what's too much protein when bulking?
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Start with 1g/lb bw and go from there.0
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Lyle Mcdonald is not exactly a great reference, though he is often referenced for some reason. He knows his sh**, but someone who only thinks about things without being able to apply them to any real result is only right in theory.
I don't think any successful bodybuilder, strongman, or power lifter achieved any degree of success without following some hocus pocus bro tales of their own. The bottom line is what works for you and what you are comfortable apply to your achieve your goals will yield the best results...as long as consistency is on point, and you arent blatantly violating some fundamental rules of nutrition.
To answer your question, I usually eat a wide variety of carbohydrate. I find whole grains tend to keep me fuller on a diet, and help with my fiber requirement, not to mention they are much better in terms of micronutrients, vitamins, minerals. On the flip side, there's nothing technically wrong with non whole grains or breads, cereals, pastas, white potatoes, even cake, though you'd have to make up the micronutrients elsewhere. Also eating something like cake for your carb requirement is pretty bad in terms of "bang for buck".0 -
in order to gain mass you need protein, but what is too much? i've heard lots of different opinions
To gain mass you need "energy" not so much protein.
If you ate 1,000 calories a day total.If all of it was protein that's 250g of protein, more than what most people eat. You think you'll grow like a weed?
On the other hand, if you eat 5,000 calories of carbs, you think it will not not do anything?
I eat 250-300g of protein a day.. u mirin?0 -
1G per 1 pound of LBM is usually enough
this is usually your best bet
thats 1 gram per 1 pound of lean body mass0 -
I wondered about this and looked at it from a runner's perspective.
After reading perhaps a dozen links from Google, I found two categories of answers - folks who were selling protein supplements recommended >= 1.2 gm/kg of body mass whereas academics and the people who were not openly affiliated with a commercial venture varied from 0.8 gm/kg to 1.2 gm/kg.
If I've had a hard workout (run) or if my HRV (Google is your friend) is down, I'll go with 1.2. Other than that, I generally look to hit 1 gm/kg.0 -
been taking 200 to 300 grams of protein per day for 3 years now and can't donate a kidney because of some micro-albumin test.
silly doctors.0 -
in order to gain mass you need protein, but what is too much? i've heard lots of different opinions
To gain mass you need "energy" not so much protein.
If you ate 1,000 calories a day total.If all of it was protein that's 250g of protein, more than what most people eat. You think you'll grow like a weed?
On the other hand, if you eat 5,000 calories of carbs, you think it will not not do anything?
I eat 250-300g of protein a day.. u mirin?
I used to eat 500 a day... didn't do anything... that's my point.
but what did your carb and sugar intake look like? I've been at 200g+ intake daily for almost a year now, strength and muscle mass has increased significantly. I'm not saying your point isn't valid at all, I'm just pointing out that under the right conditions and training, a higher protein intake in proper intervals can definitely help in gaining and maintaining muscle mass.0 -
1G per 1 pound of LBM is usually enough
this is usually your best bet
thats 1 gram per 1 pound of lean body mass
I maintained LBM eating half that...
What are your lifts at?0 -
like what everyone said with 1g per lb
excess protein is also synthesized for other functions within the body. Nothing is every truly wasted
look up gluconeogenesis and denovo lipogenesis0 -
THEN YOU DIDNT MAINTAIN LBM!1G per 1 pound of LBM is usually enough
this is usually your best bet
thats 1 gram per 1 pound of lean body mass
I maintained LBM eating half that...
What are your lifts at?
I haven't lifted in like 6 months due to health issues. I am a lot better now, so I am planning to go tomorrow to the gym.
So i have no idea. Due to my issues i have lost a lot of LBM.
regardless of your health issues your experience is invalid0 -
THEN YOU DIDNT MAINTAIN LBM!1G per 1 pound of LBM is usually enough
this is usually your best bet
thats 1 gram per 1 pound of lean body mass
I maintained LBM eating half that...
What are your lifts at?
I haven't lifted in like 6 months due to health issues. I am a lot better now, so I am planning to go tomorrow to the gym.
So i have no idea. Due to my issues i have lost a lot of LBM.
regardless of your health issues your experience is invalid
I did maintain it when i was lifting.
I got sick and was eating like 300-500 calories a day if i was lucky... That was the loss of LBM.
and to be honest, looking at your pictures. The higher BF% you are at the less protein is actually needed to maintain lean body mass.
Fuel availabilty is a factor on top of protein intake on where the energy is pulled from0 -
like what everyone said with 1g per lb
excess protein is also synthesized for other functions within the body. Nothing is every truly wasted
look up gluconeogenesis and denovo lipogenesis
DNL is highly inefficient process if it even occurs. Exercise is mostly glucose dependent not protein dependent. It takes quick energy to be able to lift and recover. Gluconeogenesis would take to long. Just go directly to the source and eat the carbs...
I am talking about what happens to excess protein. either way it isnt wasted and that was my point.0 -
like what everyone said with 1g per lb
excess protein is also synthesized for other functions within the body. Nothing is every truly wasted
look up gluconeogenesis and denovo lipogenesis
DNL is highly inefficient process if it even occurs. Exercise is mostly glucose dependent not protein dependent. It takes quick energy to be able to lift and recover. Gluconeogenesis would take to long. Just go directly to the source and eat the carbs...
Ummm, DNL is certainly what happens when dietary carbohydrates exceed total energy expenditure. VLDL synthesis in the liver is actually rather efficient. Or are you talking about something else?0 -
THEN YOU DIDNT MAINTAIN LBM!1G per 1 pound of LBM is usually enough
this is usually your best bet
thats 1 gram per 1 pound of lean body mass
I maintained LBM eating half that...
What are your lifts at?
I haven't lifted in like 6 months due to health issues. I am a lot better now, so I am planning to go tomorrow to the gym.
So i have no idea. Due to my issues i have lost a lot of LBM.
regardless of your health issues your experience is invalid
I did maintain it when i was lifting.
I got sick and was eating like 300-500 calories a day if i was lucky... That was the loss of LBM.
and to be honest, looking at your pictures. The higher BF% you are at the less protein is actually needed to maintain lean body mass.
Fuel availabilty is a factor on top of protein intake on where the energy is pulled from
I do agree with you to some extent. We also have to take in to consideration protein intake vs cutting and and bulking... Plus different body fat % (as you mentioned).
The leaner you are the more protein you need I'll give you that, also when you're cutting you need more protein(supposedly). I do agree with that, but the question is "how much?" the common recommendations are to high IMO. Nothing wrong with them, they work, I rather be eating something else then trying to "get my macros" in.
In your opinion of what?
Based off of what research? my comments are listed off of the big studies0 -
Lyle Mcdonald is not exactly a great reference, though he is often referenced for some reason. He knows his sh**, but someone who only thinks about things without being able to apply them to any real result is only right in theory.
That's pretty funny considering he wrote "the protein book". I'd listen to the big guys at the gym though :laugh:
To answer the OP, as low as 1.2g/kg can retain LBM when maintaining weight. When cutting, it is recommended to increase to closer to 2g/kg or possibly a bit more. (BF% and size of deficit matter) When bulking, studies show that up to 2g/kg is sufficient. IMO this should ideally be spread out over a few meals per day. (It is unlikely that one meal per day is optimal for maximum protein synthesis but also not required to have MANY however you can if you wish)0 -
your experience is also at a weight where a normal person isnt at. You never went on a true bulk.
That's the point, it doesn't matter what studies say, it matters what the reality of the situation is. I am speaking from "experience" not from reading studies. The way science works, someone makes a claim based on their research, you mimick what they did and see if you get the same results. I did the opposite of what they did and still got the same results they get. Which means there is flaws in their method.
If you "REALLY" want to see the studies that support my claim, i'll post them tomorrow, they're on another forum...
I am not trying to be mean but
1. You are overweight
2. Your experience is still very limited because you been overweight for so long
3. your experience is still at the level of a novice.
4. you do not have a reputation/credentials to being able to even make educated claims
You were already bashing DNL and GNG when it was far beyond the point. If stores are full what is going to happen to the extra energy? you certainly dont **** it out. Your statements have been very wrong0 -
Lyle Mcdonald is not exactly a great reference, though he is often referenced for some reason. He knows his sh**, but someone who only thinks about things without being able to apply them to any real result is only right in theory.
That's pretty funny considering he wrote "the protein book". I'd listen to the big guys at the gym though :laugh:
To answer the OP, as low as 1.2g/kg can retain LBM when maintaining weight. When cutting, it is recommended to increase to closer to 2g/kg or possibly a bit more. (BF% and size of deficit matter) When bulking, studies show that up to 2g/kg is sufficient. IMO this should ideally be spread out over a few meals per day. (It is unlikely that one meal per day is optimal for maximum protein synthesis but also not required to have MANY however you can if you wish)
Thank you, the only sane person in the room.0 -
I like the part in bold, many people on MFP, make recommendations based on "research" with out having any real experience in the subject. They blindly follow some paper because it's backed by "science" with out experience they have no idea how true the claims even are in the first place.
What's your experience?0 -
you do not need protein to gain mass...thats NOT the missing piece!0
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Lyle Mcdonald is not exactly a great reference
This is hilarious.0 -
like what everyone said with 1g per lb
excess protein is also synthesized for other functions within the body. Nothing is every truly wasted
look up gluconeogenesis and denovo lipogenesis
DNL is highly inefficient process if it even occurs. Exercise is mostly glucose dependent not protein dependent. It takes quick energy to be able to lift and recover. Gluconeogenesis would take to long. Just go directly to the source and eat the carbs...
I am talking about what happens to excess protein. either way it isnt wasted and that was my point.
True, but not sure about this logic. You're saying excess protein isnt wasted via gluconeogenesis. Yes, ketones can be used for energy much like sugar. Though, it's not optima,l as sugars (carbs) are the preferred and immediate source of energy your body "wants" to use (unless you force full blown keto).
The point here is, why eat excess protein for energy requirements via a very expensive and tedious conversion process vs just eating carbs, which can be used to fill glycogen stores 5 times faster? (thereby speeding recovery and work output)...
I really don't understand the whole low carb thing. I maintain sub 10% bodyfat eating 300g of carbs per day. You can get lean eating carbs...not a problem.0 -
like what everyone said with 1g per lb
excess protein is also synthesized for other functions within the body. Nothing is every truly wasted
look up gluconeogenesis and denovo lipogenesis
DNL is highly inefficient process if it even occurs. Exercise is mostly glucose dependent not protein dependent. It takes quick energy to be able to lift and recover. Gluconeogenesis would take to long. Just go directly to the source and eat the carbs...
I am talking about what happens to excess protein. either way it isnt wasted and that was my point.
True, but not sure about this logic. You're saying excess protein isnt wasted via gluconeogenesis. Yes, ketones can be used for energy much like sugar. Though, it's not optima,l as sugars (carbs) are the preferred and immediate source of energy your body "wants" to use (unless you force full blown keto).
The point here is, why eat excess protein for energy requirements via a very expensive and tedious conversion process vs just eating carbs, which can be used to fill glycogen stores 5 times faster? (thereby speeding recovery and work output)...
I really don't understand the whole low carb thing. I maintain sub 10% bodyfat eating 300g of carbs per day. You can get lean eating carbs...not a problem.
I think his point was that the protein goes somewhere and does something rather than being excreted without serving any function whatsoever (that's how I would define wasted in this context).
As to why you would consume protein in excess of need, we can't conclusively say under all contexts (considering training volume, genetics, leanness, age, overall diet, daily fluctuations in energy/nutrient needs/etc) exactly how much protein we need. Even if we had double the current amount of available research we probably still couldn't say this explicitly.
For people who want to optimize everything from a theoretical standpoint then there's merit in erring on the side of "slightly more" protein provided that it's not pushing out other nutrients.0 -
I think his point was that the protein goes somewhere and does something rather than being excreted without serving any function whatsoever (that's how I would define wasted in this context).
As to why you would consume protein in excess of need, we can't conclusively say under all contexts (considering training volume, genetics, leanness, age, overall diet, daily fluctuations in energy/nutrient needs/etc) exactly how much protein we need. Even if we had double the current amount of available research we probably still couldn't say this explicitly.
For people who want to optimize everything from a theoretical standpoint then there's merit in erring on the side of "slightly more" protein provided that it's not pushing out other nutrients.
To look at it from a broscience perspective, how many truly strong people got that way on a low protein diet? I don't know of any and google hasn't yielded much so if anyone knows of some data points I'd be interested to know.0 -
Exactly. We eat above our theoretical requirements to dot our i's and cross our t's. No argument there. My point is "waste" can be a relative term I guess. If you are maxed out on muscular glycogen in the absence of a need for recovery, any excess protein will be quite literally wasted. If you are in a negative nitrogen balance, excess protein may required.
I don't really deal in theoretical optimizations. I think any experienced athlete knows that success is a balancing game between knowing own's own body and how it partitions nutrients, and being educated on basic nutritional fundamentals. Beyond that, there's no reason to go on pubmed and hyperlink stuff that probably doesnt apply to the population here...these people serve to confuse more than help, imo.0 -
Lyle Mcdonald is not exactly a great reference
This is hilarious.
I actually laughed out loud at the original statement.
However I do agree that bodybuilding is mostly personal experience and "bro science." Literally every big guy I've met said they had to find out what works for them, and they always have parts of their training/nutrition that are laughably ridiculous when admitted out loud. You can and must get ideas from external sources but they are only ideas, you've got to try it and keep notes and experience it.0 -
Lyle Mcdonald is not exactly a great reference
This is hilarious.
I actually laughed out loud at the original statement.
However I do agree that bodybuilding is mostly personal experience and "bro science." Literally every big guy I've met said they had to find out what works for them, and they always have parts of their training/nutrition that are laughably ridiculous when admitted out loud. You can and must get ideas from external sources but they are only ideas, you've got to try it and keep notes and experience it.
At the risk of thread derailment, Keifer has a lot of generally unkind things to say about Lyle Mcdonald, not the least of which is that he neglects to cite source references in many cases. Now I'm not saying Keifer's right, and I have my own issues with some of his suggested tactics, but he did make me stop blindly accepting Lyle's stuff as gospel and rethink some of my positions. Overall I think that ended up being for the best as it forced me to reassess my (admittedly amateur) beliefs and understanding regarding nutrition and fitness. We should all do that from time to time.
Starting out by saying he's a crap reference I do disagree with though.0 -
Lyle Mcdonald is not exactly a great reference, though he is often referenced for some reason. He knows his sh**, but someone who only thinks about things without being able to apply them to any real result is only right in theory.
That's pretty funny considering he wrote "the protein book". I'd listen to the big guys at the gym though :laugh:
To answer the OP, as low as 1.2g/kg can retain LBM when maintaining weight. When cutting, it is recommended to increase to closer to 2g/kg or possibly a bit more. (BF% and size of deficit matter) When bulking, studies show that up to 2g/kg is sufficient. IMO this should ideally be spread out over a few meals per day. (It is unlikely that one meal per day is optimal for maximum protein synthesis but also not required to have MANY however you can if you wish)
Thank you, the only sane person in the room.
only?0 -
At the risk of thread derailment, Keifer has a lot of generally unkind things to say about Lyle Mcdonald, not the least of which is that he neglects to cite source references in many cases. Now I'm not saying Keifer's right, and I have my own issues with some of his suggested tactics, but he did make me stop blindly accepting Lyle's stuff as gospel and rethink some of my positions. Overall I think that ended up being for the best as it forced me to reassess my (admittedly amateur) beliefs and understanding regarding nutrition and fitness. We should all do that from time to time.
Starting out by saying he's a crap reference I do disagree with though.
Everyone has unkind things to say about Lyle. He's an *kitten* and seems to revel in this online persona however he is nearly always exactly right. Yet still that doesn't make him an authority on bodybuilding nutrition.
I totally agree that all sources should be questioned and the sad reality is that the majority of people take a zealous approach to "knowledge" rather than, to paraphrase, taking what is useful and discarding what is not. It is literally psychologically painful to read widely, especially views which contradict your own currently held beliefs, but this is pretty much the basis of being a well-rounded human being.0 -
At the risk of thread derailment, Keifer has a lot of generally unkind things to say about Lyle Mcdonald, not the least of which is that he neglects to cite source references in many cases. Now I'm not saying Keifer's right, and I have my own issues with some of his suggested tactics, but he did make me stop blindly accepting Lyle's stuff as gospel and rethink some of my positions. Overall I think that ended up being for the best as it forced me to reassess my (admittedly amateur) beliefs and understanding regarding nutrition and fitness. We should all do that from time to time.
Starting out by saying he's a crap reference I do disagree with though.
Everyone has unkind things to say about Lyle. He's an *kitten* and seems to revel in this online persona however he is nearly always exactly right. Yet still that doesn't make him an authority on bodybuilding nutrition.
I totally agree that all sources should be questioned and the sad reality is that the majority of people take a zealous approach to "knowledge" rather than, to paraphrase, taking what is useful and discarding what is not. It is literally psychologically painful to read widely, especially views which contradict your own currently held beliefs, but this is pretty much the basis of being a well-rounded human being.
If you're going to put it like that...you need to post more
Slacker
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Everyone has unkind things to say about Lyle. He's an *kitten* and seems to revel in this online persona however he is nearly always exactly right. Yet still that doesn't make him an authority on bodybuilding nutrition.
I totally agree that all sources should be questioned and the sad reality is that the majority of people take a zealous approach to "knowledge" rather than, to paraphrase, taking what is useful and discarding what is not. It is literally psychologically painful to read widely, especially views which contradict your own currently held beliefs, but this is pretty much the basis of being a well-rounded human being.
Yeah, yeah, well what about....
Errr wait....
Well, the thing is....
Wait....
Yeah, I got nothing. Nice post.0
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