You Can Gain Muscle On A Calorie Deficit!!

Ripken818836701

Ninerbuff, Unfortunately I wasnt eating at a surplus over the last year so that couldnt be it. But I did find another pic. from August, again the 2nd. pic is from early june. And I think you can clearly see the difference in my arms in the two pics. Also please note that even in August with still a great deal of weight to lose that I had a chicken chest, most of it was just skin and bone no muscle or fat in between.

JNick77

Ninerbuff, Unfortunately I wasnt eating at a surplus over the last year so that couldnt be it. But I did find another pic. from August, again the 2nd. pic is from early june. And I think you can clearly see the difference in my arms in the two pics. Also please note that even in August with still a great deal of weight to lose that I had a chicken chest, most of it was just skin and bone no muscle or fat in between.

Your arms look leaner not bigger.

Ripken818836701

Ninerbuff, Unfortunately I wasnt eating at a surplus over the last year so that couldnt be it. But I did find another pic. from August, again the 2nd. pic is from early june. And I think you can clearly see the difference in my arms in the two pics. Also please note that even in August with still a great deal of weight to lose that I had a chicken chest, most of it was just skin and bone no muscle or fat in between.

Your arms look leaner not bigger.

Ok maybe I just need glasses:happy: Because to me my arms look larger in the first pic. compared to the second pic.

Ripken818836701

Wow- after reading this whole thread I have learned approximately nothing new

My husband has recently lost some weight and "looks" more muscular- however I know for a fact he hasn't "gained" muscle as that is impossible for a man eating 1900 calories a day! All he has done is cut the fat off what was already a fairly muscular physique so that the muscles appear more defined.

I believe that is the same case with the OP (who will probably shoot me for saying so!)

Not gonna shoot you :bigsmile: I have a few questions though if you dont mind? How much weight did your husband lose? Did your husband have the same muscular build prior to gaining the weight as he does now after losing it? Or did he gain muscle as he gained fat and is now more muscular than he was prior to gaining his weight? ( not talking about being more defined) Also I don't know what he weighed while eating 1900 calories per day but from 213lbs down to 204lbs I ate 2,400 calories per day. I lowered the amount of calories over the past 13 months as I lost weight. Thanks.

ninerbuff

Ninerbuff, Unfortunately I wasnt eating at a surplus over the last year so that couldnt be it. But I did find another pic. from August, again the 2nd. pic is from early june. And I think you can clearly see the difference in my arms in the two pics. Also please note that even in August with still a great deal of weight to lose that I had a chicken chest, most of it was just skin and bone no muscle or fat in between.

Arms look bigger in the first pic, but then again angles, light and position can make a difference. Comparisons are best made if similar poses and back grounds are used.


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Ripken818836701

Niner, here is a pic. from the same day (I forgot to reset the date and time when I changed the batteries) different camera, different location, different pose, different lighting.

ArroganceInStep

You can't build muscle out of nothing, it takes energy to grow new tissue. If you're truly eating at a deficit, that energy has to come from burning stored energy in the body (i.e. fat and muscle). That stored energy is already being used to make up the deficit though, which is why someone could potentially build much more muscle eating at a surplus than a deficit (and yes, I know the OP didn't say he gained more than he would when bulking, I'm just saying that up front).

1) You can gain minimal muscle mass on a deficit if you're very overweight, a new lifter, or a lifter coming off an extended break from working out.

2) Losing body fat can make your muscles look substantially bigger. As a result, pictures shouldn't be used as proof.

3) When you lift, things happen in your body that may change the relative size of your muscles without increasing muscle mass (water retention, glycogen storage, etc)

4) The numbers that are often relied upon heavily for these types of things are really just estimates. It's hard to derive any concrete facts when accuracy is lacking.

I don't see why it's hard to accept the concept that some combination of the above 4 points occurred.

Jeff92se

We've all read that more than a few times.

Saruman_w

Well this sure is a fun read. Time to break out the low fat popcorn.

Ripken818836701

You can't build muscle out of nothing, it takes energy to grow new tissue. If you're truly eating at a deficit, that energy has to come from burning stored energy in the body (i.e. fat and muscle). That stored energy is already being used to make up the deficit though, which is why someone could potentially build much more muscle eating at a surplus than a deficit (and yes, I know the OP didn't say he gained more than he would when bulking, I'm just saying that up front).

1) You can gain minimal muscle mass on a deficit if you're very overweight, a new lifter, or a lifter coming off an extended break from working out.

2) Losing body fat can make your muscles look substantially bigger. As a result, pictures shouldn't be used as proof.

3) When you lift, things happen in your body that may change the relative size of your muscles without increasing muscle mass (water retention, glycogen storage, etc)

4) The numbers that are often relied upon heavily for these types of things are really just estimates. It's hard to derive any concrete facts when accuracy is lacking.

I don't see why it's hard to accept the concept that some combination of the above 4 points occurred.

I pretty much agree with everything you just posted. Just a few questions? I understand that lifting can make muscles more defined thus making them appear to be larger and that water retention/ glycogen storage etc. can actually can make your muscles larger. But wouldnt your monthly measurments flucuate as your water retention and glycogen levels flucuate?
Also ,( I know you didnt mentione this but fiqured I ask your opinion, and anyone can feel to give their opinion) , I understand that strength gains are no indication of muscle gains but is there limitations to newbie strength gains from just improving form, and strengthening their existing muscle, ligaments and tendons etc? For example: over the last 13 months I have increased my bench by over 150 + lbs, my squats and using the Hammer Strength shrug maching by even more? (270 lbs to be exact for my shrugs)
Also, its been mentioned a few times that you can gain a substantial amount of lean muscle by just being lazy, eating too much and getting fat, If this is true why doesnt every body do it? And Im being serious, I went from 180 lbs with no muscle what so ever, got fat, then lost it all and now I weigh 204 lbs even though my waist is smaller then when I was at 180lbs. Basicly go from the first pic. to the 2nd and 3 pic. just from being lazy, eating bad, (and I mean bad!) then losing all the fat. (not saying you cant gain some muscle, but to gain no knew muscle in my legs and all of it in my upper body does not seem right)

Ripken818836701

Well this sure is a fun read. Time to break out the low fat popcorn.

Dude I ran out about 12 pages ago,

JNick77

I pretty much agree with everything you just posted. Just a few questions? I understand that lifting can make muscles more defined thus making them appear to be larger and that water retention/ glycogen storage etc. can actually can make your muscles larger. But wouldnt your monthly measurments flucuate as your water retention and glycogen levels flucuate?
Also ,( I know you didnt mentione this but fiqured I ask your opinion, and anyone can feel to give their opinion) , I understand that strength gains are no indication of muscle gains but is there limitations to newbie strength gains from just improving form, and strengthening their existing muscle, ligaments and tendons etc? For example: over the last 13 months I have increased my bench by over 150 + lbs, my squats and using the Hammer Strength shrug maching by even more? (270 lbs to be exact for my shrugs)
Also, its been mentioned a few times that you can gain a substantial amount of lean muscle by just being lazy, eating too much and getting fat, If this is true why doesnt every body do it? And Im being serious, I went from 180 lbs with no muscle what so ever, got fat, then lost it all and now I weight 204 lbs even though my waist is smaller then when I was at 180lbs. Basicly go from the first pic. to the 2nd and 3 pic. just from being lazy, eating bad, (and I mean bad!) then losing all the fat. (not saying you can gain some muscle)

So form is huge and improving technique can absolutely improve one's ability to lift more weight. I saw one of Date Tate's bench training classes and he said he's put as much as 50lbs on somebody in a month (think it was a month) just by improving their form. I've seen the same results with Deadlifting and Squatting.

You also will improve say bench strength by strengthening supporting muscles. For improving bench, obviously Bench Press, but also work on Triceps, Traps (shrugs), even your Rear Deltoids and Lats because they all support the bench press in one way or another.

Not sure about the last question, sounds like you had an awesome body re-comp.

Ripken818836701

Jnick, thanks for the response, I always knew strength gains are not indications of gaining new lean muscle but long before this thread I have always wondered if there were limitations to those newbie gains.

JNick77

Jnick, thanks for the response, I always knew strength gains are not indications of gaining new lean muscle but long before this thread I have always wondered if there were limitations to those newbie gains.

Yup, fixing one's form or even just improving aspects of it can be pretty huge. I for one feel that my bench press form is pretty decent but even lately I've made adjustments to improve it and my bench improves a little. Stupid things like doing more chin-ups and band pull-aparts has helped even. Lot of little things to do.

Jeff92se

Isn't 150lbs alot to be improving via technique?

JNick77

Isn't 150lbs alot to be improving via technique?

Seems like a lot but I guess it depends on where he started. If he started only hit 90 or 110lbs for a single / double and now he's benching 250+, could be I guess.

ArroganceInStep

I pretty much agree with everything you just posted. Just a few questions? I understand that lifting can make muscles more defined thus making them appear to be larger and that water retention/ glycogen storage etc. can actually can make your muscles larger. But wouldnt your monthly measurments flucuate as your water retention and glycogen levels flucuate?
Also ,( I know you didnt mentione this but fiqured I ask your opinion, and anyone can feel to give their opinion) , I understand that strength gains are no indication of muscle gains but is there limitations to newbie strength gains from just improving form, and strengthening their existing muscle, ligaments and tendons etc? For example: over the last 13 months I have increased my bench by over 150 + lbs, my squats and using the Hammer Strength shrug maching by even more? (270 lbs to be exact for my shrugs)
Also, its been mentioned a few times that you can gain a substantial amount of lean muscle by just being lazy, eating too much and getting fat, If this is true why doesnt every body do it? And Im being serious, I went from 180 lbs with no muscle what so ever, got fat, then lost it all and now I weigh 204 lbs even though my waist is smaller then when I was at 180lbs. Basicly go from the first pic. to the 2nd and 3 pic. just from being lazy, eating bad, (and I mean bad!) then losing all the fat. (not saying you cant gain some muscle, but to gain no knew muscle in my legs and all of it in my upper body does not seem right)

Assuming you lift consistently and continue to challenge yourself in the gym, I don't think water/glycogen will fluctuate *too* much, but that certainly isn't my area of expertise. My understanding is that up front your muscles will retain a substantial amount of water for repair (hence initial weight gains right after taking up lifting) and that over time that amount decreases. It never goes fully back to sedentary levels though as weight lifting still beats up your muscles. Again that's just my understanding of it, would be happy to hear from someone with more knowledge in the area.

For strength gains a lot of it depends on where you start and how much your form has improved since then. Since it sounds like you went from 0 to 100 in terms of exercise intensity, I do think a 150 lb increase on a deficit is reasonable. On the high end yes (congratulations on that btw, it's a solid gain), but doable.

And the final question about why people don't all just bulk to gain muscle. The problem with that mentality is that the bulk cycle still isn't "easy". If you just eat a lot and don't exercise or eat the right spread of nutrients, you'll gain a lot of fat and not as much muscle (same way if you cut poorly you'll lose a lot of muscle and not as much fat). On both ends of the spectrum, eating a diet consistent with your goals is very important. You also run into the issue of fat gain masking your progress. In the same way cutting fat can make your muscles look big, gaining fat can make them look smaller. That being said, cutting tends to be more difficult than bulking (at least it is for me). For *most* people cutting fat is going to make their physique look more impressive than gaining muscle, though once they get their fat levels low enough the next step is to bulk and start the cycle to make their body even more impressive.

Jeff92se

Isn't 150lbs alot to be improving via technique?

Seems like a lot but I guess it depends on where he started. If he started only hit 90 or 110lbs for a single / double and now he's benching 250+, could be I guess.

90lbs is a 45lb bar and 25s on each side. I sort of doubt he started there

Ripken818836701

I pretty much agree with everything you just posted. Just a few questions? I understand that lifting can make muscles more defined thus making them appear to be larger and that water retention/ glycogen storage etc. can actually can make your muscles larger. But wouldnt your monthly measurments flucuate as your water retention and glycogen levels flucuate?
Also ,( I know you didnt mentione this but fiqured I ask your opinion, and anyone can feel to give their opinion) , I understand that strength gains are no indication of muscle gains but is there limitations to newbie strength gains from just improving form, and strengthening their existing muscle, ligaments and tendons etc? For example: over the last 13 months I have increased my bench by over 150 + lbs, my squats and using the Hammer Strength shrug maching by even more? (270 lbs to be exact for my shrugs)
Also, its been mentioned a few times that you can gain a substantial amount of lean muscle by just being lazy, eating too much and getting fat, If this is true why doesnt every body do it? And Im being serious, I went from 180 lbs with no muscle what so ever, got fat, then lost it all and now I weigh 204 lbs even though my waist is smaller then when I was at 180lbs. Basicly go from the first pic. to the 2nd and 3 pic. just from being lazy, eating bad, (and I mean bad!) then losing all the fat. (not saying you cant gain some muscle, but to gain no knew muscle in my legs and all of it in my upper body does not seem right)

Assuming you lift consistently and continue to challenge yourself in the gym, I don't think water/glycogen will fluctuate *too* much, but that certainly isn't my area of expertise. My understanding is that up front your muscles will retain a substantial amount of water for repair (hence initial weight gains right after taking up lifting) and that over time that amount decreases. It never goes fully back to sedentary levels though as weight lifting still beats up your muscles. Again that's just my understanding of it, would be happy to hear from someone with more knowledge in the area.

For strength gains a lot of it depends on where you start and how much your form has improved since then. Since it sounds like you went from 0 to 100 in terms of exercise intensity, I do think a 150 lb increase on a deficit is reasonable. On the high end yes (congratulations on that btw, it's a solid gain), but doable.

And the final question about why people don't all just bulk to gain muscle. The problem with that mentality is that the bulk cycle still isn't "easy". If you just eat a lot and don't exercise or eat the right spread of nutrients, you'll gain a lot of fat and not as much muscle (same way if you cut poorly you'll lose a lot of muscle and not as much fat). On both ends of the spectrum, eating a diet consistent with your goals is very important. You also run into the issue of fat gain masking your progress. In the same way cutting fat can make your muscles look big, gaining fat can make them look smaller. That being said, cutting tends to be more difficult than bulking (at least it is for me). For *most* people cutting fat is going to make their physique look more impressive than gaining muscle, though once they get their fat levels low enough the next step is to bulk and start the cycle to make their body even more impressive.

Yes I bust my butt in the gym, ( I got addicted to lifting right away, cardio not so much.:bigsmile: ) my goal for each and every set I do is to be able to increase the weight on my next set by 1.25 -2.5 lbs. regardless od exercise. As far as my form, I pretty much had my form mastered for most exercises by the end of my 2nd month of lifting ( had alot of help, advice etc.)
As far a water retention and glycogen levels increasing the size of my muscles, my monthly measurements might not have always increased but they never decreased.
But I wasnt tasking why doesnt every body bulk, I was asking since I went from 180 lbs, got lazy, ate terrible, layed on the couch got fat, then decided to lose it and ended up at 204lbs with a smaller waist than when I weighed 180 lbs, why would any one bulk, eat healthy, but their butt in the gym and the cut? Alot easier to do it the way I did it. Most BBer's have to eat perfect, bust their butt in the for an entire year to gain 10lb.'s of muscle.

Ripken818836701

Isn't 150lbs alot to be improving via technique?

Seems like a lot but I guess it depends on where he started. If he started only hit 90 or 110lbs for a single / double and now he's benching 250+, could be I guess.

90lbs is a 45lb bar and 25s on each side. I sort of doubt he started there

I started with a 45 lb bar and 2, 45 lb plates (4 sets) for the first couple weeks, Got to know a few guys and they offered to help/spot me and I was able to go to 145 lbs (4 sets) From 145 lbs I gained 157.5 lbs on my bench and now bench 302.5 lbs.

lady_in_weighting

Ive been eating under my recommended calories as advised by MFP on week days and have been doing cardio and weight training. I do eat over my calorie allowance on weekends im sure!
I have gained muscle in all the core area's that i have been working and look so much healthier for it.
plus ive gained 4lbs since january this year!
im gaining mass by having spike weekends which i like to do (:

Ripken818836701

Ive been eating under my recommended calories as advised by MFP on week days and have been doing cardio and weight training. I do eat over my calorie allowance on weekends im sure!
I have gained muscle in all the core area's that i have been working and look so much healthier for it.
plus ive gained 4lbs since january this year!
im gaining mass by having spike weekends which i like to do (:

Congrads priesr!!

ArroganceInStep

Yes I bust my butt in the gym, ( I got addicted to lifting right away, cardio not so much.:bigsmile: ) my goal for each and every set I do is to be able to increase the weight on my next set by 1.25 -2.5 lbs. regardless od exercise. As far as my form, I pretty much had my form mastered for most exercises by the end of my 2nd month of lifting ( had alot of help, advice etc.)
As far a water retention and glycogen levels increasing the size of my muscles, my monthly measurements might not have always increased but they never decreased.
But I wasnt tasking why doesnt every body bulk, I was asking since I went from 180 lbs, got lazy, ate terrible, layed on the couch got fat, then decided to lose it and ended up at 204lbs with a smaller waist than when I weighed 180 lbs, why would any one bulk, eat healthy, but their butt in the gym and the cut? Alot easier to do it the way I did it. Most BBer's have to eat perfect, bust their butt in the for an entire year to gain 10lb.'s of muscle.

Because it's less efficient. You had mentioned getting ready to start a bulk cycle. If you were to completely shaft your diet and eat whatever you want without any thought towards macronutrients there's a good chance you'd gain a lot more fat than you would have being a bit smarter about it. Some people do have bulk cycles that are literally stuff-your-face periods, but I don't think that's the smartest way to go about doing things. The biggest issue however would be with 'getting lazy'. If you stop lifting it'll have a negative impact on your body's musculature. The work that you've done would atrophy. That's why bodybuilders can't do things the way you did.

I will also mention that bodybuilder's are going for quite a bit more than the average person. Take your progress over the last year. As they get closer to their theoretical limit of muscle mass and such, it gets harder and harder to add mass. If you keep it up with what you're doing you'll see the same thing down the road.

Ripken818836701

Yes I bust my butt in the gym, ( I got addicted to lifting right away, cardio not so much.:bigsmile: ) my goal for each and every set I do is to be able to increase the weight on my next set by 1.25 -2.5 lbs. regardless od exercise. As far as my form, I pretty much had my form mastered for most exercises by the end of my 2nd month of lifting ( had alot of help, advice etc.)
As far a water retention and glycogen levels increasing the size of my muscles, my monthly measurements might not have always increased but they never decreased.
But I wasnt tasking why doesnt every body bulk, I was asking since I went from 180 lbs, got lazy, ate terrible, layed on the couch got fat, then decided to lose it and ended up at 204lbs with a smaller waist than when I weighed 180 lbs, why would any one bulk, eat healthy, but their butt in the gym and the cut? Alot easier to do it the way I did it. Most BBer's have to eat perfect, bust their butt in the for an entire year to gain 10lb.'s of muscle.

Because it's less efficient. You had mentioned getting ready to start a bulk cycle. If you were to completely shaft your diet and eat whatever you want without any thought towards macronutrients there's a good chance you'd gain a lot more fat than you would have being a bit smarter about it. Some people do have bulk cycles that are literally stuff-your-face periods, but I don't think that's the smartest way to go about doing things. The biggest issue however would be with 'getting lazy'. If you stop lifting it'll have a negative impact on your body's musculature. The work that you've done would atrophy. That's why bodybuilders can't do things the way you did.

I will also mention that bodybuilder's are going for quite a bit more than the average person. Take your progress over the last year. As they get closer to their theoretical limit of muscle mass and such, it gets harder and harder to add mass. If you keep it up with what you're doing you'll see the same thing down the road.

Less efficient? According to many here I didnt gain any LM. busting my butt in the gym over the past 13 months, just gained all of it from being lazy, getting fat and exposed it as I lost the fat. My goal is to bulk and cut until I reach 220 lbs. and that is probably gonna take a couple years. Wouldnt it be more efficient ( since It is alot easier for me to gain and cut fat then it is build lean muscle) to continue to lift, eat all the food, drink all the beer I want and just cut once? I mean if I can gain as much LM. from just being lazy and getting fat as some people claimed I have, Imagine how much muscle I can gain from lifting at the same time as gaining fat. (not saying that niner and the others are correct, just asking?)

ArroganceInStep

Less efficient? According to many here I didnt gain any LM. busting my butt in the gym over the past 13 months, just gained all of it from being lazy, getting fat and exposed it as I lost the fat. My goal is to bulk and cut until I reach 220 lbs. and that is probably gonna take a couple years. Wouldnt it be more efficient ( since It is alot easier for me to gain and cut fat then it is build lean muscle) to continue to lift, eat all the food, drink all the beer I want and just cut once? I mean if I can gain as much LM. from just being lazy and getting fat as some people claimed I have, Imagine how much muscle I can gain from lifting at the same time as gaining fat. (not saying that niner and the others are correct, just asking?)

That's being pretty extreme, and is not the main point that a lot of us were trying to make. Having a smart lifting routine when cutting helps you to maintain lean muscle mass on a deficit. That's extremely important as your body tends to cannibalize muscle mass when you're cutting and you end up with the skinny fat physique. Additionally, the problem with the 'gain a ton and cut once' plan is that there's only so much muscle you can gain on a bulk (and only so much you can retain on a cut). If you bulk up to 400 lbs, sure you'll have a lot of muscle, but you'll have also taken on a lot of fat too. When you cut you'll likely still be at a pretty high BF%. Doing smaller bulks and cuts will have you gaining more muscle during your bulk and losing less muscle on the cut. Ultimately the cycles will have you at a much lower BF% with more muscle mass than you would have otherwise.

I can't repeat enough, just because you may not directly increase muscle mass on a cut (or only increase it marginally) the value of strength training for muscle retention cannot be overstated. Keeping muscle mass on a cut is tremendously important. I recognize that 'staying the same' on a cut really feels like you're getting screwed since you've worked so hard. Perhaps if you looked at it this way: "If all I had done was eat at a deficit, I would have still reached 204 lbs, but I wouldn't look anywhere near as good as I do now. Since my body would have naturally pillaged a LOT more muscle mass than it did on my cut, I've essentially 'gained muscle' by not losing any on a deficit"

Again I reference the 4 points I made previously. It's possible (I'd go so far as to say probable) that you gained some muscle mass as a result of newbie/obese gains (not a lot, but some). You've already agreed with me that you would've gained much more muscle if you were eating at a surplus. You are obviously proud of the way you look now (and it is impressive) and you're seeing solid strength gains as well. Why does it matter if the weight of your muscles increased by the large amount you feel it did rather than the much more moderate amount that is, frankly, more likely?

Jeff92se

I'd say it's pretty hard to improve your bench press 150lbs (285lbs from 135lbs) just by technique

ArroganceInStep

I'd say it's pretty hard to improve your bench press 150lbs (285lbs from 135lbs) just by technique

I'd argue that 135 wasn't necessarily a tremendously heavy working weight for him whereas his top end of 300 now probably is. Lots of people start out at a set of plates just because.

rpguru

Less efficient? According to many here I didnt gain any LM. busting my butt in the gym over the past 13 months, just gained all of it from being lazy, getting fat and exposed it as I lost the fat. My goal is to bulk and cut until I reach 220 lbs. and that is probably gonna take a couple years. Wouldnt it be more efficient ( since It is alot easier for me to gain and cut fat then it is build lean muscle) to continue to lift, eat all the food, drink all the beer I want and just cut once? I mean if I can gain as much LM. from just being lazy and getting fat as some people claimed I have, Imagine how much muscle I can gain from lifting at the same time as gaining fat. (not saying that niner and the others are correct, just asking?)

You will regret this. Even with newb gains you are looking at maybe 10-12 pounds of muscle a year. Anything you gain beyond that will be fat. You do have to accept some fat gain during a bulk but why eat everything in sight just to stack on a bunch of extra fat that you have to cut later. I would say 2-4 pounds a month max during your bulk.

Jeff92se

I'd say it's pretty hard to improve your bench press 150lbs (285lbs from 135lbs) just by technique

I'd argue that 135 wasn't necessarily a tremendously heavy working weight for him whereas his top end of 300 now probably is. Lots of people start out at a set of plates just because.

I'd say a 100lb improvement is too much for merely technique. So now he's starting off at 185lbs.

Ripken818836701

Less efficient? According to many here I didnt gain any LM. busting my butt in the gym over the past 13 months, just gained all of it from being lazy, getting fat and exposed it as I lost the fat. My goal is to bulk and cut until I reach 220 lbs. and that is probably gonna take a couple years. Wouldnt it be more efficient ( since It is alot easier for me to gain and cut fat then it is build lean muscle) to continue to lift, eat all the food, drink all the beer I want and just cut once? I mean if I can gain as much LM. from just being lazy and getting fat as some people claimed I have, Imagine how much muscle I can gain from lifting at the same time as gaining fat. (not saying that niner and the others are correct, just asking?)

You will regret this. Even with newb gains you are looking at maybe 10-12 pounds of muscle a year. Anything you gain beyond that will be fat. You do have to accept some fat gain during a bulk but why eat everything in sight just to stack on a bunch of extra fat that you have to cut later. I would say 2-4 pounds a month max during your bulk.

Thanks for the reply, I just started to bulk (the proper way) but some here have stated that you can gain a substantial amount of muscle from just getting fat without exercise ( their explanation of difference of lean muscle in the 3 pics I posted above and I was 220 lbs in the 2nd pic.) If they are correct and I know they are not, it wouldnt any sense not to gain lean muscle that way. Besides I was happy as a clam at 230lbs.