You Should Study Nutrition - The Other Perspective
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bump - so when I have time I can read all that!0
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I agree with you, but I have to wonder why there's this automatic knee jerk reaction opposing understanding nutrition, how the body works and removing unhealthy choices from how we eat? It's like folks want to eat pop tarts and feel smug about it?
that's exactly what it is, and no - i don't understand it either.
On the other hand, I don't know why there's this automatic knee jerk reaction that opposes moderation. It's like people want to be super restrictive and feel smug about it......
do you think i oppose moderation when I say 10-20% of your calories can be discretionary?
Yes.
Good for you for eating a pop tart. I honestly was giving you some credit last week when you agreed to disagree or had a rational discussion about a couple of points.
However, I'm not giving you a moderation merit badge just yet. I think you are have very extreme viewpoints about food. And I'm pretty sure you've argued them quite often here. My concern is that people get sucked in by the "clean" (paleo/vegan/lowcarb/juicing/cleansing/etc/etc/etc) viewpoints - they often struggle to maintain that extreme. Some people thrive on it (kudos to you, I guess!) but many, many more cannot maintain it and it sets them up for further failure.
I've been interested in eating organically grown, locally grown, unprocessed, whole foods for over 30 years. I think there are a couple of reasons why it can be hard to maintain this type of diet:
1. Expense
2. Availability of whole foods
As far as the expense . . . you can help cut down the cost by growing a good portion of your own food, or by joining a CSA, or food co-op. We have 2 acres and we can grow A LOT of food and put up A LOT of food (freeze, can, dehydrate, cold storage). Also, the cost of disease is greater than the cost of eating healthy.
As far as the availability of organic, locally grown whole foods . . . FINALLY these foods are becoming more mainstream!! There is a world of difference compared to now and 30+ years ago when I was seeking clean whole foods. And the movement is growing daily. :flowerforyou: :flowerforyou: :flowerforyou: :flowerforyou: :flowerforyou:
Otherwise there are minor factors that can contribute to someone falling off the wagon of eating whole foods. For instance, peer pressure from junk food eaters.0 -
However, I'm not giving you a moderation merit badge just yet. I think you are have very extreme viewpoints about food. And I'm pretty sure you've argued them quite often here. My concern is that people get sucked in by the "clean" (paleo/vegan/lowcarb/juicing/cleansing/etc/etc/etc) viewpoints - they often struggle to maintain that extreme. Some people thrive on it (kudos to you, I guess!) but many, many more cannot maintain it and it sets them up for further failure.
I eat clean but I approve this message. I eat clean because I prefer it. If I hadn't seen and love the results, I wouldn't be doing it.
If you haven't tried it, you should. If you tried it and you were miserable, well, there you go.0 -
Damnit .... I had a long beautiful rant 85% written and my browser crashed and I lost it. :-)0
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Oh dear, I don't have to follow many of these links to find a sorry collection of cranks and people trying to sell you snake oil and I wouldn't call that research. As for professionals moving in the wrong direction................... now how many times have I heard that the experts were wrong and someone who can tell a good anecdote (true or false) or who clearly has an interest in what he can sell you, is right.
My friend can I recommend a book to you "Bad Science" by Ben Goldacre, maybe put some of this stuff in perspective and point out the value of true documented trials under controlled conditions. I doubt you'd like what you'd read but it might be an education for you.
Do you think that conventional medicine should fail to consider or examine the potential benefits that alternative medicine can bring on a therapeutic basis?
I can assure you that many young doctors or undergrads don't share that view...
No not at all, there should be no limits on investigation, but it has to be carried out in a controlled fashion so the results are believable. Take homeopathy for example, it has no scientific basis, and there has been no controlled study which shows it is effective, indeed there is a $1 million prize available for anyone who can prove it works in controlled conditions. Strangely not a single homeopath has taken up the challenge.
And yes there is an unmeasurable benefit, the placebo effect, which is very real and documented in actual trials, from pharma and alternative therapies, but it is not repeatable, ie two people who have the same disease can have very different results, not the case with properly tested drugs (and that is not always the case either!)
All I can say is read the book.0 -
I prefer my research from medical and other peer reviewed journals. AJCN, Pub-med, EJCN, Science and others are great resources.
But thanks anyway.0 -
Since it seems you are referring to what you believe to be doing "good" for people, I think that's great. I do not like to discount others approaches along the way. There are many ways to reach an answer. 1+3=4 so does 2+2 or even 1+1+1.
I believe you have to do what works for your clients with their best interest in mind . If it is unrealistic for them to eat whole, clean, whatever..... then it will not work for that individual client.
I have seen dirty bulks work, clean bulks...but what works for one may not work for all. Here's an idea that works for just about everyone who wants to lose weight. Here comes the secret...ready
Eat less calories than you burn and eat what fits into your lifestyle.
I used to go to the movies and dine out every weekend with my wife....well now we have 3 children and we do not have time to do those things together as much.....are we still happy..absolutely.
Using this philosophy you can eat any diet you want...high fat, high carb, high protein, clean, vegetarian, vegan, atkins, slim fast, weight watchers....whatever....
Some methods may get you there faster than others and may provide more nutritional value than others..but when it all comes down to it. You have to burn more than your intake. On the other hand if you want to gain...well burn less than your caloric intake.
I do not think its prudent to push a nutritional belief upon any person. That's how religion, nutrition, and politics are very similar. Everyone has an opinion.
Don't get me wrong...I like your post and the links are great reading (no I have not read them all). Good luck and continued success for you and your clients.0 -
traditional doctors would be viewed the same way if they weren't paid by pharmaceutical industries and insurance companies, and instead had to sell prescriptions to you themselves on an individual basis.
^So true!0 -
Oh dear, I don't have to follow many of these links to find a sorry collection of cranks and people trying to sell you snake oil and I wouldn't call that research. As for professionals moving in the wrong direction................... now how many times have I heard that the experts were wrong and someone who can tell a good anecdote (true or false) or who clearly has an interest in what he can sell you, is right.
My friend can I recommend a book to you "Bad Science" by Ben Goldacre, maybe put some of this stuff in perspective and point out the value of true documented trials under controlled conditions. I doubt you'd like what you'd read but it might be an education for you.
Do you think that conventional medicine should fail to consider or examine the potential benefits that alternative medicine can bring on a therapeutic basis?
I can assure you that many young doctors or undergrads don't share that view...
No not at all, there should be no limits on investigation, but it has to be carried out in a controlled fashion so the results are believable. Take homeopathy for example, it has no scientific basis, and there has been no controlled study which shows it is effective, indeed there is a $1 million prize available for anyone who can prove it works in controlled conditions. Strangely not a single homeopath has taken up the challenge.
And yes there is an unmeasurable benefit, the placebo effect, which is very real and documented in actual trials, from pharma and alternative therapies, but it is not repeatable, ie two people who have the same disease can have very different results, not the case with properly tested drugs (and that is not always the case either!)
All I can say is read the book.
Good post and I certainly agree. It's probably a wise idea if you are experiencing an MI to make your way to the nearest hospital. If you want to practice putting yourself in a meditative state along the way for good measure then not a problem but the conventional route should probably take precedence
The problem with nutritional science is there are large grey areas to be explored. We know a few things as relatively certain but not many. In addition, dieting or health is not simply a matter of physiology but also psychology - there is a strong mind / body connection. Therefore the best we can do is probabilities in many cases - and probabilities do not always come to pass.
Will check out the book if I have time 0 -
Since it seems you are referring to what you believe to be doing "good" for people, I think that's great. I do not like to discount others approaches along the way. There are many ways to reach an answer. 1+3=4 so does 2+2 or even 1+1+1.
I believe you have to do what works for your clients with their best interest in mind . If it is unrealistic for them to eat whole, clean, whatever..... then it will not work for that individual client.
I have seen dirty bulks work, clean bulks...but what works for one may not work for all. Here's an idea that works for just about everyone who wants to lose weight. Here comes the secret...ready
Eat less calories than you burn and eat what fits into your lifestyle.
I used to go to the movies and dine out every weekend with my wife....well now we have 3 children and we do not have time to do those things together as much.....are we still happy..absolutely.
Using this philosophy you can eat any diet you want...high fat, high carb, high protein, clean, vegetarian, vegan, atkins, slim fast, weight watchers....whatever....
Some methods may get you there faster than others and may provide more nutritional value than others..but when it all comes down to it. You have to burn more than your intake. On the other hand if you want to gain...well burn less than your caloric intake.
I do not think its prudent to push a nutritional belief upon any person. That's how religion, nutrition, and politics are very similar. Everyone has an opinion.
Don't get me wrong...I like your post and the links are great reading (no I have not read them all). Good luck and continued success for you and your clients.
thanks for this post. i absolutely agree with everything you just said. this post was meant to offer an alternative point of view, not to say mine is inherently better than any other.
i could also do an identical post supporting veganism, or any other dietary philosophy. the point is - everyone should do their research, and decide what's right for them. these are simply some of my favorite sources.0 -
Oh dear, I don't have to follow many of these links to find a sorry collection of cranks and people trying to sell you snake oil and I wouldn't call that research. As for professionals moving in the wrong direction................... now how many times have I heard that the experts were wrong and someone who can tell a good anecdote (true or false) or who clearly has an interest in what he can sell you, is right.
My friend can I recommend a book to you "Bad Science" by Ben Goldacre, maybe put some of this stuff in perspective and point out the value of true documented trials under controlled conditions. I doubt you'd like what you'd read but it might be an education for you.
Do you think that conventional medicine should fail to consider or examine the potential benefits that alternative medicine can bring on a therapeutic basis?
I can assure you that many young doctors or undergrads don't share that view...
No not at all, there should be no limits on investigation, but it has to be carried out in a controlled fashion so the results are believable. Take homeopathy for example, it has no scientific basis, and there has been no controlled study which shows it is effective, indeed there is a $1 million prize available for anyone who can prove it works in controlled conditions. Strangely not a single homeopath has taken up the challenge.
And yes there is an unmeasurable benefit, the placebo effect, which is very real and documented in actual trials, from pharma and alternative therapies, but it is not repeatable, ie two people who have the same disease can have very different results, not the case with properly tested drugs (and that is not always the case either!)
All I can say is read the book.
I agree with everything here!
Also, I've never seen a chiropractor and try to make it a general habit to stay away from them and other fake doctors.
Also, my doc doesn't get paid by insurance companies or drug companies and cannot prescribe anything other than generics. So any concern on that front is wildly misguided.
I eat clean 90% of the time but only because that's what I prefer. I ate mostly clean and got fat, ate mostly clean and maintained and now am eating mostly clean and losing weight.0 -
I prefer my research from medical and other peer reviewed journals. AJCN, Pub-med, EJCN, Science and others are great resources.
But thanks anyway.
Not sure if you were referring to homeopathy or diet. But here's a Pub-med study on homeopathy.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/228182350 -
Oh dear, I don't have to follow many of these links to find a sorry collection of cranks and people trying to sell you snake oil and I wouldn't call that research. As for professionals moving in the wrong direction................... now how many times have I heard that the experts were wrong and someone who can tell a good anecdote (true or false) or who clearly has an interest in what he can sell you, is right.
My friend can I recommend a book to you "Bad Science" by Ben Goldacre, maybe put some of this stuff in perspective and point out the value of true documented trials under controlled conditions. I doubt you'd like what you'd read but it might be an education for you.
Do you think that conventional medicine should fail to consider or examine the potential benefits that alternative medicine can bring on a therapeutic basis?
I can assure you that many young doctors or undergrads don't share that view...
No not at all, there should be no limits on investigation, but it has to be carried out in a controlled fashion so the results are believable. Take homeopathy for example, it has no scientific basis, and there has been no controlled study which shows it is effective, indeed there is a $1 million prize available for anyone who can prove it works in controlled conditions. Strangely not a single homeopath has taken up the challenge.
And yes there is an unmeasurable benefit, the placebo effect, which is very real and documented in actual trials, from pharma and alternative therapies, but it is not repeatable, ie two people who have the same disease can have very different results, not the case with properly tested drugs (and that is not always the case either!)
All I can say is read the book.
I agree with everything here!
Also, I've never seen a chiropractor and try to make it a general habit to stay away from them and other fake doctors.
Also, my doc doesn't get paid by insurance companies or drug companies and cannot prescribe anything other than generics. So any concern on that front is wildly misguided.
I eat clean 90% of the time but only because that's what I prefer. I ate mostly clean and got fat, ate mostly clean and maintained and now am eating mostly clean and losing weight.
to say that any concern on that front is wildly misguided based on your experience with one doctor is also wildly misguided... to be fair...0 -
Since it seems you are referring to what you believe to be doing "good" for people, I think that's great. I do not like to discount others approaches along the way. There are many ways to reach an answer. 1+3=4 so does 2+2 or even 1+1+1.
Um, not really... Just saying.
[I agree with you but this part made me lol.]0 -
Oh dear, I don't have to follow many of these links to find a sorry collection of cranks and people trying to sell you snake oil and I wouldn't call that research. As for professionals moving in the wrong direction................... now how many times have I heard that the experts were wrong and someone who can tell a good anecdote (true or false) or who clearly has an interest in what he can sell you, is right.
My friend can I recommend a book to you "Bad Science" by Ben Goldacre, maybe put some of this stuff in perspective and point out the value of true documented trials under controlled conditions. I doubt you'd like what you'd read but it might be an education for you.
Do you think that conventional medicine should fail to consider or examine the potential benefits that alternative medicine can bring on a therapeutic basis?
I can assure you that many young doctors or undergrads don't share that view...
No not at all, there should be no limits on investigation, but it has to be carried out in a controlled fashion so the results are believable. Take homeopathy for example, it has no scientific basis, and there has been no controlled study which shows it is effective, indeed there is a $1 million prize available for anyone who can prove it works in controlled conditions. Strangely not a single homeopath has taken up the challenge.
And yes there is an unmeasurable benefit, the placebo effect, which is very real and documented in actual trials, from pharma and alternative therapies, but it is not repeatable, ie two people who have the same disease can have very different results, not the case with properly tested drugs (and that is not always the case either!)
All I can say is read the book.
I don't think mice are affected by the placebo effect.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/228182350 -
Oh dear, I don't have to follow many of these links to find a sorry collection of cranks and people trying to sell you snake oil and I wouldn't call that research. As for professionals moving in the wrong direction................... now how many times have I heard that the experts were wrong and someone who can tell a good anecdote (true or false) or who clearly has an interest in what he can sell you, is right.
My friend can I recommend a book to you "Bad Science" by Ben Goldacre, maybe put some of this stuff in perspective and point out the value of true documented trials under controlled conditions. I doubt you'd like what you'd read but it might be an education for you.
Do you think that conventional medicine should fail to consider or examine the potential benefits that alternative medicine can bring on a therapeutic basis?
I can assure you that many young doctors or undergrads don't share that view...
No not at all, there should be no limits on investigation, but it has to be carried out in a controlled fashion so the results are believable. Take homeopathy for example, it has no scientific basis, and there has been no controlled study which shows it is effective, indeed there is a $1 million prize available for anyone who can prove it works in controlled conditions. Strangely not a single homeopath has taken up the challenge.
And yes there is an unmeasurable benefit, the placebo effect, which is very real and documented in actual trials, from pharma and alternative therapies, but it is not repeatable, ie two people who have the same disease can have very different results, not the case with properly tested drugs (and that is not always the case either!)
All I can say is read the book.
I agree with everything here!
Also, I've never seen a chiropractor and try to make it a general habit to stay away from them and other fake doctors.
Also, my doc doesn't get paid by insurance companies or drug companies and cannot prescribe anything other than generics. So any concern on that front is wildly misguided.
I eat clean 90% of the time but only because that's what I prefer. I ate mostly clean and got fat, ate mostly clean and maintained and now am eating mostly clean and losing weight.
to say that any concern on that front is wildly misguided based on your experience with one doctor is also wildly misguided... to be fair...
It's been my experience with every doctor I've had for the last 10 years
You could be right when it comes to some doctors but you are definitely wrong when it comes to others. To suggest that all doctors are in the pockets of big pharma and only prescribing medications for the kickbacks and insurance payouts is ridiculous.
I understand that you had a bad experience with a doctor prescribing medication for you but just like my experience isn't representative of the entire medical practice, neither is yours.0 -
Oh dear, I don't have to follow many of these links to find a sorry collection of cranks and people trying to sell you snake oil and I wouldn't call that research. As for professionals moving in the wrong direction................... now how many times have I heard that the experts were wrong and someone who can tell a good anecdote (true or false) or who clearly has an interest in what he can sell you, is right.
My friend can I recommend a book to you "Bad Science" by Ben Goldacre, maybe put some of this stuff in perspective and point out the value of true documented trials under controlled conditions. I doubt you'd like what you'd read but it might be an education for you.
Do you think that conventional medicine should fail to consider or examine the potential benefits that alternative medicine can bring on a therapeutic basis?
I can assure you that many young doctors or undergrads don't share that view...
No not at all, there should be no limits on investigation, but it has to be carried out in a controlled fashion so the results are believable. Take homeopathy for example, it has no scientific basis, and there has been no controlled study which shows it is effective, indeed there is a $1 million prize available for anyone who can prove it works in controlled conditions. Strangely not a single homeopath has taken up the challenge.
And yes there is an unmeasurable benefit, the placebo effect, which is very real and documented in actual trials, from pharma and alternative therapies, but it is not repeatable, ie two people who have the same disease can have very different results, not the case with properly tested drugs (and that is not always the case either!)
All I can say is read the book.
I agree with everything here!
Also, I've never seen a chiropractor and try to make it a general habit to stay away from them and other fake doctors.
Also, my doc doesn't get paid by insurance companies or drug companies and cannot prescribe anything other than generics. So any concern on that front is wildly misguided.
I eat clean 90% of the time but only because that's what I prefer. I ate mostly clean and got fat, ate mostly clean and maintained and now am eating mostly clean and losing weight.
to say that any concern on that front is wildly misguided based on your experience with one doctor is also wildly misguided... to be fair...
It's been my experience with every doctor I've had for the last 10 years
You could be right when it comes to some doctors but you are definitely wrong when it comes to others. To suggest that all doctors are in the pockets of big pharma and only prescribing medications for the kickbacks and insurance payouts is ridiculous.
I understand that you had a bad experience with a doctor prescribing medication for you but just like my experience isn't representative of the entire medical practice, neither is yours.
i'm not saying they do it maliciously - the exact opposite! they're just doing what they're trained to do and what they believe to be right - in the EXACT same way holistic doctors are! it's just that holistic doctors AREN'T PAID by insurance companies, and thus have to charge the consumer directly.
does that clear up my point? it's an institutional issue, not a malicious one on the part of the doctors themselves.0 -
Oh dear, I don't have to follow many of these links to find a sorry collection of cranks and people trying to sell you snake oil and I wouldn't call that research. As for professionals moving in the wrong direction................... now how many times have I heard that the experts were wrong and someone who can tell a good anecdote (true or false) or who clearly has an interest in what he can sell you, is right.
My friend can I recommend a book to you "Bad Science" by Ben Goldacre, maybe put some of this stuff in perspective and point out the value of true documented trials under controlled conditions. I doubt you'd like what you'd read but it might be an education for you.
Do you think that conventional medicine should fail to consider or examine the potential benefits that alternative medicine can bring on a therapeutic basis?
I can assure you that many young doctors or undergrads don't share that view...
No not at all, there should be no limits on investigation, but it has to be carried out in a controlled fashion so the results are believable. Take homeopathy for example, it has no scientific basis, and there has been no controlled study which shows it is effective, indeed there is a $1 million prize available for anyone who can prove it works in controlled conditions. Strangely not a single homeopath has taken up the challenge.
And yes there is an unmeasurable benefit, the placebo effect, which is very real and documented in actual trials, from pharma and alternative therapies, but it is not repeatable, ie two people who have the same disease can have very different results, not the case with properly tested drugs (and that is not always the case either!)
All I can say is read the book.
I don't think mice are affected by the placebo effect.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22818235
So where is the 1 million dollar prize you speak of? Do I collect it through you?0 -
I took a nutrition class and it was surprisingly dull and uninformative. I really didn't need a whole class to introduce me to the USDA food pyramid. The standard nutritional recommendations don't seem very trustworthy to me. The entire field seems like a very unsettled matter.0
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Thanks for posting. Truth or Lies - it's more information for me.0
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