For those of you that invite others to objectify you:

CorvusCorax77

Yeah, it seems innocent when you do it in a bang/marry thread. But the fact that these threads exist, and the fact that people participate in them, is simply a manifestation of a much bigger problem with our culture.

Does the solution begin with not having such threads? That's faulty logic.

This is a case of "the world would be a better place if our entire society woke up tomorrow morning and was different". Which is 1:00am stoned in the dormitory talk, not 10:45am weight loss website talk.

Well, Butthurtz, you do have a good point here...because I happen to agree with Jonnythan that there is a big problem with our culture and objectification of women (and men, but mostly women). I also believe rape culture is a very big deal, and I have seen in both my professional life and in my private life, many rapists go free. But, at the same time, I don't actually agree with OP that these forums the bang/date/marry forums are really the problem. Her position that we are "inviting people to objectify us" in those threads just seems a bit extreme to me. Yes, we are to some extent, but I also think in reality it is all very *VERY* light hearted and in the context of this site it seems pretty harmless to me.

I do appreciate the OP posting though and this conversation happening.

CorvusCorax77

i am offended that some little tree hugging hippy thinking he's got womens' backs on this because he can talk complete drivel and make it sound educated and on point thinks he has the right to say i'm part of "rape culture"

Now you're offended? Oh my.

didn't fancy quoting the rest then?

The rest was nonsensical. The part I quoted was funny and ironic.

you have no point to make at all, infact going over some of your posts i'm saying you're a troll no one could be that extreme on something so minor

nonsensical? have you read some of the BS you've been posting? jesus if you spoke like that in public you'd be put in a mental home, and tbh... you probably should anyway

No, he would probably be given tenure.

Sorry, but brains can get you a long way.

eric_sg61

But who was OP?

trojanbb

i am offended that some little tree hugging hippy thinking he's got womens' backs on this because he can talk complete drivel and make it sound educated and on point thinks he has the right to say i'm part of "rape culture"

Now you're offended? Oh my.

didn't fancy quoting the rest then?

The rest was nonsensical. The part I quoted was funny and ironic.

you have no point to make at all, infact going over some of your posts i'm saying you're a troll no one could be that extreme on something so minor

nonsensical? have you read some of the BS you've been posting? jesus if you spoke like that in public you'd be put in a mental home, and tbh... you probably should anyway

No, he would probably be given tenure.

A reflection of the pathetic state of affairs in education, especially concerning topics like this.

Jerrypeoples

whether anyone wants to admit it or not, looks are always what gets someone noticed. personality traits are what keep folks interested for the long haul.

i dont take what anyone has to say on here, negatively or positively about my posts, my looks or just how freaking awesome i am. its the internet, as far as i know everyone is an old man in a trench coat trying to pick me up

cookiealbright

What the heck is going on here? People are too serious. Let's have some fun! :flowerforyou:

BeachGingerOnTheRocks

Goodness, people take some things way too seriously.

I don't participate in the threads for the most part. On a bad day, I might go in and "kick" people while I'm sporting a cartoon avatar or make a monopoly joke, but other than that, I don't pay them a lot of mind. They're there for other people to enjoy.

Interfering or downing someone else's enjoyment is just ..... a buzzkill.

Timshel_

You invite them to make a value judgement of your body, and they begin to make those judgements about others.

Of course. That is kind of the point and not for anyone thin skinned. If you don't like it, you stay out.

trojanbb

You invite them to make a value judgement of your body, and they begin to make those judgements about others.

Of course. That is kind of the point and not for anyone thin skinned. If you don't like it, you stay out.

But you are willingly perpetuating rape culture!

/sarcasm

BurtHuttz

Well, Butthurtz, you do have a good point here...because I happen to agree with Jonnythan that there is a big problem with our culture and objectification of women (and men, but mostly women). I also believe rape culture is a very big deal, and I have seen in both my professional life and in my private life, many rapists go free. But, at the same time, I don't actually agree with OP that these forums the bang/date/marry forums are really the problem. Her position that we are "inviting people to objectify us" in those threads just seems a bit extreme to me. Yes, we are to some extent, but I also think in reality it is all very *VERY* light hearted and in the context of this site it seems pretty harmless to me.

I do appreciate the OP posting though and this conversation happening.

First of all, young lady, it's BurtHuttz.

But also it's a shame things have gotten so conflated; we've got a disjointed argument about whether rape culture exists versus whether rate/date threads are a symptom of it. The OP's was a pretty strident position to take in the first place and as usual the argument has drifted.

Jerrypeoples

Goodness, people take some things way too seriously.

I don't participate in the threads for the most part. On a bad day, I might go in and "kick" people while I'm sporting a cartoon avatar or make a monopoly joke, but other than that, I don't pay them a lot of mind. They're there for other people to enjoy.

Interfering or downing someone else's enjoyment is just ..... a buzzkill.

bang!

Timshel_

But you are willingly perpetuating rape culture!

I know, right? Like everyone with a gun is just a killer in waiting, everyone replying "would Bang" is a closet rapist?

I do think there is a level of harm when younger adults (high school) are over exposed to this type of situational, judegemental, superficial stuff, but that is a whole different thing. Just reminds me as a parent to help kids understand how to internal self-worth as as an internal reference and not something external.

CorvusCorax77

Well, Butthurtz, you do have a good point here...because I happen to agree with Jonnythan that there is a big problem with our culture and objectification of women (and men, but mostly women). I also believe rape culture is a very big deal, and I have seen in both my professional life and in my private life, many rapists go free. But, at the same time, I don't actually agree with OP that these forums the bang/date/marry forums are really the problem. Her position that we are "inviting people to objectify us" in those threads just seems a bit extreme to me. Yes, we are to some extent, but I also think in reality it is all very *VERY* light hearted and in the context of this site it seems pretty harmless to me.

I do appreciate the OP posting though and this conversation happening.

First of all, young lady, it's BurtHuttz.

But also it's a shame things have gotten so conflated; we've got a disjointed argument about whether rape culture exists versus whether rate/date threads are a symptom of it. The OP's was a pretty strident position to take in the first place and as usual the argument has drifted.

My bad on the name

Yeah, I don't think these threads are rape culture at all. I don't think objectification of women is necessarily rape culture...but I think in some contexts it could be. But yeah....

MireyGal76

here's an analogy, and I hope I don't screw this up...

I kind of see it this way...

When you look at consensual sex... People choose to partake in such activities willingly. If both parties are willing, then there's nothing wrong... right?
When one party chooses to force their intent on another party, that becomes non-consensual sex, and it is considered rape.

Does consensual sex encourage rape? No.
Does rape mean that consensual sex is wrong? No.
It means that someone chose to act in a way that is WRONG and against social acceptability and CHOSE to violate another person.


I will draw the parallel here, but note - this is an analogy... I am NOT claiming rape.

The rate / date threads... are consensual.
When someone comes out of those threads and starts rating everyone they meet... that is not consensual, and in my opinion, can be very very wrong, and harmful.

Does this mean that the rate / date threads are wrong? IMO, no.
Does this mean that the rate / date threads encourage harmful violation of individuals? IMO, no. No more so than consensual sex encourages rape.

What does it mean? It means that there will always be a douchecanoe (male or female) who will cross boundaries and violate another because THEIR personal needs are more important that everyone elses.



Good god I hope that came out right.

CorvusCorax77

A reflection of the pathetic state of affairs in education, especially concerning topics like this.

I really think that Jonnythan's contributions to the discussion, at least all the ones I have seen, were pretty thoughtful. I appreciate that he doesn't take any mention of rape culture or sexism personally. I think it is interesting when a woman such as myself mentions rape culture or sexism, some men have these intense knee jerk defensive reactions and call me a man hater. The irony is, I don't think all men are rapists, but the people who think I hate all men because I hate rapists are implying that they do.

kennethmgreen

When you post things like "bang, date, marry?" or "cute, hot, or sexy?" and ask people to objectify you, you are training them to think of everyone around them in those terms. You invite them to make a value judgement of your body, and they begin to make those judgements about others. I speak not just on behalf of women but of everyone on this site. Our culture places way too much value on judgements about people. Is it not enough to just be what you are? Do you have to be "bangable" or "flirty" or have all of these other labels attached to you? And if you do, could you handle that somewhere other than a site for folks who aren't satisfied with their bodies anyways? I realize an ego boost is nice, and I don't mind getting ego boosts every so often, but maybe the place for that is your personal profile or a "hot or not" site.

I can't tell you guys what to post or what to think- the purpose of this post is to invite some discussion about how we create these labels and values for each other and ourselves even as they make us uncomfortable or sad. Many women feel that a "male-dominated culture" has set up these cages of self-judgement for them, but then they go out in pants that say "juicy" across their butts or ask others how hot they are from 1-10. I try really hard to avoid these types of discussions, firstly because beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and secondly because I feel that I have value in and of myself, not just when I'm given a number or a name.

What do you guys think? Do you like it when people tell you you're a certain type of person? Do you like it when people rate you? Do you think others like it when you rate them?

Wow. I looked at your profile. You've been here over a year. This was your third post - nearly 10 months after your second post to the forum. I'm kinda bummed you're not more active. I think you have a lot to say.

I agree with the stance you take in your OP. I like that you don't come across whiny, or that you're placing expectations on your audience. You're not telling people how to think, but asking for a discussion. I respect that.

There are a 15+ pages to this thread, and I haven't read them all. I don't know how serious your questions have been taken. I'm sure there are some funny jokes. Venturing into a serious discussion about something that gets taken so lightly is difficult enough in person. Attempting it on a public forum can be shaky. From what I've read so far, though, a good percentage of people have contributed thoughtful discourse.

Objectifying women (or men, though the problem exists mostly for women) is a serious topic. But it's also an enormous playing field for jokes, many of which are genuinely funny. (to me, at least) So how do we address the serious and still allow ourselves to laugh? That's a tough one. Are jokes about race funny? Yeah, sometimes - despite the serious problem of racism. What about jokes about cancer? Again, sometimes funny.

I think the issue with perpetuating the objectification, and taking it so lightly, is that there can be an imbalance of seriousness between the one objectifying and the one who is being objectified. A woman that posts a picture of herself in a bikini to show off her progress wants to be objectified to some extent. She might enjoy the attention from some people. But when someone won't stop making lewd comments, or sending creeper PMs, it's not fun any more.

But that's an easy example. Where does the fun line exist? You seem reasonable enough to know that even in the strictest, dour interpretation of your line of questions, there are some people that are truly just having fun - on both sides of the "would bang" dynamic. How much of that dynamic contributes to things like the degradation of women, rape culture, etc. is tough to figure out.

Your thread title had me originally thinking you were posting a lecture. But that wasn't what you did, and I commend you for it. You're digging at the motivations of those who willingly participate in the objectification, discussing the desire to feel good based on someone else's "rating." I think the ideas of "beauty" and "attractiveness" have been shoved down our throats for decades. I think how we feel about ourselves physically - and more important (and perhaps dangerously), how we feel about how others see us contributes so much to the problems you and this thread are bringing up.

I realize that I may be treading into the unpopular arena of "victim blaming" - that those who suffer abuse play a role in the abuse. I am raising two daughters, so believe me when I say that I am sensitive to this issue. But I do think our attitudes as a whole around objectification are not entirely shaped by the objectifiers. And as a father of two girls, I cannot control what others think of them. I can, however, teach and show them ways to have confidence, be respectful of themselves, and maintain dignity in the face of mistreatment, including being objectified. That's not to say I would expect them (or me) to do nothing were they mistreated. But I don't have to be solely reactionary.

Lots of interesting perspectives and some good points brought up in this thread already. I'll keep reading. Thanks for posting and getting the discussion going.

FireEngineRedHead

Well, Butthurtz, you do have a good point here...because I happen to agree with Jonnythan that there is a big problem with our culture and objectification of women (and men, but mostly women). I also believe rape culture is a very big deal, and I have seen in both my professional life and in my private life, many rapists go free. But, at the same time, I don't actually agree with OP that these forums the bang/date/marry forums are really the problem. Her position that we are "inviting people to objectify us" in those threads just seems a bit extreme to me. Yes, we are to some extent, but I also think in reality it is all very *VERY* light hearted and in the context of this site it seems pretty harmless to me.

I do appreciate the OP posting though and this conversation happening.

First of all, young lady, it's BurtHuttz.

But also it's a shame things have gotten so conflated; we've got a disjointed argument about whether rape culture exists versus whether rate/date threads are a symptom of it. The OP's was a pretty strident position to take in the first place and as usual the argument has drifted.

:laugh: ButtHurtz omfg.

PomegranatePriestess

Good god I hope that came out right.

It did. And it's my turn to agree with you. :drinker:

I've been lurking, as I'm sure plenty of other people are. In keeping with your analogy, do you find it ironic, then, that several people responded to the OP with a rating, and several with the idea that the OP just needs a good lay?

PomegranatePriestess

A reflection of the pathetic state of affairs in education, especially concerning topics like this.

I really think that Jonnythan's contributions to the discussion, at least all the ones I have seen, were pretty thoughtful. I appreciate that he doesn't take any mention of rape culture or sexism personally. I think it is interesting when a woman such as myself mentions rape culture or sexism, some men have these intense knee jerk defensive reactions and call me a man hater. The irony is, I don't think all men are rapists, but the people who think I hate all men because I hate rapists are implying that they do.

That's because, like Fight Club, the first rule of rape culture is...

iAMsmiling

A reflection of the pathetic state of affairs in education, especially concerning topics like this.

I really think that Jonnythan's contributions to the discussion, at least all the ones I have seen, were pretty thoughtful. I appreciate that he doesn't take any mention of rape culture or sexism personally. I think it is interesting when a woman such as myself mentions rape culture or sexism, some men have these intense knee jerk defensive reactions and call me a man hater. The irony is, I don't think all men are rapists, but the people who think I hate all men because I hate rapists are implying that they do.

Your good intentions aside, I think you'll find most men feel they are being included with the rapist. There are enough people out there equating what we all see as harmless and consensual fun to contributing to rape. Some of us are pretty sensitive about that.
Sexist or not, I was raised to revere women and to protect them from the type of person that generalization associates me with. My reaction to that generalization is bound to be visceral.

MireyGal76

Good god I hope that came out right.

It did. And it's my turn to agree with you. :drinker:

I've been lurking, as I'm sure plenty of other people are. In keeping with your analogy, do you find it ironic, then, that several people responded to the OP with a rating, and several with the idea that the OP just needs a good lay?

I do find it ironic, and (somewhat sadly) not unexpected either. The OP made it clear that she is not consenting, and those who chose to rate her or comment on her need for a lay, intentionally stepped out and did it anyways. They saw it in humor, but did the OP?

It's tough - ETA - a really big stretch - to give a direct correlation between that and rape, but it's quite possible that the OP felt verbally assaulted by such comments. The verbal extension beyond assumed boundaries is not a direct parallel because of the fact that the boundaries are not as clearly defined. Does it extend to all chit chat topics, or just those threads, etc.

In any event, I do think people need to be aware that the rate threads are insulting to some who choose not to participate, and extending the "fun and games" outside those threads could be quite insulting, and potentially emotionally harmful to others.

*by emotionally harmful, I mean... if the OP had ever been sexually abused... having someone tell her she needed to be laid hard could trigger memories of that abuse and cause a very physical response to a comment meant in jest.


TL/DR: people, play in your sand boxes... but don't track the sand into other peoples houses. And save me a shovel from time to time.

jonnythan

A reflection of the pathetic state of affairs in education, especially concerning topics like this.

I really think that Jonnythan's contributions to the discussion, at least all the ones I have seen, were pretty thoughtful. I appreciate that he doesn't take any mention of rape culture or sexism personally. I think it is interesting when a woman such as myself mentions rape culture or sexism, some men have these intense knee jerk defensive reactions and call me a man hater. The irony is, I don't think all men are rapists, but the people who think I hate all men because I hate rapists are implying that they do.

Your good intentions aside, I think you'll find most men feel they are being included with the rapist. There are enough people out there equating what we all see as harmless and consensual fun to contributing to rape. Some of us are pretty sensitive about that.
Sexist or not, I was raised to revere women and to protect them from the type of person that generalization associates me with. My reaction to that generalization is bound to be visceral.

No one is being accused of being a rapist.

The idea I'm trying to convey is that "rape culture" is a product of the culture of the objectification of women in general. The OP's post was a response to and criticism of that.

nokanjaijo

A reflection of the pathetic state of affairs in education, especially concerning topics like this.

I really think that Jonnythan's contributions to the discussion, at least all the ones I have seen, were pretty thoughtful. I appreciate that he doesn't take any mention of rape culture or sexism personally. I think it is interesting when a woman such as myself mentions rape culture or sexism, some men have these intense knee jerk defensive reactions and call me a man hater. The irony is, I don't think all men are rapists, but the people who think I hate all men because I hate rapists are implying that they do.

Your good intentions aside, I think you'll find most men feel they are being included with the rapist. There are enough people out there equating what we all see as harmless and consensual fun to contributing to rape. Some of us are pretty sensitive about that.
Sexist or not, I was raised to revere women and to protect them from the type of person that generalization associates me with. My reaction to that generalization is bound to be visceral.

It is visceral to me, as a woman. Rape is so brutally traumatizing, I hate it when people use it to back up a their own petty opinions about how other people relax on a forum.

If you hate rape, and I do, then you wouldn't bandy it about carelessly in a trivial topic like this thread is doing.

GoldspursX3

WTF is the rape culture?

ApexLeader

When you post things like "bang, date, marry?" or "cute, hot, or sexy?" and ask people to objectify you, you are training them to think of everyone around them in those terms.

only if they are mindless drones

iAMsmiling

A reflection of the pathetic state of affairs in education, especially concerning topics like this.

I really think that Jonnythan's contributions to the discussion, at least all the ones I have seen, were pretty thoughtful. I appreciate that he doesn't take any mention of rape culture or sexism personally. I think it is interesting when a woman such as myself mentions rape culture or sexism, some men have these intense knee jerk defensive reactions and call me a man hater. The irony is, I don't think all men are rapists, but the people who think I hate all men because I hate rapists are implying that they do.

Your good intentions aside, I think you'll find most men feel they are being included with the rapist. There are enough people out there equating what we all see as harmless and consensual fun to contributing to rape. Some of us are pretty sensitive about that.
Sexist or not, I was raised to revere women and to protect them from the type of person that generalization associates me with. My reaction to that generalization is bound to be visceral.

It is visceral to me, as a woman. Rape is so brutally traumatizing, I hate it when people use it to back up a their own petty opinions about how other people relax on a forum.

If you hate rape, and I do, then you wouldn't bandy it about carelessly in a trivial topic like this thread is doing.

Agreed.
We have, as a culture, dumbed down the concepts of love, hate, racism and rape, just to name a few.
Everything, it seems, is fair game if you need to score points.

ApexLeader

WTF is the rape culture?

it is a culture where rape is practiced and acceptable, much like the United States as I can rape whomever I want and not have to suffer any consequences.

NormInv

To those saying its not serious and just internet, I met all my wives on MFP!

GoldspursX3

WTF is the rape culture?

it is a culture where rape is practiced and acceptable, much like the United States as I can rape whomever I want and not have to suffer any consequences.

Ah...how lovely.

iAMsmiling

A reflection of the pathetic state of affairs in education, especially concerning topics like this.

I really think that Jonnythan's contributions to the discussion, at least all the ones I have seen, were pretty thoughtful. I appreciate that he doesn't take any mention of rape culture or sexism personally. I think it is interesting when a woman such as myself mentions rape culture or sexism, some men have these intense knee jerk defensive reactions and call me a man hater. The irony is, I don't think all men are rapists, but the people who think I hate all men because I hate rapists are implying that they do.

Your good intentions aside, I think you'll find most men feel they are being included with the rapist. There are enough people out there equating what we all see as harmless and consensual fun to contributing to rape. Some of us are pretty sensitive about that.
Sexist or not, I was raised to revere women and to protect them from the type of person that generalization associates me with. My reaction to that generalization is bound to be visceral.

No one is being accused of being a rapist.

The idea I'm trying to convey is that "rape culture" is a product of the culture of the objectification of women in general. The OP's post was a response to and criticism of that.

Never said you made any such accusation. As I did say, participants in a harmless and consensual game are being generalized as part of a horrendous problem.
The effect is to shut down rational conversation. You can remain rational, you're only making the generalization. Try staying rational when you are grouped in with something you despise.