while cutting should be to maximize fat loss, and retain as much lean mass as possible. If the focus is to gain muscle mass, the appropriate way to do that is to train while eating at a calorie surplus (and getting adequate macros). The 'cost' of this is some fat gain along with the new muscle growth.

My statement has the same suggested course of action for cutting weight, but I think provides more realistic expectations to folks undertaking the routine.

Finally, why do people keep quoting the pictures? Makes scrolling through this thread a pita.

Because I wanted to try to help her if I could. And there was nothing deceiving about my pics, ( I have no need to deceive any one!!!} I purposely used pics where I did not have a pump or just finished lifting etc., Below is a pic. when I did have a pump just to show you the difference. If I took your advice when I started I wouldnt be anywhere close to where I am now and just look like a jelly fish. Im glad I listened to they guys who knew exactly what I should do, proper split, diet, etc.
[/quote]

Please understand, I'm not saying that you're trying to deceive anyone (I do recognize that I said specifically that pictures can be deceiving, but I didn't mean it was intentionally so, just that it could be misinterpreted by others). I'm trying to say that I have a differing opinion than you might on how best to inform and assist others in their health and fitness goals. I do not, nor have I at any point in this post, thought that you were actively trying to lie to people or anything underhanded like that. If that's the way my post came off to you, I apologize.

My general advice to others is to do basically what you did: "To lose weight, eat at a deficit. To retain muscle mass while losing weight, eat adequate macros and implement a smart lifting program."

My main contention was that saying you can gain muscle while eating at a deficit can be misleading to folks. Lets take as an assumption that you did gain a substantial amount of muscle mass while cutting weight. This is not a normal outcome for most people out there. The vast majority of folks cannot gain muscle mass while eating at a deficit, or if they can can only gain small quantities. I happen to believe this applies to everybody, and you and I disagree in that regard, but I hope we can both agree that for the vast majority of people massive muscle gain should not be expected. The best they should be hoping for is the retention of as much existing muscle mass as possible. Since the strategies for retaining muscle on a deficit and gaining on a deficit are basically the same, why not level expectations for the worst case? If they do gain some muscle that's great for them, but they won't be disappointed that way. That was what I meant, I hope this clears up what I was trying to say some.

Ripken818836701

I ate at a surplus, My excercise program caused the deficit. ( I work out 7 days per week)

Well great - now you've confused all the weight lifters here that are not using MFP for weight loss and therefore think in terms of surplus to mean Net daily surplus.

You still had Net daily deficit then. And you lost weight over the past year, which proves you had to be in deficit.

Hence the title of the Topic still stands - "a calorie deficit" - which it is.

Curious, did you net under your BMR on a regular basis?

Sorry If I confused anyone but I dont use MFP and never fiqured out what my was BMR either. When I got started I didnt have a clue what I was doing and lost 12 lbs. really fast, I didnt have any energy and felt weak so I knew I needed to fiquire out my macro's to find out what maintenance was for me. I experimented with my macro's to find out what the max amount of calories, fat and carbs I could eat per day along with my exercise program to cause me to lose 1-2lbs per week. At first I wasnt loosing any weight, so I lowered my macros every week until I started losing 1-2 lbs per week. Once I found out what maintenance was for me I counted and wrote down everything I ate for about a month, after that I I just paid attention to how many grams of protein and fat I ate per day and didnt count calories at all. I pretty much eat the same things and stuck to the same exercise program every day so I knew if I met my fat goal for the day I met my calorie goal for the day aswell. From there I just adjusted my protein and fat intake as I lost weight.

Ripken818836701

Let me say that the OP has done a great job getting into great shape. What he's achieved is tough to do and does take a lot of discipline and dedication. I'm just disagreeing with him on muscle gain.
It's obvious in photos with higher body fat, that his musculature is much improved compared to his 25 year old pics. Just reducing that bodyfat made the muscle pop.

A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

Thx and not to be rude but you dont have a clue about my body. My arms,upper chest, Even prior to losing weight my upper chest was skin and bone, no muscle or fat) calves, shoulders, traps ( i didnt have traps) are all larger now -74 lbs of fat than they were last March. All you have to do is compare the May 2011 pic to the August 2011 pic, ( and my arms were larger in May 2011 than they were in March 2011 at my highest weight)

Not to be rude back, but as you gained weight, it's not unlikely you gained some muscle along with it. It's not like I haven't had experience in this field for over 29 years. I don't have to know your body to tell that by your pics in May alone that you're musculature is more pronounced than when you were 25 and it's OBVIOUS you're at a higher weight.
And really 74lbs in 90 days WITHOUT losing any muscle mass? Let's look at it mathematically. That's 259,000 fat calories. Divided by 90 days (you stated from May to August) that's a deficit of 2877 calories ON TOP OF whatever else you were burning. And somehow you ADDED muscle while doing this. Scientifically and mathematically, it doesn't work.
Sorry don't buy it.

A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say, I didnt/ never said I lost 74lbs in 90 days, that took 1 year. What I asked you to do was just look at my arms in my Aug.-20011 pic. and then my May-2011 pic. My arms were larger in August than they were in May and they were also larger in May than they were in March despite dropping body weight. Like I said over and over that at my highest weight, my calves and forearms were very skinny, I didnt have any traps or fat covering them either and I could feel nothing but bone under my skin in my upper chest and on the outside of my arms were my bi's, tri's and delts meet. So even at my highest weight I didnt have any fat covering my calves,forearms, traps, upper chest or were my Bi's. Tri's and Delts meet.
Now - 74 lbs I have large traps,( they grew like weeds) larger calves and forearms ( they grew like molasses in winter) my Pecs are getting closer and closer to touching my colar bone and there is nothing but muscle were my Bi's, Tri's and Delts meet.

Ripken818836701

First I am just shy of 6"2 with long arms and legs, If I was the avg. height for an adult male I would be less than 5 "10 and my lean muscle gains would be more impressive. Both of my arms are atleast 1.5 inches larger than they were prior to losing 74 lbs. If I didnt gain a considerable amount of lean muscle this couldnt be possible because the avg adult male needs to gain atleast 10 lbs of muscle to increase his arm size by 1 inch.

Untrue. Your arms circumference can increase by 1 inch alone going from non active weight lifting to consistent weight lifting just by the influx of glycogen and water in the muscle cells alone. Ever been pumped up?

A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

Yes but the amount glycogen and water in your muscle cells fluxuate ( You know this) and my measurements stayed the same or increased each and every time over the past year. Yes I get a pump with every work out but never took measurements or posted pics when I had one other than the pic below which I posted to show the difference between what I look like pumped up and what I look like cold. By the way the pumed pic. was taken almost 2 months ago and the cold pic. was taken last week.
Pumped:

Cold:

Ripken818836701

For clarity, can you tell us how much over you were going, what the exercise number was and what the deficit was after?

No honestly I cannot. In the early stages of this process I experimented with my macro's to find out the max. amount I could eat and still lose 1-2 lbs per week. And kept lowering my macro's each week until the scale showed me thats were I needed to be. All I can tell you is that during weeks that I was in FL. I stuck to my exact diet but for most of the past year didnt workout at all ( I recently changed that though) And when I got back to PA. would weigh about 1-3 lbs more than I did when I left.

dane11235813

is anyone still awake in here?!?!?!

anyone having trouble sleeping should just go back and read a couple pages of this thread. it will knock you out in no time.

Ripken818836701

Why are you asking for specific numbers but only using pictures for your own example? Pictures can be very deceiving, and certainly don't tell the whole story. If I take a picture of myself just after waking vs right after I've finished a heavy training session I'd look fairly different even though my stats might not have changed very much. I'm not trying to take anything away from the progress you've made, it's impressive but more importantly you seem to be happy with it, which is really what matters at the end of the day.

I think the important thing to keep in mind, is that when cutting weight, the focus should be on fat loss and not muscle gain. Regardless of how much muscle you may or may not have built when you were cutting down, it's insignificant next to the amount of fat you've lost. I do think you underestimated the amount of muscle you had gained along with fat when you were at your heaviest.

Gaining lean mass while cutting weight is extremely difficult, particularly so if you are not one or more of the following: a beginner at lifter, a former athlete off a long hiatus, very overweight. It would seem you fall into the first and third option (I'm guessing here) so gains are more likely for you than they are for someone who's low BF% and has been training regularly for a while.

At the end of the day, cut weight by eating at a deficit. Retain existing LBM with a smart lifting regime. If you gain some muscle mass in the process, whether or not random folks on the internet believe you, that's great for you. But why try to make that an expectation for others when it's extremely difficult in all but a few select situations and even then only comes in small quantities? There's a reason diets that tout "it's easy! you can lose a bajillion pounds in 42 seconds with this program" are generally unsuccessful. People have unrealistic expectations of progress and quit out of frustration. I'm genuinely happy for you given the progress you've made, I think it's fantastic. I recognize that your intent was to warn people against giving up lifting while cutting weight. That's an extremely good piece of advice. That being said I think a 'better' way to say things would be along the lines of:

To lose weight, eat at a deficit. To retain muscle mass while losing weight, eat adequate macros and implement a smart lifting program. Muscle gains during this time are possible, but unlikely in all but a few scenarios. The focus while cutting should be to maximize fat loss, and retain as much lean mass as possible. If the focus is to gain muscle mass, the appropriate way to do that is to train while eating at a calorie surplus (and getting adequate macros). The 'cost' of this is some fat gain along with the new muscle growth.

My statement has the same suggested course of action for cutting weight, but I think provides more realistic expectations to folks undertaking the routine.

Finally, why do people keep quoting the pictures? Makes scrolling through this thread a pita.

Because I wanted to try to help her if I could. And there was nothing deceiving about my pics, ( I have no need to deceive any one!!!} I purposely used pics where I did not have a pump or just finished lifting etc., Below is a pic. when I did have a pump just to show you the difference. If I took your advice when I started I wouldnt be anywhere close to where I am now and just look like a jelly fish. Im glad I listened to they guys who knew exactly what I should do, proper split, diet, etc.

Please understand, I'm not saying that you're trying to deceive anyone (I do recognize that I said specifically that pictures can be deceiving, but I didn't mean it was intentionally so, just that it could be misinterpreted by others). I'm trying to say that I have a differing opinion than you might on how best to inform and assist others in their health and fitness goals. I do not, nor have I at any point in this post, thought that you were actively trying to lie to people or anything underhanded like that. If that's the way my post came off to you, I apologize.

My general advice to others is to do basically what you did: "To lose weight, eat at a deficit. To retain muscle mass while losing weight, eat adequate macros and implement a smart lifting program."

My main contention was that saying you can gain muscle while eating at a deficit can be misleading to folks. Lets take as an assumption that you did gain a substantial amount of muscle mass while cutting weight. This is not a normal outcome for most people out there. The vast majority of folks cannot gain muscle mass while eating at a deficit, or if they can can only gain small quantities. I happen to believe this applies to everybody, and you and I disagree in that regard, but I hope we can both agree that for the vast majority of people massive muscle gain should not be expected. The best they should be hoping for is the retention of as much existing muscle mass as possible. Since the strategies for retaining muscle on a deficit and gaining on a deficit are basically the same, why not level expectations for the worst case? If they do gain some muscle that's great for them, but they won't be disappointed that way. That was what I meant, I hope this clears up what I was trying to say some.

rtalencar, I apologize to you for taking your comment the wrong way.
I agree with alot of what you say, I never said that you can or should expect to gain a substantial amount of muscle at the same time as cutting. There are guys at my gym that I workout with that have gained alot more muscle than I have over the past year by eating at a surplus everyday and I bust my butt in the gym just as much if not more than they do. But I respectfully disagree with your opinion that the majority of people that are trying to lose weight cannot gain lean muscle at the same time as long as their T levels are normal,not starving themsleves, doing too much cardio, and eating at the very least 1 gr. of protein per lb. of body weight each and every day. Protein is very important, for example, MFP. recommends that at my current weight of 213 lbs I should eat 79 grams of protein per day, I would have never gained any lean muscle if I used MFP. to base how many grams of protein I should be eating every day. I am currently eating 225 grams on average per day.

yesthistime

I just want to hang out in here

I'm having a great time, as well. At least until a good "Should I eat my exercise calories?" thread starts up. Then I'm out!:smokin: