Building Muscle vs. Losing Weight
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Bump to read later. Based on my personal experience I don't think I really gained any "new muscle" when I first began strength training; however, I could see more muscle definition because I was losing body fat. The muscle was there...I just couldn't see it before.
Good luck to you on your journey. 0 -
Bump to read later. Based on my personal experience I don't think I really gained any "new muscle" when I first began strength training; however, I could see more muscle definition because I was losing body fat. The muscle was there...I just couldn't see it before. Good luck to you on your journey.
^^^THIS!
This is where most people think they're "gaining muscle"... simply because they've stripped away the fat hiding it. Good job!0 -
I love these threads.... when all the special little snowflakes come out.... so certain that they defy the laws of nature, yet never can substantiate their claims with actual scientifically proven tests (ie. body scan, etc).
Those of you that aren't obese, and are building muscle on a deficit. What is your body using to build that muscle with? You're already in a deficit, causing the weight loss, but somehow, magically, are building muscle without a substantial energy source. Not to mention these ladies lack the testosterone levels that are needed for faster muscle gains.
I think bodybuilders the world over should copy your magical routines, because you're gaining muscle on a faster pace than they can. /end sarcasm
^^this
I had a DEXA scan the other day - am going to have one in a few months.
I am female (obviously I hope!), am eating at a deficit, have been back to strength training for a few months (no more newbie gains) and fully expect my muscle to have no more than remained the same but probably to have decreased when I have my next one.
I have been resistance training for a while, but nothing to serious. My estimated TDEE is 3,500 - 3,700 calories. I have been eating at 3,000 calories. As I said before, i gained about 7 pounds LBM, and 2lbs of fat, but my physique made a big change, I look like i lost 10-15lbs in a month.
My question to you would be the same as to the earlier post - how do you KNOW? The only way to really have an accurate deterimination is a DEXA scan. Other methods of calculating are inaccurate and to not differentiate between muscle and other 'stuff' included in the LBM calculation (which includes water). Also, other methods are very variable depending on the user (if caliper) and hydtration plus they only really look at subcutaneous fat and not visceral fat.
Dexa doesn't differentiate between LBM or bodyfat. Dexa also uses weight before the scan from my understanding, hydration or dehydration can throw the thing off as well, this is true for any method. To get a %, you need total mass. If total mass is involved, then it's not fully accurate.
DEXA does differentiate. It actually splits out fat mass, tissue mass, lean mass and mineral content mass (looking at my chart as I type). It actually gives grams of each so the %ages are just a product of math - not the mass of each element.0 -
Not sure who told you that you cannot build muscle while in a caloric def. That's not true. Eat lots of protein while loosing weight and building muscle to fuel your muscles. Youll be just fine.
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Finally and thank you... I ate at a really high deficit for over three years and kept protein high and I had no problem minting and building muscle and losing body fat.0 -
I just don't get why this has to be hill that people want to die on. The science says, with a few exceptions for the obese, newbies gains and atheletes reconditioning, you cannot gain muscle on a deficit. Chris has explained over and over why people see size gains. It's neuromuscular adaption of EXISTING muscle tissue. Yes you get bigger. Yes you get stronger, yes you look better. But you likely didn't grow new muscle cells unless you fit into one of the categories above. And newbie gains are minimal at best.
Why does this really matter to those who claim you did grow muscle tissue. Is it not enough to have a better developed muscle structure, less fat, more strength and look great?? Do you really need to believe that you've beaten the laws of biophysiology too?? Hey, you've accomplished a lot. You look and feel better and you are more healthy. Can't you just give it a rest??!!0 -
Bump to read later. Based on my personal experience I don't think I really gained any "new muscle" when I first began strength training; however, I could see more muscle definition because I was losing body fat. The muscle was there...I just couldn't see it before. Good luck to you on your journey.
^^^THIS!
This is where most people think they're "gaining muscle"... simply because they've stripped away the fat hiding it. Good job!
Yet my weight went from 297 to 306, and i look 10-15lbs lighter.
Glycogen and water. BTW, don't you fit into ne of the categories where gaining muscle tissue is possible at around the 300 lbs mark?? Just sayin'.0 -
Not sure who told you that you cannot build muscle while in a caloric def. That's not true. Eat lots of protein while loosing weight and building muscle to fuel your muscles. Youll be just fine.
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Finally and thank you... I ate at a really high deficit for over three years and kept protein high and I had no problem minting and building muscle and losing body fat.
Posts like this just make me want to smash my face into my desk repeatedly.I just don't get why this has to be hill that people want to die on. The science says, with a few exceptions for the obese, newbies gains and atheletes reconditioning, you cannot gain muscle on a deficit. Chris has explained over and over why people see size gains. It's neuromuscular adaption of EXISTING muscle tissue. Yes you get bigger. Yes you get stronger, yes you look better. But you likely didn't grow new muscle cells unless you fit into one of the categories above. And newbie gains are minimal at best.
Why does this really matter to those who claim you did grow muscle tissue. Is it not enough to have a better developed muscle structure, less fat, more strength and look great?? Do you really need to believe that you've beaten the laws of biophysiology too?? Hey, you've accomplished a lot. You look and feel better and you are more healthy. Can't you just give it a rest??!!
Posts like these are why I don't...
Usually.
I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how I gained over 1.5" on my right arm...and am still gaining, in just a few short months, while all my other measurements are going down again (cutting bodyfat at this time).0 -
Wow! You have loads of replies!! Obviously a great question!!
Here is what has happened to me! I was obese, I have lost 65lb so far and I have been strength training properly for about a month but a small amount for 5 months.
I was losing muscle mass along with fat the whoole time until this month when I lost 2% BF and maintained my Muscle mass! Woo hoo!! The difference? Lots of protein! I am still not hitting my protein goal though so I am going to up my calories on Monday and have a shake on workout days to really help with that! I am hoping that I can maintain my muscle mass that way at least and see my BF% drop further!
I do have to say though that you really are an active person! Do not be afraid to up your activity level! Do it slowly if you need to but you are using that energy so enjoy it! I went from sedentary to lightly active to active over a period of about three months and that made the adjustment way easier!!
Good luck on your way to being fabulous!!0 -
okay that sounds cool. I just saw some guy get it down, saw that they weighed him before, looked like it was part of the calculation. How much does a dexa cost?
The actual machine should do the weighing. Mine was $69 - only took about 15 minutes start to finish. I actually found it a little depressing as my BF% was a lot higher than the online calculators and caliper method showed - mainly because of where I have most of my fat (comfirmed by the scan to be in my *kitten* - not surpising to me!) and probably also due to visceral fat. The nice additional bit of information that I got from it was that I have a super duper bone density.0 -
Nope, the reason I posted my results is because 90 + % of the people on MFP. are newbies to lifting and also over weight, ( the people who can gain muscle while on a deficit) And in my opinion weight training is the single most important thing I did to change my body ( to me weight training is like finding the fountain of youth!) and dont want anyone to be discouraged from implementing a weight training program of their own because they read these threads and might think its not worth the effort.I just don't get why this has to be hill that people want to die on. The science says, with a few exceptions for the obese, newbies gains and atheletes reconditioning, you cannot gain muscle on a deficit. Chris has explained over and over why people see size gains. It's neuromuscular adaption of EXISTING muscle tissue. Yes you get bigger. Yes you get stronger, yes you look better. But you likely didn't grow new muscle cells unless you fit into one of the categories above. And newbie gains are minimal at best.
Why does this really matter to those who claim you did grow muscle tissue. Is it not enough to have a better developed muscle structure, less fat, more strength and look great?? Do you really need to believe that you've beaten the laws of biophysiology too?? Hey, you've accomplished a lot. You look and feel better and you are more healthy. Can't you just give it a rest??!!0 -
Nope, the reason I posted my results is because 90 + % of the people on MFP. are newbies to lifting and also over weight, ( the people who can gain muscle while on a deficit) And in my opinion weight training is the single most important thing I did to change my body ( to me weight training is like finding the fountain of youth!) and dont want anyone to be discouraged from implementing a weight training program of their own because they read these threads and might think its not worth the effort.I just don't get why this has to be hill that people want to die on. The science says, with a few exceptions for the obese, newbies gains and atheletes reconditioning, you cannot gain muscle on a deficit. Chris has explained over and over why people see size gains. It's neuromuscular adaption of EXISTING muscle tissue. Yes you get bigger. Yes you get stronger, yes you look better. But you likely didn't grow new muscle cells unless you fit into one of the categories above. And newbie gains are minimal at best.
Why does this really matter to those who claim you did grow muscle tissue. Is it not enough to have a better developed muscle structure, less fat, more strength and look great?? Do you really need to believe that you've beaten the laws of biophysiology too?? Hey, you've accomplished a lot. You look and feel better and you are more healthy. Can't you just give it a rest??!!
I kind of figured you had a helpful reason behind it...you're a good guy from all I've seen.
The problem is...your results (and I still doubt you've gained much, if any actual mass)...aren't typical (even for newbies...you've pushed HARD...like I did, and most just don't) for one, for two...they only really apply to men. Women in general...even the most naturally testosterone filled one you can pick out of a crowd...will not have the same results.
And here's the thing...seeing all of these posts about building muscle on a deficit...turns them AWAY from lifting. Most women don't want to build muscle...and that's good because they can't easily. But seeing a relatively well built guy saying over and over that they will (which again...the evidence says they won't)...is disheartening.
Do you get what I mean?
Also...I still want to know your opinion on why I'm working my way towards gaining 2" (over 1.5" now) on my right biceps. The answer applies directly to your specific circumstances.0 -
And here's the thing...seeing all of these posts about building muscle on a deficit...turns them AWAY from lifting. Most women don't want to build muscle...and that's good because they can't easily. But seeing a relatively well built guy saying over and over that they will (which again...the evidence says they won't)...is disheartening.
Good point, Cris!
Women already have the misconception that lifting a dumbbell will make them all bulky. These threads about building muscle on a deficit is probably only inspiring to the few women who really want noticeable muscle. Judging by the endless "ideal woman's physique" threads, it seems most women want to be slender, not muscular. I can see how these topics would keep them out of the weight room. I doubt many will follow these 20-page threads, and read close enough to discern the facts from the B.S. claims.0 -
Chris your a good guy aswell and there is nothing wrong with us disagreeing.:drinker: I will be back later to answer your questions ( and like you always point out to women that they shouldn't expect to see the same gains as men but regardless its still very much worth their time to lift) But I have to leave for a wedding. But here is a pic of me at 25 year old right after started gaining my weight, I was 180 lbs back then and then my current pic at 213 lbs and a smaller waist. I didnt gain 33 + lbs of muscle between then and now just from being lazy, eating bad, drinking alot of beer and gaining 50 lbs of fat. ( if you are correct about me just losing fat and uncovering my existing muscle)
Nope, the reason I posted my results is because 90 + % of the people on MFP. are newbies to lifting and also over weight, ( the people who can gain muscle while on a deficit) And in my opinion weight training is the single most important thing I did to change my body ( to me weight training is like finding the fountain of youth!) and dont want anyone to be discouraged from implementing a weight training program of their own because they read these threads and might think its not worth the effort.I just don't get why this has to be hill that people want to die on. The science says, with a few exceptions for the obese, newbies gains and atheletes reconditioning, you cannot gain muscle on a deficit. Chris has explained over and over why people see size gains. It's neuromuscular adaption of EXISTING muscle tissue. Yes you get bigger. Yes you get stronger, yes you look better. But you likely didn't grow new muscle cells unless you fit into one of the categories above. And newbie gains are minimal at best.
Why does this really matter to those who claim you did grow muscle tissue. Is it not enough to have a better developed muscle structure, less fat, more strength and look great?? Do you really need to believe that you've beaten the laws of biophysiology too?? Hey, you've accomplished a lot. You look and feel better and you are more healthy. Can't you just give it a rest??!!
I kind of figured you had a helpful reason behind it...you're a good guy from all I've seen.
The problem is...your results (and I still doubt you've gained much, if any actual mass)...aren't typical (even for newbies...you've pushed HARD...like I did, and most just don't) for one, for two...they only really apply to men. Women in general...even the most naturally testosterone filled one you can pick out of a crowd...will not have the same results.
And here's the thing...seeing all of these posts about building muscle on a deficit...turns them AWAY from lifting. Most women don't want to build muscle...and that's good because they can't easily. But seeing a relatively well built guy saying over and over that they will (which again...the evidence says they won't)...is disheartening.
Do you get what I mean?
Also...I still want to know your opinion on why I'm working my way towards gaining 2" (over 1.5" now) on my right biceps. The answer applies directly to your specific circumstances.
( not saying I didnt gain muscle from gaining fat) Be back later.
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It is true. To gain muscle (actual muscle) you HAVE to add weight to your body. To add weight you need a surplus. Just eating high protein isn't going to do it. Fueling muscle isn't building it.Not sure who told you that you cannot build muscle while in a caloric def. That's not true. Eat lots of protein while loosing weight and building muscle to fuel your muscles. Youll be just fine.
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Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
Bigger legs can be from more water and glycogen storage. More definition means less fat, not necessarily muscle being built.I just got into an arguement with someone today about this very thing. I have gained muscle and I have lost weight. Everybody is different. My legs are bigger. My arms and back are much more defined. My stomach is flattened out. My hips and stomach are smaller but my legs are bigger. My pants fit really badly right now. Too small in some places and too big in others. I like having muscletone so this really doesn't bother me. I just have to find pants that are cut differently. I still have about 5 more pounds to lose. I'm going to continue to eat at a deficit and alternate cardio one day with strength training the next until my weight is where I want it, then I will up my calories to maintain. I feel great.
Seeing muscle fools a lot of people into thinking that they built it.
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
Chris your a good guy aswell and there is nothing wrong with us disagreeing.:drinker: I will be back later to answer your questions ( and like you always point out to women that they shouldn't expect to see the same gains as men but regardless its still very much worth their time to lift) But I have to leave for a wedding. But here is a pic of me at 25 year old right after started gaining my weight, I was 180 lbs back then and then my current pic at 213 lbs and a smaller waist. I didnt gain 33 + lbs of muscle between then and now just from being lazy, eating bad, drinking alot of beer and gaining 50 lbs of fat. ( if you are correct about me just losing fat and uncovering my existing muscle)
Nope, the reason I posted my results is because 90 + % of the people on MFP. are newbies to lifting and also over weight, ( the people who can gain muscle while on a deficit) And in my opinion weight training is the single most important thing I did to change my body ( to me weight training is like finding the fountain of youth!) and dont want anyone to be discouraged from implementing a weight training program of their own because they read these threads and might think its not worth the effort.I just don't get why this has to be hill that people want to die on. The science says, with a few exceptions for the obese, newbies gains and atheletes reconditioning, you cannot gain muscle on a deficit. Chris has explained over and over why people see size gains. It's neuromuscular adaption of EXISTING muscle tissue. Yes you get bigger. Yes you get stronger, yes you look better. But you likely didn't grow new muscle cells unless you fit into one of the categories above. And newbie gains are minimal at best.
Why does this really matter to those who claim you did grow muscle tissue. Is it not enough to have a better developed muscle structure, less fat, more strength and look great?? Do you really need to believe that you've beaten the laws of biophysiology too?? Hey, you've accomplished a lot. You look and feel better and you are more healthy. Can't you just give it a rest??!!
I kind of figured you had a helpful reason behind it...you're a good guy from all I've seen.
The problem is...your results (and I still doubt you've gained much, if any actual mass)...aren't typical (even for newbies...you've pushed HARD...like I did, and most just don't) for one, for two...they only really apply to men. Women in general...even the most naturally testosterone filled one you can pick out of a crowd...will not have the same results.
And here's the thing...seeing all of these posts about building muscle on a deficit...turns them AWAY from lifting. Most women don't want to build muscle...and that's good because they can't easily. But seeing a relatively well built guy saying over and over that they will (which again...the evidence says they won't)...is disheartening.
Do you get what I mean?
Also...I still want to know your opinion on why I'm working my way towards gaining 2" (over 1.5" now) on my right biceps. The answer applies directly to your specific circumstances.
( not saying I didnt gain muscle from gaining fat) Be back later.
Sorry - but these pictures are a little disingenuous. I know there are a bunch of pics 'in between' where there is a significant weight gain (cause you have posted them before) so you must have been eating at a surplus. You did not go from pic #1 straight to pic #2 by building muscle at a deficit.0 -
Chris your a good guy aswell and there is nothing wrong with us disagreeing. I will be back later to answer your questions ( and like you always point out to women that they shouldn't expect to see the same gains as men but regardless its still very much worth their time to lift) But I have to leave for a wedding. But here is a pic of me at 25 year old right after started gaining my weight, I was 180 lbs back then and then my current pic at 213 lbs and a smaller waist. I didnt gain 33 + lbs of muscle between then and now just from being lazy, eating bad, drinking alot of beer and gaining 50 lbs of fat. ( if you are correct about me just losing fat and uncovering my existing muscle)
( not saying I didnt gain muscle from gaining fat) Be back later.
I think you would be amazed at how much muscle is built on a caloric surplus (particularly over time!) when you're carrying around a crapload of weight just moving your body around. Yes, this includes in your arms, shoulders, back, everywhere. My little brother is a perfect example. He went from overweight/obese, to this picture in his first year of strength training (I wish I had a before picture!).
Eating on a calorie deficit, being anal about his protein intake, and hard strength training did that. It was all existing mass, with the size stimulated by neuromuscular response, and glycogen storage. He gained over 3" on his arms alone.
All with existing muscle.
Oh, and for the record...this picture was after 6mos of bulking, and 3mos cutting, net weight gain was only 4lbs:
Not a lot of difference in size...is there.0 -
I just don't get why this has to be hill that people want to die on. The science says, with a few exceptions for the obese, newbies gains and atheletes reconditioning, you cannot gain muscle on a deficit. Chris has explained over and over why people see size gains. It's neuromuscular adaption of EXISTING muscle tissue. Yes you get bigger. Yes you get stronger, yes you look better. But you likely didn't grow new muscle cells unless you fit into one of the categories above. And newbie gains are minimal at best.
Why does this really matter to those who claim you did grow muscle tissue. Is it not enough to have a better developed muscle structure, less fat, more strength and look great?? Do you really need to believe that you've beaten the laws of biophysiology too?? Hey, you've accomplished a lot. You look and feel better and you are more healthy. Can't you just give it a rest??!!
Good point but people will keep saying this because the truth is most people think that gaining muscle is having better developed muscles, less fat, and more strength. I don't think that people want to beat the laws of physiology when they say these things they just don't know that these laws exist. Personally I never heard of neuromuscular adaption until i read this thread and most people you meet on the street haven't either. So people will continue to say they have built muscle on a deficit because it looks/feels like they did and for most of the population muscle gain is based on looks/strength not science.0 -
You can and will build muscle while in deficit. Even better, the more muscle you build, the higher you metabolism will be, because lean muscle burns more calories than fat.
This statement is deceptive and frustrating to someone like me. This implies that any muscle growth = faster metabolism = fat flying off of you. It does not happen like that...
This is true because a pound of muscle burns from 6 - 35 calories per day, depending on who did the study, more than a pound of fat. It is a lot of work to add even one pound of muscle...I wouldn't rely on the fat burning capabilities of a little extra muscle.0 -
Alright, so, question. I've always had pretty lean calves, I'm assuming due to years and years of dancing, my habit of running, and genetics. The rest of me is pretty fatty. In a one month period, I put on 1/4 inch on my calves (which do not have much fat on them), lost inches just about everywhere else I measure (upper arms, upper thighs, my natural waist, my navel, and my hips), and lost 5 pounds. Does that mean that I did actually build muscle (since my calves got bigger) and also lost fat (since everywhere else except for my bust) while eating at a mild deficit?0
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