For Vegans / Vegetarians only.
Replies
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And that is obviously just fine. I have never had any kind of quarrel with people who take up the lifestyle for moral reasons (though I will occasionally poke holes in their sails). As I stated, my problem is with all of the 'meat will kill you', 'humans are herbivores', 'being a Vegan can cure everything but AIDS' crap that I see bandied around.
I will admit, I pose one of the few questions that Vegans can only make excuses for, but not truly answer. That is obviously by design. If you can't answer why people on such a diet aren't completely wrecking **** in the strength world, then you definitely can't claim that it's a superior diet. Why? Because food makes the body function. If the bodies of an entire group are functioning at a lesser level than those in another dietary group, it should tell you something.
Yes, I wasn't taking it personally, just chiming in to balance out those "many proponents of veganism" since I'd wager there are an awful lot of us who care more about our diet being adequately healthy than being superior.0 -
Yes, I wasn't taking it personally, just chiming in to balance out those "many proponents of veganism" since I'd wager there are an awful lot of us who care more about our diet being adequately healthy than being superior.
I am sure you're right. In fact, that seems to be a common theme among most people, and to my knowledge, has been for a long time. Most are okay with adequate, average, normal, or whatever you want to call it. I don't get it, but that really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. In all fairness, I've always had a 'be the best or gtfo' type of attitude. ^_^0 -
I'm veg, but I'm also a biologist. We are designed to be omnivores as are bears and dogs. Cats are obligate carnivores so they do not fit into your argument. I don't eat meat because I view is as something unnecessary and I'm trying to lower my carbon foot print. I still wear leather and I still feed my cat meat and, yes, I am perfectly aware of where those products come from.
Thank you :flowerforyou:
Especially for feeding your cat meat because I've heard a few stories from various sources (vets, vet techs, random people) about people who try to turn their cats vegan. Not good.
Are you serious? People try to turn their cats Vegan? Do I even dare Google this subject? O_O
That's just....cruel. This is coming from the guy who used to hate cats, until I owned one from a kitten and realized that they are actually pretty badass if you play with them all of the time to keep them from turning into lazy sacks of ****.
Yep. Very serious.0 -
I am sure you're right. In fact, that seems to be a common theme among most people, and to my knowledge, has been for a long time. Most are okay with adequate, average, normal, or whatever you want to call it. I don't get it, but that really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. In all fairness, I've always had a 'be the best or gtfo' type of attitude. ^_^
For me, it's a matter of which is more important. My convictions are stronger on this issue than any need for physical superiority or even greatness. If it were the other way around, I'd actually be drawn to a Paleo diet from what I can tell. (This is not to say that I don't believe vegans can achieve great athleticism or physicality, just that for me, I'm so neutral on the topic that I can't be bothered to research it and debate it one way or the other. I'm more here to add another perspective to the topic, not win a point.)0 -
troll....troll....troll your boat.
This. THIS!!!0 -
Are you serious? People try to turn their cats Vegan? Do I even dare Google this subject? O_O
That's just....cruel. This is coming from the guy who used to hate cats, until I owned one from a kitten and realized that they are actually pretty badass if you play with them all of the time to keep them from turning into lazy sacks of ****.
Yep. Very serious.
I have no words for the garbage I found upon Googleing this subject....well, after I got past the first few links that were justifiably berating people who tried to do so. At least the woman writing this article is logical.
http://www.catster.com/lifestyle/vegan-cat-owners-tips0 -
Yes, I wasn't taking it personally, just chiming in to balance out those "many proponents of veganism" since I'd wager there are an awful lot of us who care more about our diet being adequately healthy than being superior.
I am sure you're right. In fact, that seems to be a common theme among most people, and to my knowledge, has been for a long time. Most are okay with adequate, average, normal, or whatever you want to call it. I don't get it, but that really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. In all fairness, I've always had a 'be the best or gtfo' type of attitude. ^_^
Well.... Like I said earlier, I recognize that vegetarianism in terms of lifting weights and hitting macros may not be the easiest or the ideal path. I have chosen this path for reasons not having to do with my fitness goals. In my larger life goals, this fits. And while it may be a slight set back in terms of fitness goals, it certainly is not an impossibility for me to be what I want to be while also being vegetarian.0 -
Yes, I wasn't taking it personally, just chiming in to balance out those "many proponents of veganism" since I'd wager there are an awful lot of us who care more about our diet being adequately healthy than being superior.
I am sure you're right. In fact, that seems to be a common theme among most people, and to my knowledge, has been for a long time. Most are okay with adequate, average, normal, or whatever you want to call it. I don't get it, but that really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. In all fairness, I've always had a 'be the best or gtfo' type of attitude. ^_^
Well.... Like I said earlier, I recognize that vegetarianism in terms of lifting weights and hitting macros may not be the easiest or the ideal path. I have chosen this path for reasons not having to do with my fitness goals. In my larger life goals, this fits. And while it may be a slight set back in terms of fitness goals, it certainly is not an impossibility for me to be what I want to be while also being vegetarian.
From the looks of it, it hasn't slowed you down any!0 -
Well.... Like I said earlier, I recognize that vegetarianism in terms of lifting weights and hitting macros may not be the easiest or the ideal path. I have chosen this path for reasons not having to do with my fitness goals. In my larger life goals, this fits. And while it may be a slight set back in terms of fitness goals, it certainly is not an impossibility for me to be what I want to be while also being vegetarian.
Precisely, and from what I have seen, you are doing quite well. You also acknowledge that it is a more difficult path, which also rebuts the 'ideal' diet part of the Vegan argument. Everything that I have tossed out here was to show that it isn't 'optimal', not that it isn't doable. You and Sara (and others here that I am not familiar enough with to mention) are both proof that good things can be accomplished even with a vegetarian diet. I was never debating that.
Could you be further along if you ate meat? Maybe. Would it be worth the kick in the teeth to how you feel about yourself? Of course not. At the end of the day, it's all about each individual's self image, and where they want to be.
To be totally honest, I am hoping that a Vegan lifter can crack a few world records one day. I like it when decades of evidence are proven wrong. That being said, I don't expect it to happen, which would be why we are starting to see stuff like Vegan powerlifting federations popping up. Most of them who really do the work and aren't just cheerleaders know that they can't really compete with the animal fed, and have just decided to segregate themselves from it.0 -
Yes, I wasn't taking it personally, just chiming in to balance out those "many proponents of veganism" since I'd wager there are an awful lot of us who care more about our diet being adequately healthy than being superior.
I am sure you're right. In fact, that seems to be a common theme among most people, and to my knowledge, has been for a long time. Most are okay with adequate, average, normal, or whatever you want to call it. I don't get it, but that really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. In all fairness, I've always had a 'be the best or gtfo' type of attitude. ^_^
Well.... Like I said earlier, I recognize that vegetarianism in terms of lifting weights and hitting macros may not be the easiest or the ideal path. I have chosen this path for reasons not having to do with my fitness goals. In my larger life goals, this fits. And while it may be a slight set back in terms of fitness goals, it certainly is not an impossibility for me to be what I want to be while also being vegetarian.
Just to jump in here re vegetarianism and meeting goals - and I am speaking as a vegetarian and not a vegan. I have no problems hitting my macros at all and do not find it hard. I also do not think being a vegetarian has impeded my progress in my lifting. In fact, as I am a vegetarian that loves milk, it may well have helped my goals to a degree.0 -
I'm veg, but I'm also a biologist. We are designed to be omnivores as are bears and dogs. Cats are obligate carnivores so they do not fit into your argument. I don't eat meat because I view is as something unnecessary and I'm trying to lower my carbon foot print. I still wear leather and I still feed my cat meat and, yes, I am perfectly aware of where those products come from.
Thank you :flowerforyou:
Especially for feeding your cat meat because I've heard a few stories from various sources (vets, vet techs, random people) about people who try to turn their cats vegan. Not good.
Are you serious? People try to turn their cats Vegan? Do I even dare Google this subject? O_O
That's just....cruel. This is coming from the guy who used to hate cats, until I owned one from a kitten and realized that they are actually pretty badass if you play with them all of the time to keep them from turning into lazy sacks of ****.
Yep. Very serious.
Yup. I'd never force an animal to go against it's natural diet. I think that's very un-vegan from an ethical standpoint.0 -
Yes, I wasn't taking it personally, just chiming in to balance out those "many proponents of veganism" since I'd wager there are an awful lot of us who care more about our diet being adequately healthy than being superior.
I am sure you're right. In fact, that seems to be a common theme among most people, and to my knowledge, has been for a long time. Most are okay with adequate, average, normal, or whatever you want to call it. I don't get it, but that really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. In all fairness, I've always had a 'be the best or gtfo' type of attitude. ^_^
Well.... Like I said earlier, I recognize that vegetarianism in terms of lifting weights and hitting macros may not be the easiest or the ideal path. I have chosen this path for reasons not having to do with my fitness goals. In my larger life goals, this fits. And while it may be a slight set back in terms of fitness goals, it certainly is not an impossibility for me to be what I want to be while also being vegetarian.
Just to jump in here re vegetarianism and meeting goals - and I am speaking as a vegetarian and not a vegan. I have no problems hitting my macros at all and do not find it hard. I also do not think being a vegetarian has impeded my progress in my lifting. In fact, as I am a vegetarian that loves milk, it may well have helped my goals to a degree.
My protein sources are primarily vegan. I do eat eggs and occassional cheese, but too much dairy doesn't mix well with me. But I appreciated your post because its good to hear that vegetarianism isn't a hindrance to strength goals!0 -
Some are different, but come on, many are similar and you just worded differently. You had the chance to prove your point and you **** the bed. Even baboons have huge teeth and they are still 95% vegetarian. There are minor exceptions to the list of course.
Removed infini-quotes.
The point being that selective similarities or differences across taxa does not suddenly place rabbits as carnivores or humans as vegetarians. These anatomical arguments are very poor constructs. As someone with a science background, I'm stumped at your inability to understand the basics but I'm going to agree with others that it must be willful.
Here, have a read on what a vegetarian and biologist has to say about that argument:http://bostonveggie.blogspot.be/2011/02/are-we-carnivores-or-herbivores.html
You've been good for a chuckle, and i have to say I thank you for bringing out this morpho argument; I hadn't run across something so blatently illogical in biology in quite a while but I'm more than done with your outright mysogynistic blather.0 -
Bryan Danielson is no longer vegan. He was also never vegan by choice, it was for a medical reason. He was a great wrestler long before he was vegan, and he's still a great wrestler that's no longer vegan. His vegan diet had absolutely nothing to do with his performance or success. In fact he stated in an interview that being vegan hurt more than helped.One question for the guy swearing that this is the 'proper' way to do things. How many world strength records are held by Vegans? The answer is none.
So, if this diet is the way that humans are 'supposed' to eat, why are they so physically inferior when they are eating this way? Granted, there are some strong guys out there who are Vegan, and I am not arguing that. What I am saying is that if this is the ideal diet, shouldn't Vegans be dominating their meat eating relatives in all sports? They're not...at all. In fact, they're not even close.
So, why?
Athletes who are vegan/vegetarian:
Patrik Baboumian, Strongman competitor, former bodybuilder
Brendan Brazier, Triathlete
Arian Foster, NFL running back for Houston Texans
Georges Laraq, Pro hockey player
Mike Zigomanis, Pro hockey player
Robert Cheeke, body builder
Luke Cummo, martial artist
Bryan Danielson, pro wrestler
Mike Mahler, body builder
Salim Stoudamire, NBA player
Mike Tyson, pro boxer
RIcky WIlliams, running back for Miami Dolphins
Carl Lewis, Olympic track star
Joe Namath, former NFL quarterback
There are MANY more, but my hand is beginning to hurt typing all the names of all these tremendous athletes.
What else ya got?0 -
Hi all,
I am very close to being a vegetarian/vegan. The only diary I have is low-fat milk in coffee and cereal and I occassionally eat a little meat, chicken or fish.
I was very pleasantly surprised yesterday when I stumbled upon some research published in the Medical Journal of Australia on protein in the vegetarian diet:Summary
• A vegetarian diet can easily meet human dietary protein requirements as long as energy needs are met and a variety of foods are eaten.
• Vegetarians should obtain protein from a variety of plant sources, including legumes, soy products, grains, nuts and seeds.
• Eggs and dairy products also provide protein for those following a lacto-ovo-vegetarian diet.
• There is no need to consciously combine different plant proteins at each meal as long as a variety of foods are eaten from day to day, because the human body maintains a pool of amino acids which can be used to complement dietary protein.
• The consumption of plant proteins rather than animal proteins by vegetarians may contribute to their reduced risk of chronic diseases such as diabetes and heart disease.
-- Protein and vegetarian diets by Kate A Marsh, Elizabeth A Munn and Surinder K Baines, (MJA Open 2012; 1 Suppl 2: 7-10), Medical Journal of Australia0 -
Jesus Christ...does Tofu make people unable to comprehend plain English? Reread my post, and you will realize that none of the people you listed meet my criteria.
Correct me if I'm wrong. Doesn't being superior at anything involve more than just diet? I think you're just frustrating yourself expecting an answer you know probably doesn't exist, if you have such expertise. A lot of people succeed immensely on a vegan diet. A lot of people succeed otherwise.
ps-I'm vegan, but because of medical/ethical reasons. I personally feel better this way. Doesn't mean everyone does.
Yes, of course it does. However, the OP is arguing that Vegan is 'superior', which it clearly is not...either that, or Vegans just suck at life. I prefer to think it's the diet holding them back from the physical greatness that those who have gone before them have accomplished while consuming all manner of animal products.
Perhaps there are no vegan athletes who meet your criteria - and that is fine. Maybe a vegan diet is not superior to meat eating within the criteria you describe.
However, the vast majority of MFP users are not looking to break the next strength world record, only finding a diet that will adequately cover their dietary needs - possibly even maximize their own person potentials. As has already been posted - it takes mor than diet to break a world strength record - motivation, agression, determination, upbringing and locality, genetics, steroids and other illegal substances, wealth and finally - diet.
I'm quite happy driving my vegan body and it serves me well. I believe that is the case with others who choose to be vegan for whatever reason.0 -
This is such a good discussion! People that are unwilling to accept the science are just defending the habits that they are comfortable with. Of course we can survive with it, but why when we can be healthier, kinder, and more sustainable without it?
yes but the problem is that what the OP posted is not science, it is cherry-picked for an agenda. All that stuff about herbivores and anatomy? doesn't take long before it breaks down with logic. Look at it this way -
my guinea pig is a herbivore. she doesn't eat ANY meat at all. She eats, depending on her mood, large quantities of hay; lettuce; red peppers; baby corn; carrots; and guinea pig nuggets which are a combination of mashed up grains.
There are very few humans* who could get through a day eating a truly herbivorous diet based on the sort of foodstuffs that other herbivores do. The key difference to what my guinea pig eats and what a human can properly consume is cooking. Hmmm. Let's think about that last. So to survive on almond milk, tofu, beans, pulses, legumes etc. the human herbivore has to cook them. Right. But that's not what humans were BIOLOGICALLY DESIGNED to do. No one mentioned cooking in the manual.
So the average happy omnivore suggests that we have evolved to become erm, omnivore, because it's easier. The OP suggests we MUST eat what a herbivore eats because it is what we were DESIGNED to do using quasi-science but negates to mentions that in order to actually eat like a herbivore we have to take a step forward in the evolutionary chain and add a level of complexity to our diet (ie. cooking and processing).
By that very logic the OP's arguments and defences are invalid. Vegetarianism and veganism is a lifestyle choice for ethical reasons. Not health or 'design'. Omnivorism is a lifestyle choice for more generalist reasons.
I fully support the vegetarian lifestyle. I have never tried to persuade anyone that eating meat is better, it's just what I choose to do.
*yes, there are people who eat a raw diet. It's not easy.
ETA - thankyou to all the rational vegetarians, vegans and omnivores that have posted here. Thankfully the OP is in the minority 0 -
Well put.0
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Guess OP never heard of the term encephalization.0
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One question for the guy swearing that this is the 'proper' way to do things. How many world strength records are held by Vegans? The answer is none.
So, if this diet is the way that humans are 'supposed' to eat, why are they so physically inferior when they are eating this way? Granted, there are some strong guys out there who are Vegan, and I am not arguing that. What I am saying is that if this is the ideal diet, shouldn't Vegans be dominating their meat eating relatives in all sports? They're not...at all. In fact, they're not even close.
So, why?
How many of those strength records are held by people on steroids?
Are vegans less likely to take steroids and therefore unlikely to hold such records?
I don't know, I just thought I would put it out there.
If you'd like, I can throw the drug tested records out there as well.
Lmao! Do you live in a hole?
I have two words for you... Lance Armstrong
Hahaha0 -
One question for the guy swearing that this is the 'proper' way to do things. How many world strength records are held by Vegans? The answer is none.
So, if this diet is the way that humans are 'supposed' to eat, why are they so physically inferior when they are eating this way? Granted, there are some strong guys out there who are Vegan, and I am not arguing that. What I am saying is that if this is the ideal diet, shouldn't Vegans be dominating their meat eating relatives in all sports? They're not...at all. In fact, they're not even close.
So, why?
Athletes who are vegan/vegetarian:
Patrik Baboumian, Strongman competitor, former bodybuilder
Brendan Brazier, Triathlete
Arian Foster, NFL running back for Houston Texans
Georges Laraq, Pro hockey player
Mike Zigomanis, Pro hockey player
Robert Cheeke, body builder
Luke Cummo, martial artist
Bryan Danielson, pro wrestler
Mike Mahler, body builder
Salim Stoudamire, NBA player
Mike Tyson, pro boxer
RIcky WIlliams, running back for Miami Dolphins
Carl Lewis, Olympic track star
Joe Namath, former NFL quarterback
There are MANY more, but my hand is beginning to hurt typing all the names of all these tremendous athletes.
What else ya got?
Jon Fitch UFC
Jake Shields UFC
Mac Danzig UFC0 -
One question for the guy swearing that this is the 'proper' way to do things. How many world strength records are held by Vegans? The answer is none.
So, if this diet is the way that humans are 'supposed' to eat, why are they so physically inferior when they are eating this way? Granted, there are some strong guys out there who are Vegan, and I am not arguing that. What I am saying is that if this is the ideal diet, shouldn't Vegans be dominating their meat eating relatives in all sports? They're not...at all. In fact, they're not even close.
So, why?
Wrong. The strongest man of Germany is a vegan!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrik_Baboumian0 -
My family is vegan. I feel no need to justify it. We are all healthy and active and happy 0
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One question for the guy swearing that this is the 'proper' way to do things. How many world strength records are held by Vegans? The answer is none.
So, if this diet is the way that humans are 'supposed' to eat, why are they so physically inferior when they are eating this way? Granted, there are some strong guys out there who are Vegan, and I am not arguing that. What I am saying is that if this is the ideal diet, shouldn't Vegans be dominating their meat eating relatives in all sports? They're not...at all. In fact, they're not even close.
So, why?
Wrong. The strongest man of Germany is a vegan!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrik_Baboumian
Already been hit and knocked down. German strength record does not in any way equal world record. As I said before, this guy's lifts are actually lower than the world records for an entire weight class below him. Try again.0 -
One question for the guy swearing that this is the 'proper' way to do things. How many world strength records are held by Vegans? The answer is none.
So, if this diet is the way that humans are 'supposed' to eat, why are they so physically inferior when they are eating this way? Granted, there are some strong guys out there who are Vegan, and I am not arguing that. What I am saying is that if this is the ideal diet, shouldn't Vegans be dominating their meat eating relatives in all sports? They're not...at all. In fact, they're not even close.
So, why?
How many of those strength records are held by people on steroids?
Are vegans less likely to take steroids and therefore unlikely to hold such records?
I don't know, I just thought I would put it out there.
If you'd like, I can throw the drug tested records out there as well.
Lmao! Do you live in a hole?
I have two words for you... Lance Armstrong
Hahaha
So what you're saying, is that we are just supposed to assume that all Vegans don't use steroids, and that all animal consumers that set records do? I think you're bending the 'benefit of the doubt' rule a little to one side, don't you?0 -
Please don't put words in my mouth. It was in reference to refraining from grains because machinery may have killed some creatures. Doing your best means if palm oil was taken from sources that you know destroyed habitats, try to find an oil that isn't. I obtain my vegetables from my dad's garden, I pick out the slugs and put them back outside. They might not survive but I tried my best to prevent the death, and that is a point. If you eat anything derived directly from animal exploitation you cannot describe your lifestyle as vegan. I haven't spent any money or energy trying to prove I'm better than anyone, as I said already my choices are my own and I never start the argument, but defend when provoked.
To be honest, I get where you are coming from.
Now, here's my quarrel with this. You are basically allowing intent to be your defining factor. The deaths those slugs suffer could be one far more excruciating than if I were to say, decapitate a pig, or to use an extremely weird variation, put one down using a non-painful poison. Since your intention was to let the slug live, somehow it's death is less morally treacherous than the pigs, because I killed the pig with the intention of eating it, though the pig's death was far less painful?
Now, would you agree that if I were to raise my own animals for consumption, and could then be assured that their lives and deaths were as painless as possible, that I would be on the same moral wavelength as the Vegan lifestyle? If not, why?
They could be far more excruciating but the death could also be perfectly natural, the slug could die in it's sleep from old age or I could accidentally step on it, my dog may even use it as a toy. that's a lot of what ifs, and it's a strange argument...one that I doubt can extract many sensible points...
I just try to keep any involvement on my part separated from the suffering of any other being. One aspect of general vegan opinion is a respect for animal welfare. I choose to abstain because it feels right for me personally in many, many ways. Upon educating myself of the realities on many farms by visiting local farms all through my life (I have not visited a slaughter house of ever witnessed an animal being killed, the farms were enough for me), I became vegetarian as a child and as my knowledge of happenings progressed and became more in tune with my adult emotions, progressing me towards becoming vegan through default.
I never see it as "can't eat that", but "I can't bring myself to consider this food". This was a natural feeling deep within me and I know that I personally could not consume anything contained within an animal. I'm not saying it's wrong, I am saying I feel it is wrong for me. This is my own explanation of my heart held beliefs and I'm award that is is over simplified and childlike by nature.
Now that I've slowly crept my way towards your question, for me to consider the idea of raising an animal for food, I know that I would sooner humanly kill myself than be able to raise a weapon to a pig, but I also accept that many people are capable of this. Truth be told, I can respect people who obtain their meat in this way. I have one close friend who hunts deer. He kills about 6 annually and this is his primary source of meat. This man will sit in the rain outside hunting season because he enjoys watching the deer in their environment, he has never needed more than one shot and assures me the deer never know what happened. I'm not going to pretend this idea doesn't upset me, it does. I can't fully comprehend it and would never want to bear witness, but myself and my friend have had many heated conversations where we both express extreme frustration and anger towards the meat industry. My friend is also a butcher, and doesn't buy any of the meat there because he can see signs that the animal was beaten before slaughter (I've suppressed the grisly details, but I seen raw chicken with deep bruises).
We also share the same opinions that many hunters are incompetent and enjoy hurting the deer or extending their death, this man is an exception to that rule, he believes hunting licences should be much more difficult to obtain than they are, in this country anyway.
So.... yeah, it's not for me, but I believe that an animal who had good quality of life and died with no knowledge of what was happening to it, that is far more morally right than the horrifically mistreated animals in some factories. The lesser of two evils
Just let me give the pig a little hug first0 -
They could be far more excruciating but the death could also be perfectly natural, the slug could die in it's sleep from old age or I could accidentally step on it, my dog may even use it as a toy. that's a lot of what ifs, and it's a strange argument...one that I doubt can extract many sensible points...
I just try to keep any involvement on my part separated from the suffering of any other being. One aspect of general vegan opinion is a respect for animal welfare. I choose to abstain because it feels right for me personally in many, many ways. Upon educating myself of the realities on many farms by visiting local farms all through my life (I have not visited a slaughter house of ever witnessed an animal being killed, the farms were enough for me), I became vegetarian as a child and as my knowledge of happenings progressed and became more in tune with my adult emotions, progressing me towards becoming vegan through default.
I never see it as "can't eat that", but "I can't bring myself to consider this food". This was a natural feeling deep within me and I know that I personally could not consume anything contained within an animal. I'm not saying it's wrong, I am saying I feel it is wrong for me. This is my own explanation of my heart held beliefs and I'm award that is is over simplified and childlike by nature.
Now that I've slowly crept my way towards your question, for me to consider the idea of raising an animal for food, I know that I would sooner humanly kill myself than be able to raise a weapon to a pig, but I also accept that many people are capable of this. Truth be told, I can respect people who obtain their meat in this way. I have one close friend who hunts deer. He kills about 6 annually and this is his primary source of meat. This man will sit in the rain outside hunting season because he enjoys watching the deer in their environment, he has never needed more than one shot and assures me the deer never know what happened. I'm not going to pretend this idea doesn't upset me, it does. I can't fully comprehend it and would never want to bear witness, but myself and my friend have had many heated conversations where we both express extreme frustration and anger towards the meat industry. My friend is also a butcher, and doesn't buy any of the meat there because he can see signs that the animal was beaten before slaughter (I've suppressed the grisly details, but I seen raw chicken with deep bruises).
We also share the same opinions that many hunters are incompetent and enjoy hurting the deer or extending their death, this man is an exception to that rule, he believes hunting licences should be much more difficult to obtain than they are, in this country anyway.
So.... yeah, it's not for me, but I believe that an animal who had good quality of life and died with no knowledge of what was happening to it, that is far more morally right than the horrifically mistreated animals in some factories. The lesser of two evils
Just let me give the pig a little hug first
While I am obviously on the opposite end of the spectrum, I can agree with you, at least so far as humans are concerned. Nature on the other hand, is far more cruel than most people would like to believe. For example, I once read something about how komodo Dragons kill water buffalo, as witnessed firsthand by a guy who ended up quitting nature documentary as a result. Basically, the dragon poisons the water buffalo with naturally occurring bacteria in it's mouth by biting, then follows it around for days to weeks waiting for it to become weak enough to consume whole. Makes chicken punching seem pretty tame in comparison.
Most people would argue "but that's just nature, that's how they eat". Fine. How do we know that humans aren't programmed to be just as sadistic when it comes to killing prey, and that those like you and I who would prefer humane deaths aren't the ones defying the natural course of things? We may possess the ability to reason things out, but that obviously doesn't exempt our entire species from doing some pretty twisted ****.
You are obviously one of the many who realize that you do what you do for personal feelings, and I can appreciate that. The ones I quarrel with are those that I have mentioned before: those that swear the Vegan diet can work miracles on the body, and that if everyone would just go Vegan, most of the world's problems would suddenly evaporate. They pay this lip service without taking one thing into account: just as we adapt to things, so to does the rest of the world. You know as well as I do what would happen if hunting of animals suddenly stopped today. It wouldn't be pretty for anyone, meat eater or otherwise.0 -
They could be far more excruciating but the death could also be perfectly natural, the slug could die in it's sleep from old age or I could accidentally step on it, my dog may even use it as a toy. that's a lot of what ifs, and it's a strange argument...one that I doubt can extract many sensible points...
I just try to keep any involvement on my part separated from the suffering of any other being. One aspect of general vegan opinion is a respect for animal welfare. I choose to abstain because it feels right for me personally in many, many ways. Upon educating myself of the realities on many farms by visiting local farms all through my life (I have not visited a slaughter house of ever witnessed an animal being killed, the farms were enough for me), I became vegetarian as a child and as my knowledge of happenings progressed and became more in tune with my adult emotions, progressing me towards becoming vegan through default.
I never see it as "can't eat that", but "I can't bring myself to consider this food". This was a natural feeling deep within me and I know that I personally could not consume anything contained within an animal. I'm not saying it's wrong, I am saying I feel it is wrong for me. This is my own explanation of my heart held beliefs and I'm award that is is over simplified and childlike by nature.
Now that I've slowly crept my way towards your question, for me to consider the idea of raising an animal for food, I know that I would sooner humanly kill myself than be able to raise a weapon to a pig, but I also accept that many people are capable of this. Truth be told, I can respect people who obtain their meat in this way. I have one close friend who hunts deer. He kills about 6 annually and this is his primary source of meat. This man will sit in the rain outside hunting season because he enjoys watching the deer in their environment, he has never needed more than one shot and assures me the deer never know what happened. I'm not going to pretend this idea doesn't upset me, it does. I can't fully comprehend it and would never want to bear witness, but myself and my friend have had many heated conversations where we both express extreme frustration and anger towards the meat industry. My friend is also a butcher, and doesn't buy any of the meat there because he can see signs that the animal was beaten before slaughter (I've suppressed the grisly details, but I seen raw chicken with deep bruises).
We also share the same opinions that many hunters are incompetent and enjoy hurting the deer or extending their death, this man is an exception to that rule, he believes hunting licences should be much more difficult to obtain than they are, in this country anyway.
So.... yeah, it's not for me, but I believe that an animal who had good quality of life and died with no knowledge of what was happening to it, that is far more morally right than the horrifically mistreated animals in some factories. The lesser of two evils
Just let me give the pig a little hug first
While I am obviously on the opposite end of the spectrum, I can agree with you, at least so far as humans are concerned. Nature on the other hand, is far more cruel than most people would like to believe. For example, I once read something about how komodo Dragons kill water buffalo, as witnessed firsthand by a guy who ended up quitting nature documentary as a result. Basically, the dragon poisons the water buffalo with naturally occurring bacteria in it's mouth by biting, then follows it around for days to weeks waiting for it to become weak enough to consume whole. Makes chicken punching seem pretty tame in comparison.
Most people would argue "but that's just nature, that's how they eat". Fine. How do we know that humans aren't programmed to be just as sadistic when it comes to killing prey, and that those like you and I who would prefer humane deaths aren't the ones defying the natural course of things? We may possess the ability to reason things out, but that obviously doesn't exempt our entire species from doing some pretty twisted ****.
You are obviously one of the many who realize that you do what you do for personal feelings, and I can appreciate that. The ones I quarrel with are those that I have mentioned before: those that swear the Vegan diet can work miracles on the body, and that if everyone would just go Vegan, most of the world's problems would suddenly evaporate. They pay this lip service without taking one thing into account: just as we adapt to things, so to does the rest of the world. You know as well as I do what would happen if hunting of animals suddenly stopped today. It wouldn't be pretty for anyone, meat eater or otherwise.
But it WOULD save the world. Just kidding dude. My rose tainted bubble is getting thinned with sad thoughts of reality
Nothing will save the world, nothing is supposed to be perfect, that would be boring. But I just kinda like my world and I'm staying here :drinker: Fun talking to you G, I'm outta food, peace :laugh:0 -
Nature on the other hand, is far more cruel than most people would like to believe.
Shark week.0 -
I was watching a video on youtube. Hodgetwins for that matter. Anyway, they mentioned something fasting and then referenced to be all sucked up like Vegans. Meaning their consumption of protein isn't as adequate as meat eats. It made me laugh pretty well due to most of the vegans I know are all small and frail. But yeah, who the fuuuunk cares what you eat? I'm vegetarian and it makes no difference to me how I consume my calories/ macros... just trying to build me some lean muscle.0
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