Lance Armstrong admits to cheating.
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i wonder if the Cult of Armstrong STILL thinks he is innocent? there has to be little doubt now right?0
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i wonder if the Cult of Armstrong STILL thinks he is innocent? there has to be little doubt now right?
Nearly didn't post about this as I fully expected the fur to start flying!0 -
awfully quiet...maybe they have finally seen the light?
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Doubtful. They will defend him if he comes clean.0
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I'm still up in the air.i wonder if the Cult of Armstrong STILL thinks he is innocent? there has to be little doubt now right?
What has been proven?0 -
Some light reading-
The U.S. Anti-Doping Agency on Wednesday distributed its 202-page “Reasoned Decision,” which outlines its case against Lance Armstrong. Included in the document are never-before-published analyses of Armstrong 2009 and 2010 blood profiles, as well as testimony from 26 witnesses, including George Hincapie, Levi Leipheimer and Christian Vande Velde.
http://velonews.competitor.com/files/2012/10/Reasoned-Decision.pdf0 -
I forget already... the organization which can actually take away his medals... I presume that's the next gateway in his fall from grace?
If they do, *then* will people believe?0 -
i don't think i would consider myself the "Cult of Armstrong" but it is now very hard to believe he didn't cheat after George, Andreu and Jonathan Vaughters come forward. Assuming he cheated i wish he would come clean, people would just forgive him and it would be all over.0
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Since when is doping in cycling news? These guys have been put on just about every chemical out there.
OMG HE CHEATED!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Yeah...along with EVERYONE else.0 -
I don't think it matters at this point. He's been tried and convicted in the court of public opinion.0
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so if he's innocent hes going to let them strip him of everything he's won? nobody would do that. nobody would give you their legacy.
he is giving up the fight against the government, who has almost unlimited time and resources. the government that can subpoena him to appear in court when ever they want.
Lance's time is worth something, and i think he's just tired of fighting.0 -
I don't think it matters at this point. He's been tried and convicted in the court of public opinion.
I dunno. There's value in the truth. That the public came to the conclusion before all of the facts were out doesn't really affect his guilt or innocence.
If he did it (and it certainly looks that way) I think his refusal to own his actions is far more damning than the actual doping. One can kind of understand why he drugged, given that was the state of the sport and one had to do it to compete.0 -
I dunno. There's value in the truth. That the public came to the conclusion before all of the facts were out doesn't really affect his guilt or innocence.
If he did it (and it certainly looks that way) I think his refusal to own his actions is far more damning than the actual doping. One can kind of understand why he drugged, given that was the state of the sport and one had to do it to compete.
I disagree. It's very easy for people to cast out his accomplishments based on drug use. The general public doesn't really recognize that chemical help doesn't suddenly make you a superstar, that you still have to work like crazy for it AND have a lot of natural ability to begin with to compete at that level.
Same goes for steroids, folks like to say things like 'well if I were juicing I could do that too so it doesn't count'. No you couldn't. I don't care how much gear you go on you're not going to be like Coan or Efferding.
But people don't accept that. They want to believe that they have the ability to be a superstar and if they were just willing to break their morals and go on gear they'd be amazing too.
They're basically Uncle Rico from Napoleon Dynamite.0 -
I dunno. There's value in the truth. That the public came to the conclusion before all of the facts were out doesn't really affect his guilt or innocence.
If he did it (and it certainly looks that way) I think his refusal to own his actions is far more damning than the actual doping. One can kind of understand why he drugged, given that was the state of the sport and one had to do it to compete.
I disagree. It's very easy for people to cast out his accomplishments based on drug use. The general public doesn't really recognize that chemical help doesn't suddenly make you a superstar, that you still have to work like crazy for it AND have a lot of natural ability to begin with to compete at that level.
Same goes for steroids, folks like to say things like 'well if I were juicing I could do that too so it doesn't count'. No you couldn't. I don't care how much gear you go on you're not going to be like Coan or Efferding.
But people don't accept that. They want to believe that they have the ability to be a superstar and if they were just willing to break their morals and go on gear they'd be amazing too.
They're basically Uncle Rico from Napoleon Dynamite.
Sure he did a f-ton of hard work. So did everyone else at the top of that sport, then and now.
Obviously he did. But he *also* cheated. And worse, he won't admit it in the face of what's turning out to be overwhelming evidence.
As I said, he did it to compete. Fine. He won't own it after the fact? Not so stellar.0 -
Sure he did a f-ton of hard work. So did everyone else at the top of that sport, then and now.
Obviously he did. But he *also* cheated. And worse, he won't admit it in the face of what's turning out to be overwhelming evidence.
As I said, he did it to compete. Fine. He won't own it after the fact? Not so stellar.
That's a valid point, and I'm not defending his actions; but I do understand them in the face of the fact that with such admission the public would largely discount his successes.0 -
Sure he did a f-ton of hard work. So did everyone else at the top of that sport, then and now.
Obviously he did. But he *also* cheated. And worse, he won't admit it in the face of what's turning out to be overwhelming evidence.
As I said, he did it to compete. Fine. He won't own it after the fact? Not so stellar.
That's a valid point, and I'm not defending his actions; but I do understand them in the face of the fact that with such admission the public would largely discount his successes.
The public *should* discount his successes. He cheated to accomplish them. Yes, the game was fixed. But so what? There is no value in a sport in which the only way to compete is to cheat, and those who stubbornly don't cheat have no chance at all.
To be clear: his successes are meaningless because he cheated to accomplish them. He's a bad *person* because he won't own it.0 -
I disagree. It's very easy for people to cast out his accomplishments based on drug use. The general public doesn't really recognize that chemical help doesn't suddenly make you a superstar, that you still have to work like crazy for it AND have a lot of natural ability to begin with to compete at that level.
I can't speak for the "general public", but I don't see it that way at all. Barry Bonds' home run record is worthless in my opinion because he never would have hit that many homers if he hadn't been juicing. Are steroids the reason he could hit home runs? No. But how many balls that traveled 402 feet would have gone 395 feet without the juice?
Barry Bonds is a textbook example of the problem with PEDs. He was a GREAT ballplayer in Pittsburgh when he was hitting 30 HRs a year. But he never could have hit 70 HRs in 1992.0 -
The public *should* discount his successes. He cheated to accomplish them. Yes, the game was fixed. But so what? There is no value in a sport in which the only way to compete is to cheat, and those who stubbornly don't cheat have no chance at all.
To be clear: his successes are meaningless because he cheated to accomplish them. He's a bad *person* because he won't own it.
I'm more of a 'if you aint cheating you aint trying' type of mindset. I think that as the level of play advances completely ruling out cheating is impossible and that if you want to compete at that level you have to do what's necessary to win.0 -
I can't speak for the "general public", but I don't see it that way at all. Barry Bonds' home run record is worthless in my opinion because he never would have hit that many homers if he hadn't been juicing. Are steroids the reason he could hit home runs? No. But how many balls that traveled 402 feet would have gone 395 feet without the juice?
Barry Bonds is a textbook example of the problem with PEDs. He was a GREAT ballplayer in Pittsburgh when he was hitting 30 HRs a year. But he never could have hit 70 HRs in 1992.
But what about all the other players in the sport that are on gear? Do they not deserve that kind of criticism because they didn't hit a record? The only reason Bond's had so many people coming after him was because of his profile. If he had stayed at his previous skill level he could've done more juice than a Dr. Oz marathon.0 -
The public *should* discount his successes. He cheated to accomplish them. Yes, the game was fixed. But so what? There is no value in a sport in which the only way to compete is to cheat, and those who stubbornly don't cheat have no chance at all.
To be clear: his successes are meaningless because he cheated to accomplish them. He's a bad *person* because he won't own it.
I'm more of a 'if you aint cheating you aint trying' type of mindset. I think that as the level of play advances completely ruling out cheating is impossible and that if you want to compete at that level you have to do what's necessary to win.
Well that, like my post, is a question of personal ethics.
But consider: in order to win, one must cheat, *and not get caught*. If you're caught, you have failed. Since he's been caught, he failed to do what was ultimately necessary. A winner? Nope. Caught.0 -
Well that, like my post, is a question of personal ethics.
But consider: in order to win, one must cheat, *and not get caught*. If you're caught, you have failed. Since he's been caught, he failed to do what was ultimately necessary. A winner? Nope. Caught.
In that, you and I are in total agreement.
To the point of my ethics though, my grandfather used to have a saying: "If she catches you [cheating]...deny it. If she saw you in the act...deny it. If she has pictures and video evidence...deny it. If she has a gun to your head...deny it. If you're hanging by a noose, use the last tendrils of life you have in you to shake your head 'It wasn't me!'"
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I am a huge Lance fan.
I am sure he cheated, I no longer care about that anymore though.
The good that he has done for cancer victims, outweighs any cheating he has done. In my opinion.0 -
But what about all the other players in the sport that are on gear? Do they not deserve that kind of criticism because they didn't hit a record? The only reason Bond's had so many people coming after him was because of his profile. If he had stayed at his previous skill level he could've done more juice than a Dr. Oz marathon.
I'm not sure where I said that lesser skilled players didn't deserve the same level of criticism. I was just using Bonds as an example. Any player caught using PEDs should be kicked out of the sport IMHO.0 -
I apologize if I came off as attacking you; I was just trying to make a point. We really only go after people who are successful. If everyone's using, the only folks that get the punishment for it are the ones who are successful. Then there's all the taking back victories and crap and the whole sport suffers.I'm not sure where I said that lesser skilled players didn't deserve the same level of criticism. I was just using Bonds as an example. Any player caught using PEDs should be kicked out of the sport IMHO.0 -
I apologize if I came off as attacking you; I was just trying to make a point. We really only go after people who are successful. If everyone's using, the only folks that get the punishment for it are the ones who are successful. Then there's all the taking back victories and crap and the whole sport suffers.I'm not sure where I said that lesser skilled players didn't deserve the same level of criticism. I was just using Bonds as an example. Any player caught using PEDs should be kicked out of the sport IMHO.
The sport suffers because people cheat, not because victories are taken back when someone is found cheating. Instead of accepting cheating wouldn't you think that it would be better for the sport to disciipline the cheaters so that cheating becomes less attractive of an option and let the athletes who don't use a fair chance to win?
And while I know that methods will be found to avoid testing postive, if blood samples are stored and tests become more sensitive then athletes will think about future discipline even if they don't get caught immediately.0 -
Since when is doping in cycling news? These guys have been put on just about every chemical out there.
OMG HE CHEATED!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Yeah...along with EVERYONE else.
^^ the people who came in 2nd & 3rd in those races, Yeah, they cheated, too!0 -
All of the racers use whatever they can to get an edge.........he just happened to get caught because he's one of the best and was tested constantly.
He's not admitting to cheating, he's probably just tired of beating a dead horse.0 -
I am a huge Lance fan.
I am sure he cheated, I no longer care about that anymore though.
The good that he has done for cancer victims, outweighs any cheating he has done. In my opinion.
agreed.
he's trying to compete at an elite level, where several other guys are "cheating".
if you aren't okay with drug use in sports, you should probably quit watching them alltogether, because every team in nearly every sport has athletes that use drugs to become BETTER.
We like the results of the drug use. More homeruns. Bigger lineman. faster times...............but no one wants to admit that they support it...0 -
I apologize if I came off as attacking you; I was just trying to make a point. We really only go after people who are successful. If everyone's using, the only folks that get the punishment for it are the ones who are successful. Then there's all the taking back victories and crap and the whole sport suffers.I'm not sure where I said that lesser skilled players didn't deserve the same level of criticism. I was just using Bonds as an example. Any player caught using PEDs should be kicked out of the sport IMHO.
:drinker:0 -
We like the results of the drug use. More homeruns. Bigger lineman. faster times...............but no one wants to admit that they support it...
Not everyone sees it that way.0
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