Can you really eat a burger?
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I LOVE Burgers... BUT I will only eat them at home now...or at least until i can get a whole wheat bun...0
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maillemaker wrote: »[ . . . snip . . .]
Once again, I am not finding excuses, I am presenting facts as to what causes problems with weight loss for most people, myself included. Yes, I want to lose weight, which is why I am taking weight loss drugs to mitigate the hunger problems associated with fat loss.
Knowledge is great, but knowing how to use it is critical. Even if it's true that formerly long-term obese will effectively have a lower NEAT / TDEE at the same weight than another person at that weight who has not been long-term obese, it is irrelevant to you unless and until you reach that point. Your NEAT / TDEE will be what it will be when you're at any given weight.
Only chiming in to say that if willpower over hunger is an issue for you, as it seems to be with your move to appetite suppressants, etc., then setting calorie goals based on a goal weight maintenance level, which is further reduced by your anticipated 15%-20% reduction due to long-term obesity, is one of the most self-defeating approaches I can imagine to getting down to a goal weight where you'll actually get to see what your maintenance calories are in reality.
Figure out your TDEE or NEAT, set a reasonable deficit that balances progress in weight loss (this doesn't mean you have to be dropping pounds and pounds each week) with your capability to manage that deficit, and go from there. Setting a calorie goal so low as to make adherence impossible or nearly so is basically guaranteeing failure -- you'll never get to the point of seeing what your actual NEAT / TDEE is at maintenance weight and whether or not long-term obesity has affected it in the way you suspect it will.
You, sir, are a better man than I. I was thinking this same basic thing, but you put it much nicer than I would have.0 -
I hate evangelical videos, even if the presenter is wearing a lab coat. I'm essentially a captive audience until the end, waiting for the punch line. Give me something to read and I can zip through it in no time, at my own pace. Any woo "science" however and I am out of there.
@maillemaker , you would honor me by reading a blog by a premier obesity expert here in Canada. I'd be interested in your opinion.
http://www.drsharma.ca/running-down-the-up-escalator.html
I don't like that article. Mostly because it kinda reads like a "it's not your fault, there's nothing you can do about it, here's a surgery to make it easier for you.". When you could "slow down the escalator" (burn more calories) yourself by exercising. It also doesn't talk about how, as the escalator gets faster (you lose weight and your TDEE slowly drops accordingly), you too should get more comfortable running at a steady pace (eating at a certain amount of calories).0 -
I hate evangelical videos, even if the presenter is wearing a lab coat. I'm essentially a captive audience until the end, waiting for the punch line. Give me something to read and I can zip through it in no time, at my own pace. Any woo "science" however and I am out of there.
@maillemaker , you would honor me by reading a blog by a premier obesity expert here in Canada. I'd be interested in your opinion.
http://www.drsharma.ca/running-down-the-up-escalator.html
It just says, "it's too hard, life is unfair to you, you need the surgery that I'm selling."0 -
Of course you can, if within calorie and macro goals.
I ate a 1900 cal burger for lunch last week. That's just under my daily goal, so...ate 400 cal less the day before and worked out a little extra, so I could have a small breakfast and dinner in case I got hungry. Still within my goal for the week.
Would not do that all the time!
The biggest advantage of cal counting is flexibility. Cals in vs cals out works. So long as you plan for it, why not eat what you want?0 -
stevencloser wrote: »I don't like that article. Mostly because it kinda reads like a "it's not your fault, there's nothing you can do about it, here's a surgery to make it easier for you.". When you could "slow down the escalator" (burn more calories) yourself by exercising. It also doesn't talk about how, as the escalator gets faster (you lose weight and your TDEE slowly drops accordingly), you too should get more comfortable running at a steady pace (eating at a certain amount of calories).
Dr. Sharma works in the public health care system like all Canadian doctors. His reasoning and the studies he cites are of the highest quality. He came and visited a group of us in a nutrition class when he first started here in Alberta and he spent the whole time listening to us and asking questions. He struck me as a most compassionate and understanding man. Here's someone who would not accuse me of being "lazy".
I have no illusions that to maintain my loss it will take constant vigilance.0 -
njitaliana wrote: »Sure you can have it. But, I find that the burgers at most chain restaurants (Applebees, Ruby Tuesday, Five Guys, etc) have more calories than I am allotted for the day. They have lower cal ones at fast food restaurants like McDonald's, depending on which one you get.
Plus they cost $10 a burger. For less than $10 I made 6 delicious burgers at home last night that would rival any restaurant burger. And mine (1/4 lb) was only 379 calories WITH 2 slices of bacon and almost an ounce of cheddar cheese.
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Eat a cheeseburger. Look up nutritional facts beforehand and see how you will need to adjust your other calories.
And for the other conversation happening, excuses are excuses are excuses. It takes a LOT of effort to make a habit of moving more. I started out at 262lbs, severely lacking in exercises and stuffing my face with vending machine food. This was about 7months ago. I have ALWAYS been overweight. I started walking, I had a good motivator to help me get outside and walk. I started using smaller plates, measuring in cups and tablespoons to get a general idea of how much I should be eating.
I have been losing an average of 8-10lbs a month since August. ALWAYS HAVING BEEN MORBIDLY OBESE. I do intermittant jogging now, I do intermittant stair sprinting.
A lifestyle change TAKES TIME. Gradual increase in ability only happens when you KEEP AT IT. I have my slip ups, everyone does. But I learned that that isn't a reason to say "f*** it, let's have 10 beers and an entire pile of Super Nachos" and ruin my whole week. Sometimes I lose half a pound, sometimes I lose 3lbs. I am still heavy enough where this is not unhealthy weightloss.
And for me, my bad habits are stuck with me FOR LIFE. This will be a battle even when I am at maintence weight. Because I'm addicted to stuffing myself to the brim and emotional overeating. I had an Oreo shake from Jack in the Box yesterday because I was upset that my iron was low and I couldn't donate plasma.
The battle to control my bad habits will NOT prevent me from getting down to a healthy weight. I don't care if I have to log my food for the rest of my life, I'm not staying a giant beach ball the rest of my life.0 -
maillemaker wrote: »You want me to watch the video so I can understand how people have their predetermined notion ed that they will fail validated?
I want you to watch the video to have an understanding of the how weight loss works in obese people. Why are you so resistant to learning what a scientist has to say about the subject? I suspect you will agree with much that is in the video. For example, a calorie is a calorie is a calorie. Diet composition has virtually no impact on body fat mass.
I am obese. When I started in January 25 of this year, I was 104 lbs over my goal weight of 140. Medically, at that point, I could be called "morbidly obese" because I was 100 lbs or more overweight.
But I may quit at 155, if I want to. Even with a goal of 155, I was, and am still obese.
And I just got back from a 2 mile walk/run with the dog - we did it in about 44 minutes, and I did several bursts of jogging along the way.
Dude, you can do it, you just start out small. When I first started walking the dog, I barely went 1 mile. Before spring, we'll probably be doing 2.5 miles a day several days a week. My end goal is to do 3 or 4 miles with her every day along with riding my bike.
Oh wait, I forgot I am obese, I can't do these things!
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Yep, had 1 last night with bun, tomatoes, ketchup and mustard, complete with Lays bbq chips, salad and ranch dressing (all,measured carefully of course) on the side all while not going over my daily calories *GASP*
Plan for a burger and enjoy the crap out of it. Life is not worth living if you cant enjoy things like bacon, burgers and cheesecake (all in moderation)0 -
Only chiming in to say that if willpower over hunger is an issue for you, as it seems to be with your move to appetite suppressants, etc., then setting calorie goals based on a goal weight maintenance level, which is further reduced by your anticipated 15%-20% reduction due to long-term obesity, is one of the most self-defeating approaches I can imagine to getting down to a goal weight where you'll actually get to see what your maintenance calories are in reality.
To be clear here, I am not setting my current caloric intake to be based on the hypothetical discussion of what my maintenance intake might be. That was another tangent. My current caloric intake is defined by MFP for a goal of 2 pounds per week at 1770 per day.
This has always resulted in hunger for me. Any amount of caloric restriction that results in weight loss results in hunger for me. I can always tell when I am losing weight without ever getting on the scale - I'm hungry and I'm cold.I hate evangelical videos, even if the presenter is wearing a lab coat. I'm essentially a captive audience until the end, waiting for the punch line. Give me something to read and I can zip through it in no time, at my own pace. Any woo "science" however and I am out of there.
@maillemaker , you would honor me by reading a blog by a premier obesity expert here in Canada. I'd be interested in your opinion.
http://www.drsharma.ca/running-down-the-up-escalator.html
I'm not sure what you mean by an "evangelical video". The video I linked to is a medical lecture given by a doctor to other doctors and clinical researchers. It's pretty easy to follow along in spite of the medical jargon.
But anyway the escalator analogy seems loosely correct. I'm not sure what they are meaning by describing the escalator as moving faster as you move down it.And have you even listened to the people who have lost and who are maintaining without this 10-15% reduction in calories you keep banging on about?
I hear them, but all I can deduce is that the study findings don't apply to everyone, even though they seemed to apply to everyone studied thus far. Even the scientists involved admit they cannot say that it applies to everyone. And the scientists involved admit they do not understand all the mechanisms currently involved.
All I can tell you is that based on the symptoms, I'm pretty sure that what they are describing is happening to me. Also, based on what they describe, it would be a perfectly logical explanation for why most people fail at losing weight.It also doesn't talk about how, as the escalator gets faster (you lose weight and your TDEE slowly drops accordingly), you too should get more comfortable running at a steady pace (eating at a certain amount of calories).
For at least some people, the science is saying that this is not the case. Some people never get comfortable eating the new amount of calories.You do realize that I was obese also right? For over 12 years. And I lost almost 80 lbs. So I think I kind of have an idea of how it works. Don't you think?
Have you watched the video?
How do you reconcile your situation with what is presented in the video?
Serious question.
Because in the studies I presented from Liebel and Hirsh, everyone they studied exhibited the behavior that I have spoken about.
It's entirely likely, given the number of people who fail at weight loss, that people like you are special.
Either you are a special biological case and you are not affected in the manner described in the studies I have presented or you have particularly strong willpower.
To quote Dr. Hirsh:
"So what of free will? Regardless of genes or early experiences, there are saints and heroes who can conquer eating behavior by self-imposed starvation for religious or political ends. Lesser souls may respond to injunctions for brief fasts or diets, but for the great majority of us, exercising our will is no long-term answer to the worsening problem of obesity."
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Liftng4Lis wrote: »
Your definition seems to include chicken burgers too.
2. A similar sandwich with a nonbeef filling. Often used in combination: a crab burger; a tofu burger.
non beef as in a chicken fillet?
Just a guess here but your american, I'm Australian, seems perfectly reasonable that we have different definitions for a burger.
Your definition is narrow and mine isn't.
Burger to me is less about the meat and how it is processed and more about the type of bread it is encased in.
Take one of your burgers and replace it the meat with a chicken fillet, still a burger, still a burger to just about anyone I asked here. Replace it with a veggie patty, still a burger. Replace it with a minute steak, still a burger.
NOPE, here in America, to be called a burger it must have "ground" meat or meat substitute (veggie people). What you are describing is called a sandwich.
Any one else hearing Denis Leary's Rescue Me rant about the difference between a sub, hero and grinder? It's a sandwich!0 -
Yes! You can eat whatever you want. I find when you that nice juicy fatty burger with cheese you get over your craving! You feel satisfied. If I ate some diet burger substitute I would be sad lol. Work out and then go eat your burger!0
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Now I want a double bacon cheeseburger with fries....From Cook Out. Too bad I'm not in Knoxville anymore!0
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maillemaker wrote: »[. . . snip . . .]
To be clear here, I am not setting my current caloric intake to be based on the hypothetical discussion of what my maintenance intake might be. That was another tangent. My current caloric intake is defined by MFP for a goal of 2 pounds per week at 1770 per day.
This has always resulted in hunger for me. Any amount of caloric restriction that results in weight loss results in hunger for me. I can always tell when I am losing weight without ever getting on the scale - I'm hungry and I'm cold.
[. . . snip . . .]
Hunger is something almost all of us have to deal with when restricting calories. There are a number of strategies to help mitigate this challenge (changes in diet to increase satiety without increasing total caloric intake, for example, but there are many others, including your gravitation to appetite suppressors). But occasional hunger is not necessarily something that can be eliminated.
There's no rule that you need to be at 2 lbs a week target deficit. Some people can do that and adhere to their diet plan; some can't. If 2lbs a week is too much for you to adhere to your intake goals, you'd be much better off setting a target deficit that you can meet or mostly meet, and that still results in weight loss. Why don't you add back in another 500 calories a day? You'll still be expecting 1lb per week lost, so it will take longer to reach your ultimate goal, but much better to do something you can sustain than simply setting yourself up for failure.
Based on your posts just in this thread (I don't think we've interacted in other threads) it feels like you're intensely interested in the NEAT / TDEE effects that long-term obesity may cause when one moves to maintenance. Why don't you give yourself a more realistic chance to get to that point where you're ready to try maintenance and see for yourself whether your NEAT / TDEE appears to be negatively affected by long-term obesity? Seems it would tie in nicely with your interest in that particular subject. And you'll not really know for sure how it may impact *you* until you actually get there, which you won't ever do if you set unrealistic goals that you can't possibly adhere to over the course of your efforts to lose weight and ultimately hit that maintenance point.
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maillemaker wrote: »How many people are going to eat a Wendy's single and be satisfied? 300 calorie burger at home is also very unlikely. I make burgers (albeit turkey) at home fairly regularly and by the time you add a bun and toppings....a lot of calories. And am I going to want just the burger for lunch? Nope. I don't think most people are that different.
Exactly.
There's burgers, and then there's burgers.
A burger to me is a Little Bacon Cheesburger "All The Way" from Five Guys. That's 783 calories.
Can you eat it? Of course you can. It's about half my daily allotment of calories. So yeah, you can eat it - if you want to eat nothing else for half the day.
The sad reality of weight loss is that this kind of eating that we have grown accustomed to as normal is preposterous and absurd. It's heartbreaking to realize that in the future my entire maintenance allotment of calories is going to be the equivalent of a few handfuls of nuts. A Wendy's single is going to be an extravagance.
*binks*
783 cals is half of what appears to be a fairly decent sized guy's daily allotment of calories? How the heck many pounds are you trying to lose a week?
783 cals is (slightly) under half of my daily cals and I'm a 117 lb 40 yr old woman who sits on her *kitten* all day at work - and that's if I don't exercise at all.0 -
Why don't you give yourself a more realistic chance to get to that point where you're ready to try maintenance and see for yourself whether your NEAT / TDEE appears to be negatively affected by long-term obesity? Seems it would tie in nicely with your interest in that particular subject. And you'll not really know for sure how it may impact *you* until you actually get there, which you won't ever do if you set unrealistic goals that you can't possibly adhere to over the course of your efforts to lose weight and ultimately hit that maintenance point.
This is true. Also, I know there are other studies on the topic like that one heybales used to (still does?) have on his profile and link from time to time, where people losing weight based on different deficits and with and without exercise were compared, which indicated a higher TDEE after weightloss for those with a lower deficit plus exercise than otherwise, with a strong rebound effect. Even if I didn't already know that exercise would be key for me for maintaining, that would have caused me to use exercise to help achieve my deficit, and to be cautious about the effect of a too low deficit. I did do 2 lbs/week for quite a while, but only while monitoring my overall TDEE to watch for reductions beyond what was expected by the lost lbs.
As it is, I don't know what my final maintenance level will be (I'm hoping for the best, but it is what it is), but so far at 125 it seems quite a bit higher than maillemaker's projections for himself, as I know I can lose at 1750. (I was certainly obese, also.)
My suspicion is that people don't have trouble maintaining because they have lower maintenance levels, although that may also be so. They have trouble maintaining for the same reasons they gained in the first place, and because keeping up the motivation is tough. Thus my main strategy is finding ways to make motivation easier for myself, not to convince myself I can't help it or can't do it.0 -
783 cals is half of what appears to be a fairly decent sized guy's daily allotment of calories? How the heck many pounds are you trying to lose a week?
783 cals is (slightly) under half of my daily cals and I'm a 117 lb 40 yr old woman who sits on her *kitten* all day at work - and that's if I don't exercise at all.
I am set up for 2 pounds per week weight loss and MFP has me at an allotment of 1770 calories per day. A 783 calorie hamburger is 44% of my daily allotment.
My diary is open.
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