going dutch on a first date

devilwhiterose

I think that if he offered, he should pay...

We usually split it when we were younger and dating...as I knew he wasn't made of gold.

As far as how the rest of the thread went, I think the gentlemen trend is fading, sadly.

I moved from the midwest to the south and was shocked to find that alot of guys still treat women like ladies. I'm called ma'am, have doors held open, get offered to cut in line if I have 1 item, don't have to carry heavy things without help being offered. It's really nice. I "know" I can lug a 50 pound bag of potting soil...but it's really nice to have someone offer to help. I guess the more I think about it, it's not just guys. People in general suck now. :laugh:

Oh and I must live under a rock as I have never heard the term "dutch".

concordancia

Oh, boo hoo, some double standards are dying out. How sad.

This does not have to mean an end to civility. There is no reason a woman couldn't offer a jump, no reason a woman can't hold the door. The end of sexism and the end of civility are two separate issues.

I have held doors for men who get bent out of shape because they think it is belittling and challenges their manhood. I have also held doors for men who say thank you and walk on through. I consider the second more of a gentleman.

PRMinx

I agree with you completely. What you are saying is exactly what my dad taught me to expect from men, and it is so, so rare these days that when I go on a date with a man who does do all of those things a gentleman is supposed to do, I feel like writing his parents a thank-you note.

It really pisses me off when women get all "I don't need you to open the door for me" because that ruins it for all the women who truly appreciate the gesture. My cousin was raised by a single mom who thinks men in general are worthless, so she raised her daughter to NOT walk through a door that's been opened for her. It saddens me, but it also makes me grateful that I had positive male AND female examples in my life, rather than people who seem to hate the very idea of civility.

I love this. It's exactly how I feel, too.

I'm a fairly successful, career minded, ambitious and capable woman. I believe that the greatest advantage anyone can have in life is an education and I'm proud of the fact that more women are going to college to pursue their own ambitions. I hope that we will continue to see women plow through glass ceilings in corporate America when its deserved and I'm all for women embracing independence.

That said, I find it sad that certain feminist arguments force us to pick a side (ie. you can either be a strong, independent woman OR the kind of woman that relies on a man for help). It's just not that black and white. If a man stopped on the road to help me fix a tire, I would be grateful, not offended. At the same time, if I decide to throw on my apron and cook my man a nice dinner while he relaxes and watches sports, I don't believe that makes me any less strong. Partners should look out for each other in the ways that they know how.

I'm a little shocked at the backlash digitalbill received. Perhaps I read it differently, but I found it endearing. He clearly respects the women in his life and enjoys being chivalrous. I think it's nice when a man keeps an eye out for the women in his life.

I've never been out with a guy who opened doors, took my coat or pulled out a chair for me, but I do think it would be charming :-)

digitalbill

It might be important to emphisize that I am not suggesting that a man has to put his jacket over a puddle so his date doesn't step in water.
Nor am I saying that he has to do a "Dukes of Hazzard" hood slide just to get the door for her.

At the same time, if it is raining and you only have one small umbrella, the girl gets it.
If the temprature drops suddenly (yes, it does that even here in South Florida), the girl gets the jacket. Even if it means that the man is a bit uncomfortablly cold.

The end result is that the woman is simply worth more. Her comfort outweighs that of the man.
With that said, my wife still has no problem unloading sod from the truck, helping hang drywall (she is actually better then me), or offering a hand under the hood.

Tisch1985

WOW i didn't know that "Going dutch" is a sayin whahaha

I'm dutch and i think that is so funny!!

inskydiamonds

Man...
Not only is chivelry dying a slow death but, it appears that many of the women actually get offended when a man tries to do the things that a man is supposed to do.

The world is changing and I am staying the same.

Because women don't want to rely on a man to do the things that they can do...

it's not hard to understand, really....Men suck...

I suppose so.
No more opening doors.
No more waiting for her to sit before sitting down.
No more.... well... anything I suppose.

Those are manners. I open the door for ANYONE.

No...
A man pays becanse that is what a man does.
If a woman has a flat tire and is about to put on the spare.. NO!!!!
A man will always do that for her.
A man will do the dirty things although the woman is totally capable of doing it herself.
That is what a man does.
And a man pays for the meal when dating.
Even if she made it perfectly clear that she isn't going to "put out" yet.
The man picks up the bill.

There, you are implying that a woman shouldn't do those things. The women I know don't want to rely on a man to do those things.

So... really... what is the difference between opening a door and changing a tire?
A woman is capable of doing both things, right?
It is not a matter of reliance. I am not suggesting that a woman walks up to a door and just stands there, confused by the "push" sign.
I am also not suggesting that a woman gets a flat tire and just stares at it dumbfounded.
I am suggesting that, if possible, a man, a REAL man SHOULD take care of these types of tasks.
Several years back, my wife took one of the old trucks I was rebuilding to the store and, after forgetting to turn off the lights, she killed the battery.
She called me up for a jump start.
I got there and she was standing there, hood up and cables in her hand.
Not ONE SINGLE PERSON was "man" enough to simply pull up and offer to help with a jump.
That is where we have gone as a society.
Lots of males around but not a single man.

That has nothing to do with not being "man" enough. A woman driving past also very well could have stopped to help her jump the car.

In fact,I recently killed my battery in a parking lot. A WOMAN pulled up to help me. Imagine that? What she really a man in disguise? Is she "man" enough?

Obviously someone should have stopped to help your wife, but what they had in their pants wasn't what stopped them.

My problem with your thinking is this "man enough" and "real man" type thing. These are not things that make a "real man," these are things that make a courteous person.

ItsCasey

The end of sexism and the end of civility are two separate issues.

So now a man opening a door for a woman or offering to change a tire is sexist? Or a woman appreciating the fact that he DID open her door or offer to change her tire is sexist? This BS is the reason men and women can't stand each other anymore.

Modern feminism is to blame for so many of society's ills because it didn't stop at equal legal and professional rights and privileges. They had to take it all the way to the point of incessant hatred of anyone with a penis, and I just don't play that game. I'm proud to be a woman, and I freaking LOVE men. As Paige said, it is absolutely possible for a woman to be well-educated and successful (even more so than the man in her life) and still let him be a man. If that means he wants to open your doors and carry your bags, is that really so threatening or degrading or offensive to you? If so, it sounds like you are the one with the problem, not him.

ItsCasey

Man...
Not only is chivelry dying a slow death but, it appears that many of the women actually get offended when a man tries to do the things that a man is supposed to do.

The world is changing and I am staying the same.

Because women don't want to rely on a man to do the things that they can do...

it's not hard to understand, really....Men suck...

I suppose so.
No more opening doors.
No more waiting for her to sit before sitting down.
No more.... well... anything I suppose.

Those are manners. I open the door for ANYONE.

No...
A man pays becanse that is what a man does.
If a woman has a flat tire and is about to put on the spare.. NO!!!!
A man will always do that for her.
A man will do the dirty things although the woman is totally capable of doing it herself.
That is what a man does.
And a man pays for the meal when dating.
Even if she made it perfectly clear that she isn't going to "put out" yet.
The man picks up the bill.

There, you are implying that a woman shouldn't do those things. The women I know don't want to rely on a man to do those things.

So... really... what is the difference between opening a door and changing a tire?
A woman is capable of doing both things, right?
It is not a matter of reliance. I am not suggesting that a woman walks up to a door and just stands there, confused by the "push" sign.
I am also not suggesting that a woman gets a flat tire and just stares at it dumbfounded.
I am suggesting that, if possible, a man, a REAL man SHOULD take care of these types of tasks.
Several years back, my wife took one of the old trucks I was rebuilding to the store and, after forgetting to turn off the lights, she killed the battery.
She called me up for a jump start.
I got there and she was standing there, hood up and cables in her hand.
Not ONE SINGLE PERSON was "man" enough to simply pull up and offer to help with a jump.
That is where we have gone as a society.
Lots of males around but not a single man.

That has nothing to do with not being "man" enough. A woman driving past also very well could have stopped to help her jump the car.

In fact,I recently killed my battery in a parking lot. A WOMAN pulled up to help me. Imagine that? What she really a man in disguise? Is she "man" enough?

Obviously someone should have stopped to help your wife, but what they had in their pants wasn't what stopped them.

My problem with your thinking is this "man enough" and "real man" type thing. These are not things that make a "real man," these are things that make a courteous person.

That's your opinion. I absolutely think a real man would offer to help a woman having car trouble. I also think if a woman has the equipment and the knowledge to do it, she should offer to help also. I've done it before. These are not mutually exclusive concepts.

sizzle74

I think whoever asks for the date should pay. Me personally, I would never ask a guy out. I feel I have the skills to get asked out and if they don't ask me out, they obviously don't want to go out with me! (this is all past tense of course, I am married) Hell, if I want to go out badly enough and my husband has been shelling out all sorts of money on fun, I will ask him out and pay

KeepCalmNGetyaSweatOn

I guess I am not old fashioned. I actually prefer to pay for myself on the first date. The reason I say this is because then if the date didn't go so well (or I was just flat out uninterested) then I wouldn't feel obligated to go out with him again. Most guys I have dated in the past usually offer to pay and I tell them thanks but no thanks and say something along the lines of (if I'm interested I'm interested of course) "You can pay for the next date!" Which by doing that let's them know how I felt the date went. This has always worked well for me.

sizzle74

Oh and I am nothing but grateful to ANYONE man or woman who will help me with my car. I was once trying to add oil to my car and thank goodness a gentleman asked if I would like assistance. I was right about to pour it into the transmission fluid thingy.

MeeshyBW

If a guy has asked ME out for dinner then he should pay. You don't invite someone for dinner and not pay, it's bad manners.

I have never gone dutch with a guy - ever. Either he pays the whole bill or I do. I think going dutch is a bigger thing in the US than in the UK.

inskydiamonds

Man...
Not only is chivelry dying a slow death but, it appears that many of the women actually get offended when a man tries to do the things that a man is supposed to do.

The world is changing and I am staying the same.

Because women don't want to rely on a man to do the things that they can do...

it's not hard to understand, really....Men suck...

I suppose so.
No more opening doors.
No more waiting for her to sit before sitting down.
No more.... well... anything I suppose.

Those are manners. I open the door for ANYONE.

No...
A man pays becanse that is what a man does.
If a woman has a flat tire and is about to put on the spare.. NO!!!!
A man will always do that for her.
A man will do the dirty things although the woman is totally capable of doing it herself.
That is what a man does.
And a man pays for the meal when dating.
Even if she made it perfectly clear that she isn't going to "put out" yet.
The man picks up the bill.

There, you are implying that a woman shouldn't do those things. The women I know don't want to rely on a man to do those things.

So... really... what is the difference between opening a door and changing a tire?
A woman is capable of doing both things, right?
It is not a matter of reliance. I am not suggesting that a woman walks up to a door and just stands there, confused by the "push" sign.
I am also not suggesting that a woman gets a flat tire and just stares at it dumbfounded.
I am suggesting that, if possible, a man, a REAL man SHOULD take care of these types of tasks.
Several years back, my wife took one of the old trucks I was rebuilding to the store and, after forgetting to turn off the lights, she killed the battery.
She called me up for a jump start.
I got there and she was standing there, hood up and cables in her hand.
Not ONE SINGLE PERSON was "man" enough to simply pull up and offer to help with a jump.
That is where we have gone as a society.
Lots of males around but not a single man.

That has nothing to do with not being "man" enough. A woman driving past also very well could have stopped to help her jump the car.

In fact,I recently killed my battery in a parking lot. A WOMAN pulled up to help me. Imagine that? What she really a man in disguise? Is she "man" enough?

Obviously someone should have stopped to help your wife, but what they had in their pants wasn't what stopped them.

My problem with your thinking is this "man enough" and "real man" type thing. These are not things that make a "real man," these are things that make a courteous person.

That's your opinion. I absolutely think a real man would offer to help a woman having car trouble. I also think if a woman has the equipment and the knowledge to do it, she should offer to help also. I've done it before. These are not mutually exclusive concepts.

That's my point though. There's nothing that:
1. Make a man inherently have the knowledge or equipment to do these things. The lack of knowledge doesn't emasculate him.
2. Courteous human beings should stop to help another person, regardless of what they have in their pants.

It has nothing to do with being a real man or not. It has everything to do with being a good person.

digitalbill

Man...
Not only is chivelry dying a slow death but, it appears that many of the women actually get offended when a man tries to do the things that a man is supposed to do.

The world is changing and I am staying the same.

Because women don't want to rely on a man to do the things that they can do...

it's not hard to understand, really....Men suck...

I suppose so.
No more opening doors.
No more waiting for her to sit before sitting down.
No more.... well... anything I suppose.

Those are manners. I open the door for ANYONE.

No...
A man pays becanse that is what a man does.
If a woman has a flat tire and is about to put on the spare.. NO!!!!
A man will always do that for her.
A man will do the dirty things although the woman is totally capable of doing it herself.
That is what a man does.
And a man pays for the meal when dating.
Even if she made it perfectly clear that she isn't going to "put out" yet.
The man picks up the bill.

There, you are implying that a woman shouldn't do those things. The women I know don't want to rely on a man to do those things.

So... really... what is the difference between opening a door and changing a tire?
A woman is capable of doing both things, right?
It is not a matter of reliance. I am not suggesting that a woman walks up to a door and just stands there, confused by the "push" sign.
I am also not suggesting that a woman gets a flat tire and just stares at it dumbfounded.
I am suggesting that, if possible, a man, a REAL man SHOULD take care of these types of tasks.
Several years back, my wife took one of the old trucks I was rebuilding to the store and, after forgetting to turn off the lights, she killed the battery.
She called me up for a jump start.
I got there and she was standing there, hood up and cables in her hand.
Not ONE SINGLE PERSON was "man" enough to simply pull up and offer to help with a jump.
That is where we have gone as a society.
Lots of males around but not a single man.

That has nothing to do with not being "man" enough. A woman driving past also very well could have stopped to help her jump the car.

In fact,I recently killed my battery in a parking lot. A WOMAN pulled up to help me. Imagine that? What she really a man in disguise? Is she "man" enough?

Obviously someone should have stopped to help your wife, but what they had in their pants wasn't what stopped them.

My problem with your thinking is this "man enough" and "real man" type thing. These are not things that make a "real man," these are things that make a courteous person.

That's your opinion. I absolutely think a real man would offer to help a woman having car trouble. I also think if a woman has the equipment and the knowledge to do it, she should offer to help also. I've done it before. These are not mutually exclusive concepts.

That's my point though. There's nothing that:
1. Make a man inherently have the knowledge or equipment to do these things. The lack of knowledge doesn't emasculate him.
2. Courteous human beings should stop to help another person, regardless of what they have in their pants.

It has nothing to do with being a real man or not. It has everything to do with being a good person.

I suppose we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
Maybe it is a generation thing or, maybe too many guys getting manicures and fake tans but, every man SHOULD know how to change a tire, jump start a car, and do an oil change.
I am aware that there are a few exceptions to this (I have heard that many people who live in New York City have never even driven a car).
Again, I have no doubt you will disagree with me on this but, that is my opinion.

concordancia

Man...
Not only is chivelry dying a slow death but, it appears that many of the women actually get offended when a man tries to do the things that a man is supposed to do.

The world is changing and I am staying the same.

Because women don't want to rely on a man to do the things that they can do...

it's not hard to understand, really....Men suck...

I suppose so.
No more opening doors.
No more waiting for her to sit before sitting down.
No more.... well... anything I suppose.

Those are manners. I open the door for ANYONE.

No...
A man pays becanse that is what a man does.
If a woman has a flat tire and is about to put on the spare.. NO!!!!
A man will always do that for her.
A man will do the dirty things although the woman is totally capable of doing it herself.
That is what a man does.
And a man pays for the meal when dating.
Even if she made it perfectly clear that she isn't going to "put out" yet.
The man picks up the bill.

There, you are implying that a woman shouldn't do those things. The women I know don't want to rely on a man to do those things.

So... really... what is the difference between opening a door and changing a tire?
A woman is capable of doing both things, right?
It is not a matter of reliance. I am not suggesting that a woman walks up to a door and just stands there, confused by the "push" sign.
I am also not suggesting that a woman gets a flat tire and just stares at it dumbfounded.
I am suggesting that, if possible, a man, a REAL man SHOULD take care of these types of tasks.
Several years back, my wife took one of the old trucks I was rebuilding to the store and, after forgetting to turn off the lights, she killed the battery.
She called me up for a jump start.
I got there and she was standing there, hood up and cables in her hand.
Not ONE SINGLE PERSON was "man" enough to simply pull up and offer to help with a jump.
That is where we have gone as a society.
Lots of males around but not a single man.

That has nothing to do with not being "man" enough. A woman driving past also very well could have stopped to help her jump the car.

In fact,I recently killed my battery in a parking lot. A WOMAN pulled up to help me. Imagine that? What she really a man in disguise? Is she "man" enough?

Obviously someone should have stopped to help your wife, but what they had in their pants wasn't what stopped them.

My problem with your thinking is this "man enough" and "real man" type thing. These are not things that make a "real man," these are things that make a courteous person.

That's your opinion. I absolutely think a real man would offer to help a woman having car trouble. I also think if a woman has the equipment and the knowledge to do it, she should offer to help also. I've done it before. These are not mutually exclusive concepts.

That's my point though. There's nothing that:
1. Make a man inherently have the knowledge or equipment to do these things. The lack of knowledge doesn't emasculate him.
2. Courteous human beings should stop to help another person, regardless of what they have in their pants.

It has nothing to do with being a real man or not. It has everything to do with being a good person.

I suppose we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
Maybe it is a generation thing or, maybe too many guys getting manicures and fake tans but, every man SHOULD know how to change a tire, jump start a car, and do an oil change.
I am aware that there are a few exceptions to this (I have heard that many people who live in New York City have never even driven a car).
Again, I have no doubt you will disagree with me on this but, that is my opinion.

Every person who drives a car should know how to do these things! It has nothing to do with being a man. Even my chauvinistic father made me learn all that before I even got my permit. Then we covered it in drivers' ed.

JohnMessmer

Regardless of the financial situation of the male, he should pay for the date. In fact he should pay for all the dates. If this relationship turns into marriage he will either A) Join their funds together to pay for everything they do or obtain -or- Pay for everything for as long as they are married. So whats the big deal? I guess, "if" you are dating someone who is simply financially out of your class altogether then she may not want you to pay for the date because she does not want to eat where you can afford to take her; that would be the exception.

As far as "These chivalrous deeds superficially appear to have positive effects for women (yay, free food! -- yay, a door held open solely based on my gender!), but the underlying rationale is that women are weaker and need to be taken care of or provided for." Man, that's a mouthful of PC garbage. Women do need to be taken care of, loved, appreciated, adored, and yes, sometimes, even paid for in one way or another, and they are worth every bit of it after all they have to put up with us men all of the time.

It is not a "lack of respect" that causes men to pay for the costs of dates, in fact it is respect for females in general.

I have never asked, expected, or been in a situation where a female insisted on paying for her "share" of a first date and quite honestly I would be offended (now once you are actually dating and money is interchanged quite often for various reasons then who cares as it is all for the common good).

Can a female afford to pay for her meal? Probably. Can she change her own car tire? Probably. Can she earn an income equal to or greater than mine? Probably. Can she do 99% of anything that I can do? Probably. The simple fact is that the male ego is a fragile beast and if you are such a well educated, intelligent, modern female that simply will not grasp that basic concept...then their is no hope for any future relationship we may have had. Men "need" to feel important, in some form or fashion, and if you can not grant them the simple feeling of accomplishment received by paying for a meal, movie, drinks, then you are undeserving of their attention.

Back to the OP, in today's PC world, when you offered to pay he probably did not want to offend you by debating the issue; even though you may have inadvertently offended him just by offering. I wouldn't hold it against him, and quite frankly, I would flat out ask him about it. It is not difficult to say "Hey when we went out and I offered to go Dutch, what did you think?" If he says he thought it was great because he was really strapped for cash because of ...xyz, then you know that he did intend to pay even though he wasn't really in a good position to do so; which I would chalk up to him still being a good guy. Of course there could be a hundred responses and you will never know unless you ask the question.

concordancia

While it may be the oldest profession, the idea that a woman "needs to be paid for" is pretty ludicrous!

anneerick

Man...
Not only is chivelry dying a slow death but, it appears that many of the women actually get offended when a man tries to do the things that a man is supposed to do.

The world is changing and I am staying the same.

Because women don't want to rely on a man to do the things that they can do...

it's not hard to understand, really....Men suck...

I suppose so.
No more opening doors.
No more waiting for her to sit before sitting down.
No more.... well... anything I suppose.

Those are manners. I open the door for ANYONE.

No...
A man pays becanse that is what a man does.
If a woman has a flat tire and is about to put on the spare.. NO!!!!
A man will always do that for her.
A man will do the dirty things although the woman is totally capable of doing it herself.
That is what a man does.
And a man pays for the meal when dating.
Even if she made it perfectly clear that she isn't going to "put out" yet.
The man picks up the bill.

There, you are implying that a woman shouldn't do those things. The women I know don't want to rely on a man to do those things.

So... really... what is the difference between opening a door and changing a tire?
A woman is capable of doing both things, right?
It is not a matter of reliance. I am not suggesting that a woman walks up to a door and just stands there, confused by the "push" sign.
I am also not suggesting that a woman gets a flat tire and just stares at it dumbfounded.
I am suggesting that, if possible, a man, a REAL man SHOULD take care of these types of tasks.
Several years back, my wife took one of the old trucks I was rebuilding to the store and, after forgetting to turn off the lights, she killed the battery.
She called me up for a jump start.
I got there and she was standing there, hood up and cables in her hand.
Not ONE SINGLE PERSON was "man" enough to simply pull up and offer to help with a jump.
That is where we have gone as a society.
Lots of males around but not a single man.

That has nothing to do with not being "man" enough. A woman driving past also very well could have stopped to help her jump the car.

In fact,I recently killed my battery in a parking lot. A WOMAN pulled up to help me. Imagine that? What she really a man in disguise? Is she "man" enough?

Obviously someone should have stopped to help your wife, but what they had in their pants wasn't what stopped them.

My problem with your thinking is this "man enough" and "real man" type thing. These are not things that make a "real man," these are things that make a courteous person.

That's your opinion. I absolutely think a real man would offer to help a woman having car trouble. I also think if a woman has the equipment and the knowledge to do it, she should offer to help also. I've done it before. These are not mutually exclusive concepts.

That's my point though. There's nothing that:
1. Make a man inherently have the knowledge or equipment to do these things. The lack of knowledge doesn't emasculate him.
2. Courteous human beings should stop to help another person, regardless of what they have in their pants.

It has nothing to do with being a real man or not. It has everything to do with being a good person.

I suppose we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
Maybe it is a generation thing or, maybe too many guys getting manicures and fake tans but, every man SHOULD know how to change a tire, jump start a car, and do an oil change.
I am aware that there are a few exceptions to this (I have heard that many people who live in New York City have never even driven a car).
Again, I have no doubt you will disagree with me on this but, that is my opinion.

I completely agree with you digitalbill. It's not about whether or not I (being female) am capable of doing these things; I can. I am able. But when my husbands around... I better not be changing the oil in my car. That's just my opinion though.

cuterbee

...every ONE WHO DRIVES SHOULD know how to change a tire, jump start a car, and do an oil change.

Fixed that for you.

The last time I had to change a flat was middle-of-nowhere western Kansas on a major highway, in the rain, no cell phone reception, two little kids and a dog in the car, just past a curve and in a place where the car could not be pulled very far off the road due to a ditch (and the tire was on the driver's side, facing traffic...luckily there was a field the kids could go stand in PLUS I had an umbrella). Had I not been able to change a tire, we'd probably STILL be waiting for someone to pull over (and those kids are in their 20s now).

Mrder37

I go commando on a first date does that count:)