Building Muscle vs. Losing Weight
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You can and will build muscle while in deficit. Even better, the more muscle you build, the higher you metabolism will be, because lean muscle burns more calories than fat.
This statement is deceptive and frustrating to someone like me. This implies that any muscle growth = faster metabolism = fat flying off of you. It does not happen like that...0 -
I just got into an arguement with someone today about this very thing. I have gained muscle and I have lost weight. Everybody is different. My legs are bigger. My arms and back are much more defined. My stomach is flattened out. My hips and stomach are smaller but my legs are bigger. My pants fit really badly right now. Too small in some places and too big in others. I like having muscletone so this really doesn't bother me. I just have to find pants that are cut differently. I still have about 5 more pounds to lose. I'm going to continue to eat at a deficit and alternate cardio one day with strength training the next until my weight is where I want it, then I will up my calories to maintain. I feel great.
Have you verified this with a body caliper? What you describe sounds like your body composition has changed. That's not the same as gaining muscle.
Look I now have very nice quads. I am not imagining it. I do not need to verify that they are indeed there. I've actually worked quite hard for them. You can verify whatever you wish with whom or whatever you wish. I will continue to have great results doing what I am doing. I am not going to justify my successes with men on here who keep telling me I am mistaken. You do what works for you and I will do what works for me. I will not stop sharing my successes because you can't wrap your head around it. My mirror, my scale, my measuring tape, and my clothes are telling me everything I need to know about my successes and/or faillures.
Miss, no one's saying you haven't had success, or haven't improved your body.
We're telling you you haven't gained any muscle. Just because you can't (or rather, aren't willing to...I'm 100% sure you're capable of it) grasp the difference, is no reason for us to stop correcting it when you post up the inaccurate information you've been posting.
Can you see the difference?0 -
I just got into an arguement with someone today about this very thing. I have gained muscle and I have lost weight. Everybody is different. My legs are bigger. My arms and back are much more defined. My stomach is flattened out. My hips and stomach are smaller but my legs are bigger. My pants fit really badly right now. Too small in some places and too big in others. I like having muscletone so this really doesn't bother me. I just have to find pants that are cut differently. I still have about 5 more pounds to lose. I'm going to continue to eat at a deficit and alternate cardio one day with strength training the next until my weight is where I want it, then I will up my calories to maintain. I feel great.
Have you verified this with a body caliper? What you describe sounds like your body composition has changed. That's not the same as gaining muscle.
Look I now have very nice quads. I am not imagining it. I do not need to verify that they are indeed there. I've actually worked quite hard for them. You can verify whatever you wish with whom or whatever you wish. I will continue to have great results doing what I am doing. I am not going to justify my successes with men on here who keep telling me I am mistaken. You do what works for you and I will do what works for me. I will not stop sharing my successes because you can't wrap your head around it. My mirror, my scale, my measuring tape, and my clothes are telling me everything I need to know about my successes and/or faillures.
What about your DEXA scan? That is really the only thing that can tell you if you have actually gained muscle.
BTW: I am sure you have great legs - I am absolutely not trying to take that or all the hard work away - congrats on that.0 -
You can strengthen muscle tissue while in a calorie deficit if your macros are right. However you cannot build muscle MASS. Not quite the same thing. I would say that once you get within 15-20 lbs of your goal weight if you want to focus more on muscle building that's the ideal way to go. Building muscle is harder once you're totally lean (oddly enough).0
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I'm just as confused as you are. Everyone has their own opinions and none of it makes sense to me... ugh0
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Alas, there really is a lot of crap in the forums from people who don't really know what they are talking about.
You can and will build muscle while in deficit. Even better, the more muscle you build, the higher you metabolism will be, because lean muscle burns more calories than fat.
Except that it doesn't burn *that* much more. Muscle burns roughly 6 calories per pound per day while fat burns 2. So even if you lost 20 lbs of fat and gained 20 lbs of muscle, you're looking at a net increase of 80 calories per day, or roughly one Oreo cookie.
The most common estimates I've seen on the interwebz for gaining actual muscle mass is 0.25-0.5 lbs/week. So to add 20 lbs of muscle you're looking at 8 months minimum, and that's assuming you're doing everything perfectly.
And nobody is building 20 lbs of muscle by eating at a calorie deficit.0 -
Alas, there really is a lot of crap in the forums from people who don't really know what they are talking about.
You can and will build muscle while in deficit. Even better, the more muscle you build, the higher you metabolism will be, because lean muscle burns more calories than fat.
Except that it doesn't burn *that* much more. Muscle burns roughly 6 calories per pound per day while fat burns 2. So even if you lost 20 lbs of fat and gained 20 lbs of muscle, you're looking at a net increase of 80 calories per day, or roughly one Oreo cookie.
The most common estimates I've seen on the interwebz for gaining actual muscle mass is 0.25-0.5 lbs/week. So to add 20 lbs of muscle you're looking at 8 months minimum, and that's assuming you're doing everything perfectly.
And nobody is building 20 lbs of muscle by eating at a calorie deficit.
And those numbers are for guys, not women who have siginifcantly less testosterone than men and as such cannot build muscle as quickly.0 -
Awesome. It's just something that I keep seeing repeated on here. Again and again and again. :-P
I haven't figured out how to reset my macros, but I do tend to be consistently over in my protein... especially on weight training days.
Alas, there really is a lot of crap in the forums from people who don't really know what they are talking about.
You can and will build muscle while in deficit. Even better, the more muscle you build, the higher you metabolism will be, because lean muscle burns more calories than fat.
Just stick with the program. Log you calories. Stay just under the limit every day. Exercise. You WILL lose weight.
Really? Would you care to explain how the human body can magically grow NEW tissue while you aren't eating enough to sustain the current amount of tissue you have? Do you also believe that if you are holding 10 blocks in your hand, you can build a tower 12 blocks high without going and picking up 2 more blocks from somewhere? How exactly do you think the human body can magically create new tissue out of thin air? Just think about it logically for a few minutes...0 -
Do you also believe that if you are holding 10 blocks in your hand, you can build a tower 12 blocks high without going and picking up 2 more blocks from somewhere?
Amen sir...you win the internet with that one.0 -
I've just come to the conclusion that the entire argument of whether your are 'building muscle or just losing fat' is just really irrelevant to 99% of the people who ask about it. What do most people really want to know when they ask this question? I believe that most people's question can be translated to:
Can I become more toned by heavy lifting as I lose body fat?
Yes, you can.
Can you get stronger by heavy lifting on a calorie deficit?
Yes, you can.
Will heavy lifting help preserve my muscle on a calorie deficit?
Yes, it will.
Can heavy lifting be a good alternative to cardio while losing weight?
Yes, it can be.
I would assume that covers most of the people who ask the question about gaining muscle on a deficit.0 -
I didn't read the whole thread, but when you eat at a surplus to put on muscle, you will put on fat as well, so for that reason it is recommended that you get pretty lean first. http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/general-philosophies-of-muscle-mass-gain.html
However, just because you can't build muscle in a deficit doesn't mean you shouldn't still strength train. You need to to provide enough stimulus to maintain the muscle you do have while in your deficit.
Good luck!
Oh, also, "relatively lean" is somewhere around or under 20% body fat. While all methods for at home measurement have a margin of error, calipers are probably the best! And it will probably be more towards the middle or bottom of the BMI range, depending on how much muscle mass you have. I, personally, cannot realistically get to a BMI of 22, due to my muscle mass... so it is completely possible that you are in a similar position and have too much muscle already for most of the "normal" BMI range.0 -
This was already discussed in a previous forum. But I'll give you a recap. Take me for example when i started MFP, 50% bodyfat, 210 pounds LBM... Lets say I eat to support 40% body fat. Which for example lets just say 4,000 calories. What happens when i eat 3,000 calories and lift intensely? Yet my LBM has a metabolic rate lets say of 2,000... Where does the extra 1000 calories go?
Lets put it a different way. Your TDEE is 4,000. You eat 3,000. Where does the extra 1,000 calories come from? Simple, stored energy in LBM and/or Body Fat. In order to build muscle at the same time, that would take additional energy above and beyond your TDEE which would further widen the deficit and increase the amount of stored energy needed. In any large amount, I hope it becomes obvious that this would quickly become an absurdly large deficit (but is why, in cases of massive obesity, some initial muscle gain is feasible).0 -
I've just come to the conclusion that the entire argument of whether your are 'building muscle or just losing fat' is just really irrelevant to 99% of the people who ask about it. What do most people really want to know when they ask this question? I believe that most people's question can be translated to:
Can I become more toned by heavy lifting as I lose body fat?
Yes, you can.
Can you get stronger by heavy lifting on a calorie deficit?
Yes, you can.
Will heavy lifting help preserve my muscle on a calorie deficit?
Yes, it will.
Can heavy lifting be a good alternative to cardio while losing weight?
Yes, it can be.
I would assume that covers most of the people who ask the question about gaining muscle on a deficit.
Thank you...thank you...thank you. You summed it up perfectly.
I just realized this as well and was looking for a good way to say it. When most people, usually women, say they want to build muscle, so many people are quick to jump on the "you can't build muscle in a deficit" train, when what they really need to say is " Are you sure you want to build muscle, or just look more toned?" I am willing to bet that at least 75% of the women who post on these threads (including myself) have no desire to increase their measurements.0 -
I've just come to the conclusion that the entire argument of whether your are 'building muscle or just losing fat' is just really irrelevant to 99% of the people who ask about it. What do most people really want to know when they ask this question? I believe that most people's question can be translated to:
Can I become more toned by heavy lifting as I lose body fat?
Yes, you can.
Can you get stronger by heavy lifting on a calorie deficit?
Yes, you can.
Will heavy lifting help preserve my muscle on a calorie deficit?
Yes, it will.
Can heavy lifting be a good alternative to cardio while losing weight?
Yes, it can be.
I would assume that covers most of the people who ask the question about gaining muscle on a deficit.
THIS!! Between the pics that crisanderson posted and what you said I would think women mean "build muscle" as far as aesthetically change the way their body looks. Or the dreaded word "tone"..lol. At least that is what I am looking for and if I can eat below my TDEE and reduce the fat in my body and look better/leaner and more muscular by lifting heavy that is what I am looking for.0 -
I've just come to the conclusion that the entire argument of whether your are 'building muscle or just losing fat' is just really irrelevant to 99% of the people who ask about it. What do most people really want to know when they ask this question? I believe that most people's question can be translated to:
Can I become more toned by heavy lifting as I lose body fat?
Yes, you can.
Can you get stronger by heavy lifting on a calorie deficit?
Yes, you can.
Will heavy lifting help preserve my muscle on a calorie deficit?
Yes, it will.
Can heavy lifting be a good alternative to cardio while losing weight?
Yes, it can be.
I would assume that covers most of the people who ask the question about gaining muscle on a deficit.
Thank you!0 -
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I agree with you for the most part. As you probably know heavier people can get away with a larger deficit. What is TDEE? "TOTAL" Daily Energy Expenditure. It's built up of little different metabolism's if you will call it. BMR, RMR, Exercise, all add up to TDEE.
You don't need to feed the fat. Another example is... well my original goal was to add some muscle mass. I am about 210LBM right now, I wanted to get up to 220LBM. I think i calculated if i was at 210 with 8% bodyfat I'd weigh 230 or something like that. I really don't remember the exact number. If I have 210LBM and I ate enough calories for someone who is 235lbs. Yet I weigh 295 or so. Assuming i lift, what would happen? Depends on my training. How would i look different if i just did cardio all day compared to resistance training? Obviously the result would be a different type of physique. Why, what changed?
ETA: Now people are changing their story. They're saying "it's possible for beginner for only 6 months" or "it's newbie gains" There is no consistency in this. If you're changing your story, you're not correct the first time or the second time.
I don't think you were saying this, but I never said anything about a 6 month window. Just stating that up front.
I disagree with your claim that you don't need to feed the fat. Fat mass requires calories for maintenance just like any other part of your body. It does have an upkeep cost that gets calculated into your TDEE.
If your emphasis on total for TDEE was to highlight that muscle growth would be included then that would make sense. I was starting with the perspective of your TDEE without muscle growth is X, with muscle growth it's X+the calories required to form new tissue. If you keep doing that while keeping intake constant, that gets to be a larger and larger deficit that you need to account for.
The overabundance of stored energy in fat for obese folks to account for the larger deficit would make it easier for me to reconcile gaining muscle on a deficit. But even then I don't think it would be in vast quantities. If it takes ~3500 calories burned to lose one pound of fat, how many calories does it take to build 1 pound of muscle? That's a huge disparity of energy that needs to be accounted for.
For newbies or athletes returning from a long hiatus I think a lot of it has to do with the extraordinary new stresses being placed on the individual. I see gains in that regard as something that unavoidable due to massive change in strain on ones muscles. For someone that is exercising regularly (even at high intensity levels) they cannot compare to that delta in strain. Again muscle gains will be extremely limited in this case as well.
I try to K.I.S.S. as much as possible with this stuff or it quickly gets overly confusing. That's how I've reconciled it in my head at least.0 -
I am heavy lifting now, just started my second week. A calculator online said that my TDEE is 2965 and my BMR is 1913 and my RMR is 1895. I eat between 1800 and 2200 calories a day. I lost 3 pounds last week, but I've also been drinking alot more water. I'm having trouble getting over 160 grams of protein, and it seems like my sugars always go over, but fat and carbs are in check. I'm just worried that I am eating too much to lose weight. My diet is definitely a lot better, very clean...any opinions??0
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I am heavy lifting now, just started my second week. A calculator online said that my TDEE is 2965 and my BMR is 1913 and my RMR is 1895. I eat between 1800 and 2200 calories a day. I lost 3 pounds last week, but I've also been drinking alot more water. I'm having trouble getting over 160 grams of protein, and it seems like my sugars always go over, but fat and carbs are in check. I'm just worried that I am eating too much to lose weight. My diet is definitely a lot better, very clean...any opinions??
I can't see your diary which makes it hard to calculate, but a few points that I look at when I'm having issues:
1) Have you been doing it long enough? 2 weeks typically isn't enough to really get a good gauge on how things are going. If after 2 months you're still having problems then you should reassess
2) Have you been making accurate enough estimates? One of the biggest downfalls for people trying to lose weight by counting calories, in my opinion, is that they underestimate calorie intake and overestimate calorie expenditure. Anything you can do to improve your accuracy (food scale, double check your nutritional info, etc) would be time well invested.
3) Are your assumptions accurate enough? The online calculation of your TDEE is an excellent start, but it's just an estimate. Your TDEE, in all likelihood, is not exactly 2965. It's probably pretty close, but figuring out where your at will take time and some tweaking of your numbers to confirm.
4) Are you getting adequate macronutrients? You said you had trouble hitting your protein goals, but fat and carbs are in check. What are your targets for them? Are they aligned with your goals? Confirming this (and hitting your protein target of course) can go a long way towards future success.
Good luck0 -
Your LBM and Body fat don't have separate metabolic rates, your entire body has one metabolic rate. You can't pick and choose what tissue gets supported by the calories you eat, and which tissues don't. Not to mention, body fat is a major endocrine organ, and has a lot more responsibilities for human survival than muscle does, which makes body fat a higher priority when it comes to a calorie deficit. Your body will not build muscle in a calorie deficit at the expense of burning more fat tissue, that goes completely against the evolution of human biology.Awesome. It's just something that I keep seeing repeated on here. Again and again and again. :-P
I haven't figured out how to reset my macros, but I do tend to be consistently over in my protein... especially on weight training days.
Alas, there really is a lot of crap in the forums from people who don't really know what they are talking about.
You can and will build muscle while in deficit. Even better, the more muscle you build, the higher you metabolism will be, because lean muscle burns more calories than fat.
Just stick with the program. Log you calories. Stay just under the limit every day. Exercise. You WILL lose weight.
Really? Would you care to explain how the human body can magically grow NEW tissue while you aren't eating enough to sustain the current amount of tissue you have? Do you also believe that if you are holding 10 blocks in your hand, you can build a tower 12 blocks high without going and picking up 2 more blocks from somewhere? How exactly do you think the human body can magically create new tissue out of thin air? Just think about it logically for a few minutes...
Who said it's magically out of thin air? The key is "which tissue are you sustaining, fat or muscle?
This was already discussed in a previous forum. But I'll give you a recap. Take me for example when i started MFP, 50% bodyfat, 210 pounds LBM... Lets say I eat to support 40% body fat. Which for example lets just say 4,000 calories. What happens when i eat 3,000 calories and lift intensely? Yet my LBM has a metabolic rate lets say of 2,000... Where does the extra 1000 calories go?0
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