what's too much protein when bulking?
Replies
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I can't believe I really did just sit here and read all that, lol. Thanks for the input, i'm shooting for 1-1.5g/bw daily.0
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I can't believe I really did just sit here and read all that, lol. Thanks for the input, i'm shooting for 1-1.5g/bw daily.
That's not a bad goal. Try it and see if it works. If it doesn't, adjust.0 -
I can't believe I really did just sit here and read all that, lol. Thanks for the input, i'm shooting for 1-1.5g/bw daily.
Hope you are able to stick with it being new to this and all. Just don't want to get tired of protein intake and want to quit. Has happened to a lot of people, they feel they have to follow certain protocols and can't stick with them and they get upset and just quit... good luck.
ETA: I just read it said per lbs of BW. You think that's a good formula? If you weighed 400lbs you would consume 600g of protein? not a good formula, it should be calculated based on LBM.
Why? High protein diets aren't hard.0 -
So let go by those sources.... Someone has already done the summary.
http://mennohenselmans.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/
With a 0.82 g/lb bodyweight that comes up to about ..... 1 g/lb of LBM.
Edit: You gained 1 lb of LBM after a year of lifting? Newbie gains or not - that isn't what I'm looking for.
I was in a calorie deficit the entire time. That's about the time i lost my first 100lbs. I was lifting through 90% of it. I wouldn't expect much of a gain on LBM.
Are you familiar with the work by Dr.Barry Sears(Biochemist)? He's the creator of the zone diet, the popular 40/30/30 was created by him.
He has produced 25 olympic gold medalist... His highest recommendations for protein?
Sedentary - multiply lbs of lean body mass by .5
Light activity (e.g. walking) - multiply by .6
Moderate (30 minutes of vigorous activity 3 days per week) - .7
Active (1 hour per day 5 days per week) - .8
Very Active (10 hours of vigorous activity per week - .9
Athlete - multiply by 1.0
Yes, more than heard of him. Let's see.
A 40:30:30 diet, if you are not overly restricting, guarantees a protein consumption well above 0.7 g / lb of LBM.
So is he right or wrong?
How many grams would that be for 2100 calories (my cut)? Might it be 158g? Why yes.
And for me, that translates to 1.02 g/lb of LBM.
Thanks, Dr Sears. (And the zone "anti-immflamatory" thing is bull pluck)
you did it backwards. You don't determine your calories first. His method is you determine your protein intake first, and make your calories around that. I have no idea what my LBM is... for example if i was still at 200lbs of LBM, athlete(1g of protein per LBM for simple math)
1. Calculate protein calories
200g protein ( 4 calories/1g protein) = 800 calories protein
2. Calculate total calories
800 calories(protein) is 30% of something.
800/.30 = ~2,666 calories total.
2. Calculate carb calories
We know that we are going to eat 40% of total calories.
2,666 * .40 = 1,066 calories(calories for carbs)
2. Calculate fat calories
It should be same amount of calories as protein since both are 30%. Just to verify we should still calculate it to make sure we did things right, fat is 30% of total calories.
2.666 * .30 = 799.8 calories (some precision was lost due to sig figs) but close enough. So we did things right.
Doing it this way, either way my protein is still the same 800 calories or 200g.
His diet is automatically a reduced calorie diet, I mean for me... I was calculated at 1,700 calories a day weighing in around 290-300lbs with an LBM of around 200lbs or so.
A lot of people do it wrong(the 40/30/30) thing. Well it was originally created by the zone but people don't follow it using his protocol, they just randomly do 40/30/30 based off their calculated deficit.
I'm sorry, a diet that suggests 1700 calories for a man weighing 300 pounds with 200lbs of LBM is well below estimated BMR (sterling pasmore equation is easy). Why would you follow that?
But let's do it your way.
Me: Active - .7g (according to you). My LBM of 150 lbs = 105 g x 4 cal/g = 420 cals from protein
420/0.30 = 1400 calories. That is what you are suggesting I should do?
I don't think that makes any sense. I eat 2100+50% of cardio to lose.0 -
If you where following the zone than yes. I am sure you're well aware of the research on lower calorie diets.
The real question to ask yourself, "why do you believe it's wrong to do it?"
I trust Sears judgment, he claims the olympic athletes who he trained consumed no more than 2,500 calories. As you know these people are elite athletes doing intensive training sessions. Heybales(i think you know him) has also done the zone, he mentioned he was surprised how much more he could do with less calories.
Not sure if you read the anti-aging zone as well, talks a lot about free radical production(produced on higher calorie diet) and aging, calorie restriction(i know you know the benefits), elevated insulin production and how it shortens life span(too many carbs or too many calories). A good example is diabetics as you know they have insulin related issues and have a shorter life span.
Here is a list to all his references.
http://www.drsears.com/WhatistheZone/ZoneValidationStudies/tabid/423/Default.aspx
Given that his site states that an athelete may burn 3000-4000 cals a day I'm going to say that I do not buy a max/average of 2500 for elite atheletes.
Eating at those low levels would give me an eating disorder. No thanks.0 -
I can't believe I really did just sit here and read all that, lol. Thanks for the input, i'm shooting for 1-1.5g/bw daily.
Hope you are able to stick with it being new to this and all. Just don't want to get tired of protein intake and want to quit. Has happened to a lot of people, they feel they have to follow certain protocols and can't stick with them and they get upset and just quit... good luck.
ETA: I just read it said per lbs of BW. You think that's a good formula? If you weighed 400lbs you would consume 600g of protein? not a good formula, it should be calculated based on LBM.
Why? High protein diets aren't hard.
If you have food addictions as most over weight people do, it doesn't end well. it's too much of a big change assuming he's just starting out. That's my concern, jumping in to something that is a compete 180.
Umm, he has zero to go and he is bulking. So your assumptions are way off.0 -
Lacto-ovo vegeterians
Lacto-ovo vegeterians(I’ll just call them veggie’s for short) Consume about 79g of protein and about 450 calories less than non-vegetarians. Non veggie’s consume about 138g of protein on a daily basis. Both groups in this study gained between 2-5lbs of LBM. The point of this study is to show once you meet the minimum requirements you don’t need more protein. Remember 5lbs of LBM is what can be gained with a good resistance plan. In this study both groups came close to average results, even the veggies who ate very low amounts of protein.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14600563
They put vegetarians on creatine and they showed a gain in LBM? No *kitten*! What am I missing here? Of course they gained LBM.0 -
As I mentioned above, i have many studies that support my claim. Here is part of a topic i wrote with references
Those references were disputed heavily in the thread where you posted it.
This thread?
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/787083-muscle-growth-protein-recommendations-highly-over-rated0 -
So let go by those sources.... Someone has already done the summary.
http://mennohenselmans.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/
With a 0.82 g/lb bodyweight that comes up to about ..... 1 g/lb of LBM.
Edit: You gained 1 lb of LBM after a year of lifting? Newbie gains or not - that isn't what I'm looking for.
I was in a calorie deficit the entire time. That's about the time i lost my first 100lbs. I was lifting through 90% of it. I wouldn't expect much of a gain on LBM.
Are you familiar with the work by Dr.Barry Sears(Biochemist)? He's the creator of the zone diet, the popular 40/30/30 was created by him.
He has produced 25 olympic gold medalist... His highest recommendations for protein?
Sedentary - multiply lbs of lean body mass by .5
Light activity (e.g. walking) - multiply by .6
Moderate (30 minutes of vigorous activity 3 days per week) - .7
Active (1 hour per day 5 days per week) - .8
Very Active (10 hours of vigorous activity per week - .9
Athlete - multiply by 1.0
what does an olympian have anything to do with protein reccomendations?
I wouldnt take protein reccomendations from ronnie coleman
why would I take protein reccomendations from an endurance athlete?
You can gain LBM if you are that overweight. Its on the basis of fuel availability.
You were morbidly obese and what you could experience doesnt apply to a normal person.
Edit:STUDIES>EXPERIENCE.
I have never pulled this out but before you start talking about experience as a weapon and to eliminate studies.
GET ON MY LEVEL IF YOU WANT TO USE EXPERIENCE OVER STUDIES, AS LEAN AS ME AND LIFT AS MUCH AS ME!0 -
Actually you probably could take protein recommendations from Ronnie Coleman. Bodybuilders don't just follow **** blindly you know, there's a fair bit of research on the subject or rather if you want to do legit research from an athlete, I'd suggest reading any of the large amount of information put out by Dr. Layne Norton who is a natural professional bodybuilder and one of the worlds foremost authorities on protein synthesis.0
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Actually you probably could take protein recommendations from Ronnie Coleman. Bodybuilders don't just follow **** blindly you know, there's a fair bit of research on the subject or rather if you want to do legit research from an athlete, I'd suggest reading any of the large amount of information put out by Dr. Layne Norton who is a natural professional bodybuilder and one of the worlds foremost authorities on protein synthesis.
The protein requirement of a steroid enhanced bodybuilder is much greater than someone who is not.0 -
1g to 1.5 g per pound of body weight.. the body can only absorb 40 g at a time..protein is the most important along with amino acids to build muscle.0
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You need to have 1g of protein per lb of body weight per day. Try not to have more than 40g-50g in a sitting, its the most your body can absorb. If you're very overweight then you can use your BMI instead for protein intake.0
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Bump0
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NOOOOOOOO.... don't bump this thread!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL!0
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1g to 1.5 g per pound of body weight.. the body can only absorb 40 g at a time..protein is the most important along with amino acids to build muscle.
no....0 -
olympic athlete you referred to was an endurance one.So let go by those sources.... Someone has already done the summary.
http://mennohenselmans.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/
With a 0.82 g/lb bodyweight that comes up to about ..... 1 g/lb of LBM.
Edit: You gained 1 lb of LBM after a year of lifting? Newbie gains or not - that isn't what I'm looking for.
I was in a calorie deficit the entire time. That's about the time i lost my first 100lbs. I was lifting through 90% of it. I wouldn't expect much of a gain on LBM.
Are you familiar with the work by Dr.Barry Sears(Biochemist)? He's the creator of the zone diet, the popular 40/30/30 was created by him.
He has produced 25 olympic gold medalist... His highest recommendations for protein?
Sedentary - multiply lbs of lean body mass by .5
Light activity (e.g. walking) - multiply by .6
Moderate (30 minutes of vigorous activity 3 days per week) - .7
Active (1 hour per day 5 days per week) - .8
Very Active (10 hours of vigorous activity per week - .9
Athlete - multiply by 1.0
what does an olympian have anything to do with protein reccomendations?
I wouldnt take protein reccomendations from ronnie coleman
why would I take protein reccomendations from an endurance athlete?
You can gain LBM if you are that overweight. Its on the basis of fuel availability.
You were morbidly obese and what you could experience doesnt apply to a normal person.
Edit:STUDIES>EXPERIENCE.
I have never pulled this out but before you start talking about experience as a weapon and to eliminate studies.
GET ON MY LEVEL IF YOU WANT TO USE EXPERIENCE OVER STUDIES, AS LEAN AS ME AND LIFT AS MUCH AS ME!
No without experience there would be no studies.
About the protein requirement, my point is that olympic athletes probably need more protein than anyone else. Yet they still did not consume the ridiculous amounts recommended in this topic.
They run off of different energy levels than a strength one.0 -
Protein builds muscle remember, it's all about protein -cough cough- It's physically impossible for them to build muscle mass according to you guys because they didn't have enough protein to do so.
Lacto-ovo vegeterians
Lacto-ovo vegeterians(I’ll just call them veggie’s for short) Consume about 79g of protein and about 450 calories less than non-vegetarians. Non veggie’s consume about 138g of protein on a daily basis. Both groups in this study gained between 2-5lbs of LBM. The point of this study is to show once you meet the minimum requirements you don’t need more protein. Remember 5lbs of LBM is what can be gained with a good resistance plan. In this study both groups came close to average results, even the veggies who ate very low amounts of protein.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14600563
They put vegetarians on creatine and they showed a gain in LBM? No *kitten*! What am I missing here? Of course they gained LBM.
Pu..ffs....LBM =/= mucle.0 -
LBM =/= skeletal muscle.0
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As I mentioned above, i have many studies that support my claim. Here is part of a topic i wrote with references
Those references were disputed heavily in the thread where you posted it.
This thread?
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/787083-muscle-growth-protein-recommendations-highly-over-rated
Contact olivia, tell her to bring back the post where you and sidesteel both criticized the topic but didn't get far because i debunked everything both you said..
I'm LOLing.0 -
As I mentioned above, i have many studies that support my claim. Here is part of a topic i wrote with references
Those references were disputed heavily in the thread where you posted it.
This thread?
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/787083-muscle-growth-protein-recommendations-highly-over-rated
Contact olivia, tell her to bring back the post where you and sidesteel both criticized the topic but didn't get far because i debunked everything both you said..
OMG,,,are your delusional?.....you are too funny. You should start a new career as a stand up.0 -
Protein builds muscle remember, it's all about protein -cough cough- It's physically impossible for them to build muscle mass according to you guys because they didn't have enough protein to do so.
Lacto-ovo vegeterians
Lacto-ovo vegeterians(I’ll just call them veggie’s for short) Consume about 79g of protein and about 450 calories less than non-vegetarians. Non veggie’s consume about 138g of protein on a daily basis. Both groups in this study gained between 2-5lbs of LBM. The point of this study is to show once you meet the minimum requirements you don’t need more protein. Remember 5lbs of LBM is what can be gained with a good resistance plan. In this study both groups came close to average results, even the veggies who ate very low amounts of protein.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14600563
They put vegetarians on creatine and they showed a gain in LBM? No *kitten*! What am I missing here? Of course they gained LBM.
you do realize what protein quality is? we say protein to not overcomplicate things but there are certain amino acids that must be ingested to have optimal muscle building.0 -
LBM =/= skeletal muscle.
forgot about that lol0 -
That is far from the point
ok, well what if all are full?like what everyone said with 1g per lb
excess protein is also synthesized for other functions within the body. Nothing is every truly wasted
look up gluconeogenesis and denovo lipogenesis
DNL is highly inefficient process if it even occurs. Exercise is mostly glucose dependent not protein dependent. It takes quick energy to be able to lift and recover. Gluconeogenesis would take to long. Just go directly to the source and eat the carbs...
Ummm, DNL is certainly what happens when dietary carbohydrates exceed total energy expenditure. VLDL synthesis in the liver is actually rather efficient. Or are you talking about something else?
I was talking about gluconeogenesis being highly ineffective. About DNL, I remember reading a study saying that our ability to store carbs is greater than what we think. Also that DNL doesn't happen in humans. I just read an abstract right now to refresh my memory. It's saying DNL does exist in humans from a logical stand point(thinking about it in a common sense way) it has to exist.
Of course your body stores carbs preferably, but if protein cannot be stored, and carbs cannot be stored, the energy is not going to magically disappear.
You are not interpreting the study properly
I remember now(you jogged my memory). the study was pretty much saying that protein gets converted to glucose as you know, and carbs obviously get converted to glucose and both are stored as glycogen, not converted to fat. What happens is we limit the fat oxidation. It mentioned how we can hold a lot more glycogen than previously thought.
That is my point
The question is, "how much glycogen do you need for it to be full?
Vary from person to person, but that doesnt matter, DNL will still occur.
You still havent respodned to my comments about you stating studies/articles that you linked and reccomended .82 when you were trying to use them to justify your .5g
on top of the fact you are trying justify protein intake from an obese individual and apply it to a normal sized person0 -
That is far from the point
ok, well what if all are full?like what everyone said with 1g per lb
excess protein is also synthesized for other functions within the body. Nothing is every truly wasted
look up gluconeogenesis and denovo lipogenesis
DNL is highly inefficient process if it even occurs. Exercise is mostly glucose dependent not protein dependent. It takes quick energy to be able to lift and recover. Gluconeogenesis would take to long. Just go directly to the source and eat the carbs...
Ummm, DNL is certainly what happens when dietary carbohydrates exceed total energy expenditure. VLDL synthesis in the liver is actually rather efficient. Or are you talking about something else?
I was talking about gluconeogenesis being highly ineffective. About DNL, I remember reading a study saying that our ability to store carbs is greater than what we think. Also that DNL doesn't happen in humans. I just read an abstract right now to refresh my memory. It's saying DNL does exist in humans from a logical stand point(thinking about it in a common sense way) it has to exist.
Of course your body stores carbs preferably, but if protein cannot be stored, and carbs cannot be stored, the energy is not going to magically disappear.
You are not interpreting the study properly
I remember now(you jogged my memory). the study was pretty much saying that protein gets converted to glucose as you know, and carbs obviously get converted to glucose and both are stored as glycogen, not converted to fat. What happens is we limit the fat oxidation. It mentioned how we can hold a lot more glycogen than previously thought.
That is my point
The question is, "how much glycogen do you need for it to be full?
Vary from person to person, but that doesnt matter, DNL will still occur.
You still havent respodned to my comments about you stating studies/articles that you linked and reccomended .82 when you were trying to use them to justify your .5g
on top of the fact you are trying justify protein intake from an obese individual and apply it to a normal sized person
You are trying to use context. Apparently that's not welcome in this discussion.0 -
In...
...to catch up on three pages.
As for "inefficient processes", in the context of weight loss, why would this be a bad thing? Wouldn't inefficient utilization actually have a beneficial impact? And on maintenance/gain, what is the issue?0 -
Protein builds muscle remember, it's all about protein -cough cough- It's physically impossible for them to build muscle mass according to you guys because they didn't have enough protein to do so.
Lacto-ovo vegeterians
Lacto-ovo vegeterians(I’ll just call them veggie’s for short) Consume about 79g of protein and about 450 calories less than non-vegetarians. Non veggie’s consume about 138g of protein on a daily basis. Both groups in this study gained between 2-5lbs of LBM. The point of this study is to show once you meet the minimum requirements you don’t need more protein. Remember 5lbs of LBM is what can be gained with a good resistance plan. In this study both groups came close to average results, even the veggies who ate very low amounts of protein.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14600563
They put vegetarians on creatine and they showed a gain in LBM? No *kitten*! What am I missing here? Of course they gained LBM.
Pu..ffs....LBM =/= mucle.
I know it's not that's what i have been saying... all this time... We already been through all this. You already know my point of view, i know yours. that simple.
PU....I was addressing the study re LBM. You really need to try to apply relevance to your discussion.0 -
That is far from the point
ok, well what if all are full?like what everyone said with 1g per lb
excess protein is also synthesized for other functions within the body. Nothing is every truly wasted
look up gluconeogenesis and denovo lipogenesis
DNL is highly inefficient process if it even occurs. Exercise is mostly glucose dependent not protein dependent. It takes quick energy to be able to lift and recover. Gluconeogenesis would take to long. Just go directly to the source and eat the carbs...
Ummm, DNL is certainly what happens when dietary carbohydrates exceed total energy expenditure. VLDL synthesis in the liver is actually rather efficient. Or are you talking about something else?
I was talking about gluconeogenesis being highly ineffective. About DNL, I remember reading a study saying that our ability to store carbs is greater than what we think. Also that DNL doesn't happen in humans. I just read an abstract right now to refresh my memory. It's saying DNL does exist in humans from a logical stand point(thinking about it in a common sense way) it has to exist.
Of course your body stores carbs preferably, but if protein cannot be stored, and carbs cannot be stored, the energy is not going to magically disappear.
You are not interpreting the study properly
I remember now(you jogged my memory). the study was pretty much saying that protein gets converted to glucose as you know, and carbs obviously get converted to glucose and both are stored as glycogen, not converted to fat. What happens is we limit the fat oxidation. It mentioned how we can hold a lot more glycogen than previously thought.
That is my point
The question is, "how much glycogen do you need for it to be full?
Vary from person to person, but that doesnt matter, DNL will still occur.
You still havent respodned to my comments about you stating studies/articles that you linked and reccomended .82 when you were trying to use them to justify your .5g
on top of the fact you are trying justify protein intake from an obese individual and apply it to a normal sized person
I missed your question, and i don't understand if you're asking it here... so ask again?
go look for it in the thread0 -
go look for it in the thread
I did, couldn't find it.
you must have been pretty bad at hide and seek if you cant find it.0 -
That's a myth that will never die. Think about it. A 250 LB bodybuilder can only absorb as much protein as a 130 LB female at one meal.I have also been told that most people can't absorb much more than 30 grams of protein at a time. So the point would be that if you are taking in anymore than that at a time it will pass through. Makes you take a more balanced approach instead of trying to do it all at once.
It isn't your weight that decides how much of things you can absorb. It's our digestive system. I am certified nutritionist (for animals... lol) but same idea, your kidneys/liver/pancreas/large intestine can only break down and absorb a certain amount of each thing. Your weight will not influence this. You also can't store it like a camel stores water in its hump, so it will be passed out of your system and wasted. Also, our bodies don't have a good way of getting rid of protein so it is turned into ammonia and passed through the excretory system (sweat) If you are eating too much your sweat will start to smell of ammonia. If you don't sweat your body will build up and will begin lysing calcium from your bones, and you will have a hard time with carbohydrates... which you need to fuel your workouts.
It can also cause kidney stones... this one I learned the hard way ><
Anyway, that is not a myth.0
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