Why do people get so provoked by vegans?
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.... I'm irked by people who tell me that they'd rather not know what happens to the animals, because then they'll feel bad....
I second this whole heartedly.
People seem very far removed from the food chain anymore and it worries me. Being out in the agricultural field made me really realize how animals are treated and made me think about what I was comfortable with. It was very important to me to understand managerial practices and hear the logic on why they are done.
I know one of the things that still bothers me is the lack of anesthesia for dehornings done by farmers. The vet I worked for did all dehornings with proper pain relief, sedation and cautery. I know now that this is often not the case. There are still farmers that believe cows feel pain differently than we do. I chalk it up more to them being stoic as they are a prey species, but that's neither here nor there.
Another thing I learned was why some practices take place. I never understood why dairy cattle always seemed to be covered in poo until I actually met them. Dairy cattle, in my experience, are very indifferent to where they poop. (pigs are totally different. If given the choice they only poop in one spot which is removed from where they sleep). We watched more than one cow back up into another cow and then just defecate on her like there was no cow there. The worst part was we were in a large field where the cow could have easily walked away to a clear spot to poop. I suddenly understood why one farmer told me he was "a poo manager". Even in facilities that were run properly, they still were cleaning several times a day to get rid of the manure. Then there was the matter of managing where the poop went afterwards. It was a nightmare!
I think that by learning from actual practices (agri mangement courses, visiting farms, and seeing what's out there in person) a person gets a much broader appreciation for the food chain as well as what works and what doesn't. I think that first hand experience (when obtainable) is very important before making a decision about how they feel about an issue.
This summer I spent a week at a cottage I've been to before which is right in the middle of several farms. I usually go pat the cows and go for walks and see them give birth and so on. One evening I had a conversation with one of the farmers because when he drove up to feed them I was kneeling down to pat them. They all recognised his van in the distance, mooed and ran over to their troughs, so they're definitely not daft. Anyway, the point I was getting to is that the farmer genuinely cared about their welfare. He didn't feed them growth hormones etc. (I'd asked how old they were and about the feed, just out of interest). There were two male calves and he said they were being transported live to Spain in a few days for meat. I find that sad but it didn't make him any less a decent person. There was a blind calve in the group that he had a pet name. I mentioned a field further down where a cow had two calves and asked if they'd been kept together because the calves were for dairy. He said they were male but the mother had torn her shoulder before birth, so they'd called the vet out to fix it, then gave her a lot of space.
I have no problem with people producing dairy this way. I didn't even mention that I was vegan because it was irrelevant. In fact, if the dairy cows weren't sold as veal or meat, I'd quite like to be a farmer for dairy. Genuinely. Same as egg if the male chicks weren't killed.
Also, I don't like PETA. Most vegans in the UK dislike them.0 -
To explain my point that I think slaughtering and producing animals for food is cruel (not that meat eaters are cruel) I'll use my grandfather as an example:
He grew up on a farm on a small remote island. The barn cat became pregnant and they couldn't keep the kitten. My grandfather, a young boy at the time, was told by his parents to go drown the kittens, which he did. The mother cat wouldn't stop crying, so he was then told to drown her too - which he did.
He was a completely lovely, kind man during his lifetime. Despite doing what we now generally consider to be a cruel thing. Times change and so does circumstance.
I'm very sorry he had to experience that. I've very glad you never had to because that is a horrible situation. However, I'm going to use my grandfather as an example to the counter argument.
My grandfather was a pig farmer. He was know for having genetically superior sows. He never bred them more than once a year because he was concerned about uterine prolapse or wearing out his sows. He had only 4-6 piglets (4 pigs are required for a sow to maintain pregnancy) in a little because he wanted quality pigs rather than quantity. He had a survival rate of near 95% which people in the ag field will tell you is obscene.
He also had people drop off cats at his farm on many ocassions.
Now, as anyone who is into pigs knows, they are an excellent vector for zoonotic diseases to spread to humans and vice versa (H1N1, I rest my case). So, since pigs can spread things to humans, farmers who are serious often control the pigs like a biosafety operation. Some farms even require you to shower and put on a sterilized suit before entering the hog housing. Many farmers hate cats because cats are excellent vectors (and carriers of contaminated material) for disease like toxoplasmosis and other diseases which may cause abortions. You are absolutely correct that some will even go as far as killing feral cats (though they usually prefer a high powered rifle because it is quicker) on their properties to keep the diseases at bay.
Side note: I also know wildlife conservationist who hate feral cats for killing off native lizards, birds and rodents. They consider the cats to be an invasive and species that is destroying out ecosystems. Some of these people have already tried to kill off feral cat populations only to discover that more cats show up to take their places. This is why trap-neuter-return programs are popular for dismantling cat colonies. With the living cats still there, the cats consume resources and prevent new cats from moving in.
To continue with the story, my grandfather was told he should kill the cats because they'd harm his pigs.
He refused.
My grandfather vaccinated every kitten on that farm and treated them at the first sign of illness to prevent disease spread. He would provide food for them so that they were comfortable with him getting close to them to give them treatments when they were ill. He did a very good job of locking the cats out of the hog houses and never once did he kill a single cat. He had a deworming program in place and kept a master list of all cats on the farm so he could track their health. In turn, the farm cats would run off intruders, preventing the spread of disease between farms from roaming toms.
As children, we were encouraged to handel the cats so that they would become amiable to human contact. I still remember helping to vaccinate my little orange tiger girl (a rare find) for rabies when I was about 8 years old.
He could have just killed them, but he chose not too.
Not everyone perpetuates animal suffering0 -
i understand where you are coming from...I never preach about the way I live, but the moment someone offers me a cheeseburger and I politely say " No thanks, I'm vegan... You should see the looks I get. The next question is usually either, what is that, or why....and then I get a slew of negativity, which I don't understand. If you like meat, eat meat, if you dont have mine because it's not something I prefer. People do judge you based on how you live and what you eat, especially if you aren't like them.
Why "...I'm vegan..."
Someone offers me a cheeseburger I'm thinking "No thanks, that crap will kill you," but I only say the "No thanks," part.
Honestly, I attempt to do the no thank you only, but because nice people really want to share, eventually I have to say something about why not because they keep trying. Some veggies just put that out there as short hand. My coworkers have a lot of trouble keeping what I do and don't eat straight, but we just keep plugging along.
BTW, saying "I'm vegan" is *not* equivalent to calling someone else's food crap. THAT is what vegans are talking about when they say people immediately believe they're being judged when a vegan declares him or herself.
Seems reasonable.
Thanks, Steve - you seem like a good guy. I'd hug you now, but you probably ate some meat today, and I don't want to contaminate myself. (I'm kidding, of course - about the contamination... I like hugs)
Had a subway veggie sub for dinner. On this rare occasion, you'd be safe.0 -
Had a subway veggie sub for dinner. On this rare occasion, you'd be safe.
LOL! 0 -
I am now going back to read the last few pages of this thread in their entirety. This thread has gone very fast, and it's been hard to keep up. I want to say how delighted I am with the level of discourse here--it was polite, and enlightening. I genuinely like understanding different points of view on this issue because I have strong feelings on it, and I frequently find myself confused about why people feel the way they do. I thank everyone who made a serious effort to explain their thoughts and feelings in a deep and meaningful way.0
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Crimsoncat,
Totally off-topic question, but do you post on Jezebel? Someone posted the fact about pigs only doing the toilet in a certain place (unless distressed) on a thread there recently. One about the teacup pig from Here Comes Honey Boo Boo. Maybe it was someone else completely, but thinking about it I've heard 'crimsoncat' somewhere else.0 -
I love vegan food.
I also love meat.
I love all foods equally.
If vegans didn't exist I wouldn't be able to eat their yummy foods...
THIS!
I love my vegan friends, I love their food and I respect what they're trying to do even if it isn't my thing. That said, going strict vegan isn't a guarantee of excellent health as I know a few vegans with weight problems that just seem to be getting worse over the years.0 -
I love vegan food.
I also love meat.
I love all foods equally.
If vegans didn't exist I wouldn't be able to eat their yummy foods...
THIS!
I love my vegan friends, I love their food and I respect what they're trying to do even if it isn't my thing. That said, going strict vegan isn't a guarantee of excellent health as I know a few vegans with weight problems that just seem to be getting worse over the years.
I also know a few overweight vegans. Nowadays you can get a lot of vegan junk food. Then there's all the 'accidentally vegan' stuff like Co-op donuts. Now that most companies have the allergy label: no milk, no egg etc. it's much easier to eat rubbish and be vegan.0 -
I think if anything it's the general stereotype of Vegans being violently Vegan and acting like they're better than everyone else. That could make some people get alittle defensive around vegans. Though most vegans are actually pretty nice people and I will eat vegan food just as happily as I will eat vegetarian or non-vegetarian. Though I do prefer eating meat from more humane sources (and I'm not all that fond of steak anyways.)0
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Most people in my real life don't even know I'm a vegan. But, there are times it comes up and my mere existence seems to challenge some people, no matter how polite and accepting I try to be.
You are exactly the kind of vegan I DON'T mind being around. More power to you! I wish all vegans were like you 0 -
I appreciate your inquiry. The crux of the matter for me boils down to this: I do not think that one animal killing and eating another type of animal is an inherently bad thing that one should try to put a stop to, and have yet to be convinced otherwise. I don't unquestioningly accept that as the way of the world where humans are concerned, but to this point in time I do not find eating meat to be troubling or wrong, for us or for other animals. Humans can most definitely get by without eating meat, and if I believed that eating meat was a cruel/bad/wrong thing to do, then I wouldn't eat meat, and I would try to convince others not to as well. Because of that, I say more power to any vegetarians/vegans who want to espouse their beliefs, including if they want to tell me that I shouldn't eat meat. If they think that's right, they should be making a case for it. But, as it turns out, I am not (as of now at least) convinced, because I think that animals eating animals is an acceptable part of the natural world, which none of the animals involved need apologize for.
Consider the following typical sort of exchange (roughly this very thing came up a day or two ago in a loooong thread).
Non-vegan: "I don't feel any worse for my steak than the lion does for the gazelle."
Vegan: "Shouldn't you aspire to a higher standard than the lion?"
I do sympathize with the Vegan here, since the Non-vegan's line sounds kinda like, "But everyone else was jumping off the bridge!" At the same time, though, I am ultimately not swayed by the Vegan, precisely because her response already relies on the assumption that one animal eating another is inherently bad; that is, I am not convinced of the notion that refraining from eating other animals is actually "higher" behavior in the first place, and so I do not see it as something to aspire to as a way to positively differentiate myself from non-human carnivores.
I know that my eating chickens is bad for the chickens; that isn't lost on me of course, yet I still believe that the act isn't wrong. In disregarding the welfare of the chickens I eat, I am drawing what is an admittedly somewhat arbitrary line between humans (who I won't kill and eat) and non-humans. Others draw it between animals and non-animals; the thing is, I ultimately find that no less arbitrary than mine. (Yes, there are stark differences between animals and non-animals, but there are also stark differences between humans and non-humans.) Until I am convinced that I have drawn the line in the wrong place (despite the fact that many other species draw the line that same way), I will continue to eat meat with a clear conscience. With eyes wide open, I do place my desire to consume a chicken above its desire to live, and I honestly don't feel wrong about that.
I very, very much appreciate well spoken people who have thought about their eating habits, and are sincere, whatever their stance on meat. I don't think eating meat is inherently wrong, either. *gasp* I just think it's not for me. I don't think people who choose meat are bad people. But I don't like excuses, and I'm irked by people who tell me that they'd rather not know what happens to the animals, because then they'll feel bad (ps - I don't necessarily get told this because I was offering to tell someone what does happen). I feel the same when I hear that excuse about human welfare issues. That's just weird to me.
I echo appreciation for this poster's well thought-out post. I agree that it's a matter of where to draw the line, but there seems to be concern and thought given to the issues here.
The one thing that truly pains me on these threads is the meat-eater who shows indifference to the life sacrifice of the animal which feeds him. I think it bothers me most because it seems so insensitive to people who think of animals differently--vegans, and others who might find selective animal farming practices objectionable--and it also seems callous and brutish towards animals.
This post proves to me that some meat-eaters do ponder this subject well beyond a cursory exploration.0 -
Crimsoncat,
Totally off-topic question, but do you post on Jezebel? Someone posted the fact about pigs only doing the toilet in a certain place (unless distressed) on a thread there recently. One about the teacup pig from Here Comes Honey Boo Boo. Maybe it was someone else completely, but thinking about it I've heard 'crimsoncat' somewhere else.
I've never heard of Jezebel. I'm in veterinary medical school and I jsut go done with a "topics in animal welfare" class were we debated things like feral cats, branding, dehorning, hen housing, sow housing including gestation crates versus farrowing crates (which are totally different things btw) and other hot topics in the vet world. Our teacher has a pot bellied pig, so she would always tell us fun stories like that. Plus I worked at my undergrads barn for a year so I got to help raise the piglets and they ALWAYS pooped in one corner of their cage. Not to mention my grandpa's pigs always did the same thing too.
Also, if you really want to judge a pig farmer, there should never be more than 50 pigs in a group. Pigs have excellent memories and are super trainable, but cannot recall more than 50 pigs at a time. if you put them in with too many pigs, they will fight and fight and the battle wounds are horrific. It's rare to see that because it causes production loss, but there was one hobby farmer who didn't know that and put 60 pigs on his "free range field. I wanted to smack him.
So yeah, I'm just super up on these topics cause it's the love of my life. XD
That's why I got so angry with my one vegan friend. She just judged without taking the time to learn.
For example, she hated farrowing crates because she thought they were the same as gestation crates. The difference is that farrowing crates are only used to protect the piglets when they are very young. The sows are not put into those crates (at a good farm) but a few days before birthing. As my grandpa put it "some sows will hold themselves up for three days to let their piglets move out from under them while others will crush them without a care. I only breed for the good moms, but these crates ensure that the piglets don't get suffocated by accident". Once the piglets were older and weaned, they were moved to their own enclosure and the sows were put in large group housing.
Gestation crates are used for farmer convince because they make it easy to breed the pigs and check the pigs. It also is a little cleaner in terms of less hog to hog contact to spread disease. My grandpa didn't use them because "the pigs get bored and will chew on them all day looking for fun. It makes me uncomfortable to watch it." I don't like gestation crates because the pigs are in them for too long and there are better management systems with lower stress and still acceptable disease prevention rates.
I follow this belief and it gets me along well:
1. Learn more, because you never know what you don't know until you start to learn.
2. Make up your mind AFTER you have learned and then keep it open to change if new facts come to light.
Anyway, I think I'll go to bed now. I'm glad you continued to talk to me. At first I was very upset with what you said, but now I see we clearly just didn't know each other well. 0 -
It's like religion
No one cares if a person is vegan or not, just quit cramming the lifestyle down other's throats.
This 100%
Having said that - not all vegans shove the lifestyle down our throats...but the ones that do - quit it!0 -
I am now going back to read the last few pages of this thread in their entirety. This thread has gone very fast, and it's been hard to keep up. I want to say how delighted I am with the level of discourse here--it was polite, and enlightening. I genuinely like understanding different points of view on this issue because I have strong feelings on it, and I frequently find myself confused about why people feel the way they do. I thank everyone who made a serious effort to explain their thoughts and feelings in a deep and meaningful way.
I'm with you. I'm so proud of us all. Hugs to you too, VoV.0 -
thats pretty much where I am. A LOT of people get upset about it, especially family, because they get frustrated, and they feel I am better than them and that their food isnt good enough. Especially my grandmother and aunt who are off the boat from Poland, and common staples in their diet are kielbasa, duck blood soup and peirogis ( which I still do eat on occasion )Most people in my real life don't even know I'm a vegan. But, there are times it comes up and my mere existence seems to challenge some people, no matter how polite and accepting I try to be.
You are exactly the kind of vegan I DON'T mind being around. More power to you! I wish all vegans were like you0 -
thats pretty much where I am. A LOT of people get upset about it, especially family, because they get frustrated, and they feel I am better than them and that their food isnt good enough. Especially my grandmother and aunt who are off the boat from Poland, and common staples in their diet are kielbasa, duck blood soup and peirogis ( which I still do eat on occasion )Most people in my real life don't even know I'm a vegan. But, there are times it comes up and my mere existence seems to challenge some people, no matter how polite and accepting I try to be.
You are exactly the kind of vegan I DON'T mind being around. More power to you! I wish all vegans were like you
the peirgois , not the meat or the soup.0 -
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the peirgois , not the meat or the soup.
I LOVE pierogies. I don't have anyone in my life who makes fresh ones, but I find them in the store now, and there is a kosher variety that is (as far as I can tell) free of animal products. Yum!0 -
It's like religion
No one cares if a person is vegan or not, just quit cramming the lifestyle down other's throats.
I am vegetarian and I know vegan people. It's usually the other way around, meaning that myfriends and the non-vegetarian people I know keep trying to make me stop being vegetarian.
I suppose no matter which one you are, when they try to force you to do something, it's equally annoying.
This is what I experience a lot. I don't talk about being veggie or bring it up. That's not because of being ashamed, it's just that I don't need to and it's not necessary. Once and awhile people ask, oh are you a vegetarian? I will say yes. Most people that ask often follow that up with wanting to know why and they always assume it's some sort of political reason; like animal rights or something. I get tired of having to explain that, believe it or not, I'm doing it because it's what works for me. Much like what the original poster talks about. I just get tired of having to convince/prove that it's not for any other reason than my personal health. My husband is a huge meat eater - and it doesn't bother me at all and why should it? That's his personal choice. I don't question non-veggies, but for some reason the people in my life/community have to question me. It's simply a personal health decision. I haven't been able to lose weight until I made this change. So it works for me. :happy:0 -
[
the peirgois , not the meat or the soup.
I LOVE pierogies. I don't have anyone in my life who makes fresh ones, but I find them in the store now, and there is a kosher variety that is (as far as I can tell) free of animal products. Yum!
The best homemade pierogies I ever had were vegan--stuffed with finely chopped wild mushroom duxelles (YUM!)0 -
the peirgois , not the meat or the soup.
I LOVE pierogies. I don't have anyone in my life who makes fresh ones, but I find them in the store now, and there is a kosher variety that is (as far as I can tell) free of animal products. Yum!
The best homemade pierogies I ever had were vegan--stuffed with finely chopped wild mushroom duxelles (YUM!)
That sounds like love on a plate. Mmmm.0
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