Judging people and their weight

All of us who were morbidly obese and are now not know that we made a decision to stop medicating with food. IMHO there are two rules to wt loss. 1-love yourself unreservedly exactly how you are with all your flaws so you can have the strength to follow rule 2. When you are stressed,bored,sad,angry,broke,happy,hired,fired,pissed off, etc.....just be in that moment. Don't run to food pleasure to avoid feeling pain. When you deal with your feelings....they pass, you move on, you coped. Food becomes food,not your savior.

Oh good god. There are medications which increase weight - Zyprexa is a poster child for this, though many antidepressants and antipsychotics are on the list too (some have already been named). The simple fact is they do not know WHY the meds cause weight gain beyond increase in appetite. Some are thought to reduce the metabolism. Some directly screw with blood sugar and other factors, which compound the weight loss troubles. So does the med "cause" weight gain? No, not directly, and no it does not cause someone who is in a deficit to magically gain weight.

What it CAN do is slow the metabolism enough that a person who was previously in a deficit now isn't. That person gets to now choose between gaining weight on the med, quitting the med altogether (which may not be an immediate option), or eating ridiculously scant amounts of food. I have been on meds that slow metabolism (confirmed by RMR testing before and after). In order to MAINTAIN, I would have had to be eating around 900-1000 calories per day. To LOSE, I would have had to practically starve myself. Now, due to the medical issues I was bedridden so my numbers are lower, but it is still illustrative of the choice some people on medications have to make.

Did the med cause us to gain directly? No, but it left us with a really crappy choice to make. Did I choose to eat 1400 calories per day and gain over a pound a week? I suppose I did, but the alternative wasn't really an option at the time.

ETA link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1635794/

In some patients, depression itself is associated with weight gain. This is compounded by treatment side effects, which may include a decrease in basal metabolic rate in addition to an increase in appetite and carbohydrate craving. An increase in weight is associated with type-II diabetes and possible insulin resistance.

Appetite, no doubt. But changes in BMR too.

Read the PDF I posted and the other long post. It will explain in detail why antidepressants cause/lead to weight gain.

I've read it, and I hear you. I think a lot of the argument is in wording - "name one medication that causes weight gain even in a caloric deficit" (paraphrasing from the question raised by a few) Well, the answer is none technically,but rather that the medication causes a change in what that deficit is for a person, and therefore said person ceases to lose weight (or starts gaining). Even with the research done into effects on the HPA axis and all that, it is still not very well understood and it's not clear why some people experience such a dramatic gain while others don't have issues - different body chemistry, of course, but what about it that alters the severity of side effects is unclear.

Finally you admit that medication in itself does not cause weight gain....but not being in a calorie deficit.

If a person is taking a medication for a serious issue such as depression etc then they should be closely monitored by their doctors and when stuff like this happens medication is tweeked...to help alleviate undesirable side effects...how do I know this...been there done that.

But as said prior if people take personal responsibilty for themselves and their own body and educate themselves and ask questions etc and do what is needed then Yah them....I will do whatever I can to help them...

Otherwise I personally don't want to hear complaints from people who aren't willing to take the bull by the horns and do what they need to do or refuse to educate themselves or work with professionals to get it sorted out...ie those that wallow in self pity and cry and don't take action cause my response to them is suck it up buttercup.

I'm not sure where I said otherwise. I have said that medications cause weight gain through indirect means like decreased caloric expenditure (BMR, etc.) and increased consumption (appetite), changing someone's required level of intake. I think you have me confused with someone else. If I have said otherwise, it was poor wording on my part.

Oh good god. There are medications which increase weight - Zyprexa is a poster child for this, though many antidepressants and antipsychotics are on the list too (some have already been named). The simple fact is they do not know WHY the meds cause weight gain beyond increase in appetite. Some are thought to reduce the metabolism. Some directly screw with blood sugar and other factors, which compound the weight loss troubles. So does the med "cause" weight gain? No, not directly, and no it does not cause someone who is in a deficit to magically gain weight.

What it CAN do is slow the metabolism enough that a person who was previously in a deficit now isn't. That person gets to now choose between gaining weight on the med, quitting the med altogether (which may not be an immediate option), or eating ridiculously scant amounts of food. I have been on meds that slow metabolism (confirmed by RMR testing before and after). In order to MAINTAIN, I would have had to be eating around 900-1000 calories per day. To LOSE, I would have had to practically starve myself. Now, due to the medical issues I was bedridden so my numbers are lower, but it is still illustrative of the choice some people on medications have to make.

Did the med cause us to gain directly? No, but it left us with a really crappy choice to make. Did I choose to eat 1400 calories per day and gain over a pound a week? I suppose I did, but the alternative wasn't really an option at the time.

ETA link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1635794/

In some patients, depression itself is associated with weight gain. This is compounded by treatment side effects, which may include a decrease in basal metabolic rate in addition to an increase in appetite and carbohydrate craving. An increase in weight is associated with type-II diabetes and possible insulin resistance.

Appetite, no doubt. But changes in BMR too.

Read the PDF I posted and the other long post. It will explain in detail why antidepressants cause/lead to weight gain.

I've read it, and I hear you. I think a lot of the argument is in wording - "name one medication that causes weight gain even in a caloric deficit" (paraphrasing from the question raised by a few) Well, the answer is none technically,but rather that the medication causes a change in what that deficit is for a person, and therefore said person ceases to lose weight (or starts gaining). Even with the research done into effects on the HPA axis and all that, it is still not very well understood and it's not clear why some people experience such a dramatic gain while others don't have issues - different body chemistry, of course, but what about it that alters the severity of side effects is unclear.

Finally you admit that medication in itself does not cause weight gain....but not being in a calorie deficit.

If a person is taking a medication for a serious issue such as depression etc then they should be closely monitored by their doctors and when stuff like this happens medication is tweeked...to help alleviate undesirable side effects...how do I know this...been there done that.

But as said prior if people take personal responsibilty for themselves and their own body and educate themselves and ask questions etc and do what is needed then Yah them....I will do whatever I can to help them...

Otherwise I personally don't want to hear complaints from people who aren't willing to take the bull by the horns and do what they need to do or refuse to educate themselves or work with professionals to get it sorted out...ie those that wallow in self pity and cry and don't take action cause my response to them is suck it up buttercup.

I'm not sure where I said otherwise. I have said that medications cause weight gain through indirect means like decreased caloric expenditure (BMR, etc.) and increased consumption (appetite), changing someone's required level of intake. I think you have me confused with someone else. If I have said otherwise, it was poor wording on my part.

Honestly, she's just putting words into your mouth, to make what you said match what SHE believes because she can't fathom the fact that YES, certain medications decrease BMR to a point where it is unsafe for an individual to eat at a caloric deficit. Not only that but certain medications DO change fat oxidation, meaning a person could eat in a deficit and STILL gain weight.

At this point, I say just ignore her because she hasn't experienced it herself and is too narrow-minded to actually listen to people who deal with it every day.

Honestly, she's just putting words into your mouth, to make what you said match what SHE believes because she can't fathom the fact that YES, certain medications decrease BMR to a point where it is unsafe for an individual to eat at a caloric deficit. Not only that but certain medications DO change fat oxidation, meaning a person could eat in a deficit and STILL gain weight.

At this point, I say just ignore her because she hasn't experienced it herself and is too narrow-minded to actually listen to people who deal with it every day.

It's like those monkeys: Hearing no logic, see no logic, speak no logic.

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I really get a kick out of these so called "experts" here on MFP that claim that certain medications will cause weight gain when eating at or below maintenance level. People really believe this??? Seriously??? IMHO, it is just *yet* another excuse to justify being overweight. What the heck ever happened to personal accountability??

Like someone said earlier in this thread, most people *choose* to be overweight. If you are happy and want to be overweight then fine; just don't whine if you are trying to lose weight but can't because you have no (or very little) self control.

Just my two cents....

but at least they are trying, isnt that what its all about. Some people give up after 1 day. And also i dont agree with people choosing to be overweight. other than the ones who get paid loads of money doing things on webcams.

The choices made by people is what causes them to be overweight.

I was overweight and yo yo'd for 20 years...why? because I chose to eat a lot of food, I chose to not exercise.

When I did get on a "kick" I would choose to not continue and I chose to eat more and gain it back.

Why those choices were made are often mute...yes I suffered from depression at a point, yes I use MIrnea and Depo, Yes I had lots of stress as a single mom, working full time with no child support, yes my mother has major mental issues, yes I had an ex stalk me to the point restraining orders were requested

There was a lot going on but guess what there is still a lot going on and I choose to deal with it differently...I choose to go lift heavy stuff instead of stuffing my face...I choose to log and stay in a deficit when losing, maitenance when not...those are free choices...

I could choose to over eat (like this weekend...it's a choice I made) regardless of the why we still aren't being forced to over eat and not exercise.

AS for the trying yes I agree until they start the whining..and won't listen to anyone about what needs to be done, won't educate themselves and just "give up" because it's too hard or they are "special snowflakes" where the laws of physics and math don't apply...those are the one's I say "suck it up buttercup" to.

so when you were doing all this is it because u wanted to be bigger?

I think it's pretty apparent that her point is that she didn't *want* to be smaller bad enough to do something about it. No one wants to be fat, but most people don't want to do what it takes to not be fat, and has excuses while they are fat.

This is pretty much the thesis of this thread.

so that goes with my point about before saying i dont agree with people choosing to be overweight. but yes our actions have consequences

But if someone chooses not to complete any homework or study for the tests, knowing that he will likely fail the test as a result, isn't it fair to say that that person is choosing to fail his class, even if he doesn't want to and begs for a passing grade? It's basically the same thing.

IMO, the issue is that a lot of people who are overweight DO feel like it doesn't matter what they do, so it's important to help them realize that being overweight has actual explainable causes and ways to change it, tools they can use. They aren't powerless. This isn't about blaming, and I'm not sure why it immediately got taken that way. It's about empowering, pushing back on the idea that fat is just something that happens to people.

Sure, it probably sucks to have been thin and then gain weight for a medical reason, but that's not really the average situation (at least not the extreme effects being discussed here--having an injury or taking a medication that has some effect is probably common enough but doesn't change anything) nor do I think it's especially helpful to go on and on about how SOME people are supposedly innocent, as if others deserved to be fat or were less worthy. There are reasons why everyone makes the choices they do and in their shoes, who knows, but one of the harmful things, for our society and for fat people is that there's this belief that one just is or isn't fat. You see this with the people who come on MFP and resist common sense advice about calories and seem to think it's about finding some magic formula (eating certain combinations or at certain times only or all kinds of really complicated things that do seem like magic rituals) or avoiding the foods that just make you fat (if I'm under my calories but eat a gummi bear...) and so on. To see it as a simpler science-based thing, even if it still takes some experimentation to get it or some efforts to deal with your own compliance issues seems to me a much healthier approach than the idea that one is powerless.

(I realize you aren't arguing for powerlessness, but I'm trying to explain something I see underlying the initial comments and the discussion.)

Unfortunately what the doctor is saying is true. Being overweight or obese is self inflicted. No one is forcing someone to eat more than they should. Food to some is just as addicting as tobacco is to smokers. How many people truly feel sorry for someone who gets lung cancer after smoking for decades? Not many. How many people truly feel sorry for someone who is considered obese that dies, or contracts a related disease associated with their weight. Again not many.

Too true. I have mild chronic fatigue. I'm a carb addict. I'm tired, sometimes fight depression, and I'm often fighting my lazy other personality. I was an emotional eater as well. Some people would say those are whiny excuses. I agree. No one shoved half a pizza, a 6-pack of beer, a bag of chocolates, large fries, and sodas in my mouth. This wasn't a freak Evil-Dead-Attack-of-the-Hand phenomenon. My brain connected crappy food to my mouth with my arm quite frequently. It was all my fault. My husband made fun of me. I hated myself. And I ate it away.

Until I didn't any more. I wanted to be healthy and to lose, more than to eat all those deliciously, addictive carbs. You HAVE TO WANT IT AND GO FOR IT. Despite your handicaps and excuses (legitimate though they may be.) No one can do this for you. It's all on YOU! You could get all sad about it and depressed, or you could become empowered. I chose to feel empowered. I OWN the 30 pounds I lost. I OWN the fitness I have achieved and am still working toward. I did this all by myself. I'm strong. I'm determined, resolved, persistent.

Until a person can come to that point, to want it bad enough and be willing to make the sacrifices it takes, they will be fat. Some people can eat whatever they want. I have a best friend who is that way. But I can't. My body doesn't like carbs. I blow-up like a balloon. I've come to terms with that. It sucks to watch everybody eat sweets and pasta and chips. But it doesn't bother me. I OWN that my DNA doesn't tolerate it. I would rather be on this journey. I've cured myself of emotional eating. And overcome carb addiction. This is hard stuff. I'm not going to pretend otherwise. But everyone has the strength inside themselves to do this. They just need to find it. Sometimes it takes a little digging, therapy, or education. But everything worth doing takes effort. No one is going to do this for you. So if you want things to change, you have to make it happen.

So the doctor should have said, if he wasn't a complete TURD, that fat people aren't willing to do what it takes. They have to be willing to make the sacrifices, the hard choices, EVERY DAY. I feel for those who haven't gotten to where I am. I don't judge them. They have their own problems to overcome that weigh them down to their soul. They aren't bad people; they either feel hopeless or are unwilling to make the changes needed. They need to be shown there IS hope and how they can make it happen. Then, it is up to them to pursue it. No matter how hard; no matter how long it takes.

Weight loss is a struggle. But it's one worth enduring.

Weight loss is a struggle. But it's one worth enduring.
[/quote]

thats the quote for the day i think. :flowerforyou:

Bologna. It's one of the last acceptable reasons to jeer at someone, discriminate against people, charge them more for clothing or seating, refuse to hire them, ask them probing questions (happened to me at a job interview)...

So... would I then be correct to say that any one of the above offenses constitutes a "hate crime"?

it doesn't currently, but it should.

the fact is, humans have zero choice when it comes to the genetic hand we've been dealt. i will never be able to make permanent changes to my height, my hair color, or my eye color. we can make efforts to increase our metabolism, but that doesn't change how each of us individually deals with digestion of food. if the science of food and nutrition were simple, we wouldn't see disorders like celiac disease, type 1 diabetes, allergies, lactose intolerance, or other problems that are directly impacted by what foods we eat.

just because the elf can walk on top of the snow, does that automatically mean the hobbits and dwarf should too?

if being thin were as simple as a choice, then i'd easily choose not to eat. but our bodies require food in order to function, and that sets up a mental argument that many of us are doomed to lose because we're bombarded by so much conflicting information, and we're set up for failure because of all the silver-bullet methods being advertised.

so judging someone who's overweight, and verbally abusing them because you feel morally superior to them, really should be considered a hate crime. you cannot judge someone else by your own experiences. you cannot look at the 350lb person in the scooter at the grocery store and scorn them because they don't look like you. you can't tell someone "oh this is easy, just do what i did" because you have no concept as to what obstacles may be in their way.

weight loss and fitness is a wholly personal journey, full of pitfalls and traps and bait-and-switch tactics. each one of us has to figure out what works for us while staying sane and healthy. anyone on that journey deserves respect and admiration, not scorn.

Sometimes one could get stuck in a defeatist attitude not realizing they CAN even do something about it.

Oh good god. There are medications which increase weight - Zyprexa is a poster child for this, though many antidepressants and antipsychotics are on the list too (some have already been named). The simple fact is they do not know WHY the meds cause weight gain beyond increase in appetite. Some are thought to reduce the metabolism. Some directly screw with blood sugar and other factors, which compound the weight loss troubles. So does the med "cause" weight gain? No, not directly, and no it does not cause someone who is in a deficit to magically gain weight.

What it CAN do is slow the metabolism enough that a person who was previously in a deficit now isn't. That person gets to now choose between gaining weight on the med, quitting the med altogether (which may not be an immediate option), or eating ridiculously scant amounts of food. I have been on meds that slow metabolism (confirmed by RMR testing before and after). In order to MAINTAIN, I would have had to be eating around 900-1000 calories per day. To LOSE, I would have had to practically starve myself. Now, due to the medical issues I was bedridden so my numbers are lower, but it is still illustrative of the choice some people on medications have to make.

Did the med cause us to gain directly? No, but it left us with a really crappy choice to make. Did I choose to eat 1400 calories per day and gain over a pound a week? I suppose I did, but the alternative wasn't really an option at the time.

ETA link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1635794/

In some patients, depression itself is associated with weight gain. This is compounded by treatment side effects, which may include a decrease in basal metabolic rate in addition to an increase in appetite and carbohydrate craving. An increase in weight is associated with type-II diabetes and possible insulin resistance.

Appetite, no doubt. But changes in BMR too.

Read the PDF I posted and the other long post. It will explain in detail why antidepressants cause/lead to weight gain.

I've read it, and I hear you. I think a lot of the argument is in wording - "name one medication that causes weight gain even in a caloric deficit" (paraphrasing from the question raised by a few) Well, the answer is none technically,but rather that the medication causes a change in what that deficit is for a person, and therefore said person ceases to lose weight (or starts gaining). Even with the research done into effects on the HPA axis and all that, it is still not very well understood and it's not clear why some people experience such a dramatic gain while others don't have issues - different body chemistry, of course, but what about it that alters the severity of side effects is unclear.

Finally you admit that medication in itself does not cause weight gain....but not being in a calorie deficit.

If a person is taking a medication for a serious issue such as depression etc then they should be closely monitored by their doctors and when stuff like this happens medication is tweeked...to help alleviate undesirable side effects...how do I know this...been there done that.

But as said prior if people take personal responsibilty for themselves and their own body and educate themselves and ask questions etc and do what is needed then Yah them....I will do whatever I can to help them...

Otherwise I personally don't want to hear complaints from people who aren't willing to take the bull by the horns and do what they need to do or refuse to educate themselves or work with professionals to get it sorted out...ie those that wallow in self pity and cry and don't take action cause my response to them is suck it up buttercup.

You must've missed the part where the PDF clearly stated that the medications screw with fat oxidation which is why people put on 100+ lbs even though they are in a caloric deficit. So your whole "not being in a caloric deficit is what caused the weight gain" is inaccurate in this situation.

FFF, I might have missed that part also. I'm going to have to go back and see where it says that exactly.

Fattymc, nice line with that monkey thing. Unfortunately it seems everyone in this conversation can actually bring substance to the table in one way or another, everyone but you.

Quoting my own post.

FFF, I went back to the PDF. Please show me where I can find what you said above in bold about the 100+ lbs.

I never said the PDF said that. That's from personal experience and knowing others who have gained 100+ lbs from these medications.

I don't want to be fat. Oh, how I hate being fat. Somedays I can't look in a mirror because of it. Somedays I get anxiety about just leaving the house because of it.
But I will be the first to admit that I was once full of excuses for being fat: It's in my genes. I have emotional issues stemming from being abused as a child and learned from a very early age that food could comfort me. I work full time and have 2 small children so it's hard to find the time to exercise. And so on and so forth.
I have finally reached a place where I know now that the excuses listed above are just that: excuses. They are obstacles, yes. They are challenges, yes. But are they insurmountable? NO.
None of us WANT to be fat. But yes, if you strip it down to bare bones, I am fat because of choices I have made in my life. I see that, I admit that. It can be hard to accept, but I have, and I am grateful that I have. However that doesn't diminish those challenges I face. It doesn't make the journey to being healthy any less difficult for me.
So basically what I am saying is that I do agree with those who say being fat is a choice. But it still hurts to hear that, even though I know deep down it's true.

I never said the PDF said that. That's from personal experience and knowing others who have gained 100+ lbs from these medications.

Ah, so we're back to anecdotal bull****.

That's physically impossible to occur - if you don't take it in, you can't put it on. Period, full stop.

There is no such thing as a medication that prevents weight loss.

Did you gain 100+ lbs on antidepressants? Are you a doctor? Have you done research on how antidepressants affect fat oxidation and calorie expenditure? If not, you have no idea what you are talking about and therefore, your opinion is meaningless.

Did you gain 100+ lbs on antidepressants?

No, because I realized at +20 pounds that I needed to put the fork down sooner. As soon as I did that, not only did weight gain stop, it reversed and became weight loss. No miracle or change of medication needed.

Gaining 10-20 pounds can happen by 'mistake' to pretty much anyone - but gaining 100 pounds is a choice. If you need to find external excuses for your situation, have at it - but it's not reasonable to expect other people to buy into the fantasy.

Did you gain 100+ lbs on antidepressants?

No, because I realized at +20 pounds that I needed to put the fork down sooner. As soon as I did that, not only did weight gain stop, it reversed and became weight loss. No miracle or change of medication needed.

Gaining 10-20 pounds can happen by 'mistake' to pretty much anyone - but gaining 100 pounds is a choice. If you need to find external excuses for your situation, have at it - but it's not reasonable to expect other people to buy into the fantasy.

Too bad I was on a strict diet from a dietician and endocrinologist, eating 1200-1300 calories a day, logging religiously, and playing demanding sports. So maybe your weight gain came from stuffing your face, but mine certainly didn't.

"Possible mechanisms include blockade of histamine H1 and serotonin 2C receptors, carbohydrate craving caused by alpha-noradrenergic activity or histamine blockade, changes in the regulation of body fat stores by modulating neurotransmitter systems at the hypothalamic level, and recovery from clinical depression.2,5,9,10."

^The bolded fragment is why I put on 100lbs.