Judging people and their weight

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Replies

  • Kevalicious99
    Kevalicious99 Posts: 1,131 Member
    We all have the power to do something about it, so in a lot of ways that doctor was right .. but it is not going to be popular.

    Sometimes we all need something to push us over that edge before we do something.

    Oh .. and the long list of anti-depressants, I have had a history of depression for over 30 years and I can say that those pills do have a big effect .. and can often lead to a downward spiral, exactly what they are supposed to avoid.

    But .. once again we cannot blame the pill .. it can be overcome. I continue to take an anti-depressant that is known to cause weight gain (mirtazapine) .. and I have lost over 50 lbs of body fat .. so if you so choose, we do have that power.
  • t_m01
    t_m01 Posts: 1
    Just watched a show on TV where this "Doctor" is saying that people are fat because they want to be. That is such BS. I don't know one person, including myself, who wakes up every morning and says...."Hey, I want to stuff my face and be fat, so that people can stare at me, and judge me". Some of these doctors are complete idiots. Being fat is NOT the problem with most people. It's just a symptom of the problem. Many people eat excessively because of emotional issues, depression, loneliness, to find comfort etc. It makes me angry that people are so quick to judge others without knowing their story or walking even a block in their shoes. Hate it!
  • ItsCasey
    ItsCasey Posts: 4,022 Member
    I have walked many blocks in your shoes. And I think people who are obese would rather be obese than put in the work required to get and stay fit. Actions reflect priorities.

    And I really don't know why fat people always have to offer up some reason for being fat. Who cares why? Does it matter at all? Do you get extra points if the reason you eat too much is because you're lonely? No.

    I'll tell you a sad fact ... there was a time in my life when food brought me more joy than pretty much anything else. It genuinely made me happy to go to Panda Express. At this point, I can't even freaking believe the bar was ever that low. Now don't get me wrong; I still love good food. But what I love even more is never walking out my front door feeling insecure about the way I look. I look and feel awesome every single day. There is no amount of food that can beat that. But you'll never experience that until you ditch the victim mindset and acknowledge that you absolutely have control over your weight and that you have chosen to be where you are at this moment.
  • Maleficent0241
    Maleficent0241 Posts: 386 Member
    Oh good god. There are medications which increase weight - Zyprexa is a poster child for this, though many antidepressants and antipsychotics are on the list too (some have already been named). The simple fact is they do not know WHY the meds cause weight gain beyond increase in appetite. Some are thought to reduce the metabolism. Some directly screw with blood sugar and other factors, which compound the weight loss troubles. So does the med "cause" weight gain? No, not directly, and no it does not cause someone who is in a deficit to magically gain weight.

    What it CAN do is slow the metabolism enough that a person who was previously in a deficit now isn't. That person gets to now choose between gaining weight on the med, quitting the med altogether (which may not be an immediate option), or eating ridiculously scant amounts of food. I have been on meds that slow metabolism (confirmed by RMR testing before and after). In order to MAINTAIN, I would have had to be eating around 900-1000 calories per day. To LOSE, I would have had to practically starve myself. Now, due to the medical issues I was bedridden so my numbers are lower, but it is still illustrative of the choice some people on medications have to make.

    Did the med cause us to gain directly? No, but it left us with a really crappy choice to make. Did I choose to eat 1400 calories per day and gain over a pound a week? I suppose I did, but the alternative wasn't really an option at the time.

    ETA link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1635794/
    In some patients, depression itself is associated with weight gain. This is compounded by treatment side effects, which may include a decrease in basal metabolic rate in addition to an increase in appetite and carbohydrate craving. An increase in weight is associated with type-II diabetes and possible insulin resistance.

    Appetite, no doubt. But changes in BMR too.
  • levitateme
    levitateme Posts: 999 Member
    You should have bolded this entire part but mainly this part or did you miss the increase in appetite part?
    A decrease in brain glucose will activate other portions of the brain that release proteins, which stimulate food intake. When this happens, an increase in body weight is inevitable at this point.

    And you should've read the PDF.

    Increased appetite is only ONE of the reasons some people gain weight on antidepressants. Not everyone experiences that side effect. The main reason people gain weight from them is because antidepressants slow the metabolism and inhibit specific enzymes in the liver that allow the metabolism to function correctly.

    So how much does it slow the metabolism? Less 100-200 calories a day? An immeasurable amount? "It's just slower, so people get fat."

    I've taken birth control for the past 9 years. Many people claim it "causes weight gain." Eating too much caused my weight gain and eating less caused my weight loss. Birth control was just kind of there in the background.

    People just want to place blame on something so they don't feel bad about themselves.

    I couldn't find the study I read years ago where a control group were fed monitored meals and asked to log everything they ate at the end of each day. Most of them (85% or more if I remember correctly) left things out.

    This is a news article, but it's similar in premise:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/03/why-calories-count-the-problem-with-dietary-intake-studies/254886/

    Many people eat more than they think they do, even when they are using a calorie counting system to log. We see it every single day here.
  • cingle87
    cingle87 Posts: 717 Member
    Making sure I keep upto date with this one.
  • MKEgal
    MKEgal Posts: 3,250 Member
    A lot of people don't want to be poor either, but don't lift a finger to educate themselves and invest their money wisely. If you want something badly enough then you work for it. Period.
    If they're poor, by definition they don't have money - to invest or do anything else with.
    And beyond high school, education costs money... which they don't have.
    And being smart &/or educated does not guarantee that someone will not be poor.
    Take me for example. High IQ, 3 degrees, unemployed, poor, struggling.
    I'm sure the cortisol that stress produces doesn't make it any easier to lose weight.
  • FatFreeFrolicking
    FatFreeFrolicking Posts: 4,252 Member
    You should have bolded this entire part but mainly this part or did you miss the increase in appetite part?
    A decrease in brain glucose will activate other portions of the brain that release proteins, which stimulate food intake. When this happens, an increase in body weight is inevitable at this point.

    And you should've read the PDF.

    Increased appetite is only ONE of the reasons some people gain weight on antidepressants. Not everyone experiences that side effect. The main reason people gain weight from them is because antidepressants slow the metabolism and inhibit specific enzymes in the liver that allow the metabolism to function correctly.

    So how much does it slow the metabolism? Less 100-200 calories a day? An immeasurable amount? "It's just slower, so people get fat."

    I've taken birth control for the past 9 years. Many people claim it "causes weight gain." Eating too much caused my weight gain and eating less caused my weight loss. Birth control was just kind of there in the background.

    People just want to place blame on something so they don't feel bad about themselves.

    I couldn't find the study I read years ago where a control group were fed monitored meals and asked to log everything they ate at the end of each day. Most of them (85% or more if I remember correctly) left things out.

    This is a news article, but it's similar in premise:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/03/why-calories-count-the-problem-with-dietary-intake-studies/254886/

    Many people eat more than they think they do, even when they are using a calorie counting system to log. We see it every single day here.

    So now you are accusing me of not logging everything I eat? :laugh:
  • FatFreeFrolicking
    FatFreeFrolicking Posts: 4,252 Member
    Oh good god. There are medications which increase weight - Zyprexa is a poster child for this, though many antidepressants and antipsychotics are on the list too (some have already been named). The simple fact is they do not know WHY the meds cause weight gain beyond increase in appetite. Some are thought to reduce the metabolism. Some directly screw with blood sugar and other factors, which compound the weight loss troubles. So does the med "cause" weight gain? No, not directly, and no it does not cause someone who is in a deficit to magically gain weight.

    What it CAN do is slow the metabolism enough that a person who was previously in a deficit now isn't. That person gets to now choose between gaining weight on the med, quitting the med altogether (which may not be an immediate option), or eating ridiculously scant amounts of food. I have been on meds that slow metabolism (confirmed by RMR testing before and after). In order to MAINTAIN, I would have had to be eating around 900-1000 calories per day. To LOSE, I would have had to practically starve myself. Now, due to the medical issues I was bedridden so my numbers are lower, but it is still illustrative of the choice some people on medications have to make.

    Did the med cause us to gain directly? No, but it left us with a really crappy choice to make. Did I choose to eat 1400 calories per day and gain over a pound a week? I suppose I did, but the alternative wasn't really an option at the time.

    ETA link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1635794/
    In some patients, depression itself is associated with weight gain. This is compounded by treatment side effects, which may include a decrease in basal metabolic rate in addition to an increase in appetite and carbohydrate craving. An increase in weight is associated with type-II diabetes and possible insulin resistance.

    Appetite, no doubt. But changes in BMR too.

    Read the PDF I posted and the other long post. It will explain in detail why antidepressants cause/lead to weight gain.
  • MKEgal
    MKEgal Posts: 3,250 Member
    what bothers me the most is people that have excuses....I dont have time to exercise, my back hurts. my feet hurt, I have this and that wrong with me...all bs
    Eh, wrong. Not all medical issues are BS. Some individuals actually do have exercise limitations and/or are not allowed to exercise all together.
    Medication that causes weight gain is not self-inflicted.
    Besides, exercise does little for weight loss. That's nearly all calorie control.
    To _maintain_ weight, yes, you need to exercise.

    "Most weight loss occurs because of decreased caloric intake. However, evidence shows the only way to maintain weight loss is to be engaged in regular physical activity."
    http://www.cdc.gov/healthyweight/physical_activity/index.html
  • Maleficent0241
    Maleficent0241 Posts: 386 Member
    Oh good god. There are medications which increase weight - Zyprexa is a poster child for this, though many antidepressants and antipsychotics are on the list too (some have already been named). The simple fact is they do not know WHY the meds cause weight gain beyond increase in appetite. Some are thought to reduce the metabolism. Some directly screw with blood sugar and other factors, which compound the weight loss troubles. So does the med "cause" weight gain? No, not directly, and no it does not cause someone who is in a deficit to magically gain weight.

    What it CAN do is slow the metabolism enough that a person who was previously in a deficit now isn't. That person gets to now choose between gaining weight on the med, quitting the med altogether (which may not be an immediate option), or eating ridiculously scant amounts of food. I have been on meds that slow metabolism (confirmed by RMR testing before and after). In order to MAINTAIN, I would have had to be eating around 900-1000 calories per day. To LOSE, I would have had to practically starve myself. Now, due to the medical issues I was bedridden so my numbers are lower, but it is still illustrative of the choice some people on medications have to make.

    Did the med cause us to gain directly? No, but it left us with a really crappy choice to make. Did I choose to eat 1400 calories per day and gain over a pound a week? I suppose I did, but the alternative wasn't really an option at the time.

    ETA link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1635794/
    In some patients, depression itself is associated with weight gain. This is compounded by treatment side effects, which may include a decrease in basal metabolic rate in addition to an increase in appetite and carbohydrate craving. An increase in weight is associated with type-II diabetes and possible insulin resistance.

    Appetite, no doubt. But changes in BMR too.

    Read the PDF I posted and the other long post. It will explain in detail why antidepressants cause/lead to weight gain.

    I've read it, and I hear you. I think a lot of the argument is in wording - "name one medication that causes weight gain even in a caloric deficit" (paraphrasing from the question raised by a few) Well, the answer is none technically, but rather that the medication causes a change in what that deficit is for a person, and therefore said person ceases to lose weight (or starts gaining). Even with the research done into effects on the HPA axis and all that, it is still not very well understood and it's not clear why some people experience such a dramatic gain while others don't have issues - different body chemistry, of course, but what about it that alters the severity of side effects is unclear.
  • prettyface55
    prettyface55 Posts: 508 Member
    Bump
  • FatFreeFrolicking
    FatFreeFrolicking Posts: 4,252 Member
    Oh good god. There are medications which increase weight - Zyprexa is a poster child for this, though many antidepressants and antipsychotics are on the list too (some have already been named). The simple fact is they do not know WHY the meds cause weight gain beyond increase in appetite. Some are thought to reduce the metabolism. Some directly screw with blood sugar and other factors, which compound the weight loss troubles. So does the med "cause" weight gain? No, not directly, and no it does not cause someone who is in a deficit to magically gain weight.

    What it CAN do is slow the metabolism enough that a person who was previously in a deficit now isn't. That person gets to now choose between gaining weight on the med, quitting the med altogether (which may not be an immediate option), or eating ridiculously scant amounts of food. I have been on meds that slow metabolism (confirmed by RMR testing before and after). In order to MAINTAIN, I would have had to be eating around 900-1000 calories per day. To LOSE, I would have had to practically starve myself. Now, due to the medical issues I was bedridden so my numbers are lower, but it is still illustrative of the choice some people on medications have to make.

    Did the med cause us to gain directly? No, but it left us with a really crappy choice to make. Did I choose to eat 1400 calories per day and gain over a pound a week? I suppose I did, but the alternative wasn't really an option at the time.

    ETA link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1635794/
    In some patients, depression itself is associated with weight gain. This is compounded by treatment side effects, which may include a decrease in basal metabolic rate in addition to an increase in appetite and carbohydrate craving. An increase in weight is associated with type-II diabetes and possible insulin resistance.

    Appetite, no doubt. But changes in BMR too.

    Read the PDF I posted and the other long post. It will explain in detail why antidepressants cause/lead to weight gain.

    I've read it, and I hear you. I think a lot of the argument is in wording - "name one medication that causes weight gain even in a caloric deficit" (paraphrasing from the question raised by a few) Well, the answer is none technically, but rather that the medication causes a change in what that deficit is for a person, and therefore said person ceases to lose weight (or starts gaining). Even with the research done into effects on the HPA axis and all that, it is still not very well understood and it's not clear why some people experience such a dramatic gain while others don't have issues - different body chemistry, of course, but what about it that alters the severity of side effects is unclear.

    I agree! It is not black and white. There simply isn't enough known regarding why people gain 50-100+ lbs after starting antidepressants.
  • Maleficent0241
    Maleficent0241 Posts: 386 Member
    You entire PDF said nothing about how many calories the test subjects in each group ate daily or the exercise regime. There was also no definitive statement as to why people gain weight. But you do see increased appetite.

    And if you see the section below especially the one I put in bold, you will see it recommended........caloric restriction.

    RECOMMENDATIONS FOR MANAGEMENT

    Many patients prematurely discontinue their medication as a result of increased appetite or weight gain and may fall back into depression. On the other hand, fighting weight gain once it has occurred can be very difficult, and it is advisable to consider the likelihood and potential consequences of weight gain when choosing an antidepressant.36,37
    Educating the patient about the chances of weight gain as a side effect of treatment and its management is best accomplished through a strong patient-physician alliance and is integral to positive outcome.
    Preventing weight gain in patients on antidepressants is the ideal strategy. It typically involves caloric restriction and increased caloric expenditure through aerobic exercise. 1 Patients may benefit from a nutritional consultation and participation in a low-cost commercial weight-loss program. Individuals can be asked to record weekly weights, and thus both clinician and patient can be alerted to small increases in weight before the problem becomes too difficult. Maintaining a food diary and behavioral techniques such as increasing meal frequency, smaller meals, or decreasing the pace of eating can help.

    And then what do you do when the amount of caloric restriction required is not realistic? The person has to choose between weight and treatment for whatever disorder they have. Yes, it's a choice, but a really crappy one.
  • MKEgal
    MKEgal Posts: 3,250 Member
    the simple fact that America is very accepting of obesity.
    Bologna. It's one of the last acceptable reasons to jeer at someone, discriminate against people, charge them more for clothing or seating, refuse to hire them, ask them probing questions (happened to me at a job interview)...
    Food is not the only reason people gain weight and to think that is very narrow-minded. I personally gained weight from medication
    So when you realized that taking those drugs meant your body needed less food, you chose to keep eating the same amount of food, right?
    I wish I could find the reason why I look the way I do. Wish I could find the solution.
    Change how much you eat. Weight gain comes from taking in more calories than your body burns, no matter the reason for the decrease in metabolism.
    what I did was figure out my TDEE which is like 2500 something and decided to eat below that but still somewhere where I'm not ravenously hungry all the time. MFP set the calories at 1770 and I'm eating back some of my exercise calories
    Stop eating your exercise calories.
    Find a healthy goal weight based on BMI (here's a chart: http://www.shapeup.org/bmi/bmi6.pdf ).
    Multiply that times 10 and you have your goal calories in order to lose weight. (This is what my doctor & dietician do.)
    Don't go below 1200.
    I'm honestly worried about doing any strength training because of chronic pain
    Start low & slow. Find your 1-repetition maximum and lift at maybe 30-40% of that.
    If it seems light, increase by 5 lb until you're at light effort.
    (For most people, they should be lifting at 80% of their 1RM.)
    There are a number of medical conditions that can make a person obese
    Those may alter the metabolism or hunger signals, but what causes weight gain is eating more than the body burns. If someone is on a medicine which slows metabolism or increases hunger, or has one of those diseases which alters metabolism, they need to change how they eat.
    Picking on people who gained due to drugs is no better than picking on people who lost due to drugs
    I haven't lost due to taking drugs, I've lost because the drug helped me control my appetite so I could eat a normal amount of food, plus exercising nearly every day.
    In other words, taking in fewer calories than I burned... which is what causes weight loss.
  • fattymcrunnerpants
    fattymcrunnerpants Posts: 311 Member
    the simple fact that America is very accepting of obesity.
    Bologna. It's one of the last acceptable reasons to jeer at someone, discriminate against people, charge them more for clothing or seating, refuse to hire them, ask them probing questions (happened to me at a job interview)...
    Food is not the only reason people gain weight and to think that is very narrow-minded. I personally gained weight from medication
    So when you realized that taking those drugs meant your body needed less food, you chose to keep eating the same amount of food, right?
    I wish I could find the reason why I look the way I do. Wish I could find the solution.
    Change how much you eat. Weight gain comes from taking in more calories than your body burns, no matter the reason for the decrease in metabolism.
    what I did was figure out my TDEE which is like 2500 something and decided to eat below that but still somewhere where I'm not ravenously hungry all the time. MFP set the calories at 1770 and I'm eating back some of my exercise calories
    Stop eating your exercise calories.
    Find a healthy goal weight based on BMI (here's a chart: http://www.shapeup.org/bmi/bmi6.pdf ).
    Multiply that times 10 and you have your goal calories in order to lose weight. (This is what my doctor & dietician do.)
    Don't go below 1200.
    I'm honestly worried about doing any strength training because of chronic pain
    Start low & slow. Find your 1-repetition maximum and lift at maybe 30-40% of that.
    If it seems light, increase by 5 lb until you're at light effort.
    (For most people, they should be lifting at 80% of their 1RM.)
    There are a number of medical conditions that can make a person obese
    Those may alter the metabolism or hunger signals, but what causes weight gain is eating more than the body burns. If someone is on a medicine which slows metabolism or increases hunger, or has one of those diseases which alters metabolism, they need to change how they eat.
    Picking on people who gained due to drugs is no better than picking on people who lost due to drugs
    I haven't lost due to taking drugs, I've lost because the drug helped me control my appetite so I could eat a normal amount of food, plus exercising nearly every day.
    In other words, taking in fewer calories than I burned... which is what causes weight loss.

    Yeah, I'm screwing with my diet/exercise to figure out what's going to work. I'm really trying to listen to my body, eat when I'm hungry, and plan better. I know from experience that if its too restrictive I'm not going to stick to it.

    Does pushing a 40lb toddler in a stroller uphill count as strength training? Lol
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    However, saying: Just try harder to eat less calories/exercise more and you will lose weight is way too simplistic an answer to a complicated human issue.

    For many people, you are probably right. But allowing that he or she does not have a choice, is powerless, isn't true and seems to me to be even worse, since it plays into the belief in his or her own powerlessness that is probably holding that person back (assuming that the person actually does want to make the changes necessary for weight loss--not everyone does, and IMO that's okay--that person shouldn't be "blamed" or "shamed" either, which is why the whole thing about how some fat people are "innocent" seems to me to miss the point). Better to give the tools or at least let the person know the tools are out there.

    I think your examples are interesting, and I'd say the same thing about them. It's harder for some than others, but in ALL of these cases people are making choices and would be better off if they followed the advice and, IMO, do have the power to follow the advice. Indeed, I think it's interesting you chose these examples, because while I don't actually understand getting angry at people for not being fit (what business is it of ours if the person prioritizes other things) I may be a hypocrite, because I do get angry or frustrated about claims of powerlessness about some of these other things.
    And it doesn't just apply to weight loss.
    Just try harder to spend less or bring in more income and you won't be in debt.

    Certainly many people spent more than they should and could choose to spend less.
    Just get up / leave earlier to get place on time.

    Well, yeah. I think habitually not being on time is usually a choice, one that is rather inconsiderate of others.
    Just study harder and you will get better grades.

    Again, seems like good advice. Not everyone will be able to get As, but trying and studying seems obviously worth doing and better than the alternative and it always seems to me that a lot of people do poorly in school or are ignorant as adults because they don't bother trying, even a little, which makes me impatient. Accepting this seems to encourage it, and maybe having higher standards would be better. I give a pass to some extent on what kids do, because they don't know better, but adults should.
    Just think before you speak and you won't hurt people so much.

    Again, what's wrong with this? Sure, people screw up and are imperfect, but trying to do better is within our power and likely to lead to better results than just deciding "it's how I am, can't help it."
    I came here because I decided to make changes and try to figure out how to no longer be fat. For me, I don't want to be just skinny, I want to be fit - weight will come down with that. I am right now only trying to understand how I work. How much calories I need, how much exercise I can handle right now and progressing to be fitter everyday.

    I came here for support, information, advice from others who have or still are working on losing weight and getting fitter.

    This is great. Me too. I don't perceive this discussion as slamming those who don't have it all figured out yet, but just the idea that people are basically helpless and stuff just happens to them, without them being able to do a thing about it.

    I agree with you that the side-argument seems about something else at this point.
  • MKEgal
    MKEgal Posts: 3,250 Member
    re: drugs which cause weight gain even when eating at a caloric deficit, and not because of increasing appetite
    (IOW, they break the laws of physics)
    Zoloft 1042 SSRI weight gain/loss
    Cymbalta 445 SNRI decreased appetite/weight, anorexia
    Prozac 539 SSRI nausea, anorexia, decreased appetite, taste changes
    Lexapro 481 SSRI nausea, anorexia, decreased appetite, taste changes
    Celexa 311 SSRI nausea, anorexia, decreased appetite, taste changes
    Effexor 1174 SNRI nausea, anorexia, taste changes
    Pristiq SNRI nausea, loss of appetite, weight loss
    Tofranil 628 tricyclic nausea/vomiting, taste change
    Propranolol 969 beta blocker n/v/d, stomach cramps & pain, hyper/o glycemia, weight change
    Those are page numbers in my drug book.
    So most of those (all but the last) are for treating depression, which is usually associated with weight gain - low energy, self-medicating with food.
    Most have the possible side effects of nausea, anorexia, decreased appetite, changes in taste... all of which would cause weight loss.
    So that should be a wash.
    Only the last could cause weight gain simply because of affecting blood sugar, and even then if the person is eating at a deficit there's no way they could gain weight.

    So the question remains unanswered: what medicines cause weight gain while eating at a caloric deficit?