Building Muscle vs. Losing Weight
Replies
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Because growing muscle is extremely low on the priority list when the human body is in a caloric deficit. Calorie deficit means not enough fuel to sustain the current body weight. If there isn't enough food to sustain current size, the human body will NOT try to increase in size. That should honestly be common sense. Remember, they human body doesn't understand "dieting." It just understands food or famine. If you are eating a caloric deficit, as far as the human body knows, it's because there isn't enough food to go around, which means it needs to eliminate all non-essential function and streamline operations in order to survive as long as possible until enough food is available again. So it prioritizes. Top priority is the brain, making sure the brain has enough fuel to function, which takes on average 500 calories a day. Then you have the rest of the vital organs, heart, lungs, blood, liver, kidneys, spleen, stomach, intestines, skin, etc. The body uses the food that's eaten to make sure all those have enough fuel to function, as well as to ensure that they are properly maintained and repaired. Then it needs to ensure that essential skeletal muscle and bone are maintained and repaired. All of this comes from food, because we can't store amino acids, so the body needs to use the protein we eat for all of these essential repairs and functions.There's a lot of bro-science in this thread, with very little research to back it up.
All of you saying that you can't gain muscle mass whilst in calorie deficit need to explain why you need to eat more than your body consumes to get bigger muscles. If you have fat, your body an use that to burn for energy surely, which is how the body works. Lipid stores burnt through fat oxidisation to be converted into glucose, the body's fuel. Until your body is down to a very low fat percentage there is no scientific reason why you can't gain muscle mass while losing weight if you have enough of the right foods in you. Does this not make sense? I'm not trolling by the way, I'm just looking at it from a different perspective.
And this doesn't even include movement. Getting up, walking, typing, talking, exercising, etc. As you can see, there's no room for building even more muscle tissue to have to maintain in this design, there simply isn't enough fuel to go around. As for why can't the body just use stored glucose from adipose fat? That's a simple answer. You can't build muscle out of glucose. Glucose can provide energy for ATP for body functions. It can't be used to build or maintain tissue.0 -
Body builders who compete (and do it with enhancement) CAN'T add muscle on calorie deficit. In fact they LOSE it even with all the protein (and they eat loads of it) they ingest. If they can't even with enhancement, what makes you think the average person can without it?There's a lot of bro-science in this thread, with very little research to back it up.
All of you saying that you can't gain muscle mass whilst in calorie deficit need to explain why you need to eat more than your body consumes to get bigger muscles. If you have fat, your body an use that to burn for energy surely, which is how the body works. Lipid stores burnt through fat oxidisation to be converted into glucose, the body's fuel. Until your body is down to a very low fat percentage there is no scientific reason why you can't gain muscle mass while losing weight if you have enough of the right foods in you. Does this not make sense? I'm not trolling by the way, I'm just looking at it from a different perspective.
While there are a few people with a certain position that can do, even for them the gain is minimal at best.
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer/Group Fitness Instructor
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
Body builders who compete (and do it with enhancement) CAN'T add muscle on calorie deficit. In fact they LOSE it even with all the protein (and they eat loads of it) they ingest. If they can't even with enhancement, what makes you think the average person can without it?There's a lot of bro-science in this thread, with very little research to back it up.
All of you saying that you can't gain muscle mass whilst in calorie deficit need to explain why you need to eat more than your body consumes to get bigger muscles. If you have fat, your body an use that to burn for energy surely, which is how the body works. Lipid stores burnt through fat oxidisation to be converted into glucose, the body's fuel. Until your body is down to a very low fat percentage there is no scientific reason why you can't gain muscle mass while losing weight if you have enough of the right foods in you. Does this not make sense? I'm not trolling by the way, I'm just looking at it from a different perspective.
While there are a few people with a certain position that can do, even for them the gain is minimal at best.
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer/Group Fitness Instructor
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I don't mean to be argumentative in my reply, but is there anything other than anecdotal proof of this? As tigerswords says, muscle can't be produced from glucose or the intermediary storage glycogen, but if your diet includes enough protein for conversion to myosin/actin/etc for growth and other required fuel, why can't the oxidised fat be used to re-stock the muscles and other body parts with glucose while the protein is used to re-build broken down muscle?
Surely if you stick to your maintenance (including BMR and other exercise), you will still gain muscle. it's a fact that your body can't store energy it doesn't use other than in fat. A lot of what I've read says you should eat over maintenance to gain muscle, which makes no sense as maintenance includes the actual calories required to build muscle.
I suppose there might be reason for eating over maintenance to ensure you have headspace in case you under estimate your calories, but logically there is no reason to not stick to the energy your body needs.0 -
Logically it would make sense that the body SHOULD just use calories in storage and no weight gain occur even if the intake is very low. So why is it that people on exercising and only netting 400 hundred calorie total for a day don't lose weight? The body's sole purpose is just to survive based on environmental stimulus. If it notices calorie deficit, hormonal changes dictate how energy is used. You're looking at it as if ALL protein ingested is being used for muscle when it isn't because if that was the case, then anyone who just eats high protein would practically gain muscle with no effort. And it' NOT a fact that your body CAN'T store energy other than fat. Glucose is an energy store and is stored in the muscle and liver.
Body builders who compete (and do it with enhancement) CAN'T add muscle on calorie deficit. In fact they LOSE it even with all the protein (and they eat loads of it) they ingest. If they can't even with enhancement, what makes you think the average person can without it?There's a lot of bro-science in this thread, with very little research to back it up.
All of you saying that you can't gain muscle mass whilst in calorie deficit need to explain why you need to eat more than your body consumes to get bigger muscles. If you have fat, your body an use that to burn for energy surely, which is how the body works. Lipid stores burnt through fat oxidisation to be converted into glucose, the body's fuel. Until your body is down to a very low fat percentage there is no scientific reason why you can't gain muscle mass while losing weight if you have enough of the right foods in you. Does this not make sense? I'm not trolling by the way, I'm just looking at it from a different perspective.
While there are a few people with a certain position that can do, even for them the gain is minimal at best.
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer/Group Fitness Instructor
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I don't mean to be argumentative in my reply, but is there anything other than anecdotal proof of this? As tigerswords says, muscle can't be produced from glucose or the intermediary storage glycogen, but if your diet includes enough protein for conversion to myosin/actin/etc for growth and other required fuel, why can't the oxidised fat be used to re-stock the muscles and other body parts with glucose while the protein is used to re-build broken down muscle?
Surely if you stick to your maintenance (including BMR and other exercise), you will still gain muscle. it's a fact that your body can't store energy it doesn't use other than in fat. A lot of what I've read says you should eat over maintenance to gain muscle, which makes no sense as maintenance includes the actual calories required to build muscle.
I suppose there might be reason for eating over maintenance to ensure you have headspace in case you under estimate your calories, but logically there is no reason to not stick to the energy your body needs.
Explanations have been posted. Examples and "real life" comparisons aren't explained by your theory. Again if what you stated made perfect sense, then there should be thousands of people on calorie deficits building muscle with no issue and that's simply not the case. It's okay to be wrong....................
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer/Group Fitness Instructor
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
Without ready the 200 or so responses to this widely debated topic, I will just say that I decided to focus on fat loss before building mass because I wanted to see what I was working with and didn't really want to invest the time and discipline required to build while cutting. I think it's possible to do both, but it's very difficult and you will always be doing more of one than the other. Almost any bodybuilder will tell you that it is impossible to build mass while you're in a deficit; however, it is very possible to keep what you have if you're able to accept reasonable loses (1-2lbs per week). This is the route I have chosen. Also, when it is time to bulk, I will try to keep fat at bay by eating super clean with increased calories.0
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bump. I want to read these posts later, but there's a lot and I don't have much time!0
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Logically it would make sense that the body SHOULD just use calories in storage and no weight gain occur even if the intake is very low. So why is it that people on exercising and only netting 400 hundred calorie total for a day don't lose weight? The body's sole purpose is just to survive based on environmental stimulus. If it notices calorie deficit, hormonal changes dictate how energy is used. You're looking at it as if ALL protein ingested is being used for muscle when it isn't because if that was the case, then anyone who just eats high protein would practically gain muscle with no effort. And it' NOT a fact that your body CAN'T store energy other than fat. Glucose is an energy store and is stored in the muscle and liver.
Body builders who compete (and do it with enhancement) CAN'T add muscle on calorie deficit. In fact they LOSE it even with all the protein (and they eat loads of it) they ingest. If they can't even with enhancement, what makes you think the average person can without it?There's a lot of bro-science in this thread, with very little research to back it up.
All of you saying that you can't gain muscle mass whilst in calorie deficit need to explain why you need to eat more than your body consumes to get bigger muscles. If you have fat, your body an use that to burn for energy surely, which is how the body works. Lipid stores burnt through fat oxidisation to be converted into glucose, the body's fuel. Until your body is down to a very low fat percentage there is no scientific reason why you can't gain muscle mass while losing weight if you have enough of the right foods in you. Does this not make sense? I'm not trolling by the way, I'm just looking at it from a different perspective.
While there are a few people with a certain position that can do, even for them the gain is minimal at best.
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer/Group Fitness Instructor
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I don't mean to be argumentative in my reply, but is there anything other than anecdotal proof of this? As tigerswords says, muscle can't be produced from glucose or the intermediary storage glycogen, but if your diet includes enough protein for conversion to myosin/actin/etc for growth and other required fuel, why can't the oxidised fat be used to re-stock the muscles and other body parts with glucose while the protein is used to re-build broken down muscle?
Surely if you stick to your maintenance (including BMR and other exercise), you will still gain muscle. it's a fact that your body can't store energy it doesn't use other than in fat. A lot of what I've read says you should eat over maintenance to gain muscle, which makes no sense as maintenance includes the actual calories required to build muscle.
I suppose there might be reason for eating over maintenance to ensure you have headspace in case you under estimate your calories, but logically there is no reason to not stick to the energy your body needs.
Explanations have been posted. Examples and "real life" comparisons aren't explained by your theory. Again if what you stated made perfect sense, then there should be thousands of people on calorie deficits building muscle with no issue and that's simply not the case. It's okay to be wrong....................
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer/Group Fitness Instructor
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Ha! This is where I get to plug my favorite read on all this debated hoop la .. Burn The Fat, Feed The Muscle by Tom Venuto. There IS perfectly sound science to why you can't make gains in a deficit .. but the read is 300+ pages and well worth it.0 -
You cannot compare body builders to newbies like us, I workout with pro body builders ( they taught me in 2 months what it would have taking me years to learn on my own) Newbies can gain LM by losing their weight slow. The key is not to eat at a deficit on daily basis, just on a weeky, monthly basis etc., If I ate at a deficit only a daily basis I would have lost more than 1 lb per week.Without ready the 200 or so responses to this widely debated topic, I will just say that I decided to focus on fat loss before building mass because I wanted to see what I was working with and didn't really want to invest the time and discipline required to build while cutting. I think it's possible to do both, but it's very difficult and you will always be doing more of one than the other. Almost any bodybuilder will tell you that it is impossible to build mass while you're in a deficit; however, it is very possible to keep what you have if you're able to accept reasonable loses (1-2lbs per week). This is the route I have chosen. Also, when it is time to bulk, I will try to keep fat at bay by eating super clean with increased calories.0 -
You cannot compare body builders to newbies like us, I workout with pro body builders ( they taught me in 2 months what it would have taking me years to learn on my own) Newbies can gain LM by losing their weight slow. The key is not to eat at a deficit on daily basis, just on a weeky, monthly basis etc., If I ate at a deficit only a daily basis I would have lost more than 1 lb per week.Without ready the 200 or so responses to this widely debated topic, I will just say that I decided to focus on fat loss before building mass because I wanted to see what I was working with and didn't really want to invest the time and discipline required to build while cutting. I think it's possible to do both, but it's very difficult and you will always be doing more of one than the other. Almost any bodybuilder will tell you that it is impossible to build mass while you're in a deficit; however, it is very possible to keep what you have if you're able to accept reasonable loses (1-2lbs per week). This is the route I have chosen. Also, when it is time to bulk, I will try to keep fat at bay by eating super clean with increased calories.
Whooooa...hold on a second.
You never said ANYTHING about alternating deficit days etc! When someone says 'build muscle on a deficit'...they mean keeping your body at that deficit as most people losing weight do. If you had said this WAY back at the effin' beginning, we wouldn't have gone on for four pages.
Talk about comparing apples and oranges!!!
I am a FIRM believer in leangains...which is basically alternating high calorie lifting days with low calorie rest days (there's macro cycling as well, and manipulating fed/fasted states for max benefit...but that's not the point). It works...but it's nowhere near the same thing as the method implied by the generic statement 'building mass on a calorie deficit' that 95% of the newbies you're telling they can do it...will be using.
:grumble: :laugh:0 -
Chris, No its not, I didnt alternate, I ate the same amount of calories each and every day, I set my macros were I would lose 1lb per week, some weeks I lost 2, (though I didnt try it) From 287 lbs to 8% BF. and 204lbs I was eating at a deficit. There is no way a 42 year old man can lose 83 lbs in 13 months by not eating at a deficit.
You cannot compare body builders to newbies like us, I workout with pro body builders ( they taught me in 2 months what it would have taking me years to learn on my own) Newbies can gain LM by losing their weight slow. The key is not to eat at a deficit on daily basis, just on a weeky, monthly basis etc., If I ate at a deficit only a daily basis I would have lost more than 1 lb per week.Without ready the 200 or so responses to this widely debated topic, I will just say that I decided to focus on fat loss before building mass because I wanted to see what I was working with and didn't really want to invest the time and discipline required to build while cutting. I think it's possible to do both, but it's very difficult and you will always be doing more of one than the other. Almost any bodybuilder will tell you that it is impossible to build mass while you're in a deficit; however, it is very possible to keep what you have if you're able to accept reasonable loses (1-2lbs per week). This is the route I have chosen. Also, when it is time to bulk, I will try to keep fat at bay by eating super clean with increased calories.
Whooooa...hold on a second.
You never said ANYTHING about alternating deficit days etc! When someone says 'build muscle on a deficit'...they mean keeping your body at that deficit as most people losing weight do. If you had said this WAY back at the effin' beginning, we wouldn't have gone on for four pages.
Talk about comparing apples and oranges!!!
I am a FIRM believer in leangains...which is basically alternating high calorie lifting days with low calorie rest days (there's macro cycling as well, and manipulating fed/fasted states for max benefit...but that's not the point). It works...but it's nowhere near the same thing as the method implied by the generic statement 'building mass on a calorie deficit' that 95% of the newbies you're telling they can do it...will be using.
:grumble: :laugh:0 -
Bump0
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Chris, No its not, I didnt alternate, I ate the same amount of calories each and every day, I set my macros were I would lose 1lb per week, some weeks I lost 2, (though I didnt try it) From 287 lbs to 8% BF. and 204lbs I was eating at a deficit. There is no way a 42 year old man can lose 83 lbs in 13 months by not eating at a deficit.
You cannot compare body builders to newbies like us, I workout with pro body builders ( they taught me in 2 months what it would have taking me years to learn on my own) Newbies can gain LM by losing their weight slow. The key is not to eat at a deficit on daily basis, just on a weeky, monthly basis etc., If I ate at a deficit only a daily basis I would have lost more than 1 lb per week.Without ready the 200 or so responses to this widely debated topic, I will just say that I decided to focus on fat loss before building mass because I wanted to see what I was working with and didn't really want to invest the time and discipline required to build while cutting. I think it's possible to do both, but it's very difficult and you will always be doing more of one than the other. Almost any bodybuilder will tell you that it is impossible to build mass while you're in a deficit; however, it is very possible to keep what you have if you're able to accept reasonable loses (1-2lbs per week). This is the route I have chosen. Also, when it is time to bulk, I will try to keep fat at bay by eating super clean with increased calories.
Whooooa...hold on a second.
You never said ANYTHING about alternating deficit days etc! When someone says 'build muscle on a deficit'...they mean keeping your body at that deficit as most people losing weight do. If you had said this WAY back at the effin' beginning, we wouldn't have gone on for four pages.
Talk about comparing apples and oranges!!!
I am a FIRM believer in leangains...which is basically alternating high calorie lifting days with low calorie rest days (there's macro cycling as well, and manipulating fed/fasted states for max benefit...but that's not the point). It works...but it's nowhere near the same thing as the method implied by the generic statement 'building mass on a calorie deficit' that 95% of the newbies you're telling they can do it...will be using.
:grumble: :laugh:
Soooo...what did this mean???The key is not to eat at a deficit on daily basis, just on a weeky, monthly basis etc., If I ate at a deficit only a daily basis I would have lost more than 1 lb per week.0 -
Wow, I can't believe this argument rages on!!
I haven't really caught up on all of this thread, so apologies if this has been said.
I think the problem with this question (and the million variations that have been asked before) is that build muscle vs lose weight or in bodybuilding parlance, bulk vs cuts has nothing to do with NOT LIFTING WEIGHTS.... There seems to be a misconception among many of the women that the bulk vs cut cycle actually equates to lifting vs non-lifting, but it doesn't. Bodybuilders, powerlifters, olympic lifters might go through bulk and cut cycles, but they still lift weights the whole time!@!!0 -
It means i ate the same amount of calories each and every day, and I used the scale every week to tell me if I was at a deficit or not and adjusted my Calories/ macros once a month accordingly. By the way did Alan Aragon get back to you yet??????????? Or Didn't YOU like his answer??????????
Chris, No its not, I didnt alternate, I ate the same amount of calories each and every day, I set my macros were I would lose 1lb per week, some weeks I lost 2, (though I didnt try it) From 287 lbs to 8% BF. and 204lbs I was eating at a deficit. There is no way a 42 year old man can lose 83 lbs in 13 months by not eating at a deficit.
You cannot compare body builders to newbies like us, I workout with pro body builders ( they taught me in 2 months what it would have taking me years to learn on my own) Newbies can gain LM by losing their weight slow. The key is not to eat at a deficit on daily basis, just on a weeky, monthly basis etc., If I ate at a deficit only a daily basis I would have lost more than 1 lb per week.Without ready the 200 or so responses to this widely debated topic, I will just say that I decided to focus on fat loss before building mass because I wanted to see what I was working with and didn't really want to invest the time and discipline required to build while cutting. I think it's possible to do both, but it's very difficult and you will always be doing more of one than the other. Almost any bodybuilder will tell you that it is impossible to build mass while you're in a deficit; however, it is very possible to keep what you have if you're able to accept reasonable loses (1-2lbs per week). This is the route I have chosen. Also, when it is time to bulk, I will try to keep fat at bay by eating super clean with increased calories.
Whooooa...hold on a second.
You never said ANYTHING about alternating deficit days etc! When someone says 'build muscle on a deficit'...they mean keeping your body at that deficit as most people losing weight do. If you had said this WAY back at the effin' beginning, we wouldn't have gone on for four pages.
Talk about comparing apples and oranges!!!
I am a FIRM believer in leangains...which is basically alternating high calorie lifting days with low calorie rest days (there's macro cycling as well, and manipulating fed/fasted states for max benefit...but that's not the point). It works...but it's nowhere near the same thing as the method implied by the generic statement 'building mass on a calorie deficit' that 95% of the newbies you're telling they can do it...will be using.
:grumble: :laugh:
Soooo...what did this mean???The key is not to eat at a deficit on daily basis, just on a weeky, monthly basis etc., If I ate at a deficit only a daily basis I would have lost more than 1 lb per week.
:laugh: :laugh: 0 -
It means I used the scale every week to tell me if I was at a deficit ir not? and adjuste my Calories once a month accordingly. By the way did Alan Aragon get back to you yet??????????? Or Didn't YOU like his answer??????????
Chris, No its not, I didnt alternate, I ate the same amount of calories each and every day, I set my macros were I would lose 1lb per week, some weeks I lost 2, (though I didnt try it) From 287 lbs to 8% BF. and 204lbs I was eating at a deficit. There is no way a 42 year old man can lose 83 lbs in 13 months by not eating at a deficit.
You cannot compare body builders to newbies like us, I workout with pro body builders ( they taught me in 2 months what it would have taking me years to learn on my own) Newbies can gain LM by losing their weight slow. The key is not to eat at a deficit on daily basis, just on a weeky, monthly basis etc., If I ate at a deficit only a daily basis I would have lost more than 1 lb per week.Without ready the 200 or so responses to this widely debated topic, I will just say that I decided to focus on fat loss before building mass because I wanted to see what I was working with and didn't really want to invest the time and discipline required to build while cutting. I think it's possible to do both, but it's very difficult and you will always be doing more of one than the other. Almost any bodybuilder will tell you that it is impossible to build mass while you're in a deficit; however, it is very possible to keep what you have if you're able to accept reasonable loses (1-2lbs per week). This is the route I have chosen. Also, when it is time to bulk, I will try to keep fat at bay by eating super clean with increased calories.
Whooooa...hold on a second.
You never said ANYTHING about alternating deficit days etc! When someone says 'build muscle on a deficit'...they mean keeping your body at that deficit as most people losing weight do. If you had said this WAY back at the effin' beginning, we wouldn't have gone on for four pages.
Talk about comparing apples and oranges!!!
I am a FIRM believer in leangains...which is basically alternating high calorie lifting days with low calorie rest days (there's macro cycling as well, and manipulating fed/fasted states for max benefit...but that's not the point). It works...but it's nowhere near the same thing as the method implied by the generic statement 'building mass on a calorie deficit' that 95% of the newbies you're telling they can do it...will be using.
:grumble: :laugh:
Soooo...what did this mean???The key is not to eat at a deficit on daily basis, just on a weeky, monthly basis etc., If I ate at a deficit only a daily basis I would have lost more than 1 lb per week. :laugh: :laugh:
I didn't send the PM yet...not because I don't want to (I will...I'm always interested, with a far more open mind than you might think lol). It's just that I want my thoughts on it more ordered than they are, and I've had a lot going on.
Back on topic...that's an interesting way to say it...but now that I know what you mean I can make sense of it. I don't think anyone else would have taken it that way either.
Interesting method.0 -
Well I wasnt going to use a cookie cutter, one size fits all method like MFP. BMR. TDEE etc. :bigsmile:
It means I used the scale every week to tell me if I was at a deficit ir not? and adjuste my Calories once a month accordingly. By the way did Alan Aragon get back to you yet??????????? Or Didn't YOU like his answer??????????
Chris, No its not, I didnt alternate, I ate the same amount of calories each and every day, I set my macros were I would lose 1lb per week, some weeks I lost 2, (though I didnt try it) From 287 lbs to 8% BF. and 204lbs I was eating at a deficit. There is no way a 42 year old man can lose 83 lbs in 13 months by not eating at a deficit.
You cannot compare body builders to newbies like us, I workout with pro body builders ( they taught me in 2 months what it would have taking me years to learn on my own) Newbies can gain LM by losing their weight slow. The key is not to eat at a deficit on daily basis, just on a weeky, monthly basis etc., If I ate at a deficit only a daily basis I would have lost more than 1 lb per week.Without ready the 200 or so responses to this widely debated topic, I will just say that I decided to focus on fat loss before building mass because I wanted to see what I was working with and didn't really want to invest the time and discipline required to build while cutting. I think it's possible to do both, but it's very difficult and you will always be doing more of one than the other. Almost any bodybuilder will tell you that it is impossible to build mass while you're in a deficit; however, it is very possible to keep what you have if you're able to accept reasonable loses (1-2lbs per week). This is the route I have chosen. Also, when it is time to bulk, I will try to keep fat at bay by eating super clean with increased calories.
Whooooa...hold on a second.
You never said ANYTHING about alternating deficit days etc! When someone says 'build muscle on a deficit'...they mean keeping your body at that deficit as most people losing weight do. If you had said this WAY back at the effin' beginning, we wouldn't have gone on for four pages.
Talk about comparing apples and oranges!!!
I am a FIRM believer in leangains...which is basically alternating high calorie lifting days with low calorie rest days (there's macro cycling as well, and manipulating fed/fasted states for max benefit...but that's not the point). It works...but it's nowhere near the same thing as the method implied by the generic statement 'building mass on a calorie deficit' that 95% of the newbies you're telling they can do it...will be using.
:grumble: :laugh:
Soooo...what did this mean???The key is not to eat at a deficit on daily basis, just on a weeky, monthly basis etc., If I ate at a deficit only a daily basis I would have lost more than 1 lb per week. :laugh: :laugh:
I didn't send the PM yet...not because I don't want to (I will...I'm always interested, with a far more open mind than you might think lol). It's just that I want my thoughts on it more ordered than they are, and I've had a lot going on.
Back on topic...that's an interesting way to say it...but now that I know what you mean I can make sense of it. I don't think anyone else would have taken it that way either.
Interesting method.0 -
To the person who wanted to know why the body won't build muscle (typically, or much... I believe newbie gains can occur, maybe 2-3 pounds of lean mass over 6 months, in a calorie deficit based on what I believe I've done, even though my measure of body fat was crude, it should be consistent, and based on every source I've read saying newbie gains but not really giving numbers):
It costs upwards of 3000 calories to build a pound of muscle, and that pound of muscle is about twice as metabolically active as a pound of fat. So basically, the body doesn't want to make any more muscle than is completely necessary, and when energy is low, the body will use muscle for energy, even though it gives less energy than fat because that muscle costs the body more to maintain and is this seen as an evolutionary disadvantage. The body wants to have as little muscle as it can. This is where esistance training comes in. It is how you tell your body it needs to keep its muscle. However, since your body just sees a low energy state, it is not going to build more metabolically active muscle. My untestable hypothesis for why newbie gains occur is that the body sees beginning to weightlift as enough of a stimulus to make a little more muscle seem necessary. It makes sense to me that as long as the deficit is somewhat small, your body can prioritize muscle because the resistance training is presenting a new threat and the calorie deficit isn't all THAT intimidating. But at some point, you stop being able to convince your body that muscle is more important than fat. It ignores your pleas and tries to make you fat. But you triumph.
Party on.
That devolved pretty quick.0 -
Logically it would make sense that the body SHOULD just use calories in storage and no weight gain occur even if the intake is very low. So why is it that people on exercising and only netting 400 hundred calorie total for a day don't lose weight? The body's sole purpose is just to survive based on environmental stimulus. If it notices calorie deficit, hormonal changes dictate how energy is used. You're looking at it as if ALL protein ingested is being used for muscle when it isn't because if that was the case, then anyone who just eats high protein would practically gain muscle with no effort. And it' NOT a fact that your body CAN'T store energy other than fat. Glucose is an energy store and is stored in the muscle and liver.
Body builders who compete (and do it with enhancement) CAN'T add muscle on calorie deficit. In fact they LOSE it even with all the protein (and they eat loads of it) they ingest. If they can't even with enhancement, what makes you think the average person can without it?There's a lot of bro-science in this thread, with very little research to back it up.
All of you saying that you can't gain muscle mass whilst in calorie deficit need to explain why you need to eat more than your body consumes to get bigger muscles. If you have fat, your body an use that to burn for energy surely, which is how the body works. Lipid stores burnt through fat oxidisation to be converted into glucose, the body's fuel. Until your body is down to a very low fat percentage there is no scientific reason why you can't gain muscle mass while losing weight if you have enough of the right foods in you. Does this not make sense? I'm not trolling by the way, I'm just looking at it from a different perspective.
While there are a few people with a certain position that can do, even for them the gain is minimal at best.
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I don't mean to be argumentative in my reply, but is there anything other than anecdotal proof of this? As tigerswords says, muscle can't be produced from glucose or the intermediary storage glycogen, but if your diet includes enough protein for conversion to myosin/actin/etc for growth and other required fuel, why can't the oxidised fat be used to re-stock the muscles and other body parts with glucose while the protein is used to re-build broken down muscle?
Surely if you stick to your maintenance (including BMR and other exercise), you will still gain muscle. it's a fact that your body can't store energy it doesn't use other than in fat. A lot of what I've read says you should eat over maintenance to gain muscle, which makes no sense as maintenance includes the actual calories required to build muscle.
I suppose there might be reason for eating over maintenance to ensure you have headspace in case you under estimate your calories, but logically there is no reason to not stick to the energy your body needs.
Explanations have been posted. Examples and "real life" comparisons aren't explained by your theory. Again if what you stated made perfect sense, then there should be thousands of people on calorie deficits building muscle with no issue and that's simply not the case. It's okay to be wrong....................
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Ha! This is where I get to plug my favorite read on all this debated hoop la .. Burn The Fat, Feed The Muscle by Tom Venuto. There IS perfectly sound science to why you can't make gains in a deficit .. but the read is 300+ pages and well worth it.
I still see no sound evidence to be honest, but I'll happily accept that there is belief that on a deficit you can't gain a large quantity of muscle, but I still do not understand the need for a calorie excess. Why give the body more that it needs to live, grow and survive. All you do is end up fat surely? The bulk/cut/bulk is engrained into the mentality of everyone in the industry when realistically I see no evidence to support the need to put on excess fat to gain muscle.
It's ok to think differently....... 0 -
@flyuk protocols like leangains try to minimize fat gain by only eating a caloric surplus on training days and eating at a deficit on rest days... But the principle is still there, your body won't build new tissue when it is in a catabolic state because it doesn't have enough energy to sustain itself. It's like if you are living off credit and buy something frivolous with a monthly subscription. Never mind that people do such stupid stuff, but our bodies are smarter than us.
Basically, fat is evolutionarily favorable so the body will prioritize fat in a caloric surplus. Training helps to partition the energy towards muscle, but you're fighting evolution.It's okay to think differently.
It's okay to have different opinions, but what is and isn't true is a matter of absolute truth. Since most of us believe in an objective truth, someone is right and someone is wrong. Since all you've said is "I don't believe this" with no argument or evidence, I vote for you.0 -
Like stated above, it's okay to think differently, but again if the theory you maintain is correct, then gaining muscle on calorie deficit SHOULDN'T be an issue and it is. Even at maintenance it's practically improbable.I still see no sound evidence to be honest, but I'll happily accept that there is belief that on a deficit you can't gain a large quantity of muscle, but I still do not understand the need for a calorie excess. Why give the body more that it needs to live, grow and survive. All you do is end up fat surely? The bulk/cut/bulk is engrained into the mentality of everyone in the industry when realistically I see no evidence to support the need to put on excess fat to gain muscle.
It's ok to think differently.......
Here's a study that shows that building muscle on a ketogenic diet (which is essentially HIGH PROTEIN) doesn't work even if the calories are at maintenance because of hormones not being activated.
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/578951-ketogenic-diets-not-good-for-muscle-building?hl=ketogenic+diet+not+good#posts-8235696
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Didn't we already have this exact debate already?0
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You cannot compare body builders to newbies like us, I workout with pro body builders ( they taught me in 2 months what it would have taking me years to learn on my own) Newbies can gain LM by losing their weight slow. The key is not to eat at a deficit on daily basis, just on a weeky, monthly basis etc., If I ate at a deficit only a daily basis I would have lost more than 1 lb per week.Without ready the 200 or so responses to this widely debated topic, I will just say that I decided to focus on fat loss before building mass because I wanted to see what I was working with and didn't really want to invest the time and discipline required to build while cutting. I think it's possible to do both, but it's very difficult and you will always be doing more of one than the other. Almost any bodybuilder will tell you that it is impossible to build mass while you're in a deficit; however, it is very possible to keep what you have if you're able to accept reasonable loses (1-2lbs per week). This is the route I have chosen. Also, when it is time to bulk, I will try to keep fat at bay by eating super clean with increased calories.
I see your point, and in all fairness I will admit that over the course of about three years and 50lbs of weight loss that I have almost always been at a deficit (as determined by typical maintenance calculators) and gained mass; however, I attribute these to newbie gains. In addition, my deficits were not the same as they are now ... I had clean low days mixed in with LOTS of cheat days and drinking binges It would be fair to say that until I was educated I employed an impromptu zig-zag method .. lol. At this point in my training there are simply no more newbie gains to be had and I know that I will either have to follow a traditional cut/clean bulk (as opposed to eating anything and everything) style of training or learn some pretty complicated zig-zag/carb cycling methods if I want to gain significant mass and keep the BF in the 8-12% range.
I would also like to kick in that I learned more about about getting a lean and muscular physique when I started following fitness models more, as opposed to 'bodybuilders'. These guys appear to be much more into lean gains and have mastered staying cut and strong all year long, IMO. It's a bit of a paradigm shift that might be better for the average Joe ...0 -
Like stated above, it's okay to think differently, but again if the theory you maintain is correct, then gaining muscle on calorie deficit SHOULDN'T be an issue and it is. Even at maintenance it's practically improbable.I still see no sound evidence to be honest, but I'll happily accept that there is belief that on a deficit you can't gain a large quantity of muscle, but I still do not understand the need for a calorie excess. Why give the body more that it needs to live, grow and survive. All you do is end up fat surely? The bulk/cut/bulk is engrained into the mentality of everyone in the industry when realistically I see no evidence to support the need to put on excess fat to gain muscle.
It's ok to think differently.......
Here's a study that shows that building muscle on a ketogenic diet (which is essentially HIGH PROTEIN) doesn't work even if the calories are at maintenance because of hormones not being activated.
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/578951-ketogenic-diets-not-good-for-muscle-building?hl=ketogenic+diet+not+good#posts-8235696
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer/Group Fitness Instructor
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
In theory, even at maintenance you can't put on mass, if you're more experienced. What about above maintenance?
(talking about on a ketogenic diet)
In theory, however you have to remember that the inaccuracies of calorie counting mean that at maintenence unless you are freakishly obsessed with accuracy (and have a body that has a rock solid set point), you are going to actually undulate between surplus and deficit day to day and week to week.
It will be a horribly inefficient process, but you should be able to gain muscle and lose fat simultanously at maintenence because of the natural calorie cycling of counting errors.
Like I said though, a horribly inefficent process that will only appear to do anything over a very long term.0 -
For the record, I contribute my lean muscle gains while on a deficit to newbie gains aswell, but like I mentioned before 90% + of MFP members are newbies or experienced lifters who took a long period of time off.
You cannot compare body builders to newbies like us, I workout with pro body builders ( they taught me in 2 months what it would have taking me years to learn on my own) Newbies can gain LM by losing their weight slow. The key is not to eat at a deficit on daily basis, just on a weeky, monthly basis etc., If I ate at a deficit only a daily basis I would have lost more than 1 lb per week.Without ready the 200 or so responses to this widely debated topic, I will just say that I decided to focus on fat loss before building mass because I wanted to see what I was working with and didn't really want to invest the time and discipline required to build while cutting. I think it's possible to do both, but it's very difficult and you will always be doing more of one than the other. Almost any bodybuilder will tell you that it is impossible to build mass while you're in a deficit; however, it is very possible to keep what you have if you're able to accept reasonable loses (1-2lbs per week). This is the route I have chosen. Also, when it is time to bulk, I will try to keep fat at bay by eating super clean with increased calories.
I see your point, and in all fairness I will admit that over the course of about three years and 50lbs of weight loss that I have almost always been at a deficit (as determined by typical maintenance calculators) and gained mass; however, I attribute these to newbie gains. In addition, my deficits were not the same as they are now ... I had clean low days mixed in with LOTS of cheat days and drinking binges It would be fair to say that until I was educated I employed an impromptu zig-zag method .. lol. At this point in my training there are simply no more newbie gains to be had and I know that I will either have to follow a traditional cut/clean bulk (as opposed to eating anything and everything) style of training or learn some pretty complicated zig-zag/carb cycling methods if I want to gain significant mass and keep the BF in the 8-12% range.
I would also like to kick in that I learned more about about getting a lean and muscular physique when I started following fitness models more, as opposed to 'bodybuilders'. These guys appear to be much more into lean gains and have mastered staying cut and strong all year long, IMO. It's a bit of a paradigm shift that might be better for the average Joe ...0 -
Chris or anyone else, I would love for someone to point out just one MFP. member out of the thousands of success stories on this site that did not lift during their weight loss or have visable abs prior to gaining their weight, but did once they dropped their weight. Just one example. It shouldnt be that hard considering we gain so much muscle just by being lazy, eating bad, getting fat and carrying it around for a while. Thanks,0
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Are you speaking about maintaining current mass while on keto? If you are, then yes I believe you can maintain if your exercise and nutrition are right.In theory, even at maintenance you can't put on mass, if you're more experienced. What about above maintenance?
(talking about on a ketogenic diet)
To take it a step further, men who do HRT gain muscle because of "reactivating" their testosterone levels again. Goes to show that hormonal response does make a difference. I know that as the years have passed, I've slowly started to lose muscle. I'm not as "full" as I used to be, I have to eat a little less and my strength has diminished slowly. 10 years ago I could incline press 225 with no problem and now it's a struggle with 205. Same with my squats, leg press and deadlifts. I accept it though and unless I decide to do HRT, I'll continue to accept that as I age my muscle will slowly diminish.
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Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
While what you said may be true about age Niner, I refuse to accept it!! LOL That why I'm doing SL 5x5 at age 61! :laugh:0
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Chris or anyone else, I would love for someone to point out just one MFP. member out of the thousands of success stories on this site that did not lift during their weight loss or have visable abs prior to gaining their weight, but did once they dropped their weight. Just one example. It shouldnt be that hard considering we gain so much muscle just by being lazy, eating bad, getting fat and carrying it around for a while. Thanks,
Say this again? You want us to find someone who didn't have visible abs before gaining weight, did not lift, but had visible abs after??
Uhh, why?0
This discussion has been closed.
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