Just watched Forks Over Knives...
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I haven't read all the posts, so I apologize for the duplicate if anything....
Love the movie. Been veggie for about 5 years. Movie made me think about being vegan. I don't eat dairy products, only eat eggs. Would love to consider being vegan, although I'm nervous about protein intake
(I eat eggs every morning and in my post workout shakes). I try to avoid soy and wheat as well, so I'm in dire straits.
Try going veggie, then if that works, try vegan if you like
Some people go cold turkey to veganism even.
Other movies to ponder are Gerson's Miracle and Food Inc I don't remember all of the great movies I have watched about the food industry, but there's some interestingly disturbing information out there!
Thanks. I appreciate the advice. Someone else mentioned Food Inc. I will look for that as well. I definitely think starting off slow is the best way. Don't think I can do cold turkey, and it has been a while since I had cut meat out of my diet. Just wondering what you could substitute for the eggs....0 -
I've watched Forks over Knives and I'm vegan. I was already leaning in that direction before I watched it and it just solidified my reasons for wanting to transition from being vegetarian to a vegan. I have the cookbook and there are plenty of recipes in there. I'm still working on getting enough protein. Just today I was researching on getting protein powder to add to my food and smoothies to get more protein. But there are plenty of recipes in there. It can be challenging at first getting enough calories because when eating lots of fiber you fill up quickly, so I suggest you eat every two hours so you won't get to the place where you are not getting enough to eat because your full from the meals.
FYI: Some people really love hating on vegans, but I don't let it bother me. Somebody told me today that since I don't eat meat, I have nothing to eat, which is utterly ridiculous.0 -
I watched Vegicated on December 10, 2012 and haven't eaten meat since. Other than some whey protein powder and skim milk powder and cream cheese in my kitchen that will be wasted if I don't eat it, I've been vegan too, cold turkey. I just makes me cry to think about it. My husband suggested that I stop watching documentaries because he prefers to have a mentally healthy wife, and I took his advice. As for the change in diet? Honestly I love it! I love food, I am eating well and I find it all rather easy. I eat a variety of meals that are delicious every day. Yesterday I put seitan in the oven in my cast iron frying pan for longer than I intended with some vegan marg. I threw some peanuts and almonds on top too. We had a baked potato and roasted brussel sprouts and cauliflower, (my husband had his with a pork chop) It was delicious!!! Sometimes I make a steak stirfry in one pan and a tofu stirfry in the other; I find cooking for my husband and me at the same time easy. (My husband has kindly asked me not to contaminate his steak with my tofu spoon lol)
As for health, I don't know, I think eating less meat and more veg and fibre might be a good plan but I haven't noticed any big change in how I feel. I haven't lost any weight either since November.
Wow! I'm impressed...and that's another vote for Vegicated. I'm glad you are successful with your diet, and not contaminating your husband's food. Your meal sounds good (minus the cauliflower), and I think I might have to borrow it. Plus, I'm sure if it were as unhealthy for you as some claim it to be, then you certainly would have seen/experienced complications by now.0 -
I've watched Forks over Knives and I'm vegan. I was already leaning in that direction before I watched it and it just solidified my reasons for wanting to transition from being vegetarian to a vegan. I have the cookbook and there are plenty of recipes in there. I'm still working on getting enough protein. Just today I was researching on getting protein powder to add to my food and smoothies to get more protein. But there are plenty of recipes in there. It can be challenging at first getting enough calories because when eating lots of fiber you fill up quickly, so I suggest you eat every two hours so you won't get to the place where you are not getting enough to eat because your full from the meals.
FYI: Some people really love hating on vegans, but I don't let it bother me. Somebody told me today that since I don't eat meat, I have nothing to eat, which is utterly ridiculous.
I really do appreciate your post. Do you mean the Forks Over Knives cookbook, or the China Study cookbook. lol at having nothing to eat. Where do people get this stuff from?0 -
RE: The China Study and the site I was referenced to with criticisms. I was perusing the comments after reading the blog, and turns out not only did Campbell respond to the criticisms, but there has been a tennis match between the two unfolding. Here's some (long) but extremely interesting info tied into a comment I found on the page:I like Harriette Hall, but I’ve found that her views on diet not particularly well-informed. I’m not sure if she has an ax to grind – I kind of get that impression. She accepts Denise Minger’s work – sad to say – unskeptically. T. Collin Campbell’s work is a collaborative effort that has been through (and survived) extensive peer review for over 20 years. Minger’s work appears to be just her own blogging while she works on her English degree. Hall’s uncritical acceptance of Minger’s work diminishes her credibility, in my eyes.
Denise Minger doesn’t have the training, experience, or credibility, in my view, to topple the likes of T. Colin Campbell with her rather sarcastic analysis and response. She is a lay person who is intelligent and interested in statistics and diet. Nothing wrong with that, but she is not a relative expert in either field. Her understanding of human biology and digestion (based on other blog entries) is rudimentary. Her own dietary recommendations are in line with the folks at the Westin A. Price foundation (who have their own questionable ideology and agenda – check out their website). That of course doesn’t mean that her views on Campbell’s methodology are therefore wrong, but it does put a bit of a foul smell in the air. Is she really going where the evidence takes her, and is she trained, experienced and unbiased enough to perform this sort of analysis? I’m skeptical of that, and her blog certainly doesn’t make much of a case for this (it is, however, just a blog, and she has every right to her opinions). I was dismayed to read her embarassing dismissal of the academic work of previous generations. She appears to think that young people like herself, working in their apartments, simply because they have access to the Internet, can do as scholarly a job as lifelong academics and scientists were able to do 30 years ago. Please!
Here is Colin Campbell’s response:
http://www.vegsource.com/news/2010/07/china-study-author-colin-campbell-slaps-down-critic-denise-minger.html
or in PDF version, http://www.tcolincampbell.org/fileadmin/Presentation/finalmingercritique.pdf
I found his rebuttal effective. To his credit, Campbell was also respectful and didn’t resort to routine ad hominems, which (again, sad to say) I picked up from both Hall and Minger towards Campbell. Campbell comes across as a serious academic, while Minger comes across as, frankly, a college student. Sorry about the ad hominem!
The claims of vegetarians (or skeptics, or anybody for that matter) can be assessed using a standard baloney detection kit (http://www.michaelshermer.com/2009/06/baloney-detection-kit/).
i'm still going to work through all those links, but it's definitely interesting. And it's a GREAT point that just as we should be skeptical of the results of the China Study, we should also be skeptical of the skeptics and hold them to the same standard!
This is a great post, and I appreciate it. I will check out the links. Clearly, as evidenced by this thread, anyone with the Internet, a search engine, an opinion, and a forum to post said opinion can become an expert...oh well...thanks for the info0 -
I completely agree with this. I don't feel like I am restricted at all and protein is incredibly easy to get. (Beans, peas, nuts, grains, ect) From my experience, people feel threatened and assume that because of your diet preference you are going to try to convert or preach to them.I've watched Forks over Knives and I'm vegan. I was already leaning in that direction before I watched it and it just solidified my reasons for wanting to transition from being vegetarian to a vegan. I have the cookbook and there are plenty of recipes in there. I'm still working on getting enough protein. Just today I was researching on getting protein powder to add to my food and smoothies to get more protein. But there are plenty of recipes in there. It can be challenging at first getting enough calories because when eating lots of fiber you fill up quickly, so I suggest you eat every two hours so you won't get to the place where you are not getting enough to eat because your full from the meals.
FYI: Some people really love hating on vegans, but I don't let it bother me. Somebody told me today that since I don't eat meat, I have nothing to eat, which is utterly ridiculous.0 -
OK, here's a problem: vitamin B12 is only found in animal products (unless you grow veggies in your garden and don't wash off all the bacteria because this is where B12 is from, and animals often eat veggies from the ground or dirt). Our body can store B12 for years and years, so if I wasn't supplementing I could be slowly deminishing my supply without knowing it. I could feel fine for five years and then show signs of dimentia due to lack of this vital vitamin. B12 is necessary to produce the mylin sheath around our nerves; it is incredibly important. Even meat eaters over 50 need to be aware of their B12 intake because as we age we are less able to absorb B12 from animal products. I eat fortified foods such as nutritional yeast, veggie burgers and cereals. I also take a vegitarian multivitamin.
Other things to be aware of are vitamin D (even meat eaters who live in Canada like I do need to check this), Calcium, and iron. I have never been iron deficient and doubt I will be on a plant based diet.0 -
OK, here's a problem: vitamin B12 is only found in animal products (unless you grow veggies in your garden and don't wash off all the bacteria because this is where B12 is from, and animals often eat veggies from the ground or dirt). Our body can store B12 for years and years, so if I wasn't supplementing I could be slowly deminishing my supply without knowing it. I could feel fine for five years and then show signs of dimentia due to lack of this vital vitamin. B12 is necessary to produce the mylin sheath around our nerves; it is incredibly important. Even meat eaters over 50 need to be aware of their B12 intake because as we age we are less able to absorb B12 from animal products. I eat fortified foods such as nutritional yeast, veggie burgers and cereals. I also take a vegitarian multivitamin.
Other things to be aware of are vitamin D (even meat eaters who live in Canada like I do need to check this), Calcium, and iron. I have never been iron deficient and doubt I will be on a plant based diet.
You're right - it is a necessary vitamin. But it's actually not a problem, because the supplementation is so easy to come by. Many prepared vegan foods are also supplemented with B vitamins and vitamin D. A multivitamin is a good idea for everyone.
*sigh* I miss VoV.0 -
What is VoV?
:)gotcha0 -
OK, here's a problem: vitamin B12 is only found in animal products (unless you grow veggies in your garden and don't wash off all the bacteria because this is where B12 is from, and animals often eat veggies from the ground or dirt). Our body can store B12 for years and years, so if I wasn't supplementing I could be slowly deminishing my supply without knowing it. I could feel fine for five years and then show signs of dimentia due to lack of this vital vitamin. B12 is necessary to produce the mylin sheath around our nerves; it is incredibly important. Even meat eaters over 50 need to be aware of their B12 intake because as we age we are less able to absorb B12 from animal products. I eat fortified foods such as nutritional yeast, veggie burgers and cereals. I also take a vegitarian multivitamin.
Other things to be aware of are vitamin D (even meat eaters who live in Canada like I do need to check this), Calcium, and iron. I have never been iron deficient and doubt I will be on a plant based diet.
You're right - it is a necessary vitamin. But it's actually not a problem, because the supplementation is so easy to come by. Many prepared vegan foods are also supplemented with B vitamins and vitamin D. A multivitamin is a good idea for everyone.
*sigh* I miss VoV.
Oh yes, because truly healthy diets always need vitamin supplementation to actually be healthy. I can't wait to get started!0 -
I love extra meat...in fact I eat meat all day! I like juicy meat, dry meat, meat with gravy, meat in buns...I could live on meat!
??? What does this have to do with the thread subject?0 -
No interest in watching it. My mom was a lifelong vegetarian (since she was 15) and ate only whole grains, very little dairy, almost all organic produce and took tons of vitamins. She did this her whole life, starting in the early 60s when she was considered a total whack job for it. Before she died of cancer at 75, she had high cholesterol and high blood pressure.
Pass the bacon.0 -
all of those are blogs, and none of them are actual scientists.
You should read them as it may help you.
scroll up I posted scientist responses to The China Study. You posted bloggers.
hmm
If we used that logic, no one would have any reason to read anything you write (or me). To the best of my knowledge, you have no particular credentials that can be cross checked for any validity of authority over any subject matter.
The reason ad homs are logical fallacies is that they attack the person rather than what they've said. Did you have an objection to what the "bloggers" stated or do you discredit them for being merely bloggers. Seems a little convenient. You don't have to perform primary research in a field to call a spade a spade.0 -
all of those are blogs, and none of them are actual scientists.
You should read them as it may help you.
scroll up I posted scientist responses to The China Study. You posted bloggers.
hmm
If we used that logic, no one would have any reason to read anything you write (or me). To the best of my knowledge, you have no particular credentials that can be cross checked for any validity of authority over any subject matter.
The reason ad homs are logical fallacies is that they attack the person rather than what they've said. Did you have an objection to what the "bloggers" stated or do you discredit them for being merely bloggers. Seems a little convenient. You don't have to perform primary research in a field to call a spade a spade.
I actually agree with you.
I made the above statement because in the past i've been criticized for citing "non-scientific" sources and blogs by SideSteel and a number of other posters on these boards. I found it hypocritical for him to do the same thing right back.
I don't think you need to be a scientist or a doctor to have a firm understanding of nutrition.0 -
all of those are blogs, and none of them are actual scientists.
You should read them as it may help you.
scroll up I posted scientist responses to The China Study. You posted bloggers.
hmm
If we used that logic, no one would have any reason to read anything you write (or me). To the best of my knowledge, you have no particular credentials that can be cross checked for any validity of authority over any subject matter.
The reason ad homs are logical fallacies is that they attack the person rather than what they've said. Did you have an objection to what the "bloggers" stated or do you discredit them for being merely bloggers. Seems a little convenient. You don't have to perform primary research in a field to call a spade a spade.
I actually agree with you.
I made the above statement because in the past i've been criticized for citing "non-scientific" sources and blogs by SideSteel and a number of other posters on these boards. I found it hypocritical for him to do the same thing right back.
I don't think you need to be a scientist or a doctor to have a firm understanding of nutrition.
I think the difference here is one of position. If someone makes a claim, it should be backed by something. Here, frequently that means we want the claim backed by science, hopefully some peer-reviewed research.
The claim we're talking about are those made by the China Study. The people who offer rebuttals aren't necessarily making claims themselves that need to be backed by their own science (though they could potentially). Instead, it appears that they're saying that the author is simply incorrect in his analysis and processes. No peer-reviewed research is really necessary there; no new subject matter is being claimed as fact that would require backing.
There's a distinction. It is appropriate to ask that someone making a claim back up what they say. It may not necessarily be appropriate to ask someone making a rebuttal (and not a new claim) to offer their own studies if all they're doing is showing how the research and subsequent conclusions are flawed. Therefore, I don't think discounting the bloggers for being bloggers is either appropriate, or doing the same that's been done to you....I can only guess at the second part of that as I haven't done a review of all criticisms of what you post.0 -
I think the difference here is one of position. If someone makes a claim, it should be backed by something. Here, frequently that means we want the claim backed by science, hopefully some peer-reviewed research.
The claim we're talking about are those made by the China Study. The people who offer rebuttals aren't necessarily making claims themselves that need to be backed by their own science (though they could potentially). Instead, it appears that they're saying that the author is simply incorrect in his analysis and processes. No peer-reviewed research is really necessary there; no new subject matter is being claimed as fact that would require backing.
There's a distinction. It is appropriate to ask that someone making a claim back up what they say. It may not necessarily be appropriate to ask someone making a rebuttal (and not a new claim) to offer their own studies if all they're doing is showing how the research and subsequent conclusions are flawed. Therefore, I don't think discounting the bloggers for being bloggers is either appropriate, or doing the same that's been done to you....I can only guess at the second part of that as I haven't done a review of all criticisms of what you post.
my point, really, in all this, is that there are a number of scientific and medical professionals who DO stand behind Campbell's work, and the only people who have come out against it are not members of either community.
I'm not saying they're inherently wrong because of that, but if there were such massive flaws in Campbell's methodology, don't you think some actual scientists would come out against it? One or two have - as I mentioned above - but even THOSE doctors still recommend a plant-based diet, they just disagree with the specifics of Campbell's methodology.
At the end of the day, it's just the ketogenic crowd vs. the plant-based crowd. And I have a feeling that's a fight that won't be won by either side any time soon.0 -
all of those are blogs, and none of them are actual scientists.
You should read them as it may help you.
scroll up I posted scientist responses to The China Study. You posted bloggers.
hmm
If we used that logic, no one would have any reason to read anything you write (or me). To the best of my knowledge, you have no particular credentials that can be cross checked for any validity of authority over any subject matter.
The reason ad homs are logical fallacies is that they attack the person rather than what they've said. Did you have an objection to what the "bloggers" stated or do you discredit them for being merely bloggers. Seems a little convenient. You don't have to perform primary research in a field to call a spade a spade.
I actually agree with you.
I made the above statement because in the past i've been criticized for citing "non-scientific" sources and blogs by SideSteel and a number of other posters on these boards. I found it hypocritical for him to do the same thing right back.
I don't think you need to be a scientist or a doctor to have a firm understanding of nutrition.
Please find an example where I have dismissed your source because it was a blog. I'd like to see the context in which this was done.0 -
all of those are blogs, and none of them are actual scientists.
You should read them as it may help you.
scroll up I posted scientist responses to The China Study. You posted bloggers.
hmm
If we used that logic, no one would have any reason to read anything you write (or me). To the best of my knowledge, you have no particular credentials that can be cross checked for any validity of authority over any subject matter.
The reason ad homs are logical fallacies is that they attack the person rather than what they've said. Did you have an objection to what the "bloggers" stated or do you discredit them for being merely bloggers. Seems a little convenient. You don't have to perform primary research in a field to call a spade a spade.
I actually agree with you.
I made the above statement because in the past i've been criticized for citing "non-scientific" sources and blogs by SideSteel and a number of other posters on these boards. I found it hypocritical for him to do the same thing right back.
I don't think you need to be a scientist or a doctor to have a firm understanding of nutrition.
I think the difference here is one of position. If someone makes a claim, it should be backed by something. Here, frequently that means we want the claim backed by science, hopefully some peer-reviewed research.
The claim we're talking about are those made by the China Study. The people who offer rebuttals aren't necessarily making claims themselves that need to be backed by their own science (though they could potentially). Instead, it appears that they're saying that the author is simply incorrect in his analysis and processes. No peer-reviewed research is really necessary there; no new subject matter is being claimed as fact that would require backing.
There's a distinction. It is appropriate to ask that someone making a claim back up what they say. It may not necessarily be appropriate to ask someone making a rebuttal (and not a new claim) to offer their own studies if all they're doing is showing how the research and subsequent conclusions are flawed. Therefore, I don't think discounting the bloggers for being bloggers is either appropriate, or doing the same that's been done to you....I can only guess at the second part of that as I haven't done a review of all criticisms of what you post.
^ I agree with this.0 -
all of those are blogs, and none of them are actual scientists.
You should read them as it may help you.
scroll up I posted scientist responses to The China Study. You posted bloggers.
hmm
If we used that logic, no one would have any reason to read anything you write (or me). To the best of my knowledge, you have no particular credentials that can be cross checked for any validity of authority over any subject matter.
The reason ad homs are logical fallacies is that they attack the person rather than what they've said. Did you have an objection to what the "bloggers" stated or do you discredit them for being merely bloggers. Seems a little convenient. You don't have to perform primary research in a field to call a spade a spade.
I actually agree with you.
I made the above statement because in the past i've been criticized for citing "non-scientific" sources and blogs by SideSteel and a number of other posters on these boards. I found it hypocritical for him to do the same thing right back.
I don't think you need to be a scientist or a doctor to have a firm understanding of nutrition.
I think the difference here is one of position. If someone makes a claim, it should be backed by something. Here, frequently that means we want the claim backed by science, hopefully some peer-reviewed research.
The claim we're talking about are those made by the China Study. The people who offer rebuttals aren't necessarily making claims themselves that need to be backed by their own science (though they could potentially). Instead, it appears that they're saying that the author is simply incorrect in his analysis and processes. No peer-reviewed research is really necessary there; no new subject matter is being claimed as fact that would require backing.
There's a distinction. It is appropriate to ask that someone making a claim back up what they say. It may not necessarily be appropriate to ask someone making a rebuttal (and not a new claim) to offer their own studies if all they're doing is showing how the research and subsequent conclusions are flawed. Therefore, I don't think discounting the bloggers for being bloggers is either appropriate, or doing the same that's been done to you....I can only guess at the second part of that as I haven't done a review of all criticisms of what you post.
^ I agree with this.
me too. 0 -
I think the difference here is one of position. If someone makes a claim, it should be backed by something. Here, frequently that means we want the claim backed by science, hopefully some peer-reviewed research.
The claim we're talking about are those made by the China Study. The people who offer rebuttals aren't necessarily making claims themselves that need to be backed by their own science (though they could potentially). Instead, it appears that they're saying that the author is simply incorrect in his analysis and processes. No peer-reviewed research is really necessary there; no new subject matter is being claimed as fact that would require backing.
There's a distinction. It is appropriate to ask that someone making a claim back up what they say. It may not necessarily be appropriate to ask someone making a rebuttal (and not a new claim) to offer their own studies if all they're doing is showing how the research and subsequent conclusions are flawed. Therefore, I don't think discounting the bloggers for being bloggers is either appropriate, or doing the same that's been done to you....I can only guess at the second part of that as I haven't done a review of all criticisms of what you post.
my point, really, in all this, is that there are a number of scientific and medical professionals who DO stand behind Campbell's work, and the only people who have come out against it are not members of either community.
I'm not saying they're inherently wrong because of that, but if there were such massive flaws in Campbell's methodology, don't you think some actual scientists would come out against it? One or two have - as I mentioned above - but even THOSE doctors still recommend a plant-based diet, they just disagree with the specifics of Campbell's methodology.
At the end of the day, it's just the ketogenic crowd vs. the plant-based crowd. And I have a feeling that's a fight that won't be won by either side any time soon.
Ok..so the problem here is that your reasoning isn't logical. It sounds sort of reasonable, in the sense that you have a reason for thinking the way you do; it's not random. But it's not logical. And the reason it's not logical is that you're essentially just acting on faith without stating why the objections are flawed themselves or perhaps disingenuous or...whatever other objection might occur. Campbell responded to the rebuttals, and the rebuttals responded back.
There might be any number of reasons for what you're asking with regard to scientists. First, we can't assume you're right, that no such scientists exist. It doesn't really matter if they do or don't. And it's clearly not just a question of methodology if you read the rebuttals.0
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