You Can Gain Muscle On A Calorie Deficit!!
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Your right, it wasnt until 145lbs, had spotters and guys helping me out that I started busting my butt and no longer scared of the bar crushing my throat etc. if I made the mistake of thinking I had another rep in me and was wrong. The 150 + lb. gain in my bench was from 145 lbs, not 135.I'd say it's pretty hard to improve your bench press 150lbs (285lbs from 135lbs) just by technique
I'd argue that 135 wasn't necessarily a tremendously heavy working weight for him whereas his top end of 300 now probably is. Lots of people start out at a set of plates just because.0 -
OP,
There are 4 ways to gain new muscle tissue.
1. Eating a calorie surplus.
2. Being obese where you can use some of your fat stores as CALORIES to build SOME new tissue but VERY minimal gains.
3. Newbie lifting gains, but again this is very minimal gains.
4. Steroids
You probably turned a little of your fat stores instead some muscle tissue, but alot of what you are seeing in your pics is muscle that you already had.
You cannot gain new muscle tissue beyond that. I can guarantee you that you won't make NEW gains unless you eat a calorie surplus. Your body does not create NEW TISSUE without providing energy above what you burn. It's biologically impossible, unless of course you have found a way to be supernatural?
ring the damn bell0 -
First I agree 100% If you dont lift while cutting about 22% of your weight loss will be from LM. I also wouldnt stop lifing, Just saying that as an example. And yes, I agree with you and anybody else that says you will see alot better gains eating at a surplus than at maint. or a deficit. I see it everyday at the gym with guys that didnt need to cut 83 lbs like I did.Less efficient? According to many here I didnt gain any LM. busting my butt in the gym over the past 13 months, just gained all of it from being lazy, getting fat and exposed it as I lost the fat. My goal is to bulk and cut until I reach 220 lbs. and that is probably gonna take a couple years. Wouldnt it be more efficient ( since It is alot easier for me to gain and cut fat then it is build lean muscle) to continue to lift, eat all the food, drink all the beer I want and just cut once? I mean if I can gain as much LM. from just being lazy and getting fat as some people claimed I have, Imagine how much muscle I can gain from lifting at the same time as gaining fat. (not saying that niner and the others are correct, just asking?)
That's being pretty extreme, and is not the main point that a lot of us were trying to make. Having a smart lifting routine when cutting helps you to maintain lean muscle mass on a deficit. That's extremely important as your body tends to cannibalize muscle mass when you're cutting and you end up with the skinny fat physique. Additionally, the problem with the 'gain a ton and cut once' plan is that there's only so much muscle you can gain on a bulk (and only so much you can retain on a cut). If you bulk up to 400 lbs, sure you'll have a lot of muscle, but you'll have also taken on a lot of fat too. When you cut you'll likely still be at a pretty high BF%. Doing smaller bulks and cuts will have you gaining more muscle during your bulk and losing less muscle on the cut. Ultimately the cycles will have you at a much lower BF% with more muscle mass than you would have otherwise.
I can't repeat enough, just because you may not directly increase muscle mass on a cut (or only increase it marginally) the value of strength training for muscle retention cannot be overstated. Keeping muscle mass on a cut is tremendously important. I recognize that 'staying the same' on a cut really feels like you're getting screwed since you've worked so hard. Perhaps if you looked at it this way: "If all I had done was eat at a deficit, I would have still reached 204 lbs, but I wouldn't look anywhere near as good as I do now. Since my body would have naturally pillaged a LOT more muscle mass than it did on my cut, I've essentially 'gained muscle' by not losing any on a deficit"
Again I reference the 4 points I made previously. It's possible (I'd go so far as to say probable) that you gained some muscle mass as a result of newbie/obese gains (not a lot, but some). You've already agreed with me that you would've gained much more muscle if you were eating at a surplus. You are obviously proud of the way you look now (and it is impressive) and you're seeing solid strength gains as well. Why does it matter if the weight of your muscles increased by the large amount you feel it did rather than the much more moderate amount that is, frankly, more likely?0 -
If you want to see progress pictures and advice from me, an 18-year old who went from skinny to BIG, look at my blog; freemusclebuilding.com0
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I'd say it's pretty hard to improve your bench press 150lbs (285lbs from 135lbs) just by technique
I don't know. After my tendon tear was repaired my max was only 185 and I'm back up to 265 and I've been on a deficit for the entire period. But I've definitely worked on my form and support exercises.0 -
I have been working out with a trainer. I have lost 13kgs (28Ibs). I do a lot of weight training, as well as cardio. I have been this weight many times before, but never ever this small at this weight. I think that the weight training is very important. I don't have the "hang" under my arms. I believe that I am building a great body underneath this fat, and when I finally get it off, I will not have to deal with the flab.0
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Great job!! Keep it up!I have been working out with a trainer. I have lost 13kgs (28Ibs). I do a lot of weight training, as well as cardio. I have been this weight many times before, but never ever this small at this weight. I think that the weight training is very important. I don't have the "hang" under my arms. I believe that I am building a great body underneath this fat, and when I finally get it off, I will not have to deal with the flab.0 -
JNIck, just for the record, im not saying 150 lbs. is possible or isnt possible. Just curious??I'd say it's pretty hard to improve your bench press 150lbs (285lbs from 135lbs) just by technique
I don't know. After my tendon tear was repaired my max was only 185 and I'm back up to 265 and I've been on a deficit for the entire period. But I've definitely worked on my form and support exercises.0 -
dudett, your wrong, please look at the pics I just posted 2 posts above.Huge difference between maintaining muscle mass and gaining muscle mass.. dude, you're wrong. For the vast majority of people, muscle mass gains will not occur without a calorie surplus and a lot of very hard work.
That proves nothing. 95% of that was probably there the whole time, it's amazing what lies underneath all that fat. Show up medical MRI's or documentation showing this "massive" increase in muscle mass at a calorie deficit, otherwise you're just basing your assumption off some pictures of someone who lost a lot of fat weight0 -
Dude you can believe me or not believe me, its no loss to me. And why would I just happen to have medical MRI's or documentation?? And then you want to accuse me of using pics of """someone""" meaning not myself. If you cant see the difference between pics #1 and #2 or #1 and #3 ( I weighed 24 more lbs. in pic #3 than in pic #1., yet my waist was smaller than in pic.#1) your blind!! By the way here is another pic of me(with my face in it).
dudett, your wrong, please look at the pics I just posted 2 posts above.Huge difference between maintaining muscle mass and gaining muscle mass.. dude, you're wrong. For the vast majority of people, muscle mass gains will not occur without a calorie surplus and a lot of very hard work.
That proves nothing. 95% of that was probably there the whole time, it's amazing what lies underneath all that fat. Show up medical MRI's or documentation showing this "massive" increase in muscle mass at a calorie deficit, otherwise you're just basing your assumption off some pictures of someone who lost a lot of fat weight
Ok lets see.
Ist. some tried to say that I gained muscle at the same time that I gained fat and not working out. LMAO what a joke!!! Yeh maybe 1 -3 lbs. of LM. for every 50 lbs of fat!! (laughing sooo hard im gasping for air!!)
2nd. I get accused of being on steriods. Sorry Idiot!! Go back under the bridge!! Wrong again!!
3rd. It was then mentioned that I might have actually been eating at a surplus and gained muscle but still lost 83 lbs. Not possible!! ( though I did seriously consider this)
4th. (and this one might be the best one yet!!) The pics are not actually me!! And ""someone"" else.
Man you guys are getting desperate!!!
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You build lean mass in addition to fat when you gain weight. Genetics, the nutrient comp of your diet, and the workout routine you do while bulking dictate the ratio of lean mass to fat. You claimed you were lazy and didn't eat well, so there probably was a heavier skew towards fat than there otherwise would have been. However, you also list a 1:25 LBM to fat ratio with no real backing for those numbers. Since you didn't take these measurements ahead of time it's impossible to say for sure how much of what you gained was LBM and how much was fat (you have mentioned anecdotal evidence; while it's understandable that you wouldn't prep for this as if it were a science experiment, it also means that the evidence you're citing can't really be used). I would argue that you gained more muscle mass than you are giving yourself credit for when you gained all that weight. It does take a lot to carry a person around, particularly when they're overweight.Ist. some tried to say that I gained muscle at the same time that I gained fat and not working out. LMAO what a joke!!! Yeh maybe 1 -3 lbs. of LM. for every 50 lbs of fat!! (laughing sooo hard im gasping for air!!)
The claim was actually that to grow the amount of lean mass you were claiming on a defecit, you'd have to be taking steroids. That is more a claim that you didn't grow as much muscle mass as you thought than it is a claim that you were juicing. That being said, my understanding of anabolics is that it hastens muscle recovery, but that to build mass you'd still need the calorie surplus.2nd. I get accused of being on steriods. Sorry Idiot!! Go back under the bridge!! Wrong again!!
What was actually being said was that in order to gain the amount of muscle mass you thought you did, you would have to have been eating at a surplus. That doesn't necessarily meaned that you gained that much muscle mass, just that if you were to, it would have to have been while at a surplus. I'm not going to use specific numbers because, frankly, I don't know what they are. I will say, however, that I am confident you gained a lot less muscle mass than you think you did while you were cutting weight.3rd. It was then mentioned that I might have actually been eating at a surplus and gained muscle but still lost 83 lbs. Not possible!! ( though I did seriously consider this)
I sincerely doubt he was claiming you used a body double for your pictures. The argument had more to do with the fact that pictures aren't an exact science. It's impossible to say, just by looking at your before and after pictures, exactly how much of your improved physique is the result of fat loss and how much is the result of lean mass gains. Progress pictures are, unfortunately, anecdotal at best.4th. (and this one might be the best one yet!!) The pics are not actually me!! And ""someone"" else.
Man you guys are getting desperate!!!
Again, as I've mentioned previously:
1) I don't think you gained as much muscle mass as you think while you were losing weight. I have no doubt that you gained some (ie newbie gains and gains while very overweight) but I sincerely think it was a lot less than you may believe. That does NOT mean you haven't been making progress (far from it) and you are obviously much stronger now than you were then. Strength gains don't necessarily translate to muscle mass gains. If they did power lifting comps wouldn't have weight classes.
2) I think you gained more lean mass while you were gaining weight than you think. As in (1), muscle mass increases don't directly translate to strength increases. Also if you had bulked with the intention of building muscle you would have gained a lot more muscle and a lot less fat during that time.
I don't think anyone is honestly saying that you're actively trying to 'lie' or 'cheat' or whatever. I think a LOT of it has to do with the belief that you are mistaken in your assessments of muscle loss/gain. At the end of the day it doesn't matter. You are happy with your progress thus far, you are going to start on a bulk cycle anyway to continue progressing. If you think you gained 25 lbs of muscle (I'm just throwing out numbers to make a point) and we think you gained 5 lbs of muscle and that the 20 lb discrepancy is due to the relative difference in size after losing all of that fat, what does it matter which one it is?
If you were to go back in time and get everything done to the caliber of a formal scientific study, I am confident you would be really surprised with the results. That would be a pain in the *kitten* though (on top of the going back in time bit being impossible), and I don't expect you to do something like that anymore than I would do it myself.0 -
150lbs gain on the bench seems too high for how little gains you want to attibute to muscle mass gain0
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The entire point of my thread was that even though you are eating at a deficit, It is still beneficial to implement a lifting program regardless of the LM. muscle gains are newbie gains or not. I understand about pwer lifters competing in weight classes, football players, MMA fighters, boxers etc. train the same way.
Again, as I've mentioned previously:
1) I don't think you gained as much muscle mass as you think while you were losing weight. I have no doubt that you gained some (ie newbie gains and gains while very overweight) but I sincerely think it was a lot less than you may believe. That does NOT mean you haven't been making progress (far from it) and you are obviously much stronger now than you were then. Strength gains don't necessarily translate to muscle mass gains. If they did power lifting comps wouldn't have weight classes.
Like I said there is no doubt if I had bulked I would have gained alot more LM.2) I think you gained more lean mass while you were gaining weight than you think. As in (1), muscle mass increases don't directly translate to strength increases. Also if you had bulked with the intention of building muscle you would have gained a lot more muscle and a lot less fat during that time.
Just for the record im not saying I gained 25 lbs of muscle while on a defict. But I didnt gain 20lbs of muscle from getting fat either. Before I got fat I ate the exact same way as I did when I got fat. I just played a ton of basketball, hockey and baseball.I don't think anyone is honestly saying that you're actively trying to 'lie' or 'cheat' or whatever. I think a LOT of it has to do with the belief that you are mistaken in your assessments of muscle loss/gain. At the end of the day it doesn't matter. You are happy with your progress thus far, you are going to start on a bulk cycle anyway to continue progressing. If you think you gained 25 lbs of muscle (I'm just throwing out numbers to make a point) and we think you gained 5 lbs of muscle and that the 20 lb discrepancy is due to the relative difference in size after losing all of that fat, what does it matter which one it is?
Wouldnt I have also gained LM. while eating at a huge surplus playing those sports (but didnt) as I did when I stopped and got fat? My diet never changed, just my activity level, When I stopped being active, I started getting fat. infact, in my before pic. I had already started gaining fat. If I gained as much muscle from getting fat as you claim, How comes in the pic. below from Oct-2011, my clothes look way to big and just hanging off me everywhere except for my shoulders and lats where my shirt is very tight? When I go to my house in FL. I was so acustomed to just grabbing my back and heading to the airport that I kept forgeting to pack new clothes so I kept wearing the same clothes that I had in FL.
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I had mentioned in one of my first posts on this thread that my concern was that the tone you take can be misleading for people. Newbie gains and gains from being overweight when you start lifting are very marginal. My concern from the beginning was that a statement like 'You can gain muscle on a calorie deficit' tends to perpetuate bad habits in folks trying to get in shape. In your first post you implored folks NOT to neglect lifting weights when dropping weight because of a message that you believed would cause people to do that. I feel similarly that not level setting expectations regarding muscle gain while cutting can cause similar issues. It is a fundamental disagreement regarding which message is 'better' that I doubt we'll agree upon. I just hope you can understand why a lot of the folks on this thread are saying the things they are saying. I don't think they are a direct attack on you, but rather an attempt to clarify the message to one they (as I do) feel is more beneficial/accurate. At the end of the day, it's not the workout and diet plan you have undertaken that is at odds, it's the goals behind that program.The entire point of my thread was that even though you are eating at a deficit, It is still beneficial to implement a lifting program regardless of the LM. muscle gains are newbie gains or not. I understand about pwer lifters competing in weight classes, football players, MMA fighters, boxers etc. train the same way.
Again, the use of the number 25 was simply to explain my point. The reality is I think you gained 'more' muscle than you give yourself credit for when you gained all that weight and that you gained 'less' muscle than you think you did when you cut all that weight. Jog a mile, now throw on an 80 lb ruck sack and jog a mile. Even if you weren't being active, the extra weight REALLY does make a difference, your body has to account for that, and with a calorie surplus it has the tools to do so.Just for the record im not saying I gained 25 lbs of muscle while on a defict. But I didnt gain 20lbs of muscle from getting fat either. Before I got fat I ate the exact same way as I did when I got fat. I just played a ton of basketball, hockey and baseball.
I would have also gained LM. while eating at a huge surplus playing those sports (but didnt) as I did when I stopped and got fat. My diet never changed, just my activity level, When I stopped being active, I started getting fat. infact, in my before pic. I had already started gaining fat. If I gained as much muscle from getting fat as you claim, How comes in the pic. below from Oct-2011, my clothes look way to big and just hanging off me everywhere except for my shoulders and lats where my shirt is very tight? When I go to my house in FL. I was so acustomed to just grabbing my back and heading to the airport that I kept forgeting to pack new clothes so I kept wearing the same clothes that I had in FL.
Also as I had mentioned, your story is anecdotal evidence (this isn't an attack on you, I'm just trying to explain why I don't think I can accept what you're saying as proof and make sure I highlight that it's not because I think you're lying). In order to be taken seriously, it would have to be strictly measured (something's that's basically impossible in normal life). You say your diet didn't change, how can you state that with confidence? Did you eat the EXACT same things every day? You gained that weight over years, even a slight variation can make a substantial impact in that time. The lack of precision will muddle the waters and make it more and more difficult to derive meaningful information.
Same goes with pictures (I'm on a secure network at work so I can't see the image you linked unfortunately). You are making fantastic progress, and you're doing the things that have worked for you, but without an actual case study there are too many unknown variables at play. Again it doesn't lessen your progress or mean you somehow didn't work your butt off for the results you're seeing, it just means that the results are in slightly different areas than you may think. I think your progress has more to do with lowering your BF% than with muscle gain, and that maintaining (and increasing very slightly) your muscle mass is why your physique is where it's at.0 -
If you can't see the pics, then it's hard to really comment right?0
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Ok!! Just found another pic. from June. The last one I post I promise!:bigsmile: But you got to be able to see the difference in my shoulders from this pic in June and the pic from Oct.
Also I would love to see pics of any guy that has lost 125,150, 175 lbs because they would look like a greek god from gaining so much muscle from getting fat and then loosing the fat and exposing all that new muscle. And there has to be plenty of guys that lost that much weight on this site. You would also be shocked to find out how picky of an eater I am. ( always have been) I pretty much ate the same things on a daily basis when I was eating bad. 3 cheeseburgers, large fry and large Chocolate shake every time I went to McDonalds, pizza, stromboli, cheese steaks, fried chicken and spagetti, and lots of Bud Lite beer. The same is true since I started eating healthy ( I have even mentioned that in this thread) it was very hard finding healthy foods that I liked, but once I found a few, I have eaten the exact same foods each and every day over the past 13 months. I have just lowered the amount as I lost weight.
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JNIck, just for the record, im not saying 150 lbs. is possible or isnt possible. Just curious??I'd say it's pretty hard to improve your bench press 150lbs (285lbs from 135lbs) just by technique
I don't know. After my tendon tear was repaired my max was only 185 and I'm back up to 265 and I've been on a deficit for the entire period. But I've definitely worked on my form and support exercises.
If you have solid programming for your upper body, your form is pretty good, and even at a calorie deficit your diet plan is "dialed-in", sure it's possible. I know what I've accomplished in a short time and on a calorie deficit and I've seen some other strong dudes at the gym that I know aren't on no bulk lift some serious weight. There's one guy that is like 5'8" maybe 140 - 150lbs that looks like he never eats DL 405.
edit: Plus it's obvious you eat a lot of fish so you're getting good protein and EFA's.0 -
JNick thanks for the reply. And yes I eat alot of fish, mostly tuna steak but I also eat alot venison and chicken.
JNIck, just for the record, im not saying 150 lbs. is possible or isnt possible. Just curious??I'd say it's pretty hard to improve your bench press 150lbs (285lbs from 135lbs) just by technique
I don't know. After my tendon tear was repaired my max was only 185 and I'm back up to 265 and I've been on a deficit for the entire period. But I've definitely worked on my form and support exercises.
If you have solid programming for your upper body, your form is pretty good, and even at a calorie deficit your diet plan is "dialed-in", sure it's possible. I know what I've accomplished in a short time and on a calorie deficit and I've seen some other strong dudes at the gym that I know aren't on no bulk lift some serious weight. There's one guy that is like 5'8" maybe 140 - 150lbs that looks like he never eats DL 405.
edit: Plus it's obvious you eat a lot of fish so you're getting good protein and EFA's.0 -
On the very last picture yes, but I have been reading this thread for a while and have seen the other pictures posted. Given that I'm home now, I stand by my previous statement on a picture being anecdotal evidence.If you can't see the pics, then it's hard to really comment right?
When losing weight you can lose lean mass as well. The goal is to retain as much as possible. Keeping the muscle you already have on a cut is the ideal scenario, and we don't hit the ideal every time.Ok!! Just found another pic. from June. The last one I post I promise! But you got to be able to see the difference in my shoulders from this pic in June and the pic from Oct.
Also I would love to see pics of any guy that has lost 125,150, 175 lbs because they would look like a greek god from gaining so much muscle from getting fat and then loosing the fat and exposing all that new muscle. And there has to be plenty of guys that lost that much weight on this site. You would also be shocked to find out how picky of an eater I am. ( always have been) I pretty much ate the same things on a daily basis when I was eating bad. 3 cheeseburgers, large fry and large Chocolate shake every time I went to McDonalds, pizza, stromboli, cheese steaks, fried chicken and spagetti, and lots of Bud Lite beer. The same is true since I started eating healthy ( I have even mentioned that in this thread) it was very hard finding healthy foods that I liked, but once I found a few, I have eaten the exact same foods each and every day over the past 13 months. I have just lowered the amount as I lost weight.
As for the most recent picture you posted, you do look smaller but again, it's hard to determine strictly from pictures if your muscles have grown, and if so then by how much.
Even if you don't eat a wide variety of foods, it's very difficult to keep calories and nutrients constant for an extended period of time unless you're trying very hard to do so (and even then it's still very hard, you do know that the calorie counts for McDonald's are just an estimate right?)0 -
Here's the problem with candid pictures, different distances, different angles, different body positions, can make for radically different looks. Unless you have before and after pics taken from the exact same angles from the exact same distance, with the exact same body positions, you really can't compare them objectively.0
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There's no reason to believe you can't build muscle on a calorie deficit. Microtears still occur within the muscle tissue, and those tears must still be repaired. You've got all the fundamentals of building muscle mass.
With that said, it will go a LOT more slowly than if you were on a surplus. You will still have a net weight loss of course, since we're still bound by thermodynamics. I would suspect to see a slight muscle gain with a higher-than-normal fat burn, so you would have to work out substantially beyond standard cardio to make up the differences.0 -
tigersword & rtalencar85, I understand what you guys are saying about different, lighting, poses, angles camera's etc. can make a person look larger etc. But show me just one pic. out of the dozen or so pics I have posted that was taken in an earlier month that the camera, lighting, pose. angle etc. made me look larger than any pic. that was taken at a later date. Just one!!
2nd. Even if I got MRI.'s done it would not be considered proof here by people who doubt me. Why? Because I also posted that my measurements over the past 13 months have always stayed the same or increased. So my word isnt good enough and if my word isnt good enough about measurements than it wouldnt be good enough for MRI. results either. ( If my intent was to mislead people I could have easily made up MRI results and posted them) because they would just doubt the results just like they did the pics and the measurements. So basicly I have done all I could do. Thanks be polite and civil even though we disagree on this subject.
But I really would like to see some proof if anyone has some case studies etc. about how much LM. can be gained by gaining fat.
The knowledgeable people I have talked too said it is possible but not to the extent that people have stated here,0 -
What about the 150lbs bench press improvement? He started at 135lbs. I wish I coulld improve that much w/o gaining any mass.
I think he provided as much info as reasonably obtainable. And it gets dismissed becuase it's not a quadrouple blind, havard funded test.0 -
sorry but i disagree.. unless you have scientific evidence proving this.. i could find about 999999999 bodybuidlers that disagree
strength gains is due to neural adaptation'
the appearance of gaining muscle is because of lower bf.
there are some ways to gain muscle on a cut...
such as if your new.. but for a experience lifter.. sorry its not going to happen.0 -
What this thread needs is more pictures of guys without their shirts on
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I wish I could adapt to increase my bench by 150lbs. Tips?0
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Yep, never mentioned experienced lifters!! Just newbies and experienced lifters that have taken long periods of time off.sorry but i disagree.. unless you have scientific evidence proving this.. i could find about 999999999 bodybuidlers that disagree
strength gains is due to neural adaptation'
the appearance of gaining muscle is because of lower bf.
there are some ways to gain muscle on a cut...
such as if your new.. but for a experience lifter.. sorry its not going to happen.0 -
Hey I posted all I could!!:bigsmile: and some of them were down right embarrassing to post.What this thread needs is more pictures of guys without their shirts on0 -
Some would even discredit that!!What about the 150lbs bench press improvement? He started at 135lbs. I wish I coulld improve that much w/o gaining any mass.
I think he provided as much info as reasonably obtainable. And it gets dismissed becuase it's not a quadrouple blind, havard funded test.0 -
I agree 100%There's no reason to believe you can't build muscle on a calorie deficit. Microtears still occur within the muscle tissue, and those tears must still be repaired. You've got all the fundamentals of building muscle mass.
With that said, it will go a LOT more slowly than if you were on a surplus. You will still have a net weight loss of course, since we're still bound by thermodynamics. I would suspect to see a slight muscle gain with a higher-than-normal fat burn, so you would have to work out substantially beyond standard cardio to make up the differences.0
This discussion has been closed.
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