You Can Gain Muscle On A Calorie Deficit!!
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Anecdotal evidence for some is "real evidence".This seems to be a totally lost concept on these boards, the burden of proof falls on the original claim maker. Yet people get all pissy when asked to substantiate their claim with something more then anecdotal evidence
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Most people don't do actual research and take the word of people they seem to trust. I don't. If I did, I'd still be making the claim you are about gaining significant muscle on calorie deficit.Hey I posted evidence, Most people would accept an article from Lance Armstrongs website,
If they are "easy to find" then you should have no issue posting a copy of the link and abstract.I then posted some studies ( its not like they are easy to find)
Articles aren't evidence. Kevin Trudeau wrote a best seller on "Natural Cures". He's claimed to be an expert. Would you believe that cancer can be cured by changing the cells to alkaline in the body. How many medical journals of study do you think agree with it?What is more than abundant though is 100's of articles written by experts more qualified than Ninerbuff.
Strawman argument. I debate issues that don't provide correct information. Bad information shouldn't be passed on.The fact of the matter is nothing I do is good enough for niner, he comes here to argue, just look at the Tim Tebow thread.http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/372688-tim-tebow
Actually most quit when they have no evidence to refute.He will keep going and going until they just give up.
Burden of proof is used in debating. That's what we're doing here on the subject at hand. You made the original claim. I refuted your claim. It's now on you to actually show proof to your claim. So far all you've shown is pictures and posted articles with NO LINK or ABSTRACT to study. So in essence, we still have nothing to look at.Also could you show me were I can find the guidelines of this board?? I didnt see were it said the burden of proof falls on the original claim. And in my opinion, there is nothing wrong with niner asking for proof, but he should also return the favor when the same is asked of him
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So essentially the people who are probably already close to where they want to be need an excess. The people who have already put in the effort and work and changed their habits... cant gain significant muscle on a deficit. The ones that are already well knowledged or being coached and paying someone to do it for them. Well. Duh. For the rest of us above 10% bfat its probably doable and being done already. Just slowly. Great information. We can store months of energy. Wouldnt exactly call the 26 lbs of fat im lugging around as "nothing."
Btw who did you NOT list in exceptions? Lol.0 -
Where's the links and abstract? Again all this is "claimed" but if it was an actual study, there would be an abstract. Please post the abstract or a link to it at the very least. If you can't, then this is just another article of opinion.Niner basicly said the same thing so here is my response. (maybe you can answer my quetion?)
The people in the study ate 2,000 per day lost weight and gained muscle which you have claimed was impossible, If your saying that you can lose weight while not at a deficit then maybe I am wrong and was eating at a surplus but still lost weight 83 lbs over the past year. ( I didnt think it was possible to lose weight while at a surplus???)
Also I guess you didnt see the study on the 2 sets of women so here it is again.
''''''''''''''''''The Most Interesting Finding
But perhaps most interesting is a study of fourteen women who were on a significantly small, 800 calorie, high protein diet. Seven of the women lifted weights for 30-40 minutes three days a week, and the other seven women dieted but did not weigh train. Both groups of women lost 33 pounds, but the group that weight lifted actually increased their lean muscle mass by 6 percent, whereas the women that did not lift weights lost muscle along with the fat.
So now we’ve learned that if you want to lose fat and build muscle at the same time, you can even do it when you’re dieting, but you have to lift weights!"""""""""""""
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So you were in the obese/very overweight exception of people who gained on calorie deficit.I gained plenty of muscle while dropping 150lbs over 8 months. I lift significantly more weight now.
I did this on a 1200-1500 cal 150-250 protein diet for a majority of the time. I did do refeeds to keep metabolism regulated and normalized. In actuallity with the cardio I was eating 500-700 NET cals most days.
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Here's a link to a CLINICAL STUDY to show that lean body weight can be maintained while in calorie deficit, but that no significant lean muscle was built. Yes there was exercise involved.I also found another article that used a study done by UConn. (storr) as a reference but I couldnt find the actual study.
http://www.ajcn.org/content/47/1/19.short
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The exact groups of people that I Iintended this thread for!! And remember in my study, the subjects only resistance trained for 15 minutes per day. I doubt I would have gained any muscle If I only lifted for 15 minutes per day.
Lol, we've already gone over this. It's not disputed, however like your "study" (with no abstract) the percentage of muscle gained is small in the exceptions of the types of people we discussed (obese/overweight, athlete, newbie). Second law of thermodynamics + entropy covers this.
Niner if what you are claiming is true it would also be impossible for a person, regardless of being a newbie, just getting back into lifting or even over weight to gain any muscle at all while on a defict. regardless of how smail the gain.
No, if there is a difference of opinion then there's a difference of opinion. Your stance isn't opinion, you're saying it's doable and factual and disregards what other clinical studies have shown not to be true.Ok so your sayin that anyone that has a difference of opinion than you has the burden of proof but you shouldnt have to provide any proof to support your opinion? How about studies that prove me wrong?
As to the studies that prove you wrong, let's start with the basics: Laws of Thermodynamics
The First Law basically says that energy or matter can neither be created nor destroyed. In terms of the machine, this meant that the total energy output (work by the machine) is equal to the heat supplied. In other words, the change in the internal energy of a closed system is equal to the heat added to the system minus the work done by the system. Because the system operates in the real world, some energy always escapes into the outside world, thus leading to both inefficiency and the Second Law, which was generated to cover the so-called flaw in the First Law.
The Second Law essentially says that it is impossible to obtain a process where the unique effect is the subtraction of a positive heat from a reservoir and the production of a positive work. Energy exhibits entropy. It moves away form its source. In this sense, energy or heat cannot flow form a colder body to a hotter body. You cannot keep a continual flow of heat to work to heat to work without adding energy to the system. In machine terms, you have to add energy to get more work, and the ratio of heat to work will never equal 100% due to energy expanding away from its source.
The Third Law explains this further. It says that all processes cease as temperature approaches absolute zero. This is the temperature at which molecules cease movement, cease producing kinetic energy. In other words, there is no energy.
You cannot create something from nothing.
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Waiting for the studies that support your opinion.
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You either are spinning your butt off or playing dumb!! My Dr. who is a board certified physician and has worked out his entire life, was the person responsible for getting me to start working out, because of being on HB. and Col. meds I had blood and urine work done every 3 months, ( my goal was to get off the meds and stay off) so as I exercised, dropped the weight and ate healthy he reduced my meds and finally took me off them, The enitre time I kept bugging him to test my T- levels aswell because all I kept seeing on TV. was when men hit my age their T-levels keep dropping etc. etc.. He finally gave in, but not after telling me time after time, that my T-levels were fine because if they were not where they should be for a white male my age, there is no way I could put on the amount of muscle I had. ( turns out he was right and I was worried about nothing) and it wasnt like he was shocked that I gained muscle while on a deficit.
You stated to put on 1 inch on your arms requires a 10lbs muscle gain. That's pretty significant because even Pro and amateur bodybuilders, who are enhanced, would love for that to happen, yet you stated you were able to do it without bulking up and also while on calorie deficit.Second, I never said a half inch or an inch were huge gains.
Just needed to remind you in case you did forget that you did post it.To gain one inch in arm size you need to gain atleast 10 lbs of lean muscle. And since I started working out even though I got rid of most of the fat in my arms I still gained over 1.5 inches in both of my arms.
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second, (and you know this) A newbie on a surplus can gain 25-30lbs of muscle during their first year, where as a seasoned body builder is lucky to put on 10lbs of new muscle. (but keep playing dumb or better yet call Sally Struthers and ask her for your money back for the certification courses you took)
Now I shouldnt even mention this, (since your so amazed by my arms getting bigger) but when I started working out, (+ 83 lbs) I could wrap my hand around either one of my forearms a couple inches above my wrist and touch my thumb and middle finger together, now there is about an inch of space in between my thumb and middle finger. (-83 lbs)0 -
Congrads!! Its funny how the longer this thread goes that the more people post about their own success about gaining muscle and losing fat at the same time!!!I gained plenty of muscle while dropping 150lbs over 8 months. I lift significantly more weight now.
I did this on a 1200-1500 cal 150-250 protein diet for a majority of the time. I did do refeeds to keep metabolism regulated and normalized. In actuallity with the cardio I was eating 500-700 NET cals most days.
Does gain a lot slower during deficit. Seems effortless atm eating 4k+ a day to build/recover. Takes several days to recover and weeks to build on the deficit compared to days on refeed/bulk.
Dunno what else to say. Results may vary? Heh. Believe me when I say this- I have motivated quite a few people I know to hopon and theyre doing great as well. People i work with or meet while working ask about how I did it so fast and seemed so full of energy and in good spirits while depriving myself of carbs. On a budget- no less! ( i spend less than 200 a month on food and supplements. ) im a courier so its a physically demanding job.
My fathers 60 and diabetic and lost 45lbs the last few months half assing it. /shrug0 -
Lean muscle was built!! And please inform me of what each of the subjects weight was at the start of of the study,what was their calorie deficit during the study, how many grams of protein per day did each subject consume and also what was their wrokout program/ split? Not trying to be like you, but atleast in my study, they provided the amount of calories each subject consumed every day and that they only did resistance exercise for 15 minutes per day.
Here's a link to a CLINICAL STUDY to show that lean body weight can be maintained while in calorie deficit, but that no significant lean muscle was built. Yes there was exercise involved.I also found another article that used a study done by UConn. (storr) as a reference but I couldnt find the actual study.
http://www.ajcn.org/content/47/1/19.short
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And so was I but I never ate below 2,400 calories or ATLEAST 225 grams of protein per day and thats once I dropped to 213lbs, 9lbs ago,
So you were in the obese/very overweight exception of people who gained on calorie deficit.I gained plenty of muscle while dropping 150lbs over 8 months. I lift significantly more weight now.
I did this on a 1200-1500 cal 150-250 protein diet for a majority of the time. I did do refeeds to keep metabolism regulated and normalized. In actuallity with the cardio I was eating 500-700 NET cals most days.
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Again, your "study" isn't verified. No link, no abstract. Till you come up with the actual study, it's anecdotal.The exact groups of people that I Iintended this thread for!! And remember in my study, the subjects only resistance trained for 15 minutes per day. I doubt I would have gained any muscle If I only lifted for 15 minutes per day.
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Lean muscle was built!! And please inform me of what each of the subjects weight was at the start of of the study,what was their calorie deficit during the study, how many grams of protein per day did each subject consume and also what was their wrokout program/ split? Not trying to be like you, but atleast in my study, they provided the amount of calories each subject consumed every day and that they only did resistance exercise for 15 minutes per day.
Here's a link to a CLINICAL STUDY to show that lean body weight can be maintained while in calorie deficit, but that no significant lean muscle was built. Yes there was exercise involved.I also found another article that used a study done by UConn. (storr) as a reference but I couldnt find the actual study.
http://www.ajcn.org/content/47/1/19.short
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It never said muscle was built. You do realize that lean body weight and muscle aren't the same thing? Muscle is part of lbw, but lbw also includes water, organs, bones, tendons, ligaments, in other words, everything that isn't fat is lbw. A one pound gain in lbw does not I dictate muscle being built, odds are it indicates water and glycogen storage.
And you didn't post a "study." you posted an article written about a study. Without a Link to the actual study itself, there's no way to determine whether the article is correct or just making it up.0 -
Lol, reading comprehension may not be your best quality.Lean muscle was built!! And please inform me of what each of the subjects weight was at the start of of the study,what was their calorie deficit during the study, how many grams of protein per day did each subject consume and also what was their wrokout program/ split? Not trying to be like you, but atleast in my study, they provided the amount of calories each subject consumed every day and that they only did resistance exercise for 15 minutes per day.
Lean body weight (LBW) increased for EO (1.07 kg) compared with DO (-0.91 kg) and C (-0.31 kg) and for DPE (0.43 kg) compared with DO.
EO was the group that weight trained without dieting. DO was diet without exercise. DPE was diet with exercise. As you can see, the non dieting group put on the most LBW while the even the weight trained group with diet put on a paltry .43kg or .9lb in 8 weeks. And these were OBESE people, not your 10lb-50lb overweight individuals.
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This is a nice story, but it doesn't VERIFY anything you've stated.You either are spinning your butt off or playing dumb!! My Dr. who is a board certified physician and has worked out his entire life, was the person responsible for getting me to start working out, because of being on HB. and Col. meds I had blood and urine work done every 3 months, ( my goal was to get off the meds and stay off) so as I exercised, dropped the weight and ate healthy he reduced my meds and finally took me off them, The enitre time I kept bugging him to test my T- levels aswell because all I kept seeing on TV. was when men hit my age their T-levels keep dropping etc. etc.. He finally gave in, but not after telling me time after time, that my T-levels were fine because if they were not where they should be for a white male my age, there is no way I could put on the amount of muscle I had. ( turns out he was right and I was worried about nothing) and it wasnt like he was shocked that I gained muscle while on a deficit.
No need to start getting personal and calling me "dumb". That usually happens when people whose argument starts to unravel. Of course I know that a newbie on SURPLUS can gain that weight. YOUR CLAIM is that you did it IN DEFICIT which is what your whole thread is about. Where am I being "dumb" here by re stating what you've claimed?second, (and you know this) A newbie on a surplus can gain 25-30lbs of muscle during their first year, where as a seasoned body builder is lucky to put on 10lbs of new muscle. (but keep playing dumb or better yet call Sally Struthers and ask her for your money back for the certification courses you took)
You're right, you shouldn't have mentioned it because it has nothing to do with the debate at hand.Now I shouldnt even mention this, (since your so amazed by my arms getting bigger) but when I started working out, (+ 83 lbs) I could wrap my hand around either one of my forearms a couple inches above my wrist and touch my thumb and middle finger together, now there is about an inch of space in between my thumb and middle finger. (-83 lbs)
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Wait, that would be a SURPLUS then based on your BMR. A 300lbs man at your height and age has a BMR of 2115. Even if he exercised and daily energy expenditure was 1000 calories extra, he would still have to consume 2600 to lose 1lb a week.
And so was I but I never ate below 2,400 calories or ATLEAST 225 grams of protein per day and thats once I dropped to 213lbs, 9lbs ago,
So you were in the obese/very overweight exception of people who gained on calorie deficit.I gained plenty of muscle while dropping 150lbs over 8 months. I lift significantly more weight now.
I did this on a 1200-1500 cal 150-250 protein diet for a majority of the time. I did do refeeds to keep metabolism regulated and normalized. In actuallity with the cardio I was eating 500-700 NET cals most days.
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This is getting better and better each post.:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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He'll get it after it's been stated a few more times.It never said muscle was built. You do realize that lean body weight and muscle aren't the same thing? Muscle is part of lbw, but lbw also includes water, organs, bones, tendons, ligaments, in other words, everything that isn't fat is lbw. A one pound gain in lbw does not I dictate muscle being built, odds are it indicates water and glycogen storage.
And you didn't post a "study." you posted an article written about a study. Without a Link to the actual study itself, there's no way to determine whether the article is correct or just making it up.
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:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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Again your study was no better
Again, your "study" isn't verified. No link, no abstract. Till you come up with the actual study, it's anecdotal.The exact groups of people that I Iintended this thread for!! And remember in my study, the subjects only resistance trained for 15 minutes per day. I doubt I would have gained any muscle If I only lifted for 15 minutes per day.
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Again, what was each subjects age? what did each subject weigh? what was their calorie deficit per day, how many grams of protein did each subject consume per day, And what was their program, split etc.
Lol, reading comprehension may not be your best quality.Lean muscle was built!! And please inform me of what each of the subjects weight was at the start of of the study,what was their calorie deficit during the study, how many grams of protein per day did each subject consume and also what was their wrokout program/ split? Not trying to be like you, but atleast in my study, they provided the amount of calories each subject consumed every day and that they only did resistance exercise for 15 minutes per day.
Lean body weight (LBW) increased for EO (1.07 kg) compared with DO (-0.91 kg) and C (-0.31 kg) and for DPE (0.43 kg) compared with DO.
EO was the group that weight trained without dieting. DO was diet without exercise. DPE was diet with exercise. As you can see, the non dieting group put on the most LBW while the even the weight trained group with diet put on a paltry .43kg or .9lb in 8 weeks. And these were OBESE people, not your 10lb-50lb overweight individuals.
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Or dont you think none of the things I mentioned matter?0
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