Are we all..sexist?
Replies
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How does he know that a lesser quilified piece of eye candy got the job over him? Did they send him a letter saying that we decided to give the job to a woman that we would rather look at better than you. Oh, and by the way, she doesn't know anything about this job. i'm not saying this doesn't happen as far as the hiring is concerned. But, you usually don't find out who they hired instead of you.
So..I previously mentioned it but I'll go into a little more detail. He has a friend that's a manager at the location and this manager went out of his way to give my friend a good recommendation and was surprised that they hired this other female. He has access to her CV and she is a recent grad with no experience whereas my friend has a year experience. When my friend mentioned it of course I defended their decision...I told him that even though he has a year of experience over her maybe they were trying to be decent human beings and give her a job and he already has one so he should be happy. But the eye candy theory came up cause he was told by ppl that work there that the new hire is pretty. The manager friend never got a straight forward answer from the people that were hiring for their decision.
I am curious, if another man who had the same qualifications as the women got the job over your friend -- would how the man look play any role in his conclusion? Would he or others blame looks...0 -
A lot more goes into the hiring process than experience. And one year isn't exactly expert-level. It's entirely possible they found her equally qualified and she gave a better interview or something else subjective that has nothing to do with her being pretty.How does he know that a lesser quilified piece of eye candy got the job over him? Did they send him a letter saying that we decided to give the job to a woman that we would rather look at better than you. Oh, and by the way, she doesn't know anything about this job. i'm not saying this doesn't happen as far as the hiring is concerned. But, you usually don't find out who they hired instead of you.
So..I previously mentioned it but I'll go into a little more detail. He has a friend that's a manager at the location and this manager went out of his way to give my friend a good recommendation and was surprised that they hired this other female. He has access to her CV and she is a recent grad with no experience whereas my friend has a year experience. When my friend mentioned it of course I defended their decision...I told him that even though he has a year of experience over her maybe they were trying to be decent human beings and give her a job and he already has one so he should be happy. But the eye candy theory came up cause he was told by ppl that work there that the new hire is pretty. The manager friend never got a straight forward answer from the people that were hiring for their decision.
I am curious, if another man who had the same qualifications as the women got the job over your friend -- would how the man look play any role in his conclusion? Would he or others blame looks...
Less experience doesn't mean less qualified.0 -
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How does he know that a lesser quilified piece of eye candy got the job over him? Did they send him a letter saying that we decided to give the job to a woman that we would rather look at better than you. Oh, and by the way, she doesn't know anything about this job. i'm not saying this doesn't happen as far as the hiring is concerned. But, you usually don't find out who they hired instead of you.
So..I previously mentioned it but I'll go into a little more detail. He has a friend that's a manager at the location and this manager went out of his way to give my friend a good recommendation and was surprised that they hired this other female. He has access to her CV and she is a recent grad with no experience whereas my friend has a year experience. When my friend mentioned it of course I defended their decision...I told him that even though he has a year of experience over her maybe they were trying to be decent human beings and give her a job and he already has one so he should be happy. But the eye candy theory came up cause he was told by ppl that work there that the new hire is pretty. The manager friend never got a straight forward answer from the people that were hiring for their decision.
I am curious, if another man who had the same qualifications as the women got the job over your friend -- would how the man look play any role in his conclusion? Would he or others blame looks...
I like the way you think...prob not. Thank you for bringing this viewpoint to the table!
:flowerforyou:
ETA: my smile didn't work lol0 -
What in the world kind of job did you get??How does he know that a lesser quilified piece of eye candy got the job over him? Did they send him a letter saying that we decided to give the job to a woman that we would rather look at better than you. Oh, and by the way, she doesn't know anything about this job. i'm not saying this doesn't happen as far as the hiring is concerned. But, you usually don't find out who they hired instead of you.
So..I previously mentioned it but I'll go into a little more detail. He has a friend that's a manager at the location and this manager went out of his way to give my friend a good recommendation and was surprised that they hired this other female. He has access to her CV and she is a recent grad with no experience whereas my friend has a year experience. When my friend mentioned it of course I defended their decision...I told him that even though he has a year of experience over her maybe they were trying to be decent human beings and give her a job and he already has one so he should be happy. But the eye candy theory came up cause he was told by ppl that work there that the new hire is pretty. The manager friend never got a straight forward answer from the people that were hiring for their decision.
That manager's confidentiality skills seem very poor.
The manager who had access to her CV should not be sharing details about it to his friends.
That's fair. I agree.
But I'll bring it back to me. When I was applying to a job like 3 years ago the manager hiring me gave me no interview. I was sure that I wasn't getting the job because that was the weirdest "interview" ever. (I got asked no questions at all!) turns out I got the job. I found out later on that the manager has a soft spot for attractive women.. And no, I got paid the same as a male in that position.
My best friend got hired in a similar fashion, but she's a bartender. Looks matter in that line of work and female bartenders tend to bring in more business.0 -
^ right there with you. Where's the abandon thread gif when you need it???
Will this do?
No:ohwell: but A for effort and I promise I'm not being sexist. :laugh:0 -
Nooo. Do you hang around girls? Any? At all? Even one? Because most women have witnessed or experienced this some time in their life. Do you know that some abstinence-only schools are trying to push girls into wearing chastity rings, but boys are not required to do so? Do you know that there are actual workshops and books designed to tell women to "keep themselves pure and clean", and not all of them are even religious? A girl has sex at 15 and she's a *kitten*, a guy has sex at 15 and he's cool. The idea that a woman's worth relies on whether or not her hymen is intact has NOT died out.
"Do you know that some abstinence-only schools"
"abstinence-only schools"
........
I have no idea what to even say to that. Can anyone else confirm these actually exist? I'm finding it incredibly hard believing it. It's not a concept I've ever even heard speak of before. It's a concept that is wholly laughable.
Ah, I actually meant abstinence-only education. There are no "schools" per se (which, I agree, would be laughable), but there are programs. Schools adopt abstinence-only policies instead of teaching actual sex education and from what I gather the instructors tend to tell the boys to keep it in their pants and then go on to lecture girls about their roles in society, how people will perceive them if they give it up, about their responsibilities to remain pure and keep The Penis away from them, how it's their fault if they get knocked up, etc.
I have family who live in Mississippi so this isn't just "oh, well, i've heard from somewhere...". Still, you can easily google it if you're interested. It is actually A Thing.
And I seriously need to get off this thread. Listen, can we just agree that you're not a woman and have no idea of the kind of things women are subjected to on a daily basis? The same way I'm hardly an expert in the the things men go through (though considering I compiled a list of expectations, biases, and prejudices against males I think it's safe to say that I'm at least willing to see the sexism and double-standards all around us instead of pretending it doesn't exist) you're hardly one regarding females. Sexism and misogyny exist whether you like it or even want to admit it.
Ta.0 -
I'll happily admit I'm sexist. I expect men to hold doors open for me.0
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Nooo. Do you hang around girls? Any? At all? Even one? Because most women have witnessed or experienced this some time in their life. Do you know that some abstinence-only schools are trying to push girls into wearing chastity rings, but boys are not required to do so? Do you know that there are actual workshops and books designed to tell women to "keep themselves pure and clean", and not all of them are even religious? A girl has sex at 15 and she's a *kitten*, a guy has sex at 15 and he's cool. The idea that a woman's worth relies on whether or not her hymen is intact has NOT died out.
Huh.
I was 16 and my best friend was 14 and neither of us got labeled any of those things.0 -
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Nooo. Do you hang around girls? Any? At all? Even one? Because most women have witnessed or experienced this some time in their life. Do you know that some abstinence-only schools are trying to push girls into wearing chastity rings, but boys are not required to do so? Do you know that there are actual workshops and books designed to tell women to "keep themselves pure and clean", and not all of them are even religious? A girl has sex at 15 and she's a *kitten*, a guy has sex at 15 and he's cool. The idea that a woman's worth relies on whether or not her hymen is intact has NOT died out.
"Do you know that some abstinence-only schools"
"abstinence-only schools"
........
I have no idea what to even say to that. Can anyone else confirm these actually exist? I'm finding it incredibly hard believing it. It's not a concept I've ever even heard speak of before. It's a concept that is wholly laughable.
Oh my...
It is real. There are many schools that don't teach much about sexual health or reproduction -- why do you think there are SO many TOM threads on these boards. You've never heard of "True Love Waits"? I went it a public school in PA they did a virginity pledge around prom time.
ETA: That pledge was for girls only.
Wow. That is terrifying. So it seems yes, it is a cultural thing. Here by law all schoolchildren have to be taught a full curriculum covering reproduction, sexual relations, human sexual biology, birth control, STIs and puberty.
I went to a Catholic school and was taught all that stuff from 9 or 10.0 -
What in the world kind of job did you get??How does he know that a lesser quilified piece of eye candy got the job over him? Did they send him a letter saying that we decided to give the job to a woman that we would rather look at better than you. Oh, and by the way, she doesn't know anything about this job. i'm not saying this doesn't happen as far as the hiring is concerned. But, you usually don't find out who they hired instead of you.
So..I previously mentioned it but I'll go into a little more detail. He has a friend that's a manager at the location and this manager went out of his way to give my friend a good recommendation and was surprised that they hired this other female. He has access to her CV and she is a recent grad with no experience whereas my friend has a year experience. When my friend mentioned it of course I defended their decision...I told him that even though he has a year of experience over her maybe they were trying to be decent human beings and give her a job and he already has one so he should be happy. But the eye candy theory came up cause he was told by ppl that work there that the new hire is pretty. The manager friend never got a straight forward answer from the people that were hiring for their decision.
That manager's confidentiality skills seem very poor.
The manager who had access to her CV should not be sharing details about it to his friends.
That's fair. I agree.
But I'll bring it back to me. When I was applying to a job like 3 years ago the manager hiring me gave me no interview. I was sure that I wasn't getting the job because that was the weirdest "interview" ever. (I got asked no questions at all!) turns out I got the job. I found out later on that the manager has a soft spot for attractive women.. And no, I got paid the same as a male in that position.
My best friend got hired in a similar fashion, but she's a bartender. Looks matter in that line of work and female bartenders tend to bring in more business.
Lol not a job where looks would matter..at all. It was a hospital position actually and all he did in the interview was talk about the position and give me a tour.0 -
So one of my guy friends is starting to hate women because he thinks that everyone treats women so much better than guys. What do you guys think?
I have a couple examples that he gave me..
1. He's been going on job interviews as well, they were about to hire him until a lesser qualified piece of eye candy came into the picture and got the job instead..this happened to him twice.
2. We were at a Spanish deli and we both ordered chicken, rice, and beans. They asked me what part of the chicken I wanted and they didn't ask him. Afterwards he points it out. I told him he should've let them know..he said he was being quiet to prove a point that women are always treated better than men. (Side note a third friend who usually goes to that deli says that they treat you better of you're a woman or speak Spanish so maybe it's based on the place..)
Do you think we as a society are sexist???
We arent sexist (maybe some are, but there's a better explanation). As a society we are a bunch of hypocrites.
We tout equality and then treat each other all very unequally.0 -
The women probably got hired because they could pay them less.
Really?
Don't u have equal opportunity laws and award wages that a qualified person has to be paid the same regardless of gender?
Not in the US. Women generally get paid 77 cents to a man's dollar even if they're working the same position, pulling the same hours, outputting the same amount of work, etc. You get the idea. Men get paid more, the end. It's 2014 and yet it hasn't been changed. You'd think we were a developed nation...oh, wait.
Ok.
I am surprised at that.
Is taken for granted in Australia that the same position gets paid the same amount, regardless of gender - is illegal to do otherwise.
Yes, I know average male earnings are still higher than average female earning but this correlates to a range of factors - more women take time out from the workforce to raise children, more women work part time, more women go into lower paid industries etc.
But Women don't get paid less if they are equally qualified and work the same hours in the same job.
Our Government Accountability Office (GAO) continues to report that women still make less, even holding the same jobs (full time and year round). While the reasons you listed are accountable for 60% of the difference there is a good 40% that is unaccounted for and wholly unreasonable. It's also statically proven that the wage gap is higher for women of color (69c for African American women and 58c for Latinas/Hispanics, and again, this is for full-time, year round work). In the USA anyway-- I can't speak for other places.
There are other interesting statistics I've come across (such as that women with children get paid 2.5% less while men with children get paid 2% more (GAO) as some convoluted "boost" and that after our lovely (/sarcasm) recession men were re-employed more frequently (an increase of one million between 2011-2012, whereas the re-employment rate for women remained the same) leaving many women to resort to finding part-time work) but I'd need to check the reports/numbers again before I can officially add those.
Just to quickly add, I hear a lot of people justify the wage gap by pointing out the differences in male-dominant and female-dominant careers, but I never hear anyone mention anything about the fact that female-dominant jobs/careers are underpaid and undervalued which is a problem on its own and only contributes to the gap. Just some food for thought.
This is an interesting video on the wage gap myth, it's amazing that even Obama fell victim to this canard:
http://youtu.be/vyFjPHwF6To 0 -
They show cleavage and they're a *kitten*. They have a one-night stand and they're a slut. They have pre-marital sex and they're ruined.
In NEW YORK CITY??? I call BS.0 -
Ah, I actually meant abstinence-only education. There are no "schools" per se (which, I agree, would be laughable), but there are programs. Schools adopt abstinence-only policies instead of teaching actual sex education and from what I gather the instructors tend to tell the boys to keep it in their pants and then go on to lecture girls about their roles in society, how people will perceive them if they give it up, about their responsibilities to remain pure and keep The Penis away from them, how it's their fault if they get knocked up, etc.
I have family who live in Mississippi so this isn't just "oh, well, i've heard from somewhere...". Still, you can easily google it if you're interested. It is actually A Thing.
And I seriously need to get off this thread. Listen, can we just agree that you're not a woman and have no idea of the kind of things women are subjected to on a daily basis? The same way I'm hardly an expert in the the things men go through (though considering I compiled a list of expectations, biases, and prejudices against males I think it's safe to say that I'm at least willing to see the sexism and double-standards all around us instead of pretending it doesn't exist) you're hardly one regarding females. Sexism and misogyny exist whether you like it or even want to admit it.
Ta.
Of course they exist. I freely admit it, just not to the extent claimed, nor to I think a majority of people condone rape.
When I said in my original post "where do you live?", it does actually seem a number of our disagreements aren't being made from a gender perspective but merely a cultural one. I live somewhere where a failure to deliver a biologically accurate sex education is illegal, as are gender-scaled pay-grades, where abortion isn't frowned upon and is a society with no religious influence. Most of what you describe is not evident here. If everyone were ignorant as to their own bodies, forced to take virginity pledges and made to feel guilty over personal life choices then maybe I'd be able to relate more to what you're saying.0 -
What is going on here?0
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The women probably got hired because they could pay them less.
Really?
Don't u have equal opportunity laws and award wages that a qualified person has to be paid the same regardless of gender?
Not in the US. Women generally get paid 77 cents to a man's dollar even if they're working the same position, pulling the same hours, outputting the same amount of work, etc. You get the idea. Men get paid more, the end. It's 2014 and yet it hasn't been changed. You'd think we were a developed nation...oh, wait.
I don't want to get political or anything. And I am completely for equal pay for equal work.
However I have seen the "$.77 to a man's dollar" for "the same position," and that's not really true. The gap for "the same position" is far less than $.23 cents. The .77 was a number derived from median income amounts of men and women regardless of their position.
I just wanted to put this out there because there seems to be a prevailing notion that companies can just decide to pay a woman less, and that's not really the case.
you can read more here:
http://www.factcheck.org/2012/06/obamas-77-cent-exaggeration/
I am ready to get bashed now.
No bashing from me. I'd say you are absolutely correct. I have yet to be able to get that poster to respond to any of my questions. I'm guessing it's because she is just regurgitating what she has heard in the media.
There *are* laws in the U.S. about this and companies *have* been sued over it. Anyone who thinks that EEO laws have been violated ought to seek the advice of an attorney.0 -
This is an interesting video on the wage gap myth, it's amazing that even Obama fell victim to this canard:http://youtu.be/vyFjPHwF6To
Meh...not so amazing, imo. Just like previous administrations, pandering is rampant in this one.0 -
They show cleavage and they're a *kitten*. They have a one-night stand and they're a slut. They have pre-marital sex and they're ruined.
In NEW YORK CITY??? I call BS.
I live around NYC area as well. It depends upon which area of the city you are in.. I can see this happening in places where there are more "FOBs" or religiously predominant regions. Actually this brings a story to mind..my female friend was working in an area in Brooklyn where it is mostly Hasidic Jews. A male customer looked away from her and told her what she was wearing was inappropriate and that she was "eye-raping" him. I've never seen this woman wear anything that is too low cut in my opinion so it is that cultural difference coming into play again.0 -
That totally makes sense. But that's hardly society as a whole. Obviously fundamentalist religious people are going to be more judgmental and harsh about this kind of thing. But the general public? Not so much.They show cleavage and they're a *kitten*. They have a one-night stand and they're a slut. They have pre-marital sex and they're ruined.
In NEW YORK CITY??? I call BS.
I live around NYC area as well. It depends upon which area of the city you are in.. I can see this happening in places where there are more "FOBs" or religiously predominant regions. Actually this brings a story to mind..my female friend was working in an area in Brooklyn where it is mostly Hasidic Jews. A male customer looked away from her and told her what she was wearing was inappropriate and that she was "eye-raping" him. I've never seen this woman wear anything that is too low cut in my opinion so it is that cultural difference coming into play again.
When I got pregnant when I was 17, my friend's very religious Mormon parents, though, were some of the most supportive people around. None of my friends' parents asked them to stop being my friends and they were all wonderful to me. No treated me badly for it, either.
And I grew up in a small, rural area.0 -
The women probably got hired because they could pay them less.
Really?
Don't u have equal opportunity laws and award wages that a qualified person has to be paid the same regardless of gender?
Not in the US. Women generally get paid 77 cents to a man's dollar even if they're working the same position, pulling the same hours, outputting the same amount of work, etc. You get the idea. Men get paid more, the end. It's 2014 and yet it hasn't been changed. You'd think we were a developed nation...oh, wait.
I don't want to get political or anything. And I am completely for equal pay for equal work.
However I have seen the "$.77 to a man's dollar" for "the same position," and that's not really true. The gap for "the same position" is far less than $.23 cents. The .77 was a number derived from median income amounts of men and women regardless of their position.
I just wanted to put this out there because there seems to be a prevailing notion that companies can just decide to pay a woman less, and that's not really the case.
you can read more here:
http://www.factcheck.org/2012/06/obamas-77-cent-exaggeration/
I am ready to get bashed now.
No bashing from me. I'd say you are absolutely correct. I have yet to be able to get that poster to respond to any of my questions. I'm guessing it's because she is just regurgitating what she has heard in the media.
There *are* laws in the U.S. about this and companies *have* been sued over it. Anyone who thinks that EEO laws have been violated ought to seek the advice of an attorney.
Not in my industry. We just conducted an extensive salary survey and the results are, that for the same amount of years in industry, women make an average of 19% less money than their male counterparts. Those women with Bachelors degrees earn 34% less than men with the same degree. With higher education, the wage gap closes to an average of a 3% discrepancy.0 -
Sexism is rampant depending on the situation. Example of women unfairly having preferential treatment: Go through a divorce involving custody of a child (note: a woman can experience this as well if she played the typical male role in the marriage. ie: breadwinner, more established and/or brought more into the marriage). Example of men unfairly receiving preferential treatment: Dealing with a mechanic/contractor/plumber/electrician etc etc etc. (note: a man can experience this if he plays the typical female role of being clueless about subjects of this nature. It takes service people about 5 minutes to find out if a man is clueless and ripe for the picking).0
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This is an interesting video on the wage gap myth, it's amazing that even Obama fell victim to this canard:http://youtu.be/vyFjPHwF6To
Meh...not so amazing, imo. Just like previous administrations, pandering is rampant in this one.
Didnt watch the video, but wages are also linked to height. Usually on average, men are taller than women.
But no one ever b\tches about not getting a fair wage because they are shorter.0 -
Also age, too. (minimum wage shenanigans notwithstanding)But no one ever b\tches about not getting a fair wage because they are shorter.0 -
-we can't get drunk at bars/clubs for, again, fear of being raped
-when we are raped we're blamed for leading men on
-women in the workforce are generally considered to have "slept their way to the top"
-women in the work place are constantly coddled, underestimated, and dismissed regardless of their ability
-if a woman has sex before marriage she's ruined, not to mention, y'know, a *kitten*
-if a woman gets pregnant before marriage it's entirely her fault for not closing her legs
-women who'd rather a career than raise children are looked down upon and considered selfish
-women are constantly verbally/emotionally/physically assaulted and we're expected to grin and bear it (street/car calling, wolf whistling, butt slapping, etc)
-women are expected to marry at a certain age otherwise there's something wrong with them
-women are expected to have children otherwise there's something wrong with them
-women can't even serve their country because the level of sexism and misogyny is the army/military is atrocious
-women can't sleep around, admit to masturbating, or discuss sex without being considered a *kitten*
-abortion and birth control. enough said.
Do you live in the middle ages? The deep south? As part of a religious society? If the ones above are actually a part of day to day culture where you're from then I strongly suggest you move.
I think she lives in Jezebel.com.0 -
So one of my guy friends is starting to hate women because he thinks that everyone treats women so much better than guys. What do you guys think?
I have a couple examples that he gave me..
1. He's been going on job interviews as well, they were about to hire him until a lesser qualified piece of eye candy came into the picture and got the job instead..this happened to him twice.
2. We were at a Spanish deli and we both ordered chicken, rice, and beans. They asked me what part of the chicken I wanted and they didn't ask him. Afterwards he points it out. I told him he should've let them know..he said he was being quiet to prove a point that women are always treated better than men. (Side note a third friend who usually goes to that deli says that they treat you better of you're a woman or speak Spanish so maybe it's based on the place..)
Do you think we as a society are sexist???
1. He's been going on job interviews as well, they were about to hire him until a lesser qualified piece of eye candy came into the picture and got the job instead..this happened to him twice.
Bit of an assumption! Did he interview the 'eye candy' himself or did he just assume a nice looking girl can't possibly be very qualified.
I am sure he does experience some sort of sexism every now and again, but it sounds to me like he is reading too much into it. Something we are all culprits I am sure. The other day I thought I was being hounded by some lecherous old man while I was walking down the street, turned out I had dropped something. Certainly made an *kitten* of myself. We should never guess peoples motives without actual evidence.0 -
The Patriachy, screwing everyone over, since forever.0
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It is rare that I feel I was treated better just because I'm a woman - overall, I feel life is much more difficult because I am one. I don't get any breaks from anyone and never have - men almost never hold doors for me (other women are more likely to), I have yet to get hired for my looks (that I was aware of), and its very uncommon for the service to seem any better at a place - with, perhaps, the exception of a guy who is obviously flirting (on very rare occasions), but I see women do this for men they find attractive just as often. I hear my guy friends complain about us women getting everything and I just have to wonder what the *F* they think they are talking about - noone ever gives me anything for free, or does anything for me for free either - the only people who ever help me are close friends or family. Do men want my cramps or something? Maybe its the inherently weaker muscles they are jealous of? I know, they want to have their own boobs... If I could trade places, I would.0
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And that's just it, neither side can accurately understand how the other one perceives things.Listen, can we just agree that you're not a woman and have no idea of the kind of things women are subjected to on a daily basis? The same way I'm hardly an expert in the the things men go through (...)
This is why subjective arguments that either gender has it harder are unconvincing (not to mention that human beings in general aren't awesome at self-awareness). This is also why there are a lot of men who claim women are advantaged and a lot of women who claim men are.
There are, however, objective arguments that women have it harder (at least in some areas).0
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