Building Muscle vs. Losing Weight
Options
Replies
-
Oh, I know you wern't I just thought you misunderstood my previous post because I was in a rush and didn't convey what I was trying to say very well.
Sorry I was in a rush to get out the door as I was typing my last post, Yes like I said before, In between the two pics, I gained alot of fat from becomming lazy, laying on the couch, eating bad food and alot of it and driunking alot of beer. Then losing 83 lbs.
Chris your a good guy aswell and there is nothing wrong with us disagreeing.:drinker: I will be back later to answer your questions ( and like you always point out to women that they shouldn't expect to see the same gains as men but regardless its still very much worth their time to lift) But I have to leave for a wedding. But here is a pic of me at 25 year old right after started gaining my weight, I was 180 lbs back then and then my current pic at 213 lbs and a smaller waist. I didnt gain 33 + lbs of muscle between then and now just from being lazy, eating bad, drinking alot of beer and gaining 50 lbs of fat. ( if you are correct about me just losing fat and uncovering my existing muscle)
Nope, the reason I posted my results is because 90 + % of the people on MFP. are newbies to lifting and also over weight, ( the people who can gain muscle while on a deficit) And in my opinion weight training is the single most important thing I did to change my body ( to me weight training is like finding the fountain of youth!) and dont want anyone to be discouraged from implementing a weight training program of their own because they read these threads and might think its not worth the effort.I just don't get why this has to be hill that people want to die on. The science says, with a few exceptions for the obese, newbies gains and atheletes reconditioning, you cannot gain muscle on a deficit. Chris has explained over and over why people see size gains. It's neuromuscular adaption of EXISTING muscle tissue. Yes you get bigger. Yes you get stronger, yes you look better. But you likely didn't grow new muscle cells unless you fit into one of the categories above. And newbie gains are minimal at best.
Why does this really matter to those who claim you did grow muscle tissue. Is it not enough to have a better developed muscle structure, less fat, more strength and look great?? Do you really need to believe that you've beaten the laws of biophysiology too?? Hey, you've accomplished a lot. You look and feel better and you are more healthy. Can't you just give it a rest??!!
I kind of figured you had a helpful reason behind it...you're a good guy from all I've seen.
The problem is...your results (and I still doubt you've gained much, if any actual mass)...aren't typical (even for newbies...you've pushed HARD...like I did, and most just don't) for one, for two...they only really apply to men. Women in general...even the most naturally testosterone filled one you can pick out of a crowd...will not have the same results.
And here's the thing...seeing all of these posts about building muscle on a deficit...turns them AWAY from lifting. Most women don't want to build muscle...and that's good because they can't easily. But seeing a relatively well built guy saying over and over that they will (which again...the evidence says they won't)...is disheartening.
Do you get what I mean?
Also...I still want to know your opinion on why I'm working my way towards gaining 2" (over 1.5" now) on my right biceps. The answer applies directly to your specific circumstances.
( not saying I didnt gain muscle from gaining fat) Be back later.
Sorry - but these pictures are a little disingenuous. I know there are a bunch of pics 'in between' where there is a significant weight gain (cause you have posted them before) so you must have been eating at a surplus. You did not go from pic #1 straight to pic #2 by building muscle at a deficit.
But there is no way I went from my before pic to my after pic. just by being lazy, eating bad and drinking beer, and then losing the fat. For example, at 287 lbs, my highest weight I didnt have any traps, just like I didnt prior to gaining the weight, I also didnt gain any noticable muscle in my legs or calves and my calves are now over an inch larger than they were at my highest weight. Also at 287 lbs, I could wrap my thumb and middle finger around my forearm ( right above my wrist) and touch my fingers together, now I cant even come close. I didnt gain any lean muscle in these area's from gettting fat. ( not saying I didnt gain any lean muscle from getting fat)
I did not mean that you that you did it by basically sitting on your *kitten* - I hope you did not take it that way. I know it takes a shi*t load of work to get into the shape you are in now. The point I was trying to clarify, and that you had already pointed out earlier, was that you went from a larger size down to where you are now. Most people do not read all the way through these threads most of the time.
I was not trying to give you a hard time maliciously :flowerforyou:0 -
My brother was never not fat...well, not from his late teens anyhow. I still think you're underestimating how much muscle you have when you've got to carry around nearly 300lbs of body. I understand you talking about things like traps and your wrist, but the small amount of growth necessary to change those things from looking nonexistent to visible falls well within the range of glycogen storage and again...neuromuscular adaptation.
Before we continue this discussion though, I want you to explain to me how I've grown over 1.5" on my right biceps (and climbing)...no gain on my left...in this short period of time.
On a calorie deficit.0 -
Chris, I don't know the circumstances of your surgery, damaged tissue etc. but my cousin is a surgeon and I will ask him what the possibilities are tomorrow. See, if i would have gained the same amount of muscle in my legs and calves from carrying all the extra weight around as I did in my arms, chest, back and shoulders you might have a point, but I didnt, my legs and calves wern't much different at 287 lbs as they were at 180. And you would think my legs and calves would have benefited as much if not more than other area's of my body. I also understand about glycogen storage and water retention, I lift at one of the top gyms ( the York Barbell Gym) in the country, Its the birth place of body buildiing, weight lifting and unfortunately steriods in the USA. (actually ninerbuff knows about it and has either drove past it or took a tour when he was in the area) The thing is glycogen and water levels flucuate in your body, my monthly measurements taken by very knowledgeable trainers never flucutated over time (after the 4th or 5th month) my measurements either stayed the same or increased, they never decreased after the 5th month.My brother was never not fat...well, not from his late teens anyhow. I still think you're underestimating how much muscle you have when you've got to carry around nearly 300lbs of body. I understand you talking about things like traps and your wrist, but the small amount of growth necessary to change those things from looking nonexistent to visible falls well within the range of glycogen storage and again...neuromuscular adaptation.
Before we continue this discussion though, I want you to explain to me how I've grown over 1.5" on my right biceps (and climbing)...no gain on my left...in this short period of time.
On a calorie deficit.
0 -
Chris, I don't know the circumstances of your surgery, damaged tissue etc. but my cousin is a surgeon and I will ask him what the possibilities are tomorrow. See, if i would have gained the same amount of muscle in my legs and calves from carrying all the extra weight around as I did in my arms, chest, back and shoulders you might have a point, but I didnt, my legs and calves wern't much different at 287 lbs as they were at 180. And you would think my legs and calves would have benefitted as much if not more than other area's of my body. I also understand about glycogen storage and water retention, I lift at one of the top gyms ( the York Barbell Gym) in the country, Its the birth place of body buildiing, weight lifting and unfortunately steriods in the USA. (actually ninerbuff knows about it and has either drove past it or took a tour when he was in the area) The thing is glycogen and water levels flucuate in your body, my monthly measurements taken by very knowledgeable trainers never flucutated over time (after the 4th or 5th month) my measurements either stayed the same or increased, they never decreased after the 5th month.My brother was never not fat...well, not from his late teens anyhow. I still think you're underestimating how much muscle you have when you've got to carry around nearly 300lbs of body. I understand you talking about things like traps and your wrist, but the small amount of growth necessary to change those things from looking nonexistent to visible falls well within the range of glycogen storage and again...neuromuscular adaptation.
Before we continue this discussion though, I want you to explain to me how I've grown over 1.5" on my right biceps (and climbing)...no gain on my left...in this short period of time.
On a calorie deficit.
The muscles in your legs are more dense (particularly your calves). They react in a different way than upper body muscles.
As for my injury, I ripped my right lower biceps tendon off of my forearm. For two weeks before the surgery...the biceps couldn't contract, because there was nothing to contract against. Post surgery, it was in a partially immobile splint for two weeks. When the splint was removed...my biceps was flaccid, it would barely flex, and the muscle was visibly smaller (this had nothing to do with the surgery or injury itself...that was strictly the tendon, totally unrelated to the tissue...my biceps is, and was...whole). In less than a month, it was nearly at its previous size, would flex, and my strength increase was rapid. Easily as quickly as when I first started lifting. It's still gaining in size, every week.
Pre injury:
Night of the injury:
I've been on a deficit the entire time.
I'm asking you this for a very specific reason...so please bear with me before we continue your part of the discussion, as I feel this has a very direct relation.0 -
So why has the muscles in my legs responded to lifting the same as other muscle groups then, but my legs didnt respond to carrying around 287 lbs on a daily basis?
Chris No offense but if you think that you know more about what I gained or havent gained better than the trainers and the body builders that train there you would be mistaken. ( not saying that your not knowledgable) Also there is now way I gained what .66 lbs of muscle for every 1 lb. of fat from just being lazy, drinking, eating bad and then carrying that extra weight around. Heck I'm currently bulking right now and have gained 11 lbs so far, mise well quit workingout and eating healthy and just gain 30 more lbs and then cut to reach my goal. Instead of bulking, cutting, eating healthy and busting my *kitten* for the next 2 years.
LIke I said I will talk to my cousin tomorrow to find out what the possiblilites are.0 -
So why has the muscles in my legs responded in my legs to lifting the same as other muscle groups then but my legs didnt respond to carrying around 287 lbs on a daily basis?
Chris No offense but if you think that you know more about what I gained or havent gained than the trainers and the body builders that train there you would be mistaken. ( not saying that your not knowledgable) Also there is now way I gained what .66 lbs of muscle for every 1 lb. of fat from just being lazy, drinking, eating bad and then carrying that extra weight around. Heck I'm currently bulking right now and have gained 11 lbs so far, mise well quit workingout and eating healthy and just gain 30 more lbs and then cut to reach my goal. Instead of bulking, cutting, eating healthy and busting my *kitten* for the next 2 years.
LIke I said I talk to my cousin tomorrow to find out what the possiblilites are.
Not offended...it takes more than that...and you're just conversing like I am...no worries.
I'm not saying I know more...at all. Trust me there lol.
By the way...it will be interesting to hear what your cousin has to say. When I told my ortho the issue, then told him my belief of what it was...he was very surprised. He flat said that of every one of these procedures he had ever performed...100% across the board...I was the only one who figured out the right answer on my own. This is hundreds and hundreds...pro athletes, competitive lifters...body builders...etc. Its not that I'm smarter...or know more either. It's just that I knew how...and more importantly...had the desire...to find out WHY. I asked him what the others thought it was...and the answer was gaining muscle....invariably.
It's a very logical assumption.0 -
Oh I know the answer isnt muscle and from the way you keep hinting i'm almost 100% sure I know the answer, I just need to find out today how damaged and surgically repaired tissue in one of your arms applys to me or even your other arm ( if at all) Just like using your brother to compare to me when you don't know how much lean muscle mass he had prior to gaining the weight like we do with me. Basicly I dont need to find out what the answer to your question is, just if we are comparing apples to apples or apples to oranges.So why has the muscles in my legs responded in my legs to lifting the same as other muscle groups then but my legs didnt respond to carrying around 287 lbs on a daily basis?
Chris No offense but if you think that you know more about what I gained or havent gained than the trainers and the body builders that train there you would be mistaken. ( not saying that your not knowledgable) Also there is now way I gained what .66 lbs of muscle for every 1 lb. of fat from just being lazy, drinking, eating bad and then carrying that extra weight around. Heck I'm currently bulking right now and have gained 11 lbs so far, mise well quit workingout and eating healthy and just gain 30 more lbs and then cut to reach my goal. Instead of bulking, cutting, eating healthy and busting my *kitten* for the next 2 years.
LIke I said I talk to my cousin tomorrow to find out what the possiblilites are.
Not offended...it takes more than that...and you're just conversing like I am...no worries.
I'm not saying I know more...at all. Trust me there lol.
By the way...it will be interesting to hear what your cousin has to say. When I told my ortho the issue, then told him my belief of what it was...he was very surprised. He flat said that of every one of these procedures he had ever performed...100% across the board...I was the only one who figured out the right answer on my own. This is hundreds and hundreds...pro athletes, competitive lifters...body builders...etc. Its not that I'm smarter...or know more either. It's just that I knew how...and more importantly...had the desire...to find out WHY. I asked him what the others thought it was...and the answer was gaining muscle....invariably.
It's a very logical assumption.0 -
Oh I know the answer isnt muscle and from the way you keep hinting i'm almost 100% sure I know the answer, I just need to find out today how damaged and surgically repaired tissue in one of your arms applys to me or even your other arm ( if at all) Just like using your brother to compare to me when you don't know how much lean muscle mass he had prior to gaining the weight like we do with me. Basicly I dont need to find out what the answer to your question is, just if we are comparing apples to apples or apples to oranges.Not offended...it takes more than that...and you're just conversing like I am...no worries.
I'm not saying I know more...at all. Trust me there lol.
By the way...it will be interesting to hear what your cousin has to say. When I told my ortho the issue, then told him my belief of what it was...he was very surprised. He flat said that of every one of these procedures he had ever performed...100% across the board...I was the only one who figured out the right answer on my own. This is hundreds and hundreds...pro athletes, competitive lifters...body builders...etc. Its not that I'm smarter...or know more either. It's just that I knew how...and more importantly...had the desire...to find out WHY. I asked him what the others thought it was...and the answer was gaining muscle....invariably.
It's a very logical assumption.
The tissue wasn't damaged, it was just effectively immobilized for nearly a month. The tendon was damaged, but only in the area where it was ripped from the bone. The muscle is and was 100% intact. Here's a 3D animated video of the exact procedure they did on me.
http://youtu.be/n2Yut-0l2oU
And I'll just skip to the point...though I'd still love to hear your cousins response. During the course of that immobilization, the connections between my brain, and my biceps...fell into disuse. This happens amazingly quickly. Also because of the fact it was no longer usable...the muscle stopped storing glycogen virtually completely. It wasn't necessary anymore...and this caused an almost Instant and very drastic reduction in size. Once the tendon was repaired at the bone, suddenly my biceps became usable again. There hadn't been enough time for real atrophy to occur, and yet...I had no strength. The muscle was fundamentally like that of an infant again. Soft, and useless. It was all there still, but it didn't really matter. Within a week of normal use, it grew in size some (not a lot), I still couldn't effectively 'flex' it...but I could cause it to move again. When I hit the gym though...things began happening in a very dramatic manner.
It flat grew.
According to my ortho, most inactive people, particularly obese people...normally hang in a range much closer to the infant end of the scale, than the lifter/athlete end. Their muscles only store enough glycogen, and the level of communication with the brain (which requires energy expenditure) is only maintained to the level necessary for motion. I had friends a couple years back who were twins. One was a construction worker (that's how we met), the other a sales clerk at a clothing store. Neither worked out, they lived together so their diet I assume was relatively similar...but their physiques were completely, totally different...to the point they looked more like cousins or regular brothers than twins. Virtually identical genetics. Anyway, the point is...that just the simple act of going to the gym, is MORE than enough to cause very quick increases in strength, and in male individuals, a decent amount of size. Firmness is improved quickly as well. My gains were accelerated dramatically by the previous level of fitness I had maintained. Some people it takes months and more to come to that same level...even without new muscle 'growth'.
Again, it looked like there was NO biceps there! I don't mean just a soft version of the larger muscle...I mean my arm looked almost entirely straight from shoulder to elbow. You talk about having no traps? I had no biceps. There was no 'belly' at my elbow even when not flexed. Nothing.
I will put in an email to my ortho (we still communicate, he fully released me three full weeks before any person he'd performed this surgery before, and asked me to keep in touch if I had any further issues)...and see if he'll give me his take on this. I truly believe he's going to say that if you put on any effective muscle, it was minimal...and that virtually all of your gains came from your body using what it already had.
As another quick and only semi related example...did you know that as a child, if the muscles in one eye or the other focus differently for a lengthy period of time, your brain will literally STOP using that eye? You will literally lose vision, permanently and irrevocably, due to the lack of proper communication between your brain, and the muscles of your eye. Our brains and muscular structures are very, very strange and complicated things.
Anyway, my brother...the point that I was making is that due to his weight, there was actual muscle mass under there. Grab a fat mans arm, tell him to flex...yes, there may be half an inch of fat surrounding it...but under that, is muscle. It's LARGE (if not strong and hard). And yes, he gained it while being lazy and drinking beer and overeating. If more men strength trained from obesity, while maintaining appropriate protein intake, I think we'd all be very, very jealous of their results. I personally don't know any man that has done that...other than my brother. They ALL do substantial cardio first.0 -
Chris what Im getting at is what occured to you injured arm isn't relevant because it is like comparing apples to oranges when comparing it to me or even your other arm. And no offense other than your brother busting his butt lifting from day one because I did the same thing, nothing else you just posted is either.0
-
Chris what Im getting at is what occured to you injured arm isn't relevant because it is like comparing apples to oranges when comparing it to me or even your other arm. And no offense other than your brother busting his butt lifting from day one because I did the same thing, nothing else you just posted is either.
Muscle to muscle is apples to oranges? A muscle being forcibly returned to a state of disuse (obesity), and then returning to use through lifting and a calorie deficit and growing substantially...apples to oranges?
I think you'd be pretty surprised at the relevancy if you were open to it, but it's clear you're not seeing it. Others can though...so we'll leave it at that.0 -
Chris no Im open to everything you suggest, its just that I work 60 -70 hours a week, so your imobilized arm, or comparing me to an infant is like comparing apples to oranges, during my free time, I was so tired that I would just plop down on the couch, eat bad food, drink alot of beer and watch tv and as I got older I started to gain weight from it. Also your example of an obese male having alot of hard muscle exsiting under the fat doesnt compare to me because I didnt have it prior to getting fat or while I was fat.0
-
Chris no Im open to everything you suggest, its just that I work 60 -70 hours a week, so your imobilized arm, or comparing me to an infant is like comparing apples to oranges, during my free time, I was so tired that I would just plop down on the couch, eat bad food, drink alot of beer and watch tv.
I disagree still on the relevance. You're not seeing the progression in the muscle, nor isolating that progression and comparing it directly..but like I said, that's ok we can agree to disagree here.
What kind of work was it? I was fat working 60-70hrs a week too, similar diet lol. Not as large overall as you were of course (only 220lbs...but I'm 5'7" tall)...but still fat. You've seen my before and after pictures...it looks like i put on 15lbs or more of muscle.
I didn't, despite increased measurements everywhere.
Three months work. 40lbs lost.
0 -
Chris post a pic. of you prior to getting fat. You probably had that muscle prior to gaining the weight, I didn't!
Here is a link, Send a PM. to Alan Aragon (im sure you know who he is) Ask him how much lean muscle can a skinny male expect to gain by gaining 80lbs of fat while not lifting at all, carrying it around for a period of time and then losing the fat? You will be surprised at his answer.
http://bodyspace.bodybuilding.com/alanaragon/0 -
Let's be honest here, using how much you work as an excuse for not working out is a poor excuse. I work 50-60 hours a week and my job requires me to be on-call at times. I have a health issue that leaves me feeling beat to death many days but I still hit the weights hard 4-days a week and cardio 2 - 4 times a week depending on how I feel. The time is there if you WANT it, you just have to find it. If you don't want to use that time to exercise that's fine but don't use a lack of time as an excuse. The only people that I truly feel have a time excuse are new mothers, especially new single mothers, and professionals that travel every week.0
-
Actually, the immobilized arm comment really resonated with me a lot, likewise having more muscle mass as a heavier person than when I was a skinny kid. Age and maturity alone adds more muscle mass, until you start getting to the age where you naturally start losing it. I'm probably close to that age now, about to turn 40, and working hard to keep it.
My muscles appear larger now than before I lifted, than before I lost weight. My arms were jiggly... you couldn't see anything when I flexed. There were no visible muscles in my back or legs, either. But going by estimates of body fat percentage, my lean mass is lower than it was when I started on here by several pounds. I lost more fat than lean mass, sure, but I didn't "gain" muscle, either.
So when Chris said that your muscles become more responsive, that was a big "AHA!" moment for me... that explained why I could "see" muscles I couldn't see before. Because even with the layer of fat covering them, I always thought, "Shouldn't I still be able to see the difference when I flexed?" Now I know why.
And when I was a skinny kid (up to my mid 20s), I didn't have much muscle at all. Over the next 15 years, between growing older, having a physically demanding job, having some physically demanding hobbies, and carrying around an extra 20-30 pounds all the time, I have a lot more muscle now than I did then. Even wearing about the same size clothes, my thighs, calves and arms are much more developed now. Before I did any lifting at all.
Edited to add some photos:
Pre-weight gain me with skinny arms and legs and very little muscle (and padding in the bust), and me now. I weigh about 15-20 pounds more now, but wear the same size clothes.
Mid-weight loss me, before any lifting, and me now.
0 -
Chris, I never used how much I work as an excuse, look at any thread about the excuses of why they got fat and my answer always is, I was lazy, ate bad, and drank alot of beer, I currently work the same amount of hours at the same job, the only difference is that I am no longer lazy. And until I started a bulk recently worked out 7 days a week. But once again preaching to me that working a lot isnt an excuse ( I agree 100%) has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Send Alan a PM.Let's be honest here, using how much you work as an excuse for not working out is a poor excuse. I work 50-60 hours a week and my job requires me to be on-call at times. I have a health issue that leaves me feeling beat to death many days but I still hit the weights hard 4-days a week and cardio 2 - 4 times a week depending on how I feel. The time is there if you WANT it, you just have to find it. If you don't want to use that time to exercise that's fine but don't use a lack of time as an excuse. The only people that I truly feel have a time excuse are new mothers, especially new single mothers, and professionals that travel every week.
And also post a pic. of you just prior to gaining your weight. 0 -
Chris post a pic. of you prior to getting fat. You probably had that muscle prior to gaining the weight, I didn't!
Here is a link, Send a PM. to Alan Aragon (im sure you know who he is) Ask him how much lean muscle can a skinny male expect to gain by gaining 80lbs of fat while not lifting at all, carrying it around for a period of time and then losing the fat? You will be surprised at his answer.
http://bodyspace.bodybuilding.com/alanaragon/
Not really...I was a pretty slim kid till I started putting on weight. All of the real muscle I gained, I gained during that period. This picture doesn't show my build much (I hated pictures so I don't have many), but you can certainly see the difference between it, and its comparison as I got fatter, and the final outcome:
Sorry for the last picture, thought it fit the theme =p. Seriously though...that green shirt from the first picture? I still have it, it doesn't fit my shoulders properly anymore. Its a medium. The second shirt is large...and I still filled out the sleeves more.0 -
Chris, I never used how much I work as an excuse, look at any thread about the excuses of why they got fat and my answer always is, I was lazy, ate bad, and drank alot of beer, I currently work the same amount of hours at the same job, the only difference is that I am no longer lazy. And until I started a bulk recently worked out 7 days a week. But once again preaching to me that working a lot isnt an excuse ( I agree 100%) has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Send Alan a PM.Let's be honest here, using how much you work as an excuse for not working out is a poor excuse. I work 50-60 hours a week and my job requires me to be on-call at times. I have a health issue that leaves me feeling beat to death many days but I still hit the weights hard 4-days a week and cardio 2 - 4 times a week depending on how I feel. The time is there if you WANT it, you just have to find it. If you don't want to use that time to exercise that's fine but don't use a lack of time as an excuse. The only people that I truly feel have a time excuse are new mothers, especially new single mothers, and professionals that travel every week. And also post a pic. of you just prior to gaining your weight.
I didn't post that, lol.0 -
OH crap sorry chris!! I was so use to going back and forth with you that I didnt see that it was somebody else!! :bigsmile:0
-
OH crap sorry chris!! I was so use to going back and forth with you that I didnt see that it was somebody else!! :bigsmile:
Lol
. 0
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 392.1K Introduce Yourself
- 43.6K Getting Started
- 259.9K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.7K Food and Nutrition
- 47.4K Recipes
- 232.4K Fitness and Exercise
- 403 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.4K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 152.8K Motivation and Support
- 7.9K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.4K MyFitnessPal Information
- 23 News and Announcements
- 1K Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.4K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions