You Can Gain Muscle On A Calorie Deficit!!
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strength gains and muscle gains, whilst separate do go hand in hand, I challenge any trainer or athlete to try and gain one without the other... throw all the theroycraft and broscience about the place that you like... from my personal experience, eating what I have been eating, I have made strength gains and I have made muscle gains.
gains on low-calorie diets are possible and will happen, I would sooner say it is impossible to prevent muscle mass increasing than I would to say that you cant gain muscle mass on a low-calorie diet0 -
strength gains and muscle gains, whilst separate do go hand in hand, I challenge any trainer or athlete to try and gain one without the other... throw all the theroycraft and broscience about the place that you like... from my personal experience, eating what I have been eating, I have made strength gains and I have made muscle gains.
gains on low-calorie diets are possible and will happen, I would sooner say it is impossible to prevent muscle mass increasing than I would to say that you cant gain muscle mass on a low-calorie diet
Wasn't able to read the full study, but here
"For instance, the increase in maximal contraction force may not solely be explained by increases in muscle cross-sectional area or volume. Rather, an increased “neural drive” to the muscle fibers contributes to the training-induced increase in maximal contractile force, even in the absence of increases in muscle size (27)"
the referenced study was
Moritani T, deVries HA. (1979) Neural factors versus hypertrophy in the time course of muscle strength gain. Am J Phys Med Rehabil 58:115–130.0 -
Cool, so can we agree that a % increase in LBM does not equal a gain in muscle mass, just body recomp? Cool, end thread...0
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There's a lot of studies if you look under NIH, Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism, Journal of Applied Physiology, Journal of International Obesity, American Journal of Sports Medicine, etc. You'll have to sift through since a lot of studies are applied to certain scenarios though.
I think anyone that read thru this thread would say that I tried to answer anyone that took the time to post, ask a question etc. Yes, it is my view that I did put on atleast 10lbs of muscle over the past year while on a deficit. I spent hours trying to locate studies on this subject that either supported my view and that didnt support my view and posted what I found. Meanwhile others keep posting stating that they gained muscle while on a deficit. So please put us out of our misery and post these studies that I cannot find.
I have no need to play dumb. I've more than countered each statement you keep putting out. You don't address them when brought up, you try to deflect them by asking or making statements not even related to the topic we were on.Lol, reading comprehension may not be your best quality either, Because I didnt call you dumb! I said that your either spinning your butt off or PLAYING DUMB, But each and everytime another member posts that they gained muscle and lost fat at the same time, it makes you look like it. (just sayin)
So to make it easy let's go one at a time:
Is it your view that you can put on 10lbs of muscle on a calorie deficit? Simple question. Answer it and then post a study showing that it was actually done. That's it. Just start there and don't go off on some tangent.
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There's more to understanding how physiology, myology and kinesology works then just reading a few articles from bodybuilding.com or livestrong as you can see.
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Checking the BMR calculator and the stats you gave (41 years old, 6' 1.75 inches and weight) I came up with BMR of 2050 (at 213lbs and would be lower at 203). You're possibly (I don't know what your exercise calories are) right at maintenance. And body recomposition has been verified that you can cut fat while not on deficit. It's a balancing act, but it can be done.Now your turn! Straight forward answer, Are you saying that I wasnt at a deficit over the last few weeks consuming 2,400 calories per day and weighing between 204-213 lbs? If so, are you saying that a person can cut fat when not on a deficit? Because if your answer is yes, than I could absolutely be wrong and you right!! And thought I had my macro's set at a deficit over the last 13 months when I had them set at a surplus.
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Have done it with several male clients especially in the 50lb range while they are losing weight at about 1lb a week. Having "synergists" accompany lifts as form and technique get better is partially responsible. Also look at it this way. Many people know how to swing a bat to hit a ball, but few know how to involve their hips and legs to drive more power into the swing. If you learn how to do it, you can increase power into the swing.I have a question (for anyone) regarding strength gains. Please dont think that im trying claim that strength gains is proof etc. of gaining muscle because im not!! I stated this in a prior post in this thread, But in your opinion lets use bench for example, can a beginner increase their max bench 50- 100- 125 lbs etc. from just improving their form and strengthening their existing lean muscle, ligaments, tendons etc without a gain in lean muscle? Once again Im not implying increasing your bench etc. is proof that you gained LM. Just curious to see if there are limitations regarding strength gains from just improving your form and strengthing your existing lean muscle, ligaments and tendons. ect. Thanks.
Same with lifting. If your body learns how to integrate synergist muscles and high contraction power, then increase in weights being lifted without increasing muscle is absolutely possible. Power lifters train this way because many compete in weight classes and usually don't want to increase their body weight, but do want to increase their strength.
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Yes, the vast majority of strength gains actually come from neurological training. Your central nervous system becomes more efficient at using the muscles involved, and the synergistic effect of training the central nervous system to fire stabilizing muscles properly can lead to HUGE gains in strength, without putting on muscle mass. For a very basic example, it doesn't matter if your pectorals can press 300 pounds, if your triceps can only handle 50, you'll be limited until they are properly trained.
THIS. if you haven't studied kinesiology, physiology and myology, then the equating muscle gain as being the result of higher strength gain is not an uncommon thought.***I TOTALY AGREE WITH OP - ITS TRUE*** READ:
I have been calorie deficit diet for almost a year, with the odd blow out every 7 to 14 days... and by blow out I mean about 500 calories above maintenance.
I have been strength training primarily
squats, bench press and deadlifts being the focus of my training.
I started not being able to squat my body weight of 140kg more than 25 times. I can now squat 120 kgs, for reps.
I stated not being able to bench press more than 40 kgs, I can now bench press 100kgs for 1RM and 87kg for reps
I started not being able to hold onto an 80kg deadlift, I can now lock out 160kgs...
I have made these gains whilst eating 500-1000 calories below my maintenance on a daily basis
You have given examples of an increase in strength which doesn't necessarily mean an increase in muscle
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I have a question (for anyone) regarding strength gains. Please dont think that im trying claim that strength gains is proof etc. of gaining muscle because im not!! I stated this in a prior post in this thread, But in your opinion lets use bench for example, can a beginner increase their max bench 50- 100- 125 lbs etc. from just improving their form and strengthening their existing lean muscle, ligaments, tendons etc without a gain in lean muscle? Once again Im not implying increasing your bench etc. is proof that you gained LM. Just curious to see if there are limitations regarding strength gains from just improving your form and strengthing your existing lean muscle, ligaments and tendons. ect. Thanks.
For a better example, look at barbell back squats. Look at how much you can squat with a free barbell, and then look how much more you can squat with a Smith machine. That's because the Smith machine stabilizes the weight, so your central nervous system doesn't have to worry about firing off the weaker stabilizers, and can concentrate more force on the muscles actually doing the work.0 -
Power lifters do it. They compete in weight classes. They DON'T want to be on the low end of their weight class, but train to increase strength without adding personal body weight. Same with competitive Olympic lifters.strength gains and muscle gains, whilst separate do go hand in hand, I challenge any trainer or athlete to try and gain one without the other... throw all the theroycraft and broscience about the place that you like... from my personal experience, eating what I have been eating, I have made strength gains and I have made muscle gains.
gains on low-calorie diets are possible and will happen, I would sooner say it is impossible to prevent muscle mass increasing than I would to say that you cant gain muscle mass on a low-calorie diet
Personal experience is opinion and clinical studies are science based. There's a difference in muscle hypertrophy. You have sarcoplamic and myofibrillar and one deals with size increase while the other with strength increase.
Many bodybuilders who look strong really aren't (like me) compared to guys who are the same weight and don't look strong but can push much more weight doing the same exercise.
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Well I did not know it was possible for a person to lose weight while on a surplus. If this is how I gained lean muscle and lost weight at the same time then I apologize to Niner and everyone else for doubting them. I did not intentionally try to mislead you. Now I do not know If I have been eating at a surplus or not but I am going to try to fiqure it out. I just assumed that since the scale kept decreasing that I was eating at a deficit.
Checking the BMR calculator and the stats you gave (41 years old, 6' 1.75 inches and weight) I came up with BMR of 2050 (at 213lbs and would be lower at 203). You're possibly (I don't know what your exercise calories are) right at maintenance. And body recomposition has been verified that you can cut fat while not on deficit. It's a balancing act, but it can be done.Now your turn! Straight forward answer, Are you saying that I wasnt at a deficit over the last few weeks consuming 2,400 calories per day and weighing between 204-213 lbs? If so, are you saying that a person can cut fat when not on a deficit? Because if your answer is yes, than I could absolutely be wrong and you right!! And thought I had my macro's set at a deficit over the last 13 months when I had them set at a surplus.
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Ok. Since I started weight training 13 months ago, my bench has increased over 150 lbs. Now if this sounds outragous, ( I dont know if it does or not,) please remember that when I started working out that I was so out of shape that I lost my breath by just bending over to tie my shoes.
Have done it with several male clients especially in the 50lb range while they are losing weight at about 1lb a week. Having "synergists" accompany lifts as form and technique get better is partially responsible. Also look at it this way. Many people know how to swing a bat to hit a ball, but few know how to involve their hips and legs to drive more power into the swing. If you learn how to do it, you can increase power into the swing.I have a question (for anyone) regarding strength gains. Please dont think that im trying claim that strength gains is proof etc. of gaining muscle because im not!! I stated this in a prior post in this thread, But in your opinion lets use bench for example, can a beginner increase their max bench 50- 100- 125 lbs etc. from just improving their form and strengthening their existing lean muscle, ligaments, tendons etc without a gain in lean muscle? Once again Im not implying increasing your bench etc. is proof that you gained LM. Just curious to see if there are limitations regarding strength gains from just improving your form and strengthing your existing lean muscle, ligaments and tendons. ect. Thanks.
Same with lifting. If your body learns how to integrate synergist muscles and high contraction power, then increase in weights being lifted without increasing muscle is absolutely possible. Power lifters train this way because many compete in weight classes and usually don't want to increase their body weight, but do want to increase their strength.
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The same is true with football players, wrestlers, Mixed Martial artists, boxers etc,, etc. etc.
Power lifters do it. They compete in weight classes. They DON'T want to be on the low end of their weight class, but train to increase strength without adding personal body weight. Same with competitive Olympic lifters.strength gains and muscle gains, whilst separate do go hand in hand, I challenge any trainer or athlete to try and gain one without the other... throw all the theroycraft and broscience about the place that you like... from my personal experience, eating what I have been eating, I have made strength gains and I have made muscle gains.
gains on low-calorie diets are possible and will happen, I would sooner say it is impossible to prevent muscle mass increasing than I would to say that you cant gain muscle mass on a low-calorie diet
Personal experience is opinion and clinical studies are science based. There's a difference in muscle hypertrophy. You have sarcoplamic and myofibrillar and one deals with size increase while the other with strength increase.
Many bodybuilders who look strong really aren't (like me) compared to guys who are the same weight and don't look strong but can push much more weight doing the same exercise.
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I didn't state you could lose weight on surplus, I verified that body recomposition (lose fat, gain muscle) on surplus was possible. In fact you posted pictures on people that have done it.
Well I did not know it was possible for a person to lose weight while on a surplus. If this is how I gained lean muscle and lost weight at the same time then I apologize to Niner and everyone else for doubting them. I did not intentionally try to mislead you. Now I do not know If I have been eating at a surplus or not but I am going to try to fiqure it out. I just assumed that since the scale kept decreasing that I was eating at a deficit.
Checking the BMR calculator and the stats you gave (41 years old, 6' 1.75 inches and weight) I came up with BMR of 2050 (at 213lbs and would be lower at 203). You're possibly (I don't know what your exercise calories are) right at maintenance. And body recomposition has been verified that you can cut fat while not on deficit. It's a balancing act, but it can be done.Now your turn! Straight forward answer, Are you saying that I wasnt at a deficit over the last few weeks consuming 2,400 calories per day and weighing between 204-213 lbs? If so, are you saying that a person can cut fat when not on a deficit? Because if your answer is yes, than I could absolutely be wrong and you right!! And thought I had my macro's set at a deficit over the last 13 months when I had them set at a surplus.
A.C.E. Certified Personal & Group FitnessTrainer
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Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
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It was covered in the first few posts and continued from there.I couldn't be bothered reading through 15 pages of this. Why is everyone getting so upset and arguing when the first SCIENTIFICAL thing to do would be to state your means of monitoring your body composition. How, OP, did you track how much muscle you gained? How did you track/measure how much fat you loss, etc. Showing some pics means absolutely nothing in regards to body composition. As one loses fat, they can appear more muscular even when losing muscle at the same time! I can't believe this thread is 15 pages long! I don't get it. Again, here we go with anecdotals and no scientific anything.
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Such a simple request to substantiate an argument becomes a lesson in futility
Amen0 -
Only got about 6 pages into this thread- bump for later!0
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My head hurts... I already know the answer and dont care to weight in0
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Nope not pissed at all, Just dont like trolls and wont feed them either, who only post in a thread ( like you have done thru out this one) to try to make themselves look better by trying to make others look like an *kitten* and never post anything constructive.
LOL okay?????
You are obviously pissed off because you argument has fallen completely apart in the face of science and facts, those pesky things. Don't take it out on those of us who took the time to try to help you. You've insulted everyone who bothered sticking around to explain things to you, and you obviously have no sense of humor either. You called ninerbuff "dumb" earlier then resorted to this utterly lame insult towards me and reported this original post because funny = insulting but blatantly insulting right back is just fine.
You lost your argument many times over and have, in fact, just talked in circles in the last several pages intermingled with your lame insults and name-calling. Agree to disagree and move on or start providing peer-reviewed legitimate science to backup your claims.
Resorting to name-calling and insulting people while reporting others for saying anything to you is hypocritical and just makes you look worse.
As far as being wrong, Niner just explained to me that it is possible that I wasnt at a deficit, Is he right? It is possible and I cannot say he is wrong. But No one was going to tell me that I didnt gain the amount of muscle that I have at the same time as losing as much fat as I have. Because I did!! And until Niner pointed out that I might not have been at a deficit and explained to me that you can lose weight while on a deficit ( something I thought was impossible) I wasnt gonna budge. So im not pissed at all. Going to try to fiqure out if I am/was on a surplus and admit to everyone here that I was wrong If I am. Wont be the first time or the last. But pissed?? No. But I guess you have never been wrong before.0 -
Nope not pissed at all, Just dont like trolls and wont feed them either, who only post in a thread ( like you have done thru out this one) to try to make themselves look better by trying to make others look like an *kitten* and never post anything constructive.
LOL okay?????
You are obviously pissed off because you argument has fallen completely apart in the face of science and facts, those pesky things. Don't take it out on those of us who took the time to try to help you. You've insulted everyone who bothered sticking around to explain things to you, and you obviously have no sense of humor either. You called ninerbuff "dumb" earlier then resorted to this utterly lame insult towards me and reported this original post because funny = insulting but blatantly insulting right back is just fine.
You lost your argument many times over and have, in fact, just talked in circles in the last several pages intermingled with your lame insults and name-calling. Agree to disagree and move on or start providing peer-reviewed legitimate science to backup your claims.
Resorting to name-calling and insulting people while reporting others for saying anything to you is hypocritical and just makes you look worse.
As far as being wrong, Niner just explained to me that it is possible that I wasnt at a deficit, Is he right? It is possible and I cannot say he is wrong. But No one was going to tell me that I didnt gain the amount of muscle that I have at the same time as losing as much fat as I have. Because I did!! And until Niner pointed out that I might not have been at a deficit and explained to me that you can lose weight while on a deficit ( something I thought was impossible) I wasnt gonna budge. So im not pissed at all. Going to try to fiqure out if I am/was on a surplus and admit to everyone here that I was wrong If I am. Wont be the first time or the last. But pissed?? No. But I guess you have never been wrong before.
I've been wrong before, but I don't resort to name-calling and lame insults. Being wrong doesn't mean being an overly defensive jerk. Not sure why that's so difficult. The only thing anyone has done in this thread is ask you to provide SCIENTIFIC evidence to backup your claim, and you have failed to do so while continuing to spread your beliefs based on anecdotal evidence.
You are, in fact, very wrong about your muscle gains on a calorie deficit. I already mentioned several pages back that unless you have a body scan done before and after, you have no idea if you actually gained or lost lean mass PERIOD. This is not an argument that is debatable. It's a fact. YOU HAVE NO QUANTITATIVE MEASURE OF WHETHER YOU GAINED OR LOST LEAN MASS. NONE....
I don't understand why this is so hard for you to get through your head. Tigersword explained this to you also. ninerbuff explained it to you further. Again, both were ignored, then you called ninerbuff's argument "dumb" after he asked you for verification on the article you posted.
I did post constructive comments early on, which you dismissed and ignored like everyone else who did the same. This is why there's only a handful of people with more patience that stuck with your ignorance and continued circular arguments tinged with rudeness and insults.
You clearly have no sense of humor. I did not troll your thread. I think you have no idea what that word means. Again, you still insulted me blatantly immediately after reporting me for insulting you (which I clearly did not do).0 -
Ok, sorry If I misquoted you etc., Is it possible thru body recomposition to lose 80 + lbs. on a surplus in a year?
I didn't state you could lose weight on surplus, I verified that body recomposition (lose fat, gain muscle) on surplus was possible. In fact you posted pictures on people that have done it.
Well I did not know it was possible for a person to lose weight while on a surplus. If this is how I gained lean muscle and lost weight at the same time then I apologize to Niner and everyone else for doubting them. I did not intentionally try to mislead you. Now I do not know If I have been eating at a surplus or not but I am going to try to fiqure it out. I just assumed that since the scale kept decreasing that I was eating at a deficit.
Checking the BMR calculator and the stats you gave (41 years old, 6' 1.75 inches and weight) I came up with BMR of 2050 (at 213lbs and would be lower at 203). You're possibly (I don't know what your exercise calories are) right at maintenance. And body recomposition has been verified that you can cut fat while not on deficit. It's a balancing act, but it can be done.Now your turn! Straight forward answer, Are you saying that I wasnt at a deficit over the last few weeks consuming 2,400 calories per day and weighing between 204-213 lbs? If so, are you saying that a person can cut fat when not on a deficit? Because if your answer is yes, than I could absolutely be wrong and you right!! And thought I had my macro's set at a deficit over the last 13 months when I had them set at a surplus.
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can't you eat more on the days you do some heavy weights and less on the other days. If you eat a good meal of carbs/protein right after a workout and eat fairly high that day, and hten the days you aren't doing weights eat under you would still have a calorie defiicit over all, but gain some muscle when your body repairs on the days you work out?0
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I pretty much eat the same exact things every day, regardless if its a weight training day or a cardio day. Currently its 2,400 calories, 60 grams of fat, 225 grams of protein and I eat a diet that is high in carbs every day. I thought at a certain point that I would have to drasticly reduce the amount of carbs I eat every day to get rid of the last bit of fat but ended up not having to do so.can't you eat more on the days you do some heavy weights and less on the other days. If you eat a good meal of carbs/protein right after a workout and eat fairly high that day, and hten the days you aren't doing weights eat under you would still have a calorie defiicit over all, but gain some muscle when your body repairs on the days you work out?0 -
First I never called Niners arqument dumb, I said he is either spinning his butt off or playing dumb""
Nope not pissed at all, Just dont like trolls and wont feed them either, who only post in a thread ( like you have done thru out this one) to try to make themselves look better by trying to make others look like an *kitten* and never post anything constructive.
LOL okay?????
You are obviously pissed off because you argument has fallen completely apart in the face of science and facts, those pesky things. Don't take it out on those of us who took the time to try to help you. You've insulted everyone who bothered sticking around to explain things to you, and you obviously have no sense of humor either. You called ninerbuff "dumb" earlier then resorted to this utterly lame insult towards me and reported this original post because funny = insulting but blatantly insulting right back is just fine.
You lost your argument many times over and have, in fact, just talked in circles in the last several pages intermingled with your lame insults and name-calling. Agree to disagree and move on or start providing peer-reviewed legitimate science to backup your claims.
Resorting to name-calling and insulting people while reporting others for saying anything to you is hypocritical and just makes you look worse.
As far as being wrong, Niner just explained to me that it is possible that I wasnt at a deficit, Is he right? It is possible and I cannot say he is wrong. But No one was going to tell me that I didnt gain the amount of muscle that I have at the same time as losing as much fat as I have. Because I did!! And until Niner pointed out that I might not have been at a deficit and explained to me that you can lose weight while on a deficit ( something I thought was impossible) I wasnt gonna budge. So im not pissed at all. Going to try to fiqure out if I am/was on a surplus and admit to everyone here that I was wrong If I am. Wont be the first time or the last. But pissed?? No. But I guess you have never been wrong before.
I've been wrong before, but I don't resort to name-calling and lame insults. Being wrong doesn't mean being an overly defensive jerk. Not sure why that's so difficult. The only thing anyone has done in this thread is ask you to provide SCIENTIFIC evidence to backup your claim, and you have failed to do so while continuing to spread your beliefs based on anecdotal evidence.
You are, in fact, very wrong about your muscle gains on a calorie deficit. I already mentioned several pages back that unless you have a body scan done before and after, you have no idea if you actually gained or lost lean mass PERIOD. This is not an argument that is debatable. It's a fact. YOU HAVE NO QUANTITATIVE MEASURE OF WHETHER YOU GAINED OR LOST LEAN MASS. NONE....
I don't understand why this is so hard for you to get through your head. Tigersword explained this to you also. ninerbuff explained it to you further. Again, both were ignored, then you called ninerbuff's argument "dumb" after he asked you for verification on the article you posted.
I did post constructive comments early on, which you dismissed and ignored like everyone else who did the same. This is why there's only a handful of people with more patience that stuck with your ignorance and continued circular arguments tinged with rudeness and insults.
You clearly have no sense of humor. I did not troll your thread. I think you have no idea what that word means. Again, you still insulted me blatantly immediately after reporting me for insulting you (which I clearly did not do).
2nd. You can say that I am wrong all you want about my LM muscle gains, I do know! And I didnt need body scans either!! MY doctor has a tape measure, the trainers at the gym have a tape measure, I have a tape measure. If your doctor told you how much lean muscle you gained would you believe him? I believe mine, I also believe the trainers at my gym. If you dont believe me, no big deal, just like im sure you dont care if I believe you about something or. You would take your doctors opinion over mine each and every time and I dont blame you.0 -
Wow- after reading this whole thread I have learned approximately nothing new
My husband has recently lost some weight and "looks" more muscular- however I know for a fact he hasn't "gained" muscle as that is impossible for a man eating 1900 calories a day! All he has done is cut the fat off what was already a fairly muscular physique so that the muscles appear more defined.
I believe that is the same case with the OP (who will probably shoot me for saying so!)0 -
bump0
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Wow- after reading this whole thread I have learned approximately nothing new
My husband has recently lost some weight and "looks" more muscular- however I know for a fact he hasn't "gained" muscle as that is impossible for a man eating 1900 calories a day! All he has done is cut the fat off what was already a fairly muscular physique so that the muscles appear more defined.
I believe that is the same case with the OP (who will probably shoot me for saying so!)
That's pretty much the situation I'm in as well. I know there are a bunch of muscles under there somewhere. I just can't quite remember what they look like. :laugh:0 -
I wish this thread quoted the same series of pictures more often.
Other than that, I'm grateful to those of you who continue to provide well-researched information, and point me in the direction to research things myself.0 -
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Wow- after reading this whole thread I have learned approximately nothing new
Thank you....I am not going to read it now.0 -
LOL, I've been following this thread since first posted and 1/4 of the way in I figured out the entire thing was just a misconstrued mess. Let me tell you, I've learned one thing, it's that if I could gain actual "muscle" on a deficit I would have saved tons of money on eating during my last bulk. :P
Beauty is I know that would have been a waste of 4-5 months of training with none of the results I was going for. Now I'm off to retain my new lean mass by lifting while cutting, oh the logic is strong.
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