You Should Study Nutrition - The Other Perspective

sunsnstatheart

Ah yes, yesterday's brief respite of reason is over. Moving along now.

LoraF83

I agree with you, but I have to wonder why there's this automatic knee jerk reaction opposing understanding nutrition, how the body works and removing unhealthy choices from how we eat? It's like folks want to eat pop tarts and feel smug about it?

that's exactly what it is, and no - i don't understand it either.

On the other hand, I don't know why there's this automatic knee jerk reaction that opposes moderation. It's like people want to be super restrictive and feel smug about it......

CoachReddy

I agree with you, but I have to wonder why there's this automatic knee jerk reaction opposing understanding nutrition, how the body works and removing unhealthy choices from how we eat? It's like folks want to eat pop tarts and feel smug about it?

that's exactly what it is, and no - i don't understand it either.

On the other hand, I don't know why there's this automatic knee jerk reaction that opposes moderation. It's like people want to be super restrictive and feel smug about it......

do you think i oppose moderation when I say 10-20% of your calories can be discretionary?

Sarauk2sf

I agree with you, but I have to wonder why there's this automatic knee jerk reaction opposing understanding nutrition, how the body works and removing unhealthy choices from how we eat? It's like folks want to eat pop tarts and feel smug about it?

that's exactly what it is, and no - i don't understand it either.

On the other hand, I don't know why there's this automatic knee jerk reaction that opposes moderation. It's like people want to be super restrictive and feel smug about it......

do you think i oppose moderation when I say 10-20% of your calories can be discretionary?

Sounds like most people's interpretation of IIFYM to me

BBeccaJean

I think that's great advice...I wish I lived in a state that allowed raw milk in stores :O(. I don't really follow a "traditional" diet, but I commend anyone who can and does!

Ramberta

I agree with you, but I have to wonder why there's this automatic knee jerk reaction opposing understanding nutrition, how the body works and removing unhealthy choices from how we eat? It's like folks want to eat pop tarts and feel smug about it?

^This. Also, to those contending the OP's quote about Orthorexia, yes it's true that Orthorexia Nervosa is an obsession, not just a preference to be healthy.

However, since the moment someone says "I'm trying to eat more clean/whole foods", everyone calls them Orthorexic as if it is not only inevitable over time ("dooming yourself to failure"), but the only way that one can go when you try to incorporate much more healthy foods into your diet-- and therefore, because you can only eat so many things in a day, you inevitably have far fewer "bad" foods. Which is pretty silly imo.

KatrinaWilke

I would add:

http://www.gnolls.org/

To that list.

Personally I consider multiple sources and viewpoints before deciding what to do. I then test it out in real world conditions. I throw out what doesn't work and keep what does.

There is a false dichotomy going on in many of these discussions. There is a huge area of convergence in the middle between many approaches - both conventional and alternative - that always seems to get overlooked.

I know what you mean. I am one of those in the middle. When I see these posts, I am afraid to post a comment because I don't want to pick a side!

Ramberta

I agree with you, but I have to wonder why there's this automatic knee jerk reaction opposing understanding nutrition, how the body works and removing unhealthy choices from how we eat? It's like folks want to eat pop tarts and feel smug about it?

that's exactly what it is, and no - i don't understand it either.

On the other hand, I don't know why there's this automatic knee jerk reaction that opposes moderation. It's like people want to be super restrictive and feel smug about it......

Who says that eating clean more days out of the week than not is "super-restrictive"? This clash between so-called "clean eaters" and "IIFYMers" is ridiculous because THEY ACTUALLY AGREE AND ARE DOING THE SAME THING. Yet they would never admit it.

CoachReddy

I would add:

http://www.gnolls.org/

To that list.

Personally I consider multiple sources and viewpoints before deciding what to do. I then test it out in real world conditions. I throw out what doesn't work and keep what does.

There is a false dichotomy going on in many of these discussions. There is a huge area of convergence in the middle between many approaches - both conventional and alternative - that always seems to get overlooked.

I know what you mean. I am one of those in the middle. When I see these posts, I am afraid to post a comment because I don't want to pick a side!

that's exactly what sucks about these forums. the crazy thing is that I, myself, am in the middle. I think there is SO much value - SO MUCH - to nutritional science. Hell I'm considering getting certifications in nutrition. But I also happen to believe that you can treat most illnesses and conditions naturally, and I think you can prevent many illnesses/conditions with diet. I come off as extreme on these boards because it's that second half of my beliefs that come under fire time and time again, so that's all I'm ever defending.

looking at things from multiple perspectives is ONLY helpful. It absolutely can't hurt.

ron2e

...even professionals are leading you in the wrong direction. Learning about proper nutrition will save you a lot of wasted time and you'll get to your goals faster.

When I take on clients I make them do ridiculous amounts of research. Its not enough for me to just summarize things to them. People always end up trying to tweak things when they don't understand the mechanics of proper nutrition. It never works out as well as it could have. I always tell them that if they spent two less hours training a week and used those two hours to read they would inevitably reach their goals faster in the long run. I believe that when I say it.

There are people, trainers, professionals, who will want to tell you that by focusing on what kinds of foods you eat, you are displaying "orthorexic" tendencies. Orthorexic is defined by Alan Aragon as “an unhealthy obsession with eating healthy food.”

Don't listen. Obviously food shouldn't consume your every waking thought, and you should enjoy your life and your friends, but a care and a concern for the things you put in your mouth can serve you incredibly well on your journey. Do you want to have a stronger, healthier body? Do you want to avoid disease? Do you want to recover faster, require less sleep, function at a more optimal level? Do you want to be bounding up stairs at 60, 70 years old? Do you want to be doing yoga when you're 80 like I do?

Then here are some great resources to help get you started!

http://www.westonaprice.org/

http://chriskresser.com/

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/

http://wrightnewsletter.com/about/

http://www.ted.com/talks/william_li.html

http://www.eattodefeatcancer.org/

http://www.drweil.com/

http://drkevinlau.blogspot.com/

If you read all that you'd know more than ~99% of people everywhere. You can learn it in a month easily. Spend all your time learning. But if you want to ask questions, that's not a bad thing either.

Oh dear, I don't have to follow many of these links to find a sorry collection of cranks and people trying to sell you snake oil and I wouldn't call that research. As for professionals moving in the wrong direction................... now how many times have I heard that the experts were wrong and someone who can tell a good anecdote (true or false) or who clearly has an interest in what he can sell you, is right.

My friend can I recommend a book to you "Bad Science" by Ben Goldacre, maybe put some of this stuff in perspective and point out the value of true documented trials under controlled conditions. I doubt you'd like what you'd read but it might be an education for you.

judydelo1

CoachReddy thanks for all the links to peruse!!

I think it's a sign of the times when people that strive to eat clean and healthy foods are called a term equating them with having a disorder.

If someone is restricting their calories to the point of starvation, now that's a completely different story.

And yes there are zelots in every aspect of life. Here is a quote by Dr. Mercola which I think has a lot of merit:

"Unfortunately, it’s not always just about the nutrition. All too often raw food converts (just as some advocates of other radical dietary protocols) possess a near frenzied religious fervor, attaching spiritual, puritanical, even moralistic significance to the virtues of their "superior" 100 percent raw, vegan or vegetable-food diet. Coined "Orthorexia Nervosa" in Health Food Junkies by Dr. Steven Bratman and David Knight, this phenomena has been personally observed within numerous healthy food communities. Unfortunately, it ends up being dysfunctional and unsustainable, reflecting obsessive need to control and to be right, with a bottom line that essentially makes the enjoyment of eating into a guilty vice.

It’s highly counterproductive, dissociative and unhealthy (especially for the greater conscious community of people who are waking up about the truth in food and agriculture) for various food and dietary philosophies to be in a constant game of superiority and one-upmanship. Even worse is exclusionism--continuing to maintain a "WE HAVE THE ONLY WAY" type of attitude. This is just as bad as religious wars."

I agree with Dr. Mercola. However, to lump anyone that is actively seeking to eat a healthy diet into this category is ridiculous. We may all disagree on exactly what constitutes a "healthy diet". And as people become more aware and educated on the topic their ideals may change. I think at least being on this path is so important, no matter where in the journey one is. Our bodies are sacred. You realize that once good health has vanished. So wanting to being aware of how to best feed ourselves is just common sense and should be looked at as being NORMAL and not dysfunctional. For me, it isn't just about calories in calories out. It's about nutrients, micronutrients, phytonutrients, minerals, beneficial micro-organisms . . . and it's also about not gumming up the works with toxins . . . and it's about not clogging up my arteries with harmful fats . . . and it's about not stressing my adrenals with stimulants . . . and it's about not messing up my pancreas with simple sugars and a high fat diet . . . and it's about getting enough sun to stimulate vitamin D production (or supplementation) . . . and it's about getting enough daylight through my pupil to stimulate my endocrine system, etc. I LOVE LIFE and I ENJOY learning about my body and treating it with respect. IT MAKES ME FEEL GOOD.

I wonder if the term orthorexia was actually created by the processed/fast food giants to degrade anyone that doesn't eat their crap, lol.

LavenderBouquet

I very much agree with you and there are some really great links on there :happy: Great post! :flowerforyou:

CoachReddy

Oh dear, I don't have to follow many of these links to find a sorry collection of cranks and people trying to sell you snake oil and I wouldn't call that research. As for professionals moving in the wrong direction................... now how many times have I heard that the experts were wrong and someone who can tell a good anecdote (true or false) or who clearly has an interest in what he can sell you, is right.

My friend can I recommend a book to you "Bad Science" by Ben Goldacre, maybe put some of this stuff in perspective and point out the value of true documented trials under controlled conditions. I doubt you'd like what you'd read but it might be an education for you.

good scientific trials that were performed under controlled conditions have also turned out to be wrong as the years go by. i'm simply offering alternatives. you don't 'have to agree or even bother reading if you're not interested.

however, William Li, Jonathan Wright, Kevin Lau, etc, etc are all very well respected doctors who graduated from schools like Harvard and Yale. just because you disagree does not make them quacks selling snake oil.

traditional doctors would be viewed the same way if they weren't paid by pharmaceutical industries and insurance companies, and instead had to sell prescriptions to you themselves on an individual basis.

Ramberta

CoachReddy thanks for all the links to peruse!!

I think it's a sign of the times when people that strive to eat clean and healthy foods are called a term equating them with having a disorder.

If someone is restricting their calories to the point of starvation, now that's a completely different story.

And yes there are zelots in every aspect of life. Here is a quote by Dr. Mercola which I think has a lot of merit:

"Unfortunately, it’s not always just about the nutrition. All too often raw food converts (just as some advocates of other radical dietary protocols) possess a near frenzied religious fervor, attaching spiritual, puritanical, even moralistic significance to the virtues of their "superior" 100 percent raw, vegan or vegetable-food diet. Coined "Orthorexia Nervosa" in Health Food Junkies by Dr. Steven Bratman and David Knight, this phenomena has been personally observed within numerous healthy food communities. Unfortunately, it ends up being dysfunctional and unsustainable, reflecting obsessive need to control and to be right, with a bottom line that essentially makes the enjoyment of eating into a guilty vice.

It’s highly counterproductive, dissociative and unhealthy (especially for the greater conscious community of people who are waking up about the truth in food and agriculture) for various food and dietary philosophies to be in a constant game of superiority and one-upmanship. Even worse is exclusionism--continuing to maintain a "WE HAVE THE ONLY WAY" type of attitude. This is just as bad as religious wars."

I agree with Dr. Mercola. However, to lump anyone that is actively seeking to eat a healthy diet into this category is ridiculous. We may all disagree on exactly what constitutes a "healthy diet". And as people become more aware and educated on the topic their ideals may change. I think at least being on this path is so important, no matter where in the journey one is. Our bodies are sacred. You realize that once good health has vanished. So wanting to being aware of how to best feed ourselves is just common sense and should be looked at as being NORMAL and not dysfunctional. For me, it isn't just about calories in calories out. It's about nutrients, micronutrients, phytonutrients, minerals, beneficial micro-organisms . . . and it's also about not gumming up the works with toxins . . . and it's about not clogging up my arteries with harmful fats . . . and it's about not stressing my adrenals with stimulants . . . and it's about not messing up my pancreas with simple sugars and a high fat diet . . . and it's about getting enough sun to stimulate vitamin D production (or supplementation) . . . and it's about getting enough daylight through my pupil to stimulate my endocrine system, etc. I LOVE LIFE and I ENJOY learning about my body and treating it with respect. IT MAKES ME FEEL GOOD.

I wonder if the term orthorexia was actually created by the processed/fast food giants to degrade anyone that doesn't eat their crap, lol.

You sound way smarter than me in terms of how the body works, but it doesn't take a scientist, nutritional or otherwise, to know that eating more whole ingredients is better for you than anything processed! And wanting to develop a taste for mostly whole foods, to the point where it overshadows the desires for junk, doesn't make anyone orthorexic.

LoraF83

I agree with you, but I have to wonder why there's this automatic knee jerk reaction opposing understanding nutrition, how the body works and removing unhealthy choices from how we eat? It's like folks want to eat pop tarts and feel smug about it?

that's exactly what it is, and no - i don't understand it either.

On the other hand, I don't know why there's this automatic knee jerk reaction that opposes moderation. It's like people want to be super restrictive and feel smug about it......

do you think i oppose moderation when I say 10-20% of your calories can be discretionary?

Yes.

Good for you for eating a pop tart. I honestly was giving you some credit last week when you agreed to disagree or had a rational discussion about a couple of points.

However, I'm not giving you a moderation merit badge just yet. I think you are have very extreme viewpoints about food. And I'm pretty sure you've argued them quite often here. My concern is that people get sucked in by the "clean" (paleo/vegan/lowcarb/juicing/cleansing/etc/etc/etc) viewpoints - they often struggle to maintain that extreme. Some people thrive on it (kudos to you, I guess!) but many, many more cannot maintain it and it sets them up for further failure.

Ramberta

...even professionals are leading you in the wrong direction. Learning about proper nutrition will save you a lot of wasted time and you'll get to your goals faster.

When I take on clients I make them do ridiculous amounts of research. Its not enough for me to just summarize things to them. People always end up trying to tweak things when they don't understand the mechanics of proper nutrition. It never works out as well as it could have. I always tell them that if they spent two less hours training a week and used those two hours to read they would inevitably reach their goals faster in the long run. I believe that when I say it.

There are people, trainers, professionals, who will want to tell you that by focusing on what kinds of foods you eat, you are displaying "orthorexic" tendencies. Orthorexic is defined by Alan Aragon as “an unhealthy obsession with eating healthy food.”

Don't listen. Obviously food shouldn't consume your every waking thought, and you should enjoy your life and your friends, but a care and a concern for the things you put in your mouth can serve you incredibly well on your journey. Do you want to have a stronger, healthier body? Do you want to avoid disease? Do you want to recover faster, require less sleep, function at a more optimal level? Do you want to be bounding up stairs at 60, 70 years old? Do you want to be doing yoga when you're 80 like I do?

Then here are some great resources to help get you started!

http://www.westonaprice.org/

http://chriskresser.com/

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/

http://wrightnewsletter.com/about/

http://www.ted.com/talks/william_li.html

http://www.eattodefeatcancer.org/

http://www.drweil.com/

http://drkevinlau.blogspot.com/

If you read all that you'd know more than ~99% of people everywhere. You can learn it in a month easily. Spend all your time learning. But if you want to ask questions, that's not a bad thing either.

Oh dear, I don't have to follow many of these links to find a sorry collection of cranks and people trying to sell you snake oil and I wouldn't call that research. As for professionals moving in the wrong direction................... now how many times have I heard that the experts were wrong and someone who can tell a good anecdote (true or false) or who clearly has an interest in what he can sell you, is right.

My friend can I recommend a book to you "Bad Science" by Ben Goldacre, maybe put some of this stuff in perspective and point out the value of true documented trials under controlled conditions. I doubt you'd like what you'd read but it might be an education for you.

What I got out of that reply:

CoachReddy

I agree with you, but I have to wonder why there's this automatic knee jerk reaction opposing understanding nutrition, how the body works and removing unhealthy choices from how we eat? It's like folks want to eat pop tarts and feel smug about it?

that's exactly what it is, and no - i don't understand it either.

On the other hand, I don't know why there's this automatic knee jerk reaction that opposes moderation. It's like people want to be super restrictive and feel smug about it......

do you think i oppose moderation when I say 10-20% of your calories can be discretionary?

Yes.

Good for you for eating a pop tart. I honestly was giving you some credit last week when you agreed to disagree or had a rational discussion about a couple of points.

However, I'm not giving you a moderation merit badge just yet. I think you are have very extreme viewpoints about food. And I'm pretty sure you've argued them quite often here. My concern is that people get sucked in by the "clean" (paleo/vegan/lowcarb/juicing/cleansing/etc/etc/etc) viewpoints - they often struggle to maintain that extreme. Some people thrive on it (kudos to you, I guess!) but many, many more cannot maintain it and it sets them up for further failure.

if they aren't happy doing it, they shouldn't be doing it. also something I've always maintained. i love eating like this - others do too. if you don't, then good lord do something you DO enjoy that gives you the results you want!

Ramberta

I agree with you, but I have to wonder why there's this automatic knee jerk reaction opposing understanding nutrition, how the body works and removing unhealthy choices from how we eat? It's like folks want to eat pop tarts and feel smug about it?

that's exactly what it is, and no - i don't understand it either.

On the other hand, I don't know why there's this automatic knee jerk reaction that opposes moderation. It's like people want to be super restrictive and feel smug about it......

do you think i oppose moderation when I say 10-20% of your calories can be discretionary?

Yes.

Good for you for eating a pop tart. I honestly was giving you some credit last week when you agreed to disagree or had a rational discussion about a couple of points.

However, I'm not giving you a moderation merit badge just yet. I think you are have very extreme viewpoints about food. And I'm pretty sure you've argued them quite often here. My concern is that people get sucked in by the "clean" (paleo/vegan/lowcarb/juicing/cleansing/etc/etc/etc) viewpoints - they often struggle to maintain that extreme. Some people thrive on it (kudos to you, I guess!) but many, many more cannot maintain it and it sets them up for further failure.

I have no intention of following any of the diets you just mentioned, but I follow Coach and I enjoy reading what he has to say. Like he says, learning more about nutrition is never harmful, only helpful. Not everyone who wants to eat healthy will automatically go for a fad diet-- anyone with half a brain knows that radically changing your diet in ANY way will only achieve temporary success, if any success at all. Yeah, so my aunt lost 50 lbs on Atkins, great for her. But I'm sure she gained it all back slowly once she stopped, because it's a stupid fad diet and no one wants to follow it forever.

Learning about nutrition and how food affects your body leads you to make actual lifestyle changes. In how you grocery shop, in what restaurants you choose to eat at, and in what you crave when you are hungry. One day, I want to be craving some fresh grapes or blueberries INSTEAD of ice cream and pop tarts. Not that I will never ever eat those, but I want it to be a once a month or less rarity that I am not bothered by, BECAUSE I enjoy healthy foods more than I do now! It's all about being satisfied by the choices you make, ultimately, but who says you can't slowly train your brain to choose healthier foods instead of always reverting back to wanting your daily helping of junk?

myofibril

Oh dear, I don't have to follow many of these links to find a sorry collection of cranks and people trying to sell you snake oil and I wouldn't call that research. As for professionals moving in the wrong direction................... now how many times have I heard that the experts were wrong and someone who can tell a good anecdote (true or false) or who clearly has an interest in what he can sell you, is right.

My friend can I recommend a book to you "Bad Science" by Ben Goldacre, maybe put some of this stuff in perspective and point out the value of true documented trials under controlled conditions. I doubt you'd like what you'd read but it might be an education for you.

Do you think that conventional medicine should fail to consider or examine the potential benefits that alternative medicine can bring on a therapeutic basis?

I can assure you that many young doctors or undergrads don't share that view...

DavPul

...even professionals are leading you in the wrong direction. Learning about proper nutrition will save you a lot of wasted time and you'll get to your goals faster.

When I take on clients I make them do ridiculous amounts of research. Its not enough for me to just summarize things to them. People always end up trying to tweak things when they don't understand the mechanics of proper nutrition. It never works out as well as it could have. I always tell them that if they spent two less hours training a week and used those two hours to read they would inevitably reach their goals faster in the long run. I believe that when I say it.

There are people, trainers, professionals, who will want to tell you that by focusing on what kinds of foods you eat, you are displaying "orthorexic" tendencies. Orthorexic is defined by Alan Aragon as “an unhealthy obsession with eating healthy food.”

Don't listen. Obviously food shouldn't consume your every waking thought, and you should enjoy your life and your friends, but a care and a concern for the things you put in your mouth can serve you incredibly well on your journey. Do you want to have a stronger, healthier body? Do you want to avoid disease? Do you want to recover faster, require less sleep, function at a more optimal level? Do you want to be bounding up stairs at 60, 70 years old? Do you want to be doing yoga when you're 80 like I do?

Then here are some great resources to help get you started!

http://www.westonaprice.org/

http://chriskresser.com/

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/

http://wrightnewsletter.com/about/

http://www.ted.com/talks/william_li.html

http://www.eattodefeatcancer.org/

http://www.drweil.com/

http://drkevinlau.blogspot.com/

If you read all that you'd know more than ~99% of people everywhere. You can learn it in a month easily. Spend all your time learning. But if you want to ask questions, that's not a bad thing either.

Oh dear, I don't have to follow many of these links to find a sorry collection of cranks and people trying to sell you snake oil and I wouldn't call that research. As for professionals moving in the wrong direction................... now how many times have I heard that the experts were wrong and someone who can tell a good anecdote (true or false) or who clearly has an interest in what he can sell you, is right.

My friend can I recommend a book to you "Bad Science" by Ben Goldacre, maybe put some of this stuff in perspective and point out the value of true documented trials under controlled conditions. I doubt you'd like what you'd read but it might be an education for you.

What I got out of that reply:

^^ What I got out of this reply
















.........sorry, i got nuthin