Let's talk about...the Paleo Diet

funkycamper

SideSteal named those three nutrients specifically even though only one, selenium, is probably in the pizza crust naturally and manganese only if the flour was enriched. Phosphorus that we can actually use doesn't even come from grains atll.

So, yes, he did make a specific claim that turns out not to be true. I'd love to hear his thoughts on that and, of course, that bit of misinformation is going to make me skeptical of his other statements.

That's fair if you're correct. Here's one of many examples that claim those nutrients exist in pizza crust but I'll be the first to admit that I'm no chef.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/268575-nutritional-information-of-pizza/

The point that I was trying to make, that I should have been clear on, is to differentiate at what point someone defines something as nutritionally void. I was pointing out that pizza crust contains nutrients/minerals. If I was incorrect about the specific minerals that I mentioned, I'd welcome you to correct it. The above link contains information on pizza crust but of course, you can certainly question the source if you'd like.

As of now though, you have yet to do anything to prove my statement false.

I never claimed pizza crust was devoid of minerals. Just that you listed such specific ones that are questionable in pizza dough per the National Institute of Health (or whatever it was called that I used). If you had not been so specific, I wouldn't even have bothered to respond to your post.

I eat pizza a few times a month so I'm sure not anti-pizza. However, there is nothing in the crust that you need and can only get from pizza crust or other wheat-based foods. In fact, I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what nutrients you must eat wheat-based foods to get that you can't easily get elsewhere. No one has ever responded to that challenge. Even the most carb-positive folks.

fteale

Yes you adhere to the food pyramid, the government really has your best interest at heart (cough) and have you noticed the more grains servings they have added to the food pyramid the fatter people get.

The grains that are eaten today are in no shape or form the same grains that were eaten a hundred years ago, let alone thousands of years ago.

Whole wheat flour, Rye, buckwheat and all other grains contain gluten, which causes me to have joint pain for days or sometimes weeks on end.

Technically all grains contain some level of gluten, some more so than others. I stay away from grains for many reasons and staying pain free is one of them. As I previously mentioned, I had a blueberry bagel as a courteous gesture from our instructor that brought them to class last week, I have been aching in my bones and joints ever since to the point of being in tears at times.

Millet and quinoa are seeds that I do not partake in.

The only seeds I do eat are sunflower and pumpkin seed.

And oats? They are gluten-free my friend. I know. I'm allergic to wheat, barley and intolerant to gluten. Last I checked oats are considered a grain.

Because gluten makes you sick doesn't mean it makes everyone sick. People who can eat grains and gluten have no reason NOT to eat grains and gluten really.

Ha! Now this one I can answer! Although oats are natural gluten free, they are almost always cross pollinated and therefore contaminated with wheat. You can buy uncontaminated oats that are grown in certified wheat free conditions (a certain number of miles from any wheat farms, or in sealed polytunnels). However, some people with coeliac disease also have a sensitivity to oats as well, so it is advised to introduce guaranteed uncontaminated oats into the diet slowly to check for any reaction.

LorinaLynn

I never claimed pizza crust was devoid of minerals. Just that you listed such specific ones that are questionable in pizza dough per the National Institute of Health (or whatever it was called that I used). If you had not been so specific, I wouldn't even have bothered to respond to your post.

I eat pizza a few times a month so I'm sure not anti-pizza. However, there is nothing in the crust that you need and can only get from pizza crust or other wheat-based foods. In fact, I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what nutrients you must eat wheat-based foods to get that you can't easily get elsewhere. No one has ever responded to that challenge. Even the most carb-positive folks.

You didn't say it was void of nutrients, but another did.

I'm sure not going to say that wheat is necessary. I know it's not, and I know people who can't eat it. But if one doesn't have an intolerance to it, I see no need to avoid it. It's not necessary... but I enjoy a lot of things in life that aren't purely necessary, like my car, computer, cell phone, and memory foam mattress topper.

RonSwanson66

You didn't say it was void of nutrients, but another did.

I'm pretty sure it was the artist formerly known as Grokette.

penrbrown

Actually... and I wish I had links to the articles I read... but recent research has shown that indeed oats are usually NOT cross contaminated. They are still perfectly okay for those with celiac... but you know how research goes. One day it's okay, the next it's not!

Either way, it's a grain. I'm not sure why people who AREN'T afflicted with celiac's should avoid oats and if I'm reading correctly the Paleo diet requires avoidance of grains... which would include things such as oats and buckwheat (a seed) and quinoa (another seed)...

I don't know. You just can't convince me those things are bad to NON-celiac sufferers.

Sidesteal

I never claimed pizza crust was devoid of minerals.

I know that. Someone else did.

Just that you listed such specific ones that are questionable in pizza dough per the National Institute of Health (or whatever it was called that I used). If you had not been so specific, I wouldn't even have bothered to respond to your post.

Did you see the link I provided and can you tell me what is wrong about it, rather than just attacking my credibility?

However, there is nothing in the crust that you need and can only get from pizza crust or other wheat-based foods.

I agree. I also don't think it's necessary to eat pizza crust. But, I think pizza is delicious and that's enough of a reason for me to consume it.

grinch031

Yes you adhere to the food pyramid, the government really has your best interest at heart (cough) and have you noticed the more grains servings they have added to the food pyramid the fatter people get.

The grains that are eaten today are in no shape or form the same grains that were eaten a hundred years ago, let alone thousands of years ago.

Whole wheat flour, Rye, buckwheat and all other grains contain gluten, which causes me to have joint pain for days or sometimes weeks on end.

Technically all grains contain some level of gluten, some more so than others. I stay away from grains for many reasons and staying pain free is one of them. As I previously mentioned, I had a blueberry bagel as a courteous gesture from our instructor that brought them to class last week, I have been aching in my bones and joints ever since to the point of being in tears at times.

Millet and quinoa are seeds that I do not partake in.

The only seeds I do eat are sunflower and pumpkin seed.

And oats? They are gluten-free my friend. I know. I'm allergic to wheat, barley and intolerant to gluten. Last I checked oats are considered a grain.

Because gluten makes you sick doesn't mean it makes everyone sick. People who can eat grains and gluten have no reason NOT to eat grains and gluten really.

The reality is most people are told they are overweight/obese because they are gluttonous and eat too much, so they never find out that they might have intolerance to gluten or to carbs in general. I suspect that as things progress, we will find more and more people are negatively affected by eating grains. Much more than some tiny insignificant percentage of the population.

RonSwanson66

The reality is most people are told they are overweight/obese because they are gluttonous and eat too much, so they never find out that they might have intolerance to gluten or to carbs in general. I suspect that as things progress, we will find more and more people are negatively affected by eating grains. Much more than some tiny insignificant percentage of the population.

I love how you make things up.

funkycamper

I think the original intent of this thread was to discuss the merits of the diet from a scientific standpoint. Has any of this actually occurred yet?

:drinker: Perfect. I need to steal that one.

ArroganceInStep

bump for later...wow...just wow

fteale

Actually... and I wish I had links to the articles I read... but recent research has shown that indeed oats are usually NOT cross contaminated. They are still perfectly okay for those with celiac... but you know how research goes. One day it's okay, the next it's not!

Either way, it's a grain. I'm not sure why people who AREN'T afflicted with celiac's should avoid oats and if I'm reading correctly the Paleo diet requires avoidance of grains... which would include things such as oats and buckwheat (a seed) and quinoa (another seed)...

I don't know. You just can't convince me those things are bad to NON-celiac sufferers.

I am right with you on the non-coeliac thing. I see no reason not to eat grains in moderation. My housemate/lodger/friend has coeliac disease, though, so I am very very aware of what she can and can't eat and not to cross contaminate anything in my house, and she is not allowed regular oats at all. We are in the UK, it may be that it is different here, but people with coeliac disease can get specifically uncontaminated oats on prescription if they want them.

Drunkadelic

You just can't convince me those things are bad to .....

Exactly. No one on this thread it getting convinced of anything. So, what's the point again?

Isolt

I never said pizza crust is nutritionally void. While I don't think it's full of good nutrition and believe there are far better choices, it does have something.

My pizza crusts are certainly not nutritionally void....they're made out of ground chicken breast, ground cauliflower and mozzarella to bind them. They're rather lovely.

Even when I ate wheat I hated pizza crusts and would just pull the toppings off them so I was prettty happy to find a recipe for a wheat-free alternative.

Resalyn

bump

Anomalia

Oh god... this **** is STILL going?!

funkycamper

I never claimed pizza crust was devoid of minerals. Just that you listed such specific ones that are questionable in pizza dough per the National Institute of Health (or whatever it was called that I used). If you had not been so specific, I wouldn't even have bothered to respond to your post.

I eat pizza a few times a month so I'm sure not anti-pizza. However, there is nothing in the crust that you need and can only get from pizza crust or other wheat-based foods. In fact, I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what nutrients you must eat wheat-based foods to get that you can't easily get elsewhere. No one has ever responded to that challenge. Even the most carb-positive folks.

You didn't say it was void of nutrients, but another did.

I'm sure not going to say that wheat is necessary. I know it's not, and I know people who can't eat it. But if one doesn't have an intolerance to it, I see no need to avoid it. It's not necessary... but I enjoy a lot of things in life that aren't purely necessary, like my car, computer, cell phone, and memory foam mattress topper.

I totally agree. If someone doesn't have any kind of intolerance or other issues with it, eat away. I love the taste of high-carb foods. I'd choose to eat fresh baked bread over just anything else on the planet. And I do still do it sometimes. I just can't do it regularly or in large portions or I pay a big price for it as it makes me feel like crap in many ways if I overdo it.

What I don't understand is why people feel a need to tell people that function and feel better without a diet heavy in carbs, that they're wrong or that they're doing something bad or themselves. Not saying you've done that but it seems to be the MO of a lot of people here at MFP.

The only time I chime in and tell people I think they're doing something wrong is when they are on VLC diets because, well, been there, done it, and still trying to heal myself from the metabolic effects of it. And you are one of my inspirations for that, thank you! But I don't believe in telling people what they should specifically eat. Unless they ask for help and then I'll tell them that I've read or heard that they might want to try or that something worked for me but I really try avoid saying that my way is dogma except for the VLC diet discussions.

funkycamper

I never claimed pizza crust was devoid of minerals.

I know that. Someone else did.

Just that you listed such specific ones that are questionable in pizza dough per the National Institute of Health (or whatever it was called that I used). If you had not been so specific, I wouldn't even have bothered to respond to your post.

Did you see the link I provided and can you tell me what is wrong about it, rather than just attacking my credibility?

However, there is nothing in the crust that you need and can only get from pizza crust or other wheat-based foods.

I agree. I also don't think it's necessary to eat pizza crust. But, I think pizza is delicious and that's enough of a reason for me to consume it.

Sigh...the links I provided told you what was wrong with your link. Is my link right and yours wrong? Heck, I really don't know for sure. While I think LiveStrong is a great website, I'm inclined to believe my link. YMMV.

I love pizza, too, and that's what I eat it a few times a month. And while it does have some nutrition, I would never describe it as a nutrient-dense food.

My question still stands: What nutrients does one get from wheat-based foods of any kind that can't be easily obtained from vegetables or proteins or healthy fats?

funkycamper

The reality is most people are told they are overweight/obese because they are gluttonous and eat too much, so they never find out that they might have intolerance to gluten or to carbs in general. I suspect that as things progress, we will find more and more people are negatively affected by eating grains. Much more than some tiny insignificant percentage of the population.

I love how you make things up.

Well, I was told this.

I went on Weight Watchers, weighed/measured/tracked everything that went into my mouth and either met or was a bit under WW's recommendation. That was years ago and I have no idea how it compares to more recent WW programs but, at the time, the diet was heavy in carbs. I was starving all the time due to blood sugar swings (although I didn't realize that was what it was at the time). Still I was determined and adhered to the program. I actually gained a bit of weight on it. IIRC, it was about 5# over 2 months. I was told by the WW folks and various friends/family that I must be lying and eating a lot more than I said I was.

These types of accusations went on for years. It was very discouraging and really did negatively impact my self-esteem and confidence. I felt like a failure. I gained and gained and yet rarely consumed as much as others around me who weren't overweight. It was confusing and discouraging. In fact, my metabolism is a bit screwed up from years of VLC eating on a regular basis, with just occasional binges that weren't even much in the way of a binge but would leave my stomach hurting from eating what was a lot of food for me. I can't tell you how many times I would go off on day-long excursions with friends, many of who have always been slim (and none who exercise regularly) and they would eat 2-3x what I could eat during the day. They would say things to me like "why don't you just eat what you normally eat?" thinking I was purposely eating less in front of them. Not so. They might be hungry for dinner on the way home when I was still stuffed, sometimes very uncomfortably so, from lunch. And, quite often, my lunch was smaller than what they ate, both in quantity of food and in caloric content. Yeah, it was very discouraging.

It wasn't until I embraced lower-carb eating that the weight started coming off. Without hunger, either. And I'm now working on raising my net calorie goals to repair my metabolism. It's working and I'm thrilled. However, I still have a hard time eating more and find that many times the only way I can eat enough to get in my calories is to eat calorie-dense treats. Since I zig-zag, this means that I must eat things like pizza, pasta, etc., at least once or twice a week just to get those calories up if I've eaten lower for a few days in a row. I just can't eat a lot of food at one time or enough calories in one day without adding in those types of foods. I'm not complaining. It's wonderful to enjoy splurge-food and still lose weight.

But I still can't eat those types of calorie-dense, higher-carb foods on a regular basis or I feel like crap. Just crap. And I have time time it around exercise to alleviate those crappy-feeling symptoms.

Anyway, yes, some of us have had friends, family, doctors, dietitians, etc., tell us for years that we must be closet gluttons when that was far from the truth.

RunLiftEat

This thread has made my magic nose goblins commit suicide.

Eats_With_A_Fist_Returns

Here's the problem with throwing out anecdotal evidence in favor of science: While good science, done well is valid, what works well for one person doesn't always work well for another. Right now I am eating carbs, grains, etc. because the area I live in, combined with my financial situation makes it cheaper than following the paleo lifestyle. But for about a year I followed the Primal Blueprint way of eating (paleo based) and I felt better than I ever have, I lost a bunch of weight and gained muscle. Even my hair and skin looked and felt healthier. Should my economic situation improve, am I supposed to reject what works well for me because science says another way is better?

It seems to me that the best way for everyone is to be willing to put in the time researching and trying different things, and settle for what works best for them regardless of which way the evidence skews towards either side. Additionally, it doesn't seem beneficial to constantly chuck rocks at people on the other side of the mountain.