Meat eater, vegetarian or vegan?? Which are you?

Preaching doesn't do anything but put people off.

If you don't like preaching, don't go to church. This is a thread about dietary choices, and if you don't want to discuss them, you're in the wrong place.

You are the one who is preaching here. My dietary choices are not your business but you seem to think it is. Not everything is about you, and you can't control what other people do with their lives.

Again, if your dietary choices are not my business, then why the Hell are you on a public forum talking about them?

There are other people in this thread besides you. This is not a thread about judging what others do with their lives. It's a freaking question. Are you a troll or just a jerk?
We are having a discussion. You seem to think it's an invitation to tell other people what they should and should not do. This is not a socially normal thing to do and will not earn you any respect.

Exactly what kind of discussion about diets doesn't involve talking about the relative merits of different diets? And who are you to call people jerks? Ever do any research on diets? Or on anything?

Talking and attempting to control what people do are two very different things. You might want to practice a bit of diplomacy.
By the way, you must burn a lot of calories jumping to conclusions.

I am mainly a vegetarian myself, and have a Master's degree in biology.

Cool. I have three degrees, none in biology, but I have had a lot of Bio courses.

Trying to make myslef love vegetables and gradually getting there

Good for you!

For me it's unnatural to eat meat. We don't have the teeth or digestive system of a carnivore.

Quite right. Physiologically we are herbivores. Here is an article by the Editor of the American Journal of Cardiology (I know, another pseudo scientific rag) :


William C. Roberts MD has five decades of experience in the field of cardiology, written over 1300 scientific publications, a dozen cardiology textbooks, and has been editor in chief of the American Journal of Cardiology for a quarter of a century. He is arguably the most highly regarded cardiologist in the world today.

In his 2008 editorial "The Cause of Atherosclerosis", published in the peer reviewed journal Nutrition in Clinical Practice, Roberts states that there is a single, sole cause to heart disease: cholesterol. If your total cholesterol is below 150 and LDL is below 70, you are essentially heart attack proof. What is the cause of high cholesterol? Saturated fat and animal products:

Atherosclerosis is easily produced in nonhuman
herbivores (eg, rabbits, monkeys) by feeding them
a high cholesterol (eg, egg yolks) or high saturated
fat (eg, animal fat) diet… And atherosclerosis was not produced in a
minority of rats fed these diets, it was produced in
100% of the animals! Indeed, atherosclerosis is one
of the easiest diseases to produce experimentally,
but the experimental animal must be an herbivore.
It is not possible to produce atherosclerosis in a
carnivore…"

He elaborates in an earlier editorial:

It is virtually impossible, for example, to produce atherosclerosis in a dog even when 100 grams of cholesterol and 120 grams of butter fat are added to its meat ration. (This amount of cholesterol
is approximately 200 times the average amount that human beings in the USA
eat each day!). (The American Journal of Cardiology, 1990, vol. 66,896.)

He then utterly annihilates the human omnivore myth in a single sentence. here it is:

***Because humans get atherosclerosis, and atherosclerosis
is a disease only of herbivores, humans also must be
herbivores.***

At once the insanity of our times comes into razor sharp relief.

Some may debate whether cholesterol is the sole cause of heart disease. It does not matter, the fact remains that atherosclerosis occurs only in herbivores.

If humans were physiological omnivores, heart disease would not exist, let alone be America's #1 killer for over a hundred years.

It may not be the least bit hyperbolic to say that the existence of heart disease in humans is proof that we, as a species, are vegans.

In any case, a low fat vegan diet has been proven again and again to be the cure for heart disease. A mountain of clinical evidence supports this.

According to Roberts, those who are utterly immune to heart disease without the use of statin drugs are pure vegetarian fruit eaters. His own exact words. fruit eaters.

For me it's unnatural to eat meat. We don't have the teeth or digestive system of a carnivore.

Quite right. Physiologically we are herbivores. Here is an article by the Editor of the American Journal of Cardiology (I know, another pseudo scientific rag) :


William C. Roberts MD has five decades of experience in the field of cardiology, written over 1300 scientific publications, a dozen cardiology textbooks, and has been editor in chief of the American Journal of Cardiology for a quarter of a century. He is arguably the most highly regarded cardiologist in the world today.

In his 2008 editorial "The Cause of Atherosclerosis", published in the peer reviewed journal Nutrition in Clinical Practice, Roberts states that there is a single, sole cause to heart disease: cholesterol. If your total cholesterol is below 150 and LDL is below 70, you are essentially heart attack proof. What is the cause of high cholesterol? Saturated fat and animal products:

Atherosclerosis is easily produced in nonhuman
herbivores (eg, rabbits, monkeys) by feeding them
a high cholesterol (eg, egg yolks) or high saturated
fat (eg, animal fat) diet… And atherosclerosis was not produced in a
minority of rats fed these diets, it was produced in
100% of the animals! Indeed, atherosclerosis is one
of the easiest diseases to produce experimentally,
but the experimental animal must be an herbivore.
It is not possible to produce atherosclerosis in a
carnivore…"

He elaborates in an earlier editorial:

It is virtually impossible, for example, to produce atherosclerosis in a dog even when 100 grams of cholesterol and 120 grams of butter fat are added to its meat ration. (This amount of cholesterol
is approximately 200 times the average amount that human beings in the USA
eat each day!). (The American Journal of Cardiology, 1990, vol. 66,896.)

He then utterly annihilates the human omnivore myth in a single sentence. here it is:

***Because humans get atherosclerosis, and atherosclerosis
is a disease only of herbivores, humans also must be
herbivores.***

At once the insanity of our times comes into razor sharp relief.

Some may debate whether cholesterol is the sole cause of heart disease. It does not matter, the fact remains that atherosclerosis occurs only in herbivores.

If humans were physiological omnivores, heart disease would not exist, let alone be America's #1 killer for over a hundred years.

It may not be the least bit hyperbolic to say that the existence of heart disease in humans is proof that we, as a species, are vegans.

In any case, a low fat vegan diet has been proven again and again to be the cure for heart disease. A mountain of clinical evidence supports this.

According to Roberts, those who are utterly immune to heart disease without the use of statin drugs are pure vegetarian fruit eaters. His own exact words. fruit eaters.

Wow, that's a helluva logical fallacy. What about the tiny little detail that no actual clinical studies have been able to show causation linking atherosclerosis to saturated fat, or cholesterol consumption? A minor detail, I'm sure.

It seems that no matter what dietary choice you make, you can find academic journal articles which will support it, and/or other ones which will say it's not the ideal. There is no "right answer" in regards to this debate. It is agreed by all that you should eat a lot of fruits and vegetables. It is agreed by all that if you do eat meat, that you "try" to eat locally grown, free-range meats for the best nutritional value.

Other than that, it's simply doing what is best for you, your body, your budget, etc. (Despite the rants of some of the crazies on both sides of the spectrum..."Animal protein will kill you! No, soy will kill you!" blah blah blah

I'm seeing a bit of a negative vegan/vegetarian conversation going on... but just to add my views, i'm vegan (been vegetarian since birth, vegan for over 3 years) and happy! I make sure to try and hit all of my goals (calories, protein, vitamin B12, calcium, as well as taking iron supplements)- I believe that a lot of vegans, in fact most vegans, are more healthy than those who eat meat (more referring to those not on MFP!) because living the vegan lifestyle makes you aware of what you're eating and what your choices are.
I've never been a militant vegan, and don't want to be. I get a little frustrated when I have non vegan friends waving chicken wings about in my face saying 'go on eat it!' or being told that people can't stand listening to vegan 'propaganda' when us vegans are surrounded by meat and dairy... I went shopping in a real supermarket for the first time in a long time (I normally get my food shop delivered) and there are just aisles after aisles of meat, fish, dairy.
I also don't like people who say things like 'humans are supposed to eat meat, because of -insert popular wrong belief here- 'just eat some steak' 'but bacon tastes so good' blah blah blah. It's plain disrespectful. For me, being vegan isn't a taste based decision!
However I do LOVE people who are interested in finding out about veganism... I turned vegan when I was 16 and had a lot of people who thought I was 'weird' or 'stupid' at college for doing it. However I appreciate when people want to educate themselves about why i'm vegan or learn about vegan products- if meat eaters take the time to just check out some documentaries (like Earthlings!), or read an article about it, then they're becoming more informed of the facts (because it is fact based, not opinion based). I'm not asking everyone in the world to go vegan, just to be open minded about it (:

Also, vegan food can be SO good. My boyfriend eats meat and loves a lot of the food I make.

edit: sorry for such a long post!

Do you not think saying meat eaters are promoting cruelty as being negative towards us?

Vegetarian.

Meat is NEVER healthy. Most meat eaters trick themselves into believing that's not true. But it's just a myth that meat farmers try to make you believe. So that you buy their meat. So that they still earn money.

And people who say "you can't live without meat where I am" ... yes ... you can. Your local stores don't have beans and veggies? Really? If they don't, you probably aren't getting a balanced diet anyway.

Also ... keep in mind ... that when you're eating meat, you are promoting DEATH. Tell me this ... why should an animal be killed and tortured just so you can have some tasty food? Why are you so much better than that animal? Why can't you get that delicious taste somewhere else? (Ex. veggie burgers, veggie chicken, veggie sausages, etc. ... trust me, they ARE available ... and DELICIOUS at that)

Yeah, I feel pretty strongly about being a vegetarian. Maybe it's just because I have empathy and actually feel sorry for things that die?
I'm working on becoming a vegan. I don't eat eggs but I do eat some milk products on occasion. Very rarely though. Working to cut it out completely!

a lot of animals die during the production of grains ,and soy during harvesting ,or prepping for harvest. its just a matter of where we draw the line, but we all promote lifestyles that kill animals.

There is a difference between intentionally killing, and accidentally killing. Even our penal code recognizes that. Veganism is an ethic, and do I think it is a superior ethic? Of course I do. If I didn't I wouldn't be one.

it's not accidental killing if you know that animals are there and will die during harvesting. So cant say it's accidental.
[/quote

You know, I am really touched by the concern that meat eaters have for animals that may be killed in the harvesting of vegetables and grains. The only think I don't understand is why don't you show that same concern for the animals you eat. Never mind, there is such a thing as Karma. You kill the cow, the cow kills you.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/mar/12/red-meat-death-heart-cancer

just showing how hypocritical you are.

I'M hypocritical!!!? Wow. I guess our penal code is hypocritical too. When you don't try to kill, and you don't want to kill, it is not the same thing as being a bloodthirsty killer.

if i took a bulldozer to a neighborhood full of homes and people to make room for a farm and in the process killed people would our penal code say it was just an accident ?

For me it's unnatural to eat meat. We don't have the teeth or digestive system of a carnivore.

Quite right. Physiologically we are herbivores. Here is an article by the Editor of the American Journal of Cardiology (I know, another pseudo scientific rag) :


William C. Roberts MD has five decades of experience in the field of cardiology, written over 1300 scientific publications, a dozen cardiology textbooks, and has been editor in chief of the American Journal of Cardiology for a quarter of a century. He is arguably the most highly regarded cardiologist in the world today.

In his 2008 editorial "The Cause of Atherosclerosis", published in the peer reviewed journal Nutrition in Clinical Practice, Roberts states that there is a single, sole cause to heart disease: cholesterol. If your total cholesterol is below 150 and LDL is below 70, you are essentially heart attack proof. What is the cause of high cholesterol? Saturated fat and animal products:

Atherosclerosis is easily produced in nonhuman
herbivores (eg, rabbits, monkeys) by feeding them
a high cholesterol (eg, egg yolks) or high saturated
fat (eg, animal fat) diet… And atherosclerosis was not produced in a
minority of rats fed these diets, it was produced in
100% of the animals! Indeed, atherosclerosis is one
of the easiest diseases to produce experimentally,
but the experimental animal must be an herbivore.
It is not possible to produce atherosclerosis in a
carnivore…"

He elaborates in an earlier editorial:

It is virtually impossible, for example, to produce atherosclerosis in a dog even when 100 grams of cholesterol and 120 grams of butter fat are added to its meat ration. (This amount of cholesterol
is approximately 200 times the average amount that human beings in the USA
eat each day!). (The American Journal of Cardiology, 1990, vol. 66,896.)

He then utterly annihilates the human omnivore myth in a single sentence. here it is:

***Because humans get atherosclerosis, and atherosclerosis
is a disease only of herbivores, humans also must be
herbivores.***

At once the insanity of our times comes into razor sharp relief.

Some may debate whether cholesterol is the sole cause of heart disease. It does not matter, the fact remains that atherosclerosis occurs only in herbivores.

If humans were physiological omnivores, heart disease would not exist, let alone be America's #1 killer for over a hundred years.

It may not be the least bit hyperbolic to say that the existence of heart disease in humans is proof that we, as a species, are vegans.

In any case, a low fat vegan diet has been proven again and again to be the cure for heart disease. A mountain of clinical evidence supports this.

According to Roberts, those who are utterly immune to heart disease without the use of statin drugs are pure vegetarian fruit eaters. His own exact words. fruit eaters.

Wow, that's a helluva logical fallacy. What about the tiny little detail that no actual clinical studies have been able to show causation linking atherosclerosis to saturated fat, or cholesterol consumption? A minor detail, I'm sure.

What about the fact that you have no clue what you are talking about. Do you understand that 500 studies that show a definitive correlation are valuable studies? Do you understand that NO STUDY can ever control for every independent variable? Do you even know what an independent variable is?

I'm sorry, but to say animals are killed in the production of harvesting grains is the same thing as eating meat is just plain stupid.

What you're referring to are small mice or insects that might die accidentally here and there during production VS.

27 MILLION animals are killed EVERY DAY for food in the US alone.

Doing your best to alleviate suffering is a lot different than doing nothing.

If you noticed I did not claim they are exactly the same. I said we simply draw the line in a different place indicating you choose to allow Less animals to die for your food consumption than I do, but they still die. I honestly do respect your efforts, but when someone posts I'm promoting cruelty expect me to point out if you have any hipocrisy. If you truly want to be humane stay away from anything produced by large farms and grow everything yourself.

Gosh, no. Killing and then eating the corpse is not cruelty! My God, who could ever think that!!!

I'm a carnivore who loves vegetarian food!! I think meat and eggs are good for you as long as you get the most unprocessed kind you can find.....not that I always do this tho, let's face it, organic hormone free free range animal products are EXPENSIVE. I also don't like to drink milk, cuz I can't get over the fact there is puss in it, so I use almond milk instead. I will have the occasional chocolate milk tho. I love equally my moose steak and my quinoa and black beans.

I know that meat starts fermenting in our digestive tracts, but i don't drink in excess or smoke or overdo it on animal products so I think I balance out. Balance and moderation are key!!!