You Can Gain Muscle On A Calorie Deficit!!
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Niner, Also I have a question regarding strength gains. Even though we agree to disagree on the topic of this thread, I still value your opinion, Please dont think that im trying claim that strength gains is proof etc. of gaining muscle because im not!! I stated this in a prior post in this thread, But in your opinion lets use bench for example, can a beginner increase their max bench 50- 100- 125 lbs etc. from just improving their form and strengthening their existing lean muscle, ligaments, tendons etc without a gain in lean muscle? Once again Im not implying increasing your bench etc. is proof that you gained LM. Just curious to see is there limitations to strength gains from improving form and the strengthing of your existing lean muscle, ligaments and tendons. Thanks.0
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Good article but to me it's focusing on Body Recomposition versus Mass gains, not the same thing. On a calorie deficit for a while now and my body has re-comped nicely and it's still going and I've gained a lot of strength, set some new PR's. But I'm really not getting any bigger. I've gained a little size but nothing I would consider Mass gain.
I recommend going to Dr. John Berardi's website if you want some other opinions on this subject. He's a scientist, former Olympian, and trains athletes, he knows his stuff. I think his website is www.precisionnutrition.com.
If one couldn't gain any muscle and you were losing fat all this time, you'd be noticably smaller right? Being the same size or slighly larger would indicate slight muscle mass gains.
Getting Massive versus gaining a little size from strength training is not the same thing folks. Niner mentioned the Law of Thermodynamics. Think about this and use the bodybuilder example again. When bodybuilders go to gain Mass for competitions they go on a major calorie surplus. They gain muscle and a little fat. Then, when they go into contest prep they go on a calorie deficit and they lose a small percentage of their Mass in the process. Some more than others depending on how good they are at managing their diet but they do lose some Mass.
I'm not saying that you won't gain some size because for a muscle to get stronger it must grow but that's not the same as sheer Mass gain.0 -
I think there is a general conflation here of a few different factors. I'm not a 'muscle' scientist, but a some quick reading leads me to think this is generally what's going on here.
I see a couple of people suggesting you may be able to 'tone' and 'strengthen' existing muscle, but not add new muscle while eating a calorie deficit. There are some tricky semantics and tricky biology involved here. Muscle gets bigger in two ways: hypertrophy, which is an increase in size and mass without the addition of new muscle fibers, and hyperplasia, which is an increase in size via addition of new fibers. It is possible that hypertrophy may not result in increased strength, as the additional bulk comes from tissue types not mediating contractions (scar tissue, etc).
This type of tissue can be added readily as a wound-healing process. Muscle soreness from inflammation drives cell swelling and inflammatory mediators to collect in the tissues. As the wounds heal, some scar-tissue like elements may be added, increasing bulk. Wound healing most certainly occurs when in caloric deficit, this there is no reason to suspect that this type of muscle growth can not also occur.
Hyperplasia is most commonly induced by sustained and/or intense loading of the muscles - again, microtears are healed, but also complex cell-signaling cascades are initiated that result in the division and multiplication of new muscle fibres. This is a eneregetically-expensive anabolic process, thus when calories are tight it's less likely to occur, but it's not impossible.
- In short, if you eat a caloric deficit you can certainly increase muscle bulk via hypertrophy. As compared with eating an excess, a smaller portion of the overall growth may come from the separate process of hyperplasia, but it may still occur. Just to a lesser extreme.
So in even shorter - yes, you can 'add muscle' on a caloric deficit.
And let me again iterate that this is based on a general knowledge of human physiology, but I am not, nor do I claim to be, an expert on muscles.
I will have to go with what she says above anyone else here as it appears to me she knows her stuff.0 -
Niner, Also I have a question regarding strength gains. Even though we agree to disagree on the topic of this thread, I still value your opinion, Please dont think that im trying claim that strength gains is proof etc. of gaining muscle because im not!! I stated this in a prior post in this thread, But in your opinion lets use bench for example, can a beginner increase their max bench 50- 100- 125 lbs etc. from just improving their form and strengthening their existing lean muscle, ligaments, tendons etc without a gain in lean muscle? Once again Im not implying increasing your bench etc. is proof that you gained LM. Just curious to see is there limitations to strength gains from improving form and the strengthing of your existing lean muscle, ligaments and tendons. Thanks.
Not Niner and can't speak the soft tissue strengthening but one can easily put 50lbs on their bench in a short-time just by fixing their bench form. Staying more stable on the bench, good arch, squeeze and pull the bar apart, breathing, etc are huge.0 -
While I don't disagree on that, there is a SIGNIFICANT difference of glycogen/water storage from a muscle that's being trained and one that's not. Up to 1.5 - 2 inches average.Niner, First I want to mention how great you look in your pic.'s ( I wanted to mention that in my last post but forgot)
Second, glycogen and water and water levels fluctuate( you forgot to mention this) So my measurements would fluctuate aswell .
I read studies. Especially peer reviewed clinical studies since that's where I base most of my philosophy on. Post them.I dont feel I defied the natural laws of how theemodynamics work, ( I didnt even realize that others thought it wasnt possible until I joined MFP.) Also there are were numerous others posters who stated they gained muscle in this thread, they must have defied the laws of nature aswell.
If its studies you want, studies you will have (at some point this weekend) I have already googled them but didnt post them cause It was a waste of time because you wouldnt believe them anyway.
Nah, I think you started the thread to try to prove that substantial muscle could be gained while losing weight. Again, no negativity on what you achieved for yourself, I just don't buy your analogy. Trust me when I say I used to believe what you do now (24 years ago), but when I was actually "schooled" by a professor of physiology and really couldn't find any actual research to back what I had been taught, I had to concede that what I learned was from people whom I trusted and really didn't question. It's okay to admit error.Yes we have discussed the types of people that can gain muscle on a calorie deficit,
Overweight beginners and experienced lifters who are just getting back into lifting, (THE EXACT PEOPLE THAT WHO I STARTED THIS THREAD FOR) But dont put words in my mouth, I never stated that I gained a large amount of muscle, I dont even know how much LM. I gained. ONCE AGAIN THE ENTIRE POINT OF THIS THREAD WAS SO BEGINNERS THINKING ABOUT LIFTING DIDNT GET THE IDEA THAT LIFTING WASNT BENEFICIAL OR A WASTE OF TIME IF THEY WERE IN THE PROCESS OF LOSING FAT.
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Since I have started eating healthy and going down the gym I have lost 70Lb and I can now lift more than I could at the start.
When I mentioned to medical people (doctors and nutritionists) as well as gym trainer that I was thinking about dropping the strength training to allow more time for cardio as it burns more calories I got told to keep up the strength training as it is important to build muscle strength up whilst losing weight.
Yes, but maintaining muscle strength and muscle tissue is a far different thing than building new muscle.
I lost 59lbs over a couple of years - my BF% decreased from 49% to 29 - and my fat mass from 96lbs and 116 lbs lean to 52 lbs... and 125 lbs muscle etc.....Which means that I GAINED 9lbs of muscle while losing fat and not training with heavy weighs, but doing consistant resistance training and cardio...
It can be done....0 -
Good article but to me it's focusing on Body Recomposition versus Mass gains, not the same thing. On a calorie deficit for a while now and my body has re-comped nicely and it's still going and I've gained a lot of strength, set some new PR's. But I'm really not getting any bigger. I've gained a little size but nothing I would consider Mass gain.
I recommend going to Dr. John Berardi's website if you want some other opinions on this subject. He's a scientist, former Olympian, and trains athletes, he knows his stuff. I think his website is www.precisionnutrition.com.
If one couldn't gain any muscle and you were losing fat all this time, you'd be noticably smaller right? Being the same size or slighly larger would indicate slight muscle mass gains.
Getting Massive versus gaining a little size from strength training is not the same thing folks. Niner mentioned the Law of Thermodynamics. Think about this and use the bodybuilder example again. When bodybuilders go to gain Mass for competitions they go on a major calorie surplus. They gain muscle and a little fat. Then, when they go into contest prep they go on a calorie deficit and they lose a small percentage of their Mass in the process. Some more than others depending on how good they are at managing their diet but they do lose some Mass.
I'm not saying that you won't gain some size because for a muscle to get stronger it must grow but that's not the same as sheer Mass gain.
No one in this thread ever claimed to be "massively" bigger while in a calorie deficit. I"m not sure why that gets mixed up in these conversations when no one makes claims that are even remotely close to that.0 -
Cougar just for the record, I never claimed I or any oher person could get "massive"" while on a deficit. And this thread was inteded for beginners or experienced lifters that took a long period of time off that were considering taking up weight lifting or getting back into tit after a long layoff and currently cutting. 99% of the members of MFP. are not experienced BBer's who do bulking and cutting phases to gain maxium amount of LM. and then cutting under 10% from 15-20% BF.Good article but to me it's focusing on Body Recomposition versus Mass gains, not the same thing. On a calorie deficit for a while now and my body has re-comped nicely and it's still going and I've gained a lot of strength, set some new PR's. But I'm really not getting any bigger. I've gained a little size but nothing I would consider Mass gain.
I recommend going to Dr. John Berardi's website if you want some other opinions on this subject. He's a scientist, former Olympian, and trains athletes, he knows his stuff. I think his website is www.precisionnutrition.com.
If one couldn't gain any muscle and you were losing fat all this time, you'd be noticably smaller right? Being the same size or slighly larger would indicate slight muscle mass gains.
Getting Massive versus gaining a little size from strength training is not the same thing folks. Niner mentioned the Law of Thermodynamics. Think about this and use the bodybuilder example again. When bodybuilders go to gain Mass for competitions they go on a major calorie surplus. They gain muscle and a little fat. Then, when they go into contest prep they go on a calorie deficit and they lose a small percentage of their Mass in the process. Some more than others depending on how good they are at managing their diet but they do lose some Mass.
I'm not saying that you won't gain some size because for a muscle to get stronger it must grow but that's not the same as sheer Mass gain.0 -
Show Me just one post were I stated that. Dont waste my time by trying to put words in my mouth!!
While I don't disagree on that, there is a SIGNIFICANT difference of glycogen/water storage from a muscle that's being trained and one that's not. Up to 1.5 - 2 inches average.Niner, First I want to mention how great you look in your pic.'s ( I wanted to mention that in my last post but forgot)
Second, glycogen and water and water levels fluctuate( you forgot to mention this) So my measurements would fluctuate aswell .
I read studies. Especially peer reviewed clinical studies since that's where I base most of my philosophy on. Post them.I dont feel I defied the natural laws of how theemodynamics work, ( I didnt even realize that others thought it wasnt possible until I joined MFP.) Also there are were numerous others posters who stated they gained muscle in this thread, they must have defied the laws of nature aswell.
If its studies you want, studies you will have (at some point this weekend) I have already googled them but didnt post them cause It was a waste of time because you wouldnt believe them anyway.
Nah, I think you started the thread to try to prove that substantial muscle could be gained while losing weight. Again, no negativity on what you achieved for yourself, I just don't buy your analogy. Trust me when I say I used to believe what you do now (24 years ago), but when I was actually "schooled" by a professor of physiology and really couldn't find any actual research to back what I had been taught, I had to concede that what I learned was from people whom I trusted and really didn't question. It's okay to admit error.Yes we have discussed the types of people that can gain muscle on a calorie deficit,
Overweight beginners and experienced lifters who are just getting back into lifting, (THE EXACT PEOPLE THAT WHO I STARTED THIS THREAD FOR) But dont put words in my mouth, I never stated that I gained a large amount of muscle, I dont even know how much LM. I gained. ONCE AGAIN THE ENTIRE POINT OF THIS THREAD WAS SO BEGINNERS THINKING ABOUT LIFTING DIDNT GET THE IDEA THAT LIFTING WASNT BENEFICIAL OR A WASTE OF TIME IF THEY WERE IN THE PROCESS OF LOSING FAT.
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Cougar just for the record, I never claimed I or any oher person could get "massive"" while on a deficit. And this thread was inteded for beginners or experienced lifters that took a long period of time off that were considering taking up weight lifting or getting back into tit after a long layoff and currently cutting. 99% of the members of MFP. are not experienced BBer's who do bulking and cutting phases to gain maxium amount of LM. and then cutting under 10% from 15-20% BF.Good article but to me it's focusing on Body Recomposition versus Mass gains, not the same thing. On a calorie deficit for a while now and my body has re-comped nicely and it's still going and I've gained a lot of strength, set some new PR's. But I'm really not getting any bigger. I've gained a little size but nothing I would consider Mass gain.
I recommend going to Dr. John Berardi's website if you want some other opinions on this subject. He's a scientist, former Olympian, and trains athletes, he knows his stuff. I think his website is www.precisionnutrition.com.
If one couldn't gain any muscle and you were losing fat all this time, you'd be noticably smaller right? Being the same size or slighly larger would indicate slight muscle mass gains.
Getting Massive versus gaining a little size from strength training is not the same thing folks. Niner mentioned the Law of Thermodynamics. Think about this and use the bodybuilder example again. When bodybuilders go to gain Mass for competitions they go on a major calorie surplus. They gain muscle and a little fat. Then, when they go into contest prep they go on a calorie deficit and they lose a small percentage of their Mass in the process. Some more than others depending on how good they are at managing their diet but they do lose some Mass.
I'm not saying that you won't gain some size because for a muscle to get stronger it must grow but that's not the same as sheer Mass gain.
Agreed, 99% of MFP population is not in that boat. However I also read the threads and the most common thing I see are women concerned about getting bulky while training on a calorie deficit. This thread can be horribly misleading to somebody with that fear.0 -
Since I have started eating healthy and going down the gym I have lost 70Lb and I can now lift more than I could at the start.
When I mentioned to medical people (doctors and nutritionists) as well as gym trainer that I was thinking about dropping the strength training to allow more time for cardio as it burns more calories I got told to keep up the strength training as it is important to build muscle strength up whilst losing weight.
Yes, but maintaining muscle strength and muscle tissue is a far different thing than building new muscle.
I lost 59lbs over a couple of years - my BF% decreased from 49% to 29 - and my fat mass from 96lbs and 116 lbs lean to 52 lbs... and 125 lbs muscle etc.....Which means that I GAINED 9lbs of muscle while losing fat and not training with heavy weighs, but doing consistant resistance training and cardio...
It can be done....
You did gain 9 lbs of muscle but not by growing more muscle. You took your existing muscle, much of which had atrophied and developed it. That's what caused the gain, if your measurements are correct ( a valid question since you don't say how this is measured and what you state as muscle gain is probably within the margin or error of most measuring tecniques). I'm not saying you didn't accomplish great things and I applaud what you have done. That does't prove you grew new muscle tissue though. This same thing may be what has happened for the OP.0 -
Cougar just for the record, I never claimed I or any oher person could get "massive"" while on a deficit. And this thread was inteded for beginners or experienced lifters that took a long period of time off that were considering taking up weight lifting or getting back into tit after a long layoff and currently cutting. 99% of the members of MFP. are not experienced BBer's who do bulking and cutting phases to gain maxium amount of LM. and then cutting under 10% from 15-20% BF.Good article but to me it's focusing on Body Recomposition versus Mass gains, not the same thing. On a calorie deficit for a while now and my body has re-comped nicely and it's still going and I've gained a lot of strength, set some new PR's. But I'm really not getting any bigger. I've gained a little size but nothing I would consider Mass gain.
I recommend going to Dr. John Berardi's website if you want some other opinions on this subject. He's a scientist, former Olympian, and trains athletes, he knows his stuff. I think his website is www.precisionnutrition.com.
If one couldn't gain any muscle and you were losing fat all this time, you'd be noticably smaller right? Being the same size or slighly larger would indicate slight muscle mass gains.
Getting Massive versus gaining a little size from strength training is not the same thing folks. Niner mentioned the Law of Thermodynamics. Think about this and use the bodybuilder example again. When bodybuilders go to gain Mass for competitions they go on a major calorie surplus. They gain muscle and a little fat. Then, when they go into contest prep they go on a calorie deficit and they lose a small percentage of their Mass in the process. Some more than others depending on how good they are at managing their diet but they do lose some Mass.
I'm not saying that you won't gain some size because for a muscle to get stronger it must grow but that's not the same as sheer Mass gain.
Agreed, 99% of MFP population is not in that boat. However I also read the threads and the most common thing I see are women concerned about getting bulky while training on a calorie deficit. This thread can be horribly misleading to somebody with that fear.
He never got bulky either. So again, I don't get the fear here0 -
Cougar just for the record, I never claimed I or any oher person could get "massive"" while on a deficit. And this thread was inteded for beginners or experienced lifters that took a long period of time off that were considering taking up weight lifting or getting back into tit after a long layoff and currently cutting. 99% of the members of MFP. are not experienced BBer's who do bulking and cutting phases to gain maxium amount of LM. and then cutting under 10% from 15-20% BF.Good article but to me it's focusing on Body Recomposition versus Mass gains, not the same thing. On a calorie deficit for a while now and my body has re-comped nicely and it's still going and I've gained a lot of strength, set some new PR's. But I'm really not getting any bigger. I've gained a little size but nothing I would consider Mass gain.
I recommend going to Dr. John Berardi's website if you want some other opinions on this subject. He's a scientist, former Olympian, and trains athletes, he knows his stuff. I think his website is www.precisionnutrition.com.
If one couldn't gain any muscle and you were losing fat all this time, you'd be noticably smaller right? Being the same size or slighly larger would indicate slight muscle mass gains.
Getting Massive versus gaining a little size from strength training is not the same thing folks. Niner mentioned the Law of Thermodynamics. Think about this and use the bodybuilder example again. When bodybuilders go to gain Mass for competitions they go on a major calorie surplus. They gain muscle and a little fat. Then, when they go into contest prep they go on a calorie deficit and they lose a small percentage of their Mass in the process. Some more than others depending on how good they are at managing their diet but they do lose some Mass.
I'm not saying that you won't gain some size because for a muscle to get stronger it must grow but that's not the same as sheer Mass gain.
Agreed, 99% of MFP population is not in that boat. However I also read the threads and the most common thing I see are women concerned about getting bulky while training on a calorie deficit. This thread can be horribly misleading to somebody with that fear.
He never got bulky either. So again, I don't get the fear here
He posted something informational for people to read about gaining muscle while on a calorie deficit which is good, nothing wrong with that. But it could easily be misconstrued by somebody that doesn't know any better that they will get big by weight lifting while on a calorie deficit. Check the MFP boards and you'll notice women posting on a regular basis their fear of getting big by weight-lifting. I think Niner and myself were just trying to help clarify for those that may read this and be concerned.0 -
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Nah, I think you started the thread to try to prove that substantial muscle could be gained while losing weight.
Well here's you're opening sentence:Show Me just one post were I stated that. Dont waste my time by trying to put words in my mouth!!
I didn't make the statement to put words in your mouth. I just re instated what your first line was.I wanted to start this thread because of the "" Muscle Does Not Weigh More Than Fat" thread. Reading thru it I read numerous posts that claimed that you cannot gain muscle while on a calorie deficit. Yes you can!!
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Nah, I think you started the thread to try to prove that substantial muscle could be gained while losing weight.
Well here's you're opening sentence:Show Me just one post were I stated that. Dont waste my time by trying to put words in my mouth!!
I didn't make the statement to put words in your mouth. I just re instated what your first line was.I wanted to start this thread because of the "" Muscle Does Not Weigh More Than Fat" thread. Reading thru it I read numerous posts that claimed that you cannot gain muscle while on a calorie deficit. Yes you can!!
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[/quote] Really?? Your joking right?? Like I said stop wasting my time by trying to put words in my mouth or twisting what I actually said!. Saying you can add muscle while on a deficit is no where close to stating that you can add a substantial or massive amount of muscle while on a deficit.0 -
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Really?? Your joking right?? Like I said stop wasting my time by trying to put words in my mouth or twisting what I actually said!. Saying you can add muscle while on a deficit is no where close to stating that you can add a substantial or massive amount of muscle while on a deficit.
Nah, I think you started the thread to try to prove that substantial muscle could be gained while losing weight.
Well here's you're opening sentence:Show Me just one post were I stated that. Dont waste my time by trying to put words in my mouth!!
I didn't make the statement to put words in your mouth. I just re instated what your first line was.I wanted to start this thread because of the "" Muscle Does Not Weigh More Than Fat" thread. Reading thru it I read numerous posts that claimed that you cannot gain muscle while on a calorie deficit. Yes you can!!
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Dude, you've been posting pictures and stating that you're "definitely" bigger all the while on calorie deficit. Your arms are bigger, your neck, your chest, etc. substantially compared to when you were overweight. I'm not putting words in your mouth, I could just copy and quote you.Really?? Your joking right?? Like I said stop wasting my time by trying to put words in my mouth or twisting what I actually said!. Saying you can add muscle while on a deficit is no where close to stating that you can add a substantial or massive amount of muscle while on a deficit.
These are all your words not words I "put in your mouth". There's more, but I'm not going to search the thread. I think I've made the point more than clear. Don't know why you're digging yourself a hole here.You can add muscle aswell. The only exception is when you reach a very low BF%
To gain one inch in arm size you need to gain atleast 10 lbs of lean muscle. And since I started working out even though I got rid of most of the fat in my arms I still gained over 1.5 inches in both of my arms.
My arms,upper chest, Even prior to losing weight my upper chest was skin and bone, no muscle or fat) calves, shoulders, traps ( i didnt have traps) are all larger now -74 lbs of fat than they were last March. All you have to do is compare the May 2011 pic to the August 2011 pic, ( and my arms were larger in May 2011 than they were in March 2011 at my highest weight)
Both of my arms are atleast 1.5 inches larger than they were prior to losing 74 lbs. If I didnt gain a considerable amount of lean muscle this couldnt be possible because the avg adult male needs to gain atleast 10 lbs of muscle to increase his arm size by 1 inch.
Well my calves and lower legs were always skinny even at my highest weight but they are now larger than they were last march.
My arms were larger in August than they were in May and they were also larger in May than they were in March despite dropping body weight. Like I said over and over that at my highest weight, my calves and forearms were very skinny, I didnt have any traps or fat covering them either and I could feel nothing but bone under my skin in my upper chest and on the outside of my arms were my bi's, tri's and delts meet. So even at my highest weight I didnt have any fat covering my calves,forearms, traps, upper chest or were my Bi's. Tri's and Delts meet.
Now - 74 lbs I have large traps,( they grew like weeds) larger calves and forearms ( they grew like molasses in winter) my Pecs are getting closer and closer to touching my colar bone and there is nothing but muscle were my Bi's, Tri's and Delts meet.
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Yes it can happen. There is a limit that one will reach without adding lean muscle, but I have worked with clients who have increased their bench while losing weight by 100lbs. Right now I am working with a male who started at 336lbs and is now at 296 after 11 weeks. When we started he could barely bench 45lbs. Now he's up to 150lbs. with good form.Niner, Also I have a question regarding strength gains. Even though we agree to disagree on the topic of this thread, I still value your opinion, Please dont think that im trying claim that strength gains is proof etc. of gaining muscle because im not!! I stated this in a prior post in this thread, But in your opinion lets use bench for example, can a beginner increase their max bench 50- 100- 125 lbs etc. from just improving their form and strengthening their existing lean muscle, ligaments, tendons etc without a gain in lean muscle? Once again Im not implying increasing your bench etc. is proof that you gained LM. Just curious to see is there limitations to strength gains from improving form and the strengthing of your existing lean muscle, ligaments and tendons. Thanks.
You could also take someone who worked nothing but a machine bench press, have them do free weight benching for a couple of weeks, then have them try the machine bench press again, and more than likely have a higher weight that could be used for the same reps because the free weight benching integrated synergistic muscles that they weren't using on a machine bench press.
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UGH!!! I gained an inch in my calves, 1.5 inches in my Bi's. How much (be honest) could I have gained over the past year as a beginner and eating at surplus and not doing 3 days of cardio per week??? I already know the answer, but want to you to post it.
Dude, you've been posting pictures and stating that you're "definitely" bigger all the while on calorie deficit. Your arms are bigger, your neck, your chest, etc. substantially compared to when you were overweight. I'm not putting words in your mouth, I could just copy and quote you.Really?? Your joking right?? Like I said stop wasting my time by trying to put words in my mouth or twisting what I actually said!. Saying you can add muscle while on a deficit is no where close to stating that you can add a substantial or massive amount of muscle while on a deficit.
These are all your words not words I "put in your mouth". There's more, but I'm not going to search the thread. I think I've made the point more than clear. Don't know why you're digging yourself a hole here.You can add muscle aswell. The only exception is when you reach a very low BF%
To gain one inch in arm size you need to gain atleast 10 lbs of lean muscle. And since I started working out even though I got rid of most of the fat in my arms I still gained over 1.5 inches in both of my arms.
My arms,upper chest, Even prior to losing weight my upper chest was skin and bone, no muscle or fat) calves, shoulders, traps ( i didnt have traps) are all larger now -74 lbs of fat than they were last March. All you have to do is compare the May 2011 pic to the August 2011 pic, ( and my arms were larger in May 2011 than they were in March 2011 at my highest weight)
Both of my arms are atleast 1.5 inches larger than they were prior to losing 74 lbs. If I didnt gain a considerable amount of lean muscle this couldnt be possible because the avg adult male needs to gain atleast 10 lbs of muscle to increase his arm size by 1 inch.
Well my calves and lower legs were always skinny even at my highest weight but they are now larger than they were last march.
My arms were larger in August than they were in May and they were also larger in May than they were in March despite dropping body weight. Like I said over and over that at my highest weight, my calves and forearms were very skinny, I didnt have any traps or fat covering them either and I could feel nothing but bone under my skin in my upper chest and on the outside of my arms were my bi's, tri's and delts meet. So even at my highest weight I didnt have any fat covering my calves,forearms, traps, upper chest or were my Bi's. Tri's and Delts meet.
Now - 74 lbs I have large traps,( they grew like weeds) larger calves and forearms ( they grew like molasses in winter) my Pecs are getting closer and closer to touching my colar bone and there is nothing but muscle were my Bi's, Tri's and Delts meet.
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This is a strawman argument to try to deflect the answer I posted earlier.
UGH!!! I gained an inch in my calves, 1.5 inches in my Bi's. How much (be honest) could I have gained over the past year eating at surplus and not doing 3 days of cardio per week??? I already know the answer, but want to you to post it.
Dude, you've been posting pictures and stating that you're "definitely" bigger all the while on calorie deficit. Your arms are bigger, your neck, your chest, etc. substantially compared to when you were overweight. I'm not putting words in your mouth, I could just copy and quote you.Really?? Your joking right?? Like I said stop wasting my time by trying to put words in my mouth or twisting what I actually said!. Saying you can add muscle while on a deficit is no where close to stating that you can add a substantial or massive amount of muscle while on a deficit.
These are all your words not words I "put in your mouth". There's more, but I'm not going to search the thread. I think I've made the point more than clear. Don't know why you're digging yourself a hole here.You can add muscle aswell. The only exception is when you reach a very low BF%
To gain one inch in arm size you need to gain atleast 10 lbs of lean muscle. And since I started working out even though I got rid of most of the fat in my arms I still gained over 1.5 inches in both of my arms.
My arms,upper chest, Even prior to losing weight my upper chest was skin and bone, no muscle or fat) calves, shoulders, traps ( i didnt have traps) are all larger now -74 lbs of fat than they were last March. All you have to do is compare the May 2011 pic to the August 2011 pic, ( and my arms were larger in May 2011 than they were in March 2011 at my highest weight)
Both of my arms are atleast 1.5 inches larger than they were prior to losing 74 lbs. If I didnt gain a considerable amount of lean muscle this couldnt be possible because the avg adult male needs to gain atleast 10 lbs of muscle to increase his arm size by 1 inch.
Well my calves and lower legs were always skinny even at my highest weight but they are now larger than they were last march.
My arms were larger in August than they were in May and they were also larger in May than they were in March despite dropping body weight. Like I said over and over that at my highest weight, my calves and forearms were very skinny, I didnt have any traps or fat covering them either and I could feel nothing but bone under my skin in my upper chest and on the outside of my arms were my bi's, tri's and delts meet. So even at my highest weight I didnt have any fat covering my calves,forearms, traps, upper chest or were my Bi's. Tri's and Delts meet.
Now - 74 lbs I have large traps,( they grew like weeds) larger calves and forearms ( they grew like molasses in winter) my Pecs are getting closer and closer to touching my colar bone and there is nothing but muscle were my Bi's, Tri's and Delts meet.
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So let's rehash:
The thread states you can put on muscle on a calorie deficit. Most of us (who do understand) here agree that newbie, returning athlete, and obese/overweight gains are possible to a minor degree. But you argue that it can be substantial and much more significant than minor, thought that we don't know what we're talking about and went on to post pictures, make anecdotes, make claims that to add 1 inch to your arms you'd need 10lbs of muscle, etc. etc.
I refuted and asked for some peer reviewed clinical studies to prove it instead of anecdotes. You haven't provided any, but claim you do have them, but won't post them because I won't believe them.
All this debate has been about is whether or not significant muscle can be put on while in calorie deficit. I've stated no, you've stated yes. But now you're slowly back tracking out even though I've reposted you quoting your stance on it. If it is your belief, then that's fine, but again there's a difference between belief and actual proof.
Ball is in your court again. Post the studies. Again, not articles, opinions, blogs, but actual clinical studies that have been peer reviewed to support your stance. I'm more than willing to read them.
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Here is one of the studies I found, be back with more.:drinker: Please note in the ""endurance and weight resistive"" group lost 10 lbs of fat and gained 2 lbs. of lean muscle during the 8 week study. (please note: the "endurance and weight resistive"" group only did 15 minutes per day of weight resistant exercises)
http://exrx.net/FatLoss/WT&End.html
Wayne Westcott, Ph.D. conducted a study in which 72 over weight individuals participated in an eight week exercise program. The participants were placed in two groups. The first group performed 30 minutes of endurance exercise on a stationary cycle. The second group performed only 15 minutes of exercise on the stationary cycle plus an additional 15 minutes on weight resistant exercises. At the conclusion of the study, the "endurance only" group lost a total of 3.5 lbs.; 3 lbs. of which was fat and a half pound was muscle loss. On the other hand, the "endurance and weight resistive" group lost 8 lbs. with an actual fat loss of 10 lbs. and an increase of 2 lbs. of lean body weight.
(8 week program, 72 over weight individuals) Endurance Training (30 min) Endurance (15 min) & Weight Training (15 min)
Weight Change (lbs) -3.5 -8
Fat Change (lbs) -3 -10
Lean mass Change (lbs) -0.5 20 -
So this is stating that between 36 individuals that lifted weights (doesn't state that they were in calorie deficit just an exercise program),that the group as a whole lost 10lbs with 2lbs lean muscle gain. I don't tout 2lbs of lean muscle gained divided amongst 36 individuals as significant muscle gain. That would mean between each of them they gained 5% of 1lb.Here is one of the studies I found, be back with more.:drinker: Please note in the ""endurance and weight resistive"" group lost 10 lbs of fat and gained 2 lbs. of lean muscle during the 8 week study. (please note: the "endurance and weight resistive"" group only did 15 minutes per day of weight resistant exercises)
http://exrx.net/FatLoss/WT&End.html
Wayne Westcott, Ph.D. conducted a study in which 72 over weight individuals participated in an eight week exercise program. The participants were placed in two groups. The first group performed 30 minutes of endurance exercise on a stationary cycle. The second group performed only 15 minutes of exercise on the stationary cycle plus an additional 15 minutes on weight resistant exercises. At the conclusion of the study, the "endurance only" group lost a total of 3.5 lbs.; 3 lbs. of which was fat and a half pound was muscle loss. On the other hand, the "endurance and weight resistive" group lost 8 lbs. with an actual fat loss of 10 lbs. and an increase of 2 lbs. of lean body weight.
(8 week program, 72 over weight individuals) Endurance Training (30 min) Endurance (15 min) & Weight Training (15 min)
Weight Change (lbs) -3.5 -8
Fat Change (lbs) -3 -10
Lean mass Change (lbs) -0.5 2
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Here you go again:
http://getfitguy.quickanddirtytips.com/how-to-lose-fat-and-gain-muscle-at-the-same-time.aspx
What Do Fat Burning and Muscle Building Studies Tell Us?
In a situation like this, the best place to turn is science, which can tell us whether something that seems to be impossible may actually be possible.
One study from California State University tracked a group of healthy men for eight weeks. The men ate a lot of food--over 4000 calories a day--and did weight training four days a week for 60-90 minutes. The men gained an average of six pounds of muscle, but also gained ½ pound of fat. In another study, men also trained with weights several times a week, but this time, they ate just a little over 2000 calories a day. This group gained 2.5 pounds of muscle and lost over 7 pounds of fat!
What About Fat Burning and Muscle Building Studies with Women?
A similar set of studies were done on women. Women who performed weight training workouts for eight weeks, but didn’t diet, added 2.4 pounds of muscle, but didn’t lose much fat. In the same study, a group of women who dieted added a pound of muscle over the same time frame, but lost a significant amount of fat0 -
These studies don't show calorie deficit. It did show surplus and possible maintenance, but spoke of no weight loss or calorie deficit. Also, if a study that's peer reviewed is done, it would normally name the source where it's rendered from. Which California State University performed the study so an abstract can be examined? Or is this just something the author is just saying?Here you go again:
http://getfitguy.quickanddirtytips.com/how-to-lose-fat-and-gain-muscle-at-the-same-time.aspx
What Do Fat Burning and Muscle Building Studies Tell Us?
In a situation like this, the best place to turn is science, which can tell us whether something that seems to be impossible may actually be possible.
One study from California State University tracked a group of healthy men for eight weeks. The men ate a lot of food--over 4000 calories a day--and did weight training four days a week for 60-90 minutes. The men gained an average of six pounds of muscle, but also gained ½ pound of fat. In another study, men also trained with weights several times a week, but this time, they ate just a little over 2000 calories a day. This group gained 2.5 pounds of muscle and lost over 7 pounds of fat!
What About Fat Burning and Muscle Building Studies with Women?
A similar set of studies were done on women. Women who performed weight training workouts for eight weeks, but didn’t diet, added 2.4 pounds of muscle, but didn’t lose much fat. In the same study, a group of women who dieted added a pound of muscle over the same time frame, but lost a significant amount of fat
Reading the rest of the article (it's from a salesman) it stated another study but gave no source. That's not peer reviewed so basically it's anecdotal because there is no source but hearsay.
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I give up, You will try to discredit anything in order not to admit that your wrong, If you want to see the Californina U., Google it yourself!!! The people in the study ate 2,000 per day lost weight and gained muscle which you have claimed was impossible, If your saying that you can lose weight while not at a deficit then maybe I am wrong and was eating at a surplus but still lost weight 83 lbs over the past year. ( I didnt think it was possible to lose weight while at a surplus)
While your at it google the UConn (Storr) study. Also Im not the only one who has posted in this thread that have gained muscle while on a deficit. I have no problem admiting when I'm wrong, (but Im not this time, Like I said the tape doesnt lie) For example: For the first 3-4 months of my weight loss I kept my fat to under 25 grams per day, I thought by keeping your fat intake low, would allow me to eat more calories and still lose weight.0 -
I give up, You will try to discredit anything in order not to admit that your wrong, If you want to see the Californina U., Google it yourself!!! The people in the study ate 2,000 per day lost weight and gained muscle which you have claimed was impossible, If your saying that you can lose weight while not at a deficit then maybe I am wrong and was eating at a surplus but still lost weight 83 lbs over the past year. ( I didnt think it was possible to lose weight while at a surplus)
While your at it google the UConn (Storr) study. Also Im not the only one who has posted in this thread that have gained muscle while on a deficit. I have no problem admiting when I'm wrong, (but Im not this time, Like I said the tape doesnt lie) For example: For the first 3-4 months of my weight loss I kept my fat to under 25 grams per day, I thought by keeping your fat intake low, would allow me to eat more calories and still lose weight.
I'm not saying you are wrong but I recommend you have more than 25 grams of fat per day otherwise it will limit your dihydrotestosterone conversion ( important for muscle building and keeping you working "downstairs.")0 -
No you are 100% correct!! I currently eat about 60 grams of fat per day.0
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That's the problem. I did google it and nothing came up but the same article. (which if we were debating correctly, I shouldn't have to provide proof of burden). When evidence is to be examined, then there should be an abstract of the actual study. For all I know, this guy who posted the article is anecdotally telling us that a study was done. I just wanted a link to the actual study so I could see the abstract and how it was performed. I haven't asked for anything that is unattainable unless it doesn't exist.I give up, You will try to discredit anything in order not to admit that your wrong. If you want to see the Californina U., Google it yourself!!! The people in the study ate 2,000 per day lost weight and gained muscle which you have claimed was impossible, If your saying that you can lose weight while not at a deficit then maybe I am wrong and was eating at a surplus but still lost weight 83 lbs over the past year. ( I didnt think it was possible to lose weight while at a surplus)
Burden of proof is on you, not me. I shouldn't have to prove your stance. In case you don't know what that means here is the definition:While your at it google the UConn (Storr) study.
the duty of proving a disputed assertion or charge
Again anecdotal evidence isn't evidence. If someone says they saw a UFO or Bigfoot, are we just to accept them at their word? Even if they say "I swear on my life!"?Also Im not the only one who has posted in this thread that have gained muscle while on a deficit. I have no problem admiting when I'm wrong, (but Im not this time, Like I said the tape doesnt lie) For example: For the first 3-4 months of my weight loss I kept my fat to under 25 grams per day, I thought by keeping your fat intake low, would allow me to eat more calories and still lose weight.
Reread a lot of the quotes I reposted of what you said. The dispute isn't that you CAN'T put on ANY muscle on calorie deficit,(we have actually medical evidence to prove that from the types of people that can) the dispute is that it's practically impossible to build noticeable amount while on calorie deficit, but your argumentation (from your posts) is that you have that ability with no evidence (medical or otherwise) to back it.
This isn't to take away from what you achieved. You've done a great job, but from a scientific standpoint, it didn't happen the way you think it did.
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