You Can Gain Muscle On A Calorie Deficit!!

abramroyy

The Bench Press Record (BPR) recognized the need for lifters and spectators to know all of the records across the nation and world with so many federations and The International Powerlifting Federation (IPF) is the governing body which overlooks most powerlifting and its federation.If you more interested in Powerlifting and want to know about the tips and suggestions to improve your bench press record ,Not only are we covering the Bench Press, but the Deadlift, Squat and Powerlifting in general will also be organized. I had gone through the post. Add one compound at most each cycle, as this sis the first keep less. If you start taking 2 pounds on your first cycle, and you have a reaction or side effect, You won't know which compound is causing it. First check all that consequences and then proceed. All the best.



bench press tips
Bench Press Max

Ambrogio1

There's no reason to believe you can't build muscle on a calorie deficit. Microtears still occur within the muscle tissue, and those tears must still be repaired. You've got all the fundamentals of building muscle mass.

With that said, it will go a LOT more slowly than if you were on a surplus. You will still have a net weight loss of course, since we're still bound by thermodynamics. I would suspect to see a slight muscle gain with a higher-than-normal fat burn, so you would have to work out substantially beyond standard cardio to make up the differences.

I agree 100%

I got alot stronger through 1.5 yrs on deficit. I am currently toying with my cals and macros to gain some more muscle.
I am going to do carb/cal cycling a bit and eat at a maitanence mostly for my food. I then wil not eat back my workout cals. Thus I suppose I will be at a deficit every week. I shall grow with this, if not I will adjust up

ArroganceInStep

tigersword & rtalencar85, I understand what you guys are saying about different, lighting, poses, angles camera's etc. can make a person look larger etc. But show me just one pic. out of the dozen or so pics I have posted that was taken in an earlier month that the camera, lighting, pose. angle etc. made me look larger than any pic. that was taken at a later date. Just one!!

2nd. Even if I got MRI.'s done it would not be considered proof here by people who doubt me. Why? Because I also posted that my measurements over the past 13 months have always stayed the same or increased. So my word isnt good enough and if my word isnt good enough about measurements than it wouldnt be good enough for MRI. results either. ( If my intent was to mislead people I could have easily made up MRI results and posted them) because they would just doubt the results just like they did the pics and the measurements. So basicly I have done all I could do. Thanks be polite and civil even though we disagree on this subject.
But I really would like to see some proof if anyone has some case studies etc. about how much LM. can be gained by gaining fat.
The knowledgeable people I have talked too said it is possible but not to the extent that people have stated here,

I'll see what I can find regarding LBM gain with fat gain and will get back to you. Also, I at least have been extremely careful not to post specific numbers. The problem with me saying 'You gained 80 pounds? Well 20 lbs of that was muscle' is that I have no basis for that claim. I have been very careful to say 'more of the muscle you have now is the result of your original weight gain than you probably think, and less of your current physique is the result of actual muscle increase during the cut than you probably think.' I can't speak to numbers directly without knowing a whole lot more about your circumstances. Yes you can gain marginal amounts of muscle mass in very specific scenarios (repair != new growth, and I'm also not going to specify numbers as they vary from person to person) but in comparison to the bulk/cut paradigm for that person it isn't much. You have already agreed with me on that, our difference in opinions is that you think weight lifting while cutting is important with the goal of increasing muscle mass. I think that weight lifting while cutting is important with the goal of maximizing muscle retention (and if you gain a small amount of muscle in the process that's great, but it shouldn't be the expectation). It's a small difference, but I believe it to be an important one.

I certainly recognize that my stance could be very frustrating for you. For all practical purposes you have posted absolutely everything that you could to define your point. I certainly don't expect you to have a slew of scientists following you around to peer review every meal/lifting session/bowel movement you may engage in. That's completely impractical. I also recognize that you have tried to provide more than just pictures (i.e. your measurements and such). While they are certainly impressive, I hope you can understand at least why I'm being skeptical (again, I don't think you're lying, just that I think the explanation for your results isn't what you think it is). I honestly don't think there's anything that you directly could have done that would change my mind in this regard; there are so many internal and external forces going on that could skew the results that no one under reasonable circumstances could definitively prove such a claim. It would take a 'quadrouple blind, havard funded test' for me to think otherwise.

I can think of scenarios in my own personal experience that are very similar. I've been lifting heavy again since January and have lost about 40 lbs thus far. My traps look WAY bigger than they ever did before I started lifting. Now I started at 315, power lifted in college, and am on a diet geared towards LBM retention (Rapid Fat Loss Handbook, it's a PSMF) so I have all the odds in my favor between obesity and coming off a long period of inactivity and getting adequate protein. The problem is that I didn't take specific measurements of my traps before I started this. I don't have any proof beyond the fact that they look a lot bigger and my clothes fit different now. Other things that were mentioned could also be at play here (water retention, glycogen storage, etc). It's impossible for me to separate actual muscle increases from the whole host of other bodily stuff that's going on.

I'm not going to try to come up with different reasons why your results mean you didn't grow new muscle. It certainly wouldn't change your mind and would, at worst, come off as a personal attack on you. That's not my goal. I just hope that, while taking into account the fact that I truly believe your progress has more to do with fat loss and pre-existing LBM than actual muscle gain on a deficit, you can recognize that I am not in any way trying to undermine your efforts or your progress thus far. Quite the opposite in fact.

Jeff92se

Then how do you know you didn't gain muscle?

ArroganceInStep

Then how do you know you didn't gain muscle?

The direct answer is: I don't. In the same way I don't feel Pike's case proves muscle growth, my case cannot prove that muscle growth didn't occur. It's anecdotal. That was my entire point.



Also, the best study I could find (by 'find' I mean grab from one of Acg's posts) on short notice was:
http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/307/1/47.abstract

You can take this however you want, but the outside end of calories stored as fat in the study was 90%. In your case the worst case would be 7.4 additional lbs of LBM. If your diet had a lot of protein in it, that could be skewed more in favor of LBM. Take that amount, add a small amount of growth as a result of being overweight and a new lifter, and I think that would cover your results for the most part. That's my interpretation of the study anyhow.

Jeff92se

Well you could also assume you did until you prove you didn't. But I'd think you rather assume you didn't and claim no one can.

I'd say he'd have a much harder time gaining muscle now vs before. But I don't think he was particularly obese and I also think a 150lb bench improvement on the basis of newbie gains and technique is stretching it a bit.

ArroganceInStep

Well you could also assume you did until you prove you didn't. But I'd think you rather assume you didn't and claim no one can.

I'd say he'd have a much harder time gaining muscle now vs before. But I don't think he was particularly obese and I also think a 150lb bench improvement on the basis of newbie gains and technique is stretching it a bit.

I never said you couldn't, just that they would be marginal and only under very specific circumstances. I have stated multiple times that I do think he gained some muscle mass, I just stipulated that I thought it was a very small amount. As for the 150lb improvement, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Jeff92se

Well you could also assume you did until you prove you didn't. But I'd think you rather assume you didn't and claim no one can.

I'd say he'd have a much harder time gaining muscle now vs before. But I don't think he was particularly obese and I also think a 150lb bench improvement on the basis of newbie gains and technique is stretching it a bit.

I never said you couldn't, just that they would be marginal and only under very specific circumstances. I have stated multiple times that I do think he gained some muscle mass, I just stipulated that I thought it was a very small amount. As for the 150lb improvement, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Under what conditions does he fall under? Obese? I can't see he was obese. Long layoff? That might account for his bench. I'm not sure if he's higher than before. I took a long layoff also but didn't lose 150lbs of my bench, nor did I gain 150lbs in the bench. Newbie gains? I don't think there is newbie gains if he's lifted before.

ArroganceInStep

Under what conditions does he fall under? Obese? I can't see he was obese. Long layoff? That might account for his bench. I'm not sure if he's higher than before. I took a long layoff also but didn't lose 150lbs of my bench, nor did I gain 150lbs in the bench. Newbie gains? I don't think there is newbie gains if he's lifted before.

Seeing as how he started at 278, I think that qualifies as obese. Guessing his height at 6 feet, that's a BMI of 37.7. He'd have to be 6 foot 9 to have a bmi in the overweight range.

Jeff92se

Under what conditions does he fall under? Obese? I can't see he was obese. Long layoff? That might account for his bench. I'm not sure if he's higher than before. I took a long layoff also but didn't lose 150lbs of my bench, nor did I gain 150lbs in the bench. Newbie gains? I don't think there is newbie gains if he's lifted before.

Seeing as how he started at 278, I think that qualifies as obese. Guessing his height at 6 feet, that's a BMI of 37.7. He'd have to be 6 foot 9 to have a bmi in the overweight range.

According to BMI. I'm overweight at 175lbs at 5'7". Athough my BF is probably less than 19% now. I was measured at 19% at 180lbs.

ArroganceInStep

You're trying to say he was less than 30% BF? 30% BF at 278 means 194.6 pounds lbm. He's 204 now. Pick your poison but trying to argue he wasn't obese initially and that he gained mass on the cut would basically be saying he's at a negative BF% now.

Jeff92se

You're trying to say he was less than 30% BF? 30% BF at 278 means 194.6 pounds lbm. He's 204 now. Pick your poison but trying to argue he wasn't obese initially and that he gained mass on the cut would basically be saying he's at a negative BF% now.

I guess I'm trying to get you to define "obese". I'm also saying that BMI is a poor indicator of health/body mass.

Also with your theory, as soon as he got below the "obese" bf %, he'd no longer be gaining muscle mass. You think that happened?

ArroganceInStep

I guess I'm trying to get you to define "obese". I'm also saying that BMI is a poor indicator of health/body mass.

Also with your theory, as soon as he got below the "obese" bf %, he'd no longer be gaining muscle mass. You think that happened?

Ugh, I used BMI because it was quick and, in my opinion, very clearly shows that he had substantial body fat to lose. I use obese not because I think under 30% it magically stops, but because I think it tapers off to nothing very quickly as your BF% starts to decrease. Exactly when that happens would vary from individual to individual. The point is that even still, I don't think muscle mass increases are that substantial on a deficit.

Jeff92se

I guess I'm trying to get you to define "obese". I'm also saying that BMI is a poor indicator of health/body mass.

Also with your theory, as soon as he got below the "obese" bf %, he'd no longer be gaining muscle mass. You think that happened?

Ugh, I used BMI because it was quick and, in my opinion, very clearly shows that he had substantial body fat to lose. I use obese not because I think under 30% it magically stops, but because I think it tapers off to nothing very quickly as your BF% starts to decrease. Exactly when that happens would vary from individual to individual. The point is that even still, I don't think muscle mass increases are that substantial on a deficit.

At what BF does it start and stop? If it differs from person to person, why do you think muscle gains can't happen to THIS person? As a 150lb bench improvement would seem to indicate.

ArroganceInStep

At what BF does it start and stop? If it differs from person to person, why do you think muscle gains can't happen to THIS person? As a 150lb bench improvement would seem to indicate.

I have stated multiple times that I do think he gained some muscle mass, I just stipulated that I thought it was a very small amount.

Jeff92se

How small? I don't see 150lb bench improvement and small necessarily belonging together.

ArroganceInStep

How small? I don't see 150lb bench improvement and small necessarily belonging together.

How small? I don't know. I've stated already that specific numbers would be impossible to determine given the information available. If you want me to wave my hands at it and guess at a number, fine. I think he gained 2.267634532123412142 lbs of muscle mass in the year he was cutting.

As for the 150 lb bench improvement, I have already stated that we would just have to disagree on that particular point. I think that, with a small muscle mass increase and a lot of work on form and neural conditioning, a 150lb improvement is possible. I also think it's a magnitude increase he'll never see again.

Ripken818836701

Under what conditions does he fall under? Obese? I can't see he was obese. Long layoff? That might account for his bench. I'm not sure if he's higher than before. I took a long layoff also but didn't lose 150lbs of my bench, nor did I gain 150lbs in the bench. Newbie gains? I don't think there is newbie gains if he's lifted before.

Seeing as how he started at 278, I think that qualifies as obese. Guessing his height at 6 feet, that's a BMI of 37.7. He'd have to be 6 foot 9 to have a bmi in the overweight range.

I will be back later when I have more time but just wanted say that according to BMI. at my Dr. visit in Jan. I was considered obese at 217-218 lbs and I was 213 lbs in my profile pic.
2nd., There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with me on this subject and take no offense to it. Especially on a topic like this.

Jeff92se

How small? I don't see 150lb bench improvement and small necessarily belonging together.

How small? I don't know. I've stated already that specific numbers would be impossible to determine given the information available. If you want me to wave my hands at it and guess at a number, fine. I think he gained 2.267634532123412142 lbs of muscle mass in the year he was cutting.

As for the 150 lb bench improvement, I have already stated that we would just have to disagree on that particular point. I think that, with a small muscle mass increase and a lot of work on form and neural conditioning, a 150lb improvement is possible. I also think it's a magnitude increase he'll never see again.

He claimed he gaimed more than that. But I don't think he claimed he gained "masive" amounts like everyone is trying to descredit him for.

You think it's more likely that he trained so specifically and correctly that his 150lb gain is not from a mucle mass increase? Did you see anything in the thread that he trained like you were describing? Remember, it's not theory, he actually gained 150lbs on his bench press.

AeolianHarp

A deep, scientific explanation of gaining muscle on a cut:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0bOn6BwlUs

Well you could also assume you did until you prove you didn't. But I'd think you rather assume you didn't and claim no one can.

I'd say he'd have a much harder time gaining muscle now vs before. But I don't think he was particularly obese and I also think a 150lb bench improvement on the basis of newbie gains and technique is stretching it a bit.

150lb bench improvement can be on the basis of neuromuscular efficiency. Strength can increase independently of muscle gain but muscle gain cannot happen independently of strength increase (as progressive overload is essential to muscle gain).

Why do you think many lifters can remain in the same weight class or eat at maintenance for their entire careers yet get considerably stronger? Neuromuscular efficiency. This accounts for most people's strength, not their muscles, even though larger muscles aid in increase strength since a larger muscle can contract harder and produce more force (as per the repetition effort method).

Jeff92se

A deep, scientific explanation of gaining muscle on a cut:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0bOn6BwlUs

Well you could also assume you did until you prove you didn't. But I'd think you rather assume you didn't and claim no one can.

I'd say he'd have a much harder time gaining muscle now vs before. But I don't think he was particularly obese and I also think a 150lb bench improvement on the basis of newbie gains and technique is stretching it a bit.

150lb bench improvement can be on the basis of neuromuscular efficiency. Strength can increase independently of muscle gain but muscle gain cannot happen independently of strength increase (as progressive overload is essential to muscle gain).

Why do you think many lifters can remain in the same weight class or eat at maintenance for their entire careers yet get considerably stronger? Neuromuscular efficiency. This accounts for most people's strength, not their muscles, even though larger muscles aid in increase strength since a larger muscle can contract harder and produce more force (as per the repetition effort method).

I couldn't maintain my same weight over the few years I powerlifted. Have you gained 150lbs in your bench while maintaining yoru same weight?

Also people could be fat at XX weight and continue to gain lean muscle mass while cutting their bodyfat. That would allow them to stay at their class

ArroganceInStep

He claimed he gaimed more than that. But I don't think he claimed he gained "masive" amounts like everyone is trying to descredit him for.

You think it's more likely that he trained so specifically and correctly that his 150lb gain is not from a mucle mass increase? Did you see anything in the thread that he trained like you were describing? Remember, it's not theory, he actually gained 150lbs on his bench press.

Did I misspell massive somewhere? How embarrassing.

As for numbers, 10 lbs of muscle to increase arm diameter by an inch was explicity mentioned in this thread. Since that was just in his arms, I did take that to mean a 'massive' increase.

And yes, I do think that you can increase your bench by 150 lbs with only a minor increase in muscle mass after a year of training.

Jeff92se

He claimed he gaimed more than that. But I don't think he claimed he gained "masive" amounts like everyone is trying to descredit him for.

You think it's more likely that he trained so specifically and correctly that his 150lb gain is not from a mucle mass increase? Did you see anything in the thread that he trained like you were describing? Remember, it's not theory, he actually gained 150lbs on his bench press.

Did I misspell massive somewhere? How embarrassing.

As for numbers, 10 lbs of muscle to increase arm diameter by an inch was explicity mentioned in this thread. Since that was just in his arms, I did take that to mean a 'massive' increase.

And yes, I do think that you can increase your bench by 150 lbs with only a minor increase in muscle mass after a year of training.

Yes you did.

Have you accomplished this? I powerlifted for a few years and I could not do this. As far as I know, he wasn't under any specific training program technical enough to accomplish this within the bounds of your description. Nor was I aware that that was his specific goal to do so. Which would seem to be required to do such specific work.

AeolianHarp

I couldn't maintain my same weight over the few years I powerlifted. Have you gained 150lbs in your bench while maintaining yoru same weight?

Also people could be fat at XX weight and continue to gain lean muscle mass while cutting their bodyfat. That would allow them to stay at their class

I have not but I know of people who have and there are Olympic lifters who never leave their weight class. Obviously they cut weight because they have gained some muscle mass but it's completely plausible to gain 150lbs on your bench while gaining some muscle mass to very little to none. It really depends on the individual.

Also, he says he gained 150lbs on his bench. We aren't even sure if he's using full range of motion or anything. If he gained 150lbs via ****ty technique then he may have gained very little muscle mass.

All we're going to be doing, though, is back and forth since we aren't sure of anything. In the end, chances are, he did probably gain muscle. How much or how little is up in the air but there are plenty of people who get considerably stronger yet gain very little muscle mass, especially if their fat stores are small.

Jeff92se

I couldn't maintain my same weight over the few years I powerlifted. Have you gained 150lbs in your bench while maintaining yoru same weight?

Also people could be fat at XX weight and continue to gain lean muscle mass while cutting their bodyfat. That would allow them to stay at their class

I have not but I know of people who have and there are Olympic lifters who never leave their weight class. Obviously they cut weight because they have gained some muscle mass but it's completely plausible to gain 150lbs on your bench while gaining some muscle mass to very little to none. It really depends on the individual.

Also, he says he gained 150lbs on his bench. We aren't even sure if he's using full range of motion or anything. If he gained 150lbs via ****ty technique then he may have gained very little muscle mass.

All we're going to be doing, though, is back and forth since we aren't sure of anything. In the end, chances are, he did probably gain muscle. How much or how little is up in the air but there are plenty of people who get considerably stronger yet gain very little muscle mass, especially if their fat stores are small.

Just because they don't leave their weight class, doesn't mean they aren't gaining muscle. Like you said, they gained muscle mass. I just assumed he's using the same technique as he lifted 150lbs less. So I assume ti's good or bad thoughout. .

No one said you can't lift more via technique. I just said a 150lb increase is too much to be accounted for just via technique. I'd also have to say, it would take more than a "little bit" of muscle mass gain to achieve this. Obviously a combo of both as he's not "massively" bigger than before.

Pronoiac

Bump for guilty, empty entertaiment later.

Elizabeth_C34

I just said a 150lb increase is too much to be accounted for just via technique. I'd also have to say, it would take more than a "little bit" of muscle mass gain to achieve this. Obviously a combo of both as he's not "massively" bigger than before.

This is really a poor way to state your point.

Firstly, 150 lb increases can be accomplished with improvements in technique. Furthermore, we have no idea HOW he measured those lifting gains. Did he measure them by the first day of lifting with very poor technique compared to 6 months later once technique has been mastered? Did he measure before he knew how to accurately guage his 1 rep max?

Secondly, strength gain improvements do not mean muscle tissue gains. Again, I lost 6 lbs of muscle and my leg press has gone from 90 lb max (full range of motion) to 225 lb max (full range of motion). My max curl went from 15 lbs to 30 lbs (1 rep max). My dumbell bench max went from 15 lb (each arm) to 35 lb (each arm) both 1 rep maxes. All of this while LOSING muscle tissue.

ArroganceInStep

I couldn't maintain my same weight over the few years I powerlifted. Have you gained 150lbs in your bench while maintaining yoru same weight?

Also people could be fat at XX weight and continue to gain lean muscle mass while cutting their bodyfat. That would allow them to stay at their class

You're missing the point. Can pike bench 300 (sorry don't remember the exact number) with his current physique? Yes, of course he can. Obviously, he's doing it.

Now I contend that the vast majority of muscle mass Pike has now was already there when he was at his heaviest, and he only gained a small amount of muscle while cutting. Said pre-existing muscle was 'weak' and unused to lifting, so at that point his starting weight of 135 was challenging to him. After a year of heavy training, and a very small amount of muscle gain on a cut, he's where he's at now. The argument is not if it's possible to lift X lbs with Y lbs of muscle mass, that's not under debate here. The argument is over when the muscle mass he has now was put on. It was clearly conditioned during his cut, but I think a lot of it was already there.

Also if you couldn't maintain your total weight while power lifting that means you were eating too much. It has nothing to do with the fact that you were lifting.

Jeff92se

I just said a 150lb increase is too much to be accounted for just via technique. I'd also have to say, it would take more than a "little bit" of muscle mass gain to achieve this. Obviously a combo of both as he's not "massively" bigger than before.

This is really a poor way to state your point.

Firstly, 150 lb increases can be accomplished with improvements in technique. Furthermore, we have no idea HOW he measured those lifting gains.

Secondly, strength gain improvements do not mean muscle tissue gains. Again, I lost 6 lbs of muscle and my leg press has gone from 90 lb max (full range of motion) to 225 lb max (full range of motion). My max curl went from 15 lbs to 20 lbs. My dumbell bench max went from 15 lb (each arm) to 25 lb (each arm). All of this while LOSING muscle tissue.

Really? Have you increased your bench 150lbs via technique? I haven't. You think he could lift 150lbs more and lose muscle tissue? From the pictures, do you think he lost muscle tissue? I don't think he did from the pictures

Elizabeth_C34

I just said a 150lb increase is too much to be accounted for just via technique. I'd also have to say, it would take more than a "little bit" of muscle mass gain to achieve this. Obviously a combo of both as he's not "massively" bigger than before.

This is really a poor way to state your point.

Firstly, 150 lb increases can be accomplished with improvements in technique. Furthermore, we have no idea HOW he measured those lifting gains.

Secondly, strength gain improvements do not mean muscle tissue gains. Again, I lost 6 lbs of muscle and my leg press has gone from 90 lb max (full range of motion) to 225 lb max (full range of motion). My max curl went from 15 lbs to 20 lbs. My dumbell bench max went from 15 lb (each arm) to 25 lb (each arm). All of this while LOSING muscle tissue.

Really? Have you increased your bench 150lbs via technique? I haven't. You think he could lift 150lbs more and lose muscle tissue? From the pictures, do you think he lost muscle tissue? I don't think he did from the pictures

Depends on how bad the technique was to begin with, but it's not something I would say is unreasonable. I've seen guys add 150 lbs to their max squats by improving their technique alone. It's not unheard of.

Secondly, without having a body scan done before and after, he has NO idea if he actually gained mass period. That was a point brought up multiple times in the past that is still being ignored by you, the OP, and the others who agree with him.