Bye Bye Death Penalty
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We all should have learned it by kindergarten: two wrongs don't make a right. It works for big stuff too.
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Two wrongs don't make a right but every human being and animal alike uses some form of punishment. Not saying I would wanna be the one to carry out the action of a death penalty but I do believe that prisoners have a pretty easy life in prison for the most part(excluding the prison violence...I kow it can get pretty bad in some prisons) also, yes, there are many that have been wrongly accused but I blame that totally on the judicial system and the ability of lawyers to totally twist the truth around. Of course NO one can fully say that they can judge someone as guilty beyond a reason of doubt. ****, I can't even decide what's for dinner without some doubt that I should have done something different. They play on your basic emotions that MAYBE something was not right or maybe the person really is a decent person. That's why I say make prison a living hell, make it an actual punishment to go to prison. Don't give them an education and access to the internet and a tv. Lock them in a tiny cage and make them grow their own food, make their own clothes, clean up after themselves etc......make them work their butt off and be worried that ther might not be another meal....oh but that is cruel and unusal punishment..my *kitten* it should be cruel punishment otherwise it is NOT a punishment. When you punish your child are they asking you to do it again?? No way, you make sure it is something that will make their life unpleasant for a short time depending on the behavior that is how you determine the severity of the punishment.
you wouldn't send your 16 year old to the time out corner for punching another kid at school...first f all they wuld be expelled and you would probably take their phone, laptop, car away for at least a week...UNPLEASANT..not fun totally sucks...so why in the heck do we send an accused murder "to his room" so to speak, allow him fitness time, the opportunity to educate themself, the option to watch tv, and socialize with other prisoners? Sounds like a vacation to me. Sure we send him to his room for 15 years but really we just follow the whole "out of sight out of mind" theory. No state should have a DOT road patch crew...it should all be done by the states prisoners...they should be out ther manually repairing the roads. All those sections of grass that need mowed along the interstates.....inmates mowing with a push mower. They decide to get crazy and mow one another over so be it. Just saying!0 -
@ marll <sigh> I'm not tryin to make u look silly..... But my blue crack was about your profile pic. If you have no profile pic on Mfp you are usually called a little blue person. See the color of the little man in the avatar is BLUE!! ( leaves this thread forever and has a better understanding of how a moron like Rush Limbaugh has 3m listeners)0
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I don't have a problem with abolishing the death penalty, although doing so is not at the top of my priority list. My reasons against the death penalty are a combination of what I consider the practical and the personal.
1. The death penalty does not work as a deterrent--never has in any society and it never will.
2. There is no way to administer the death penalty that is 100% error-free. This is not a situation where 90%, 95% or even 99% accuracy is good enough. If taking a human life for unjustified reasons is such a heinous act that it deserves the death penalty, then there is NO circumstance in which mistakenly executing someone can be allowable. Ever. Especially since there is no practical justification for the death penalty.
3. I respect that it is possible that those who support the death penalty can do so for sincere reasons, even though I know few death penalty supporters that I respect.
4. I think it is important for society to model the behaviors that are expected in others. I think it sends a conflicting message to say that taking a human life is a horrible act and then justify society's taking of a human life. Instead of reaching for a higher level of moral behavior, we give in to our more base emotions, and I think that demeans our culture (I fully admit that this is a personal opinion, not supported by any data whatsoever).
5. By supporting the death penalty, we ally ourselves morally more with countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran, China, Cuba, the Sudan, etc. Is that really the moral standard we want to set for the US? Shouldn't we aspire to more?
I would also like to make it clear that being against the death penalty has NOTHING to do with being "soft on crime" or not recognizing the seriousness of the crime. That is a pernicious lie that seems to come up in every death penalty discussion.0 -
With respect, that argument is flawed in many ways. I'm not going to pretend to understand the US prison system, but I understand Canada's to a limited extent. First off, extremely violent offenders (we call them dangerous offenders who can be jailed indefinitely) are housed in separate prisons entirely with specific systems to keep them from killing everything in sight. Second, not all killers are by necessity "extremely violent". Third, many extremely violent people do not commit murder, commit other crimes and are jailed for them, yet seem to manage not to kill their cellmates. I have more, but I'm going to stop there because I think I've made my point that this is complex and there are systems in prisons to keep inmates from killing other inmates.
And how about the argument that keeping extremely violent offenders imprisoned for life poses a direct and immediate threat to other inmates jailed alongside them?? If there's no greater punishment over life without possibility, you become untouchable, and can do, frankly, whatever you want.
I interpret your untouchable argument to mean that already jailed for life inmates would kill other inmates because there was no greater punishment. That's really straying from the issue itself and mixing contexts, so I'm not going to respond to that point as I don't think the sub-society within a prison is the concern here, we're looking at society at large.
The reason death row inmates are so costly is because they're housed seperately and have added security.
People on death row are exclusively violent offenders (someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's the case everywhere in the U.S.)
Your point about violent offenders being jailed is precisely my point, they have the potential for a higher punishment.
Life without the possibility absolutely has everything to do with the argument at hand, because if the accused isn't executed that's the alternative. Violent offenders imprisoned for life without the possibility of parole are an extreme threat to other inmates. Knowingly exposing other inmates to that kind of threat, is in and of itself, inhumane, regardless of if they are a 'sub-society' or not.0 -
We all should have learned it by kindergarten: two wrongs don't make a right. It works for big stuff too.
You are so right. We should just have murderers sit in the corner!!!0 -
Another thing: no one is born a killer. Killers are a product of society, then society kills them and calls it justice. We might do well to look at societies with low murder statistics and ask why ours produces so many more killers, rather than calling to just kill them all.0
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I'm an "eye for an eye" kind of person but at the least, I think public hanging should be the death penalty. Lethal injection is too quick and not painful enough.
I don't have a problem with the way things were handled long ago. When a woman was beat by a man, you could easily find 10 men to kick his *kitten*. Someone hurt a kid, the dad would probably take care of it himself. Now, criminals get some many rights and so much protection, tv's in jail, video games. It's almost like a strcit but free vacation for some of them.
THIS 100% ^^ Well said.:drinker:
Because there was definitely no injustice back then.
sure thre was injustice BUT most people thought about what they were about to do. I can promise you people look at mecompletely different when they realize that yes, I own a gun and YES, I enjoy shooting it an NO I am not afraid to use it to defend my self and I also have every intention of teaching all three of my daughters how to use it...in fact my nine year old is a better shot than me. Do you think she will EVER have a boy try to be forceful with her.....heck no. They aren't gonna mess with a girl whose entire family knows how to use a gun. They are gonna be real nice to her. Not saying it won't happen but it is less likely to happen to her because if it does she will be prepared and ready to defend herself. Yes, we do plan on making it very clear that we are a family that owns and uses our guns regularly. You come to my door unannounced and I don't know you, there is a good chance I am holding a loaded gun when I answer the door.....for my own protection( I live in the middle of nowhere so this is a neccesary precaution for a stay-at-home mom, no police would ever get here before I would be long dead and yes, we have door-to-door people come all the way out here at least a few times a year and it scares the crap out of me). So, do you think many people in my town are going to try anythng funny with me??? Most likely they won't. I'm not dumb enough to think that random criminal acts don't happen but statistically speaking most violent crimes against women are not random acts...it is almost always someone they knew.0 -
I had stated previously that I was for closing loopholes, but why the push for doing it behind the courthouse? Those 5 years are what costs real money, not the piddance of the gas to get back to the jail, or the time for the accused's loved ones to say goodbye and find their own closure.Look, this is how I'd run it:
You commit murder (or other horrible crime) and are put on trial. You are convicted and sentenced to death.
You now have 3 appeals available to you, that should be carried out and tried in no more than 5 years.
You loose all your appeals in court.
You are taken to a chamber behind the courthouse and an executioner blindfolds you and and then placed the barrel of a .45 to the back of your skull. 1 shot and it's over. Justice served.
This is closure for those that are victims.
A) I'm not sure I can believe you here (nothing to do with you personally) but how could you possibly stand beside when you believe a loved one is being executed unjustly?And to your question, if I had a family member tied up in this system, it would be hard, it would be an emotional roller coaster, but if they are convicted and executed, I would stand by that ruling. Legislating to the minority of people that may be innocent is a sure fire way for the whole system to unravel.
Some pretty smart people disagree with you. They wrote the U.S. constitution.
agreed0 -
We all should have learned it by kindergarten: two wrongs don't make a right. It works for big stuff too.
You are so right. We should just have murderers sit in the corner!!!
Wow, an elementary wisecrack really makes your point. I'm convinced, let's totally kill them all.0 -
I'm in the UK, death penalty always makes me think of back in the "olden days" when we used to chop peoples heads off for their religion etc, crime seems to be manageable here without the death penalty, if somebody does something particularly horrible then they will be put away for life with the judges recomendation that they never be released. Seems to work. I always think of the death penalty in a small group of laws including euthanasia and prostitution that would cause too much uproar to be changed and too much of a backlash on the party that enforced it so I am suprised that a state has abolished it!
I think the death penalty could be a good deterrant but only should be used if there is DNA evidence proving guilt or something. But in my lifetime its never been legal so I think that I wont really know what its like unless I've lived somewhere where it is legal.0 -
How can someone convicted of murder have the right to live, when the victim had their right taken away?0
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Another thing: no one is born a killer. Killers are a product of society, then society kills them and calls it justice. We might do well to look at societies with low murder statistics and ask why ours produces so many more killers, rather than calling to just kill them all.
That is debatable. I think murder can be about more than just society. At some point, it actually is the person's fault, and not just their circumstance.
Also Singapore has the death penalty, and they have extremely low crime rates (and rediculously harsh penalties). That's a blanket statement that grossly oversimplifies the situation.0 -
We all should have learned it by kindergarten: two wrongs don't make a right. It works for big stuff too.
You are so right. We should just have murderers sit in the corner!!!
Wow, an elementary wisecrack really makes your point. I'm convinced, let's totally kill them all.
Ouch, my feeling are hurt.
Proud to live in a death penalty state!!!0 -
The reason death row inmates are so costly is because they're housed seperately and have added security.
People on death row are exclusively violent offenders (someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's the case everywhere in the U.S.)
Your point about violent offenders being jailed is precisely my point, they have the potential for a higher punishment.
Life without the possibility absolutely has everything to do with the argument at hand, because if the accused isn't executed that's the alternative. Violent offenders imprisoned for life without the possibility of parole are an extreme threat to other inmates. Knowingly exposing other inmates to that kind of threat, is in and of itself, inhumane, regardless of if they are a 'sub-society' or not.
I see what you're saying, but I disagree with the rationale. Violent offenders imprisoned for life without parole should be kept in isolation units if they are a risk to other inmates, which to my understanding is what happens. Also, prison isn't a nice place, nor should it be. It IS potentially violent, but not everyone violent there needs to be there for murder to hurt other inmates, so in my opinion, that argument for keeping the death penalty becomes moot. Arguing for the death penalty based on protecting other convicts is a logical fallacy.0 -
Because there was definitely no injustice back then.
sure thre was injustice BUT most people thought about what they were about to do. I can promise you people look at mecompletely different when they realize that yes, I own a gun and YES, I enjoy shooting it an NO I am not afraid to use it to defend my self and I also have every intention of teaching all three of my daughters how to use it...in fact my nine year old is a better shot than me. Do you think she will EVER have a boy try to be forceful with her.....heck no. They aren't gonna mess with a girl whose entire family knows how to use a gun. They are gonna be real nice to her. Not saying it won't happen but it is less likely to happen to her because if it does she will be prepared and ready to defend herself. Yes, we do plan on making it very clear that we are a family that owns and uses our guns regularly. You come to my door unannounced and I don't know you, there is a good chance I am holding a loaded gun when I answer the door.....for my own protection( I live in the middle of nowhere so this is a neccesary precaution for a stay-at-home mom, no police would ever get here before I would be long dead and yes, we have door-to-door people come all the way out here at least a few times a year and it scares the crap out of me).
You're changing the subject. I am all for gun ownership, that wasn't what I was arguing against.
What I was against was the idea that somehow, back in the old days, justice was handled better. That getting a gang of drunk bar buddies together to curb stomp someone who wronged your sister was somehow better than a tribunal process. That a father's vigilante justice was better than the police. That jails today are a vacation and should instead be fashioned after older, crueler models (that worked fantastically well I might add).0 -
This will probably be an unpopular opinion - but it amazes me that there are any states in the US that still have the death penalty. It seems medieval to me.
(From Britain)
I agree with you I live in Canada and we do not have it nor do I believe that anyone has the right to decided that, in the end God will deal with all of us, he is the only one that should be aloud to make that decision.0 -
i live in maryland, where we do have the death penalty, but i'm against it. i used to be for it until i did a school project about it and found that it doesn't actually solve anything, makes crime rates higher, deprives families of justice while they have to wait out the mandatory appeals, and in some states equals out to several million dollars per execution, many times more than the cost of keeping people imprisoned for life. oh, and, like, 1 in 10 sentenced to death row ends up having their sentence overturned. the death penalty doesn't seem worth it, to me, anymore.0
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If there is even one innocent person being put to death, we cannot ethically have a death penalty. And since there have been multiple cases of people being wrongly convicted (and later exonerated by DNA evidence, etc.) it is obvious that we should not have a death penalty.0
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I live in Texas. It'll be a cold day in hell before the death penalty is overturned here, but I get where you are coming from. I'm a supporter of the death penalty (though I think it should be exercised with a little more caution than it is in Texas).0
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We all should have learned it by kindergarten: two wrongs don't make a right. It works for big stuff too.
You are so right. We should just have murderers sit in the corner!!!
isn't that what prison is?0 -
I'm Canadian also, and I do agree that if the person is 100% guilty, some people are just evil and deserve to die. For example, there's a murder trial going on in London, ON right now of a man who sexually assaulted and killed a little girl. The most he'll get is 25 years (that's the harshest penalty in Canada), probably eligible for parole after half of that. THAT is sad.
I live in Canada as well....a while back a murder took place on the street next too mine....a guy stabbed his best friend to death. He was sentenced to 25 years. With that sentence, if he got good behaviour he was allowed to spend weekends at an onsite cottage with his girlfriend eating steak dinners and the whole nine yards,:indifferent:
During the trial he showed no sign of remorse as well as clearly stated he didn't regrett what he did and the media made it into a sob story about how he was passed from foster home to foster home. What about the kids who are now fatherless because this man just killed their daddy???
He was released after serving 10 years.:grumble:
Are system is a joke if you ask me0 -
We all should have learned it by kindergarten: two wrongs don't make a right. It works for big stuff too.
You are so right. We should just have murderers sit in the corner!!!
isn't that what prison is?
Exactly! Repeating a punishment that didn't work when they were 5, but at a HUGE expense to the taxpayers.0 -
Another thing: no one is born a killer. Killers are a product of society, then society kills them and calls it justice. We might do well to look at societies with low murder statistics and ask why ours produces so many more killers, rather than calling to just kill them all.
That is debatable. I think murder can be about more than just society. At some point, it actually is the person's fault, and not just their circumstance.
Also Singapore has the death penalty, and they have extremely low crime rates (and rediculously harsh penalties). That's a blanket statement that grossly oversimplifies the situation.
The example of Singapore is a valid argument, and I agree that my remark could be construed as an oversimplified blanket statement, though that's not how I meant it. With respect to that, a country like Singapore wasn't exactly what I was thinking of. I was thinking more of examples such as Sweden where murder rates are very low.
I agree that the person is the one in ultimate control of their actions, of course. But what exactly is a person? I think we're shaped through our environment, in addition to being born with inherent personality traits. Simplified, when you live in a society that glorifies violence, how can we expect not to turn out killers? I'm by no means justifying people killing or saying society directly causes it thus should condone it. But I am saying it's much more complicated than simple black and white.0 -
I don't even kill bugs.
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."0 -
I see what you're saying, but I disagree with the rationale. Violent offenders imprisoned for life without parole should be kept in isolation units if they are a risk to other inmates, which to my understanding is what happens. Also, prison isn't a nice place, nor should it be. It IS potentially violent, but not everyone violent there needs to be there for murder to hurt other inmates, so in my opinion, that argument for keeping the death penalty becomes moot. Arguing for the death penalty based on protecting other convicts is a logical fallacy.
I think this will have to be an agree to disagree sort of thing. The fact is that today lifers do mingle with genpop in prison. It's restricted somewhat, but we can't really afford for them not to (it's also cruel and unusual, to my understanding, to keep someone in 24 hour lockdown forever). An argument could be made for stricter separation, but I don't think it's feasible to completely separate the two. Even death row inmates have interactions with genpop.
I do strongly disagree that my argument is a logical fallacy. When we convict a criminal, the state takes responsibility for that person. In sentencing them to prison, we are responsible for their safety and well-being. That's why we have to do maintenance repairs in prisons, and staff medical professionals, etc. I believe mingling violent offenders with life sentences with genpop, when studies have shown those offenders are more likely to terrorize other inmates, undermines the state's responsibility to keep those other inmates safe. Prisons are already a dangerous enough place, this makes it more so. There's only so much you can do to protect inmates in prison, but if you're a poor 19 year old kid who stole a benz and took it for a joy ride, what happens if the serial killer sitting next to you at lunch has a bad day?0 -
Another thing: no one is born a killer. Killers are a product of society, then society kills them and calls it justice. We might do well to look at societies with low murder statistics and ask why ours produces so many more killers, rather than calling to just kill them all.
That is debatable. I think murder can be about more than just society. At some point, it actually is the person's fault, and not just their circumstance.
Also Singapore has the death penalty, and they have extremely low crime rates (and rediculously harsh penalties). That's a blanket statement that grossly oversimplifies the situation.
Agree with the poster in which you are quoting. Every single person IS a product of their genetics and their environment. The primary reason more minorities are in prison is because they grow up in worse environments. Whether its their fault or not isn't really the point. If they committed the crime and it can be proven they did it, then they need to be isolated from society because they are likely to repeat the crime, and we need to set an example of them to deter others as best we can.
But living in a society where there is a lot of violent crime is a failure of that society. So killing the individuals who are a product of a society that failed them isn't really what I call justice.0 -
The example of Singapore is a valid argument, and I agree that my remark could be construed as an oversimplified blanket statement, though that's not how I meant it. With respect to that, a country like Singapore wasn't exactly what I was thinking of. I was thinking more of examples such as Sweden where murder rates are very low.
I agree that the person is the one in ultimate control of their actions, of course. But what exactly is a person? I think we're shaped through our environment, in addition to being born with inherent personality traits. Simplified, when you live in a society that glorifies violence, how can we expect not to turn out killers? I'm by no means justifying people killing or saying society directly causes it thus should condone it. But I am saying it's much more complicated than simple black and white.
With that clarification, I agree that it is extremely complicated. I don't know enough about Sweden's legal system to comment. I think the root causes, glorification of violence, socioeconomic disparities, not getting enough hugs as a kid (kidding), run deep. I do agree that there are societal forces that make lives difficult and can foster an atmosphere where violent crime is more likely, but I am viscerally against the 'don't blame me, blame society' mentality (not saying that's what you said, more reacting against it in my response to you).0 -
What if they did those horrible things to your child or your family member? Are you okay with them living off your tax dollars for the rest of their lives?????0
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Another thing: no one is born a killer. Killers are a product of society, then society kills them and calls it justice. We might do well to look at societies with low murder statistics and ask why ours produces so many more killers, rather than calling to just kill them all.
That is debatable. I think murder can be about more than just society. At some point, it actually is the person's fault, and not just their circumstance.
Also Singapore has the death penalty, and they have extremely low crime rates (and rediculously harsh penalties). That's a blanket statement that grossly oversimplifies the situation.
Agree with the poster in which you are quoting. Every single person IS a product of their genetics and their environment. The primary reason more minorities are in prison is because they grow up in worse environments. Whether its their fault or not isn't really the point. If they committed the crime and it can be proven they did it, then they need to be isolated from society because they are likely to repeat the crime, and we need to set an example of them to deter others as best we can.
But living in a society where there is a lot of violent crime is a failure of that society. So killing the individuals who are a product of a society that failed them isn't really what I call justice.
To add to it, the death penalty teaches society that killing is a valid punishment.0 -
Agree with the poster in which you are quoting. Every single person IS a product of their genetics and their environment. The primary reason more minorities are in prison is because they grow up in worse environments. Whether its their fault or not isn't really the point. If they committed the crime and it can be proven they did it, then they need to be isolated from society because they are likely to repeat the crime, and we need to set an example of them to deter others as best we can.
But living in a society where there is a lot of violent crime is a failure of that society. So killing the individuals who are a product of a society that failed them isn't really what I call justice.
A fair point, but again, some people view capital punishment not as justice per se, but as protection of society (the ultimate isolation from society, so to speak). I also don't think the 'make an example of them' philosophy works. Punishment as a deterrent has a pretty shaky success rate, hence so many repeat offenders.0
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