Let's talk about...the Paleo Diet
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Here is my problem with low-carb advocates. They all claim carbs are so bad, yet they require a refeed at some point to replenish glycogen levels. Especially if they engage in some form of exercise.
Selenium, Manganese, phosphorous... are those beneficial?I said in that same paragraph that the toppings had some nutrients, but the crust is nutriently devoid.
OK, while I limit my carbs, I still allow enough for some higher carb splurges because, well, I like them, I just don't do well eating them daily for various reasons. On Thursday, I had a great Italian dinner of seafood risotto, salad, garlic bread and a good Merlot and I bought a great loaf of cardamom bread at a bakery on Saturday which I have been enjoying a slice of each day. Also ate a sandwich on Saturday made on sourdough bread. So I'm not an anti-carb zealot.
At the same time, if people feel better, function better, eliminate or alleviate various problems eating no breads, pasta or pizza, I don't really care. If it works for them and they're happy, they can go for it.
That said, what nutrients do we need to eat grains in order to obtain? Per the National Institute of Health, we get those nutrients from the following sources:
*
Selenium
"Plant foods, such as vegetables, are the most common dietary sources of selenium. How much selenium is in the vegetables you eat depends on how much of the mineral was in the soil where the plants grew. Fish, shellfish, red meat, grains, eggs, chicken, liver, and garlic are all good sources of selenium. Meats produced from animals that ate grains or plants found in selenium-rich soil have higher levels of selenium. Brewer's yeast, wheat germ, and enriched breads are also good sources of selenium." http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002414.htm
Manganese
"Manganese is a mineral that is found in several foods including nuts, legumes, seeds, tea, whole grains, and leafy green vegetables." http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/182.html
Phosphorus
"The main food sources are the protein food groups of meat and milk. A meal plan that provides adequate amounts of calcium and protein also provides an adequate amount of phosphorus. Although whole-grain breads and cereals contain more phosphorus than cereals and breads made from refined flour, this is a storage form of phosphorus called phytin, which is not absorbed by humans. Fruits and vegetables contain only small amounts of phosphorus."
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002424.htm
So, if they got it right, selenium is the only item you listed that is probably found in most pizza crust. Unless the pizza crust is made from whole grains (and I haven't ever seen that but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist), there would be no manganese unless the flour was enriched with it. And the phosphorous in grains is not absorbed by humans.
All of these nutrients are found in things like vegetables and meats so it's not necessary to eat grains to get them.
My question: What nutrients require us to eat grains in order to get them as they can't be obtained from other sources?
And don't say carbs as they can be easily obtained from vegetables, nuts, seeds, etc. which are, I believe, all allowed on most paleo-style plans.
The battle should be against whole grains, not carbs as a whole.
I have no qualms with carbs. I eat a ton of vegetables, nuts, seeds, sweet potatoes and I can tolerate white rice in small amounts - all carbs.
I know just as well as you do that white flour is nutritionally void, unless it is enriched and enriched foods the synthetic nutrients that are added back in are most likely not absorbed, so white flour (aka pizza crust) is pretty much void of all nutrients. This has been stated for forever.
I can't eat grains, except for some white rice of occasion so back the eff up.0 -
No one seems to take in account that many people that reap the benefits of either controlling carbs or eliminating certain foods are doing so out of necessity.
No they just falsely believe that only 1% of the population can benefit from controlling carbs.0 -
So you find a list of 5 items containing manganese, and decide based on that incredibly limited sample (there are thousands of foods containing manganese, it's one of the most common elements on the planet, and yes, it's in refined white flour,) you decide that a poster's entire contribution of knowledge is suspect? That's incredibly short sighted, especially because your argument has nothing to do with the point he was making, which is that pizza crust does contain nutrients, and is not "nutritionally devoid" as was claimed. Could he have chosen other nutrients? Sure, he most likely chose them at random.All of these nutrients are found in things like vegetables and meats so it's not necessary to eat grains to get them.
My question: What nutrients require us to eat grains in order to get them as they can't be obtained from other sources?
And don't say carbs as they can be easily obtained from vegetables, nuts, seeds, etc. which are, I believe, all allowed on most paleo-style plans.
I don't think anyone said that you need to eat grains, the topic at hand was the claim that the crust was nutritionally devoid, not if there were better sources for the nutrients in the crust. I would agree with you that there are better sources for the nutrients, but the crust still has nutrients in it
SideSteal named those three nutrients specifically even though only one, selenium, is probably in the pizza crust naturally and manganese only if the flour was enriched. Phosphorus that we can actually use doesn't even come from grains atll.
So, yes, he did make a specific claim that turns out not to be true. I'd love to hear his thoughts on that and, of course, that bit of misinformation is going to make me skeptical of his other statements.
White flour is really just refined carbohydrates since the germ and bran have been removed. (The wheat germ is the most nutrient dense part of the grain; rich in vitamin E, zinc, iron, magnesium, potassium, phosphorus, foliate, vitamin B6, manganese, and selenium.)
Like I said, it is nutritionally void.0 -
The WHO seems to think obesity is a rising problem.
http://www.who.int/hpr/NPH/docs/gs_obesity.pdf
So if processed foods aren't a good diet, what diet beats the paleo diet of more natural whole foods?
Doesn't the Paleo diet cut out grains? Grains are natural. Doesn't it also cut out dairy? Isn't dairy natural?
When I say processed, I mean food that has an ingredient list so long that it takes twenty minutes just to read it.
Edited to Add: I will read your article later. Thank you for the link.0 -
SideSteal named those three nutrients specifically even though only one, selenium, is probably in the pizza crust naturally and manganese only if the flour was enriched. Phosphorus that we can actually use doesn't even come from grains atll.
So, yes, he did make a specific claim that turns out not to be true. I'd love to hear his thoughts on that and, of course, that bit of misinformation is going to make me skeptical of his other statements.
That's fair if you're correct. Here's one of many examples that claim those nutrients exist in pizza crust but I'll be the first to admit that I'm no chef.
http://www.livestrong.com/article/268575-nutritional-information-of-pizza/
The point that I was trying to make, that I should have been clear on, is to differentiate at what point someone defines something as nutritionally void. I was pointing out that pizza crust contains nutrients/minerals. If I was incorrect about the specific minerals that I mentioned, I'd welcome you to correct it. The above link contains information on pizza crust but of course, you can certainly question the source if you'd like.
As of now though, you have yet to do anything to prove my statement false.
Pizza crust is made of white flour.............white flour is not nutritional unless you add SYNTHETIC nutrients back in to make it enriched.
White flour is merely carbohydrate where the nutrients have basically been removed unless it has been enriched. And you are aware that the majority of the nutrients they enrich foods with do not get absorbed.
So what part of nutritionally void is not understood?0 -
I was going to give my personal experiences with the Paleo diet good and bad and why I choose the Paleo route..then went to primal then finally to GAPS.. But after reading all 12 pages I think it would be a huge waste of time. Most people on here have already formed their opinions ..on boths sides of the arguement and are not willing to change them . so that being said.. I would just simply suggest to everyone who is against the Paleo diet to try it for 60 days. Consider it your own scientific experiment.. do it 100% , record all of your findings.. and if after that 60 days if you don't feel better then fine..go back to how you want to eat and be done with it.. then you will have a real place from which to combat all the claims..until then all this back and forth is getting everyone no where but frustrated and angry.0
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So you find a list of 5 items containing manganese, and decide based on that incredibly limited sample (there are thousands of foods containing manganese, it's one of the most common elements on the planet, and yes, it's in refined white flour,) you decide that a poster's entire contribution of knowledge is suspect? That's incredibly short sighted, especially because your argument has nothing to do with the point he was making, which is that pizza crust does contain nutrients, and is not "nutritionally devoid" as was claimed. Could he have chosen other nutrients? Sure, he most likely chose them at random.All of these nutrients are found in things like vegetables and meats so it's not necessary to eat grains to get them.
My question: What nutrients require us to eat grains in order to get them as they can't be obtained from other sources?
And don't say carbs as they can be easily obtained from vegetables, nuts, seeds, etc. which are, I believe, all allowed on most paleo-style plans.
I don't think anyone said that you need to eat grains, the topic at hand was the claim that the crust was nutritionally devoid, not if there were better sources for the nutrients in the crust. I would agree with you that there are better sources for the nutrients, but the crust still has nutrients in it
SideSteal named those three nutrients specifically even though only one, selenium, is probably in the pizza crust naturally and manganese only if the flour was enriched. Phosphorus that we can actually use doesn't even come from grains atll.
So, yes, he did make a specific claim that turns out not to be true. I'd love to hear his thoughts on that and, of course, that bit of misinformation is going to make me skeptical of his other statements.
White flour is really just refined carbohydrates since the germ and bran have been removed. (The wheat germ is the most nutrient dense part of the grain; rich in vitamin E, zinc, iron, magnesium, potassium, phosphorus, foliate, vitamin B6, manganese, and selenium.)
Like I said, it is nutritionally void.
Protein isn't a nutrient and fats from olive oil aren't nutrients? And if you think crust lacks taste, you haven't had good pizza before0 -
Plus I do not like having joint and muscular pains after eating said grain products for a week or so after eating grain products. I had a bagel last week being courteous to my instructor and have joint pain in my wrists, elbows, hips and knees every since.
If you think I am taking things to the extreme, take time to think about what someone is going through.
l to continue to berate those of us that NEED to cut these foods out for health and well being.
I wouldn't worry about it. I cut out all starchy carbs a little over 10 years ago because of ME/CFS - my main symptoms were Fibromyalgia so I certainly sympathise with the pains. It's a fact that a common treatment for ME is a low-carb diet and that is what my specialist put me on. Before I went on it I could just about walk the length of a room, but no more. I was in constant pain and had to give up my job. With a low-carb diet and intra-muscular Magnesium injections I was back on my feet very quickly. I also had to cut out artificial additives in food and I actually moved out of the city to get away from the effects of pollution too. There are a lot of conditions that restricting carbs helps - IBS, Chronic Fatigue and Type II Diabetes to name 3 biggies.
Guaranteed you'll get people calling you a crank for doing what you do - but when you KNOW you feel better, then frankly it's just better to shrug and let them think they have their small victory because you can bet your *kitten* that if had a condition that was helped by restricting carbs....they'd be doing it too
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The WHO seems to think obesity is a rising problem.
http://www.who.int/hpr/NPH/docs/gs_obesity.pdf
So if processed foods aren't a good diet, what diet beats the paleo diet of more natural whole foods?
Doesn't the Paleo diet cut out grains? Grains are natural. Doesn't it also cut out dairy? Isn't dairy natural? When I say processed, I mean food that has an ingredient list so long that it takes twenty minutes just to read it.
Edited to Add: I will read your article later. Thank you for the link.
What grains can you eat that don't need to be processed to hell, except for rice?
And dairy is allowed on Paleo / Primal as long as your body is tolerant to dairy, so it is very individual.
Many people I know that eat Paleo and Primal eat white rice and some limited dairy.0 -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-17345967
I know it's a metadata study, which some of you don't like, but I have read some of it and it's pretty convincing. Then again, as a vegetarian, I am happy to be convinced.0 -
The WHO seems to think obesity is a rising problem.
http://www.who.int/hpr/NPH/docs/gs_obesity.pdf
So if processed foods aren't a good diet, what diet beats the paleo diet of more natural whole foods?
Doesn't the Paleo diet cut out grains? Grains are natural. Doesn't it also cut out dairy? Isn't dairy natural? When I say processed, I mean food that has an ingredient list so long that it takes twenty minutes just to read it.
Edited to Add: I will read your article later. Thank you for the link.
What grains can you eat that don't need to be processed to hell, except for rice?
And dairy is allowed on Paleo / Primal as long as your body is tolerant to dairy, so it is very individual.
Many people I know that eat Paleo and Primal eat white rice and some limited dairy.
And so processing = bad? So you don't use butter or oils at all?0 -
No one seems to take in account that many people that reap the benefits of either controlling carbs or eliminating certain foods are doing so out of necessity.
No they just falsely believe that only 1% of the population can benefit from controlling carbs.
Considering there are likely 15-20% or more of the population that is suffering from Diabetes or some type of blood sugar disorder I don't see how they can not think only 1% of the population would need to control carbs.
The obesity epidemic is outrageous, some through fault of their own and others from health issues. Either way, a whole foods eating plan would benefit everyone.
I don't know 1 person that would NOT benefit from eating proteins, fats, vegetables, fruits nuts and seeds. For anyone to say otherwise is just trying to create an argument.0 -
The WHO seems to think obesity is a rising problem.
http://www.who.int/hpr/NPH/docs/gs_obesity.pdf
So if processed foods aren't a good diet, what diet beats the paleo diet of more natural whole foods?
Doesn't the Paleo diet cut out grains? Grains are natural. Doesn't it also cut out dairy? Isn't dairy natural? When I say processed, I mean food that has an ingredient list so long that it takes twenty minutes just to read it.
Edited to Add: I will read your article later. Thank you for the link.
What grains can you eat that don't need to be processed to hell, except for rice?
And dairy is allowed on Paleo / Primal as long as your body is tolerant to dairy, so it is very individual.
Many people I know that eat Paleo and Primal eat white rice and some limited dairy.
Exactly. I don't think the cavemen were eating whole wheat bread and cheerios.0 -
The WHO seems to think obesity is a rising problem.
http://www.who.int/hpr/NPH/docs/gs_obesity.pdf
So if processed foods aren't a good diet, what diet beats the paleo diet of more natural whole foods?
Doesn't the Paleo diet cut out grains? Grains are natural. Doesn't it also cut out dairy? Isn't dairy natural? When I say processed, I mean food that has an ingredient list so long that it takes twenty minutes just to read it.
Edited to Add: I will read your article later. Thank you for the link.
What grains can you eat that don't need to be processed to hell, except for rice?
And dairy is allowed on Paleo / Primal as long as your body is tolerant to dairy, so it is very individual.
Many people I know that eat Paleo and Primal eat white rice and some limited dairy.
And so processing = bad? So you don't use butter or oils at all?
I use coconut oil that has been cold pressed and Yes I use butter, but the Amish make it by hand. Cream and salt are the ingredients and they churn it by hand.
Not something you can really call a processed food. I don't use olive oil because I don't like it or olives.0 -
Do a proper refeed.Here is my problem with low-carb advocates. They all claim carbs are so bad, yet they require a refeed at some point to replenish glycogen levels. Especially if they engage in some form of exercise.
The battle should be against whole grains, not carbs as a whole.
How much of a refeed? I ask because I have weeks where I don't eat many carbs (and actually lose better and feel better the weeks I stay within my target and don't splurge on things like the pasta and breads like I did this past week).
I lift heavy 2x/week, do longer steady-state cardio (an hour or more) about 1x/week, and do HIIT 3x/week. I do this even when I'm not eating more than 80-100 grams/carb daily with no negative impact on my ability to exercise intensely or increase my weights.
If what you're saying is true, then why don't my workouts suffer on the weeks I don't do any kind of carb load?
Lower your fat intake.
Drop protein down to 1g.
Increase calories via carbs to your maintenance. Let me know how you feel.
Do you mean 1g protein in total? Or like 1g per pound of LBM? I actually rarely achieve my protein goal of 1g per pound of LBM and have recently added using whey protein to get closer to that goal.
I do have days, sometimes multiple days, where my carb intake is much higher as I do love the taste of higher carb food. And, since I zig-zag, quite often those higher-carb days have me eating at maintenance levels or very close to it.
I actually feel worse those days. I tend to feel sluggish, a bit achy in the joints, sometimes get a bit of a headache, and find it much harder to get into my stride or up-to-speed during my workouts. When doing a cardio or HIIT workout, I need a longer warm-up phase. Sometimes, significantly longer, in order to work the feeling of being sluggish out of my system before I can increase intensity. Although I don't notice that so much on weight-training days as eating more carbs, even for several days in a row, doesn't seem to impact my weight training performance for the good or for the bad.0 -
Well, almost everything we eat is processed. Even the hard boiled eggs I ate for breakfast and the grass fed steaks I'm making for dinner. Cooking is a process.0
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No one seems to take in account that many people that reap the benefits of either controlling carbs or eliminating certain foods are doing so out of necessity.
No they just falsely believe that only 1% of the population can benefit from controlling carbs.
Considering there are likely 15-20% or more of the population that is suffering from Diabetes or some type of blood sugar disorder I don't see how they can not think only 1% of the population would need to control carbs.
The obesity epidemic is outrageous, some through fault of their own and others from health issues. Either way, a whole foods eating plan would benefit everyone.
I don't know 1 person that would NOT benefit from eating proteins, fats, vegetables, fruits nuts and seeds. For anyone to say otherwise is just trying to create an argument.
It is because they believe that the cause of obesity is gluttony and sloth, not the macro-nutrient intakes or processing of foods. They believe that anyone except the rare case can lose weight eating whatever they desire by utilizing manual caloric restriction. I can't say studies/statistics will back up that claim when we're talking real people who make their own decisions as opposed to those starved in a metabolic ward.0 -
The WHO seems to think obesity is a rising problem.
http://www.who.int/hpr/NPH/docs/gs_obesity.pdf
So if processed foods aren't a good diet, what diet beats the paleo diet of more natural whole foods?
Doesn't the Paleo diet cut out grains? Grains are natural. Doesn't it also cut out dairy? Isn't dairy natural? When I say processed, I mean food that has an ingredient list so long that it takes twenty minutes just to read it.
Edited to Add: I will read your article later. Thank you for the link.
What grains can you eat that don't need to be processed to hell, except for rice?
And dairy is allowed on Paleo / Primal as long as your body is tolerant to dairy, so it is very individual.
Many people I know that eat Paleo and Primal eat white rice and some limited dairy.
And so processing = bad? So you don't use butter or oils at all?
I use coconut oil that has been cold pressed and Yes I use butter, but the Amish make it by hand. Cream and salt are the ingredients and they churn it by hand.
Not something you can really call a processed food. I don't use olive oil because I don't like it or olives.
So basically you will use processed foods, you just justify it by telling yourself they aren't processed?0 -
What grains can you eat that don't need to be processed to hell, except for rice?
And dairy is allowed on Paleo / Primal as long as your body is tolerant to dairy, so it is very individual.
Many people I know that eat Paleo and Primal eat white rice and some limited dairy.
Really, how long have people been eating grains? Isn't whole wheat flour okay? Aren't oats a grain? Aren't they okay? How about Quinoa? Rye? Millet? Buckwheat? I was under the impression these were fairly good for you.
I don't know. I suppose I'm old school. I grew up with grains being on the pyramid of the food groups we're supposed to eat. 0 -
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