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Low carb and vegetables
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lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »If one ate fewer veg before going low carb (and limiting veg), one ate a ridiculously poor diet and is not a good example.
Yes, lots of Americans eat a poor diet. This is not a recommendation.
Nope. It's not. That said, many folks vastly improve their diets when they begin eating low carb. And, yes, many eat more plant foods than the folks who tell them a low carb diet isn't healthy. That's part of the irony.
I just think it's weird to eat so few veg that you eat more by going low carb. Super weird.
I think you're kind of overlooking the fact that many vegetables are low carb. So when shifting to a low carb plan, you would naturally shift to low carb options.
It seems unlikely that going low carb by itself is going to lead to increasing vegetable intake, given carb limits means vegetables will push out other items people usually prefer. This doesn't mean people going low carb don't ever increase vegetables - I don't know the statistics. I would just imagine that the drive behind the increase is not that they have less carbs available to them (seems contradictory) but either they are trying to improve their health (both with increased vegetables and low carbing to reduce weight) or improve satiety.
I can tell you that I have no love for veggies, nor do I feel compelled to eat veggies for health reasons. I do it to add a little bit of variety to my meals and honestly to fit in a little bit better at the dinner table. I often eat with extended family and people tend to question why you only have one item on your plate.
That might be the case. I don't think it is indicative of the general low carb community. I also wouldn't be at all surprised if those individuals saying that end up eating more veggies than they did previously.
I do concur that from what I see, there do appear to be low carbers that take up low carb as a rational for avoiding vegetables. Which it is their body, they can do what they want, but I don't think the science backs up the notion of it being a particularly healthy WOE at that point.
I think it is indicative of the general low carb community, but maybe not the MFP low carb community, though there are some posters that don't eat veggies either.
I saw a poster brag about how as long as she took the bun off her Baconator from Wendy's, it was healthy because low carb and she could have it all the time! She continued to discuss how meat and cheese now made up almost all of her food, now. She wasn't the only one who has said this.
Most of the people in my real life who used to low carb now seem to have shifted to Paleo and they all seem to eat more veggies now than then. But, of course, the plural of anecdote is not data.
I'm personally guessing that the people who say they eat more veggies now that they low carb are forgetting the part where they're now paying a lot closer attention to their diet than they used to; this is true for me as well, even though I'm not low carb.
Do you mean that they were eating the veggies all along and didn't notice it, or that since they are paying attention to their diet, they are trying to eat healthier?
The latter - now that they're paying attention to their diet, they're trying to eat healthier.
ETA: Within the constraints of their low carb diet, which many people have pointed out can include lots of the veggies since they're both low carb and low calorie.
I've been trying to eat healthily since my teens. I even lost 20 pounds without eating as many vegetables as I should. What happened when I went on a ketogenic diet is that I allowed myself to make my vegetables more delicious by adding olive oil, cheese, cream, coconut flakes and other high fat ingredients, since I'm no longer eating several servings of grains and more sugar than I should, every day. (I'm treating veggies like food now, instead of trying to choke them down like nasty little green supplements).0 -
lithezebra wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »If one ate fewer veg before going low carb (and limiting veg), one ate a ridiculously poor diet and is not a good example.
Yes, lots of Americans eat a poor diet. This is not a recommendation.
Nope. It's not. That said, many folks vastly improve their diets when they begin eating low carb. And, yes, many eat more plant foods than the folks who tell them a low carb diet isn't healthy. That's part of the irony.
I just think it's weird to eat so few veg that you eat more by going low carb. Super weird.
I think you're kind of overlooking the fact that many vegetables are low carb. So when shifting to a low carb plan, you would naturally shift to low carb options.
It seems unlikely that going low carb by itself is going to lead to increasing vegetable intake, given carb limits means vegetables will push out other items people usually prefer. This doesn't mean people going low carb don't ever increase vegetables - I don't know the statistics. I would just imagine that the drive behind the increase is not that they have less carbs available to them (seems contradictory) but either they are trying to improve their health (both with increased vegetables and low carbing to reduce weight) or improve satiety.
I can tell you that I have no love for veggies, nor do I feel compelled to eat veggies for health reasons. I do it to add a little bit of variety to my meals and honestly to fit in a little bit better at the dinner table. I often eat with extended family and people tend to question why you only have one item on your plate.
That might be the case. I don't think it is indicative of the general low carb community. I also wouldn't be at all surprised if those individuals saying that end up eating more veggies than they did previously.
I do concur that from what I see, there do appear to be low carbers that take up low carb as a rational for avoiding vegetables. Which it is their body, they can do what they want, but I don't think the science backs up the notion of it being a particularly healthy WOE at that point.
I think it is indicative of the general low carb community, but maybe not the MFP low carb community, though there are some posters that don't eat veggies either.
I saw a poster brag about how as long as she took the bun off her Baconator from Wendy's, it was healthy because low carb and she could have it all the time! She continued to discuss how meat and cheese now made up almost all of her food, now. She wasn't the only one who has said this.
Most of the people in my real life who used to low carb now seem to have shifted to Paleo and they all seem to eat more veggies now than then. But, of course, the plural of anecdote is not data.
I'm personally guessing that the people who say they eat more veggies now that they low carb are forgetting the part where they're now paying a lot closer attention to their diet than they used to; this is true for me as well, even though I'm not low carb.
Do you mean that they were eating the veggies all along and didn't notice it, or that since they are paying attention to their diet, they are trying to eat healthier?
The latter - now that they're paying attention to their diet, they're trying to eat healthier.
ETA: Within the constraints of their low carb diet, which many people have pointed out can include lots of the veggies since they're both low carb and low calorie.
I've been trying to eat healthily since my teens. I even lost 20 pounds without eating as many vegetables as I should. What happened when I went on a ketogenic diet is that I allowed myself to make my vegetables more delicious by adding olive oil, cheese, cream, coconut flakes and other high fat ingredients, since I'm no longer eating several servings of grains and more sugar than I should, every day. (I'm treating veggies like food now, instead of trying to choke them down like nasty little green supplements).
Right. Within the constraints of a low carb diet, in which you're allowed to eat more fat, you've found a way to make veggies more palatable to you. I don't do low carb at all but I've never not allowed myself to have olive oil or cheese or any of those other things with my veggies.
I don't think we're disagreeing. Your mentality about what was healthy changed.0 -
lithezebra wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »If one ate fewer veg before going low carb (and limiting veg), one ate a ridiculously poor diet and is not a good example.
Yes, lots of Americans eat a poor diet. This is not a recommendation.
Nope. It's not. That said, many folks vastly improve their diets when they begin eating low carb. And, yes, many eat more plant foods than the folks who tell them a low carb diet isn't healthy. That's part of the irony.
I just think it's weird to eat so few veg that you eat more by going low carb. Super weird.
I think you're kind of overlooking the fact that many vegetables are low carb. So when shifting to a low carb plan, you would naturally shift to low carb options.
It seems unlikely that going low carb by itself is going to lead to increasing vegetable intake, given carb limits means vegetables will push out other items people usually prefer. This doesn't mean people going low carb don't ever increase vegetables - I don't know the statistics. I would just imagine that the drive behind the increase is not that they have less carbs available to them (seems contradictory) but either they are trying to improve their health (both with increased vegetables and low carbing to reduce weight) or improve satiety.
I can tell you that I have no love for veggies, nor do I feel compelled to eat veggies for health reasons. I do it to add a little bit of variety to my meals and honestly to fit in a little bit better at the dinner table. I often eat with extended family and people tend to question why you only have one item on your plate.
That might be the case. I don't think it is indicative of the general low carb community. I also wouldn't be at all surprised if those individuals saying that end up eating more veggies than they did previously.
I do concur that from what I see, there do appear to be low carbers that take up low carb as a rational for avoiding vegetables. Which it is their body, they can do what they want, but I don't think the science backs up the notion of it being a particularly healthy WOE at that point.
I think it is indicative of the general low carb community, but maybe not the MFP low carb community, though there are some posters that don't eat veggies either.
I saw a poster brag about how as long as she took the bun off her Baconator from Wendy's, it was healthy because low carb and she could have it all the time! She continued to discuss how meat and cheese now made up almost all of her food, now. She wasn't the only one who has said this.
Most of the people in my real life who used to low carb now seem to have shifted to Paleo and they all seem to eat more veggies now than then. But, of course, the plural of anecdote is not data.
I'm personally guessing that the people who say they eat more veggies now that they low carb are forgetting the part where they're now paying a lot closer attention to their diet than they used to; this is true for me as well, even though I'm not low carb.
Do you mean that they were eating the veggies all along and didn't notice it, or that since they are paying attention to their diet, they are trying to eat healthier?
The latter - now that they're paying attention to their diet, they're trying to eat healthier.
ETA: Within the constraints of their low carb diet, which many people have pointed out can include lots of the veggies since they're both low carb and low calorie.
I've been trying to eat healthily since my teens. I even lost 20 pounds without eating as many vegetables as I should. What happened when I went on a ketogenic diet is that I allowed myself to make my vegetables more delicious by adding olive oil, cheese, cream, coconut flakes and other high fat ingredients, since I'm no longer eating several servings of grains and more sugar than I should, every day. (I'm treating veggies like food now, instead of trying to choke them down like nasty little green supplements).
You see, that makes so much sense to me. I love butter on my steamed veggies. And yum, cheese and cream. I want to look up some low carb, high fat salad dressing recipes. It will be nice to use stuff like that without having to worry too much about the extra calories, and it satiates your hunger so much better than carbs. Especially since I'm growing a lot of my own lettuce and spinach, it will be so much easier to eat it when I can actually use dressing.0 -
lithezebra wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »If one ate fewer veg before going low carb (and limiting veg), one ate a ridiculously poor diet and is not a good example.
Yes, lots of Americans eat a poor diet. This is not a recommendation.
Nope. It's not. That said, many folks vastly improve their diets when they begin eating low carb. And, yes, many eat more plant foods than the folks who tell them a low carb diet isn't healthy. That's part of the irony.
I just think it's weird to eat so few veg that you eat more by going low carb. Super weird.
I think you're kind of overlooking the fact that many vegetables are low carb. So when shifting to a low carb plan, you would naturally shift to low carb options.
It seems unlikely that going low carb by itself is going to lead to increasing vegetable intake, given carb limits means vegetables will push out other items people usually prefer. This doesn't mean people going low carb don't ever increase vegetables - I don't know the statistics. I would just imagine that the drive behind the increase is not that they have less carbs available to them (seems contradictory) but either they are trying to improve their health (both with increased vegetables and low carbing to reduce weight) or improve satiety.
I can tell you that I have no love for veggies, nor do I feel compelled to eat veggies for health reasons. I do it to add a little bit of variety to my meals and honestly to fit in a little bit better at the dinner table. I often eat with extended family and people tend to question why you only have one item on your plate.
That might be the case. I don't think it is indicative of the general low carb community. I also wouldn't be at all surprised if those individuals saying that end up eating more veggies than they did previously.
I do concur that from what I see, there do appear to be low carbers that take up low carb as a rational for avoiding vegetables. Which it is their body, they can do what they want, but I don't think the science backs up the notion of it being a particularly healthy WOE at that point.
I think it is indicative of the general low carb community, but maybe not the MFP low carb community, though there are some posters that don't eat veggies either.
I saw a poster brag about how as long as she took the bun off her Baconator from Wendy's, it was healthy because low carb and she could have it all the time! She continued to discuss how meat and cheese now made up almost all of her food, now. She wasn't the only one who has said this.
Most of the people in my real life who used to low carb now seem to have shifted to Paleo and they all seem to eat more veggies now than then. But, of course, the plural of anecdote is not data.
I'm personally guessing that the people who say they eat more veggies now that they low carb are forgetting the part where they're now paying a lot closer attention to their diet than they used to; this is true for me as well, even though I'm not low carb.
Do you mean that they were eating the veggies all along and didn't notice it, or that since they are paying attention to their diet, they are trying to eat healthier?
The latter - now that they're paying attention to their diet, they're trying to eat healthier.
ETA: Within the constraints of their low carb diet, which many people have pointed out can include lots of the veggies since they're both low carb and low calorie.
I've been trying to eat healthily since my teens. I even lost 20 pounds without eating as many vegetables as I should. What happened when I went on a ketogenic diet is that I allowed myself to make my vegetables more delicious by adding olive oil, cheese, cream, coconut flakes and other high fat ingredients, since I'm no longer eating several servings of grains and more sugar than I should, every day. (I'm treating veggies like food now, instead of trying to choke them down like nasty little green supplements).
Right. Within the constraints of a low carb diet, in which you're allowed to eat more fat, you've found a way to make veggies more palatable to you. I don't do low carb at all but I've never not allowed myself to have olive oil or cheese or any of those other things with my veggies.
I don't think we're disagreeing. Your mentality about what was healthy changed.
I think we're disagreeing about my mentality, though we seem to agree that veggies are important and tastier with some fat. I was paying attention to my diet all along, even logging. I didn't think that eating more than moderate amounts of foods containing flour and sugar was healthy. I couldn't stop myself from craving carbs, so I ate less fat to compensate. Cooking my cauliflower in a few tablespoons of olive oil didn't meet my CICO. When I consciously decided to have fat instead of carbs, I suddenly needed ways of getting fat, preferably monounsaturated fat, that were not just adding coconut oil to my coffee or having olive oil by the spoonful. What I'm saying is that the decision to stop eating a high carb diet freed up a lot of calories to use for other things.
*Also, I had a great roasted vegetable dish in Iceland, with plenty of oily marinated goodness, came home, and started being a lot more creative with my roast veggies.0 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I think it's weird to worry abut how many veg you eat. If someone low carb eats veg, though, good for them.
Who's "worrying" about it. Some people seem to get stressed about what others eat, others are just making personal choices.
I'm a special case, but I was one of the people who "worried" about them when I tried the diet because almost everything has at least a gram or two of carbs (like tea, coffee, cheese, cream, nuts, some types of cold cuts and sausages..etc) which left me with about 10 grams or less of net carbs for vegetables. That's the amount of vegetables I'm accustomed to consuming for a single snack, let alone a full meal. No wonder I felt neurotic about having to limit my vegetables and felt hungry all the time.
Curious: how do people on low carb handle these stray carbs in stuff? Or do they tend to consume things that don't have them in order to fit in vegetables? Or was I being too obsessive counting each cup of tea (large 16 oz cup) as a gram of carbs?
Probably the latter, TBH. I wouldn't count tea or coffee not least because I can't see a reliable analysis of the beverage.
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stevencloser wrote: »
True, but the same thing could be said about a CICO model. Actually, I think you could make an argument that by eliminating some food choices, you are in effect promoting others.lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »If one ate fewer veg before going low carb (and limiting veg), one ate a ridiculously poor diet and is not a good example.
Yes, lots of Americans eat a poor diet. This is not a recommendation.
Nope. It's not. That said, many folks vastly improve their diets when they begin eating low carb. And, yes, many eat more plant foods than the folks who tell them a low carb diet isn't healthy. That's part of the irony.
I just think it's weird to eat so few veg that you eat more by going low carb. Super weird.
I agree. Yet MANY folks on here eat virtually no vegetables.
Agreed, but that's an issue with the SAD. Not a reason to promote low carb.
You would be promoting "anything that is not what you're cutting out". Which is not just vegetables but also for more than just a few people stuff like pouring coconut oil in their morning coffee and bacon with everything.
Agreed, I think.
Bacon is good, yes?
Well the saturated fat might increase the risk and rate of development of diabetes, which is what a lot of people seem to be going on low carb to try to avoid.
r = something not worth bothering about and even then measured in a high carb diet ?
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So one can eat 200 grams of veg (half of the WHO's "five a day") and take in less than 10g of carbohydrate, with a blood sugar impact equivalent to 2 grams of glucose or less. My n=1 experience of this is that a typical "meat and two veg" low carb meal accompanied by a glass of dry wine has literally zero effect on my blood sugar level measured continuously.
I propose that eating a low carbohydrate diet, even a ketogenic diet, is entirely compatible with vegetable consumption although obviously one has to avoid / limit the higher starch or sweeter root veg.
You know you're cheating with the wine, right?
No, the effect is the same with or without the wine, but I'm aware that alcohol is even higher than in the "*kitten* I need to dispose of fast" list than carbs as far as the liver is concerned.0 -
lisawinning4losing wrote: »OP mentioned sugar alcohols and net carbs.
and sugar alcohols aren't really artificial sweeteners to most people's understanding.
They only arise because labelling rules call (say) erythritol a carbohydrate but give it zero or small calorie value as it isn't digested. So there is a logic to subtracting something that will never become blood sugar or calories from the label value, although personally I would want to see testing of said foodstuff to validate that.0 -
lithezebra wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »If one ate fewer veg before going low carb (and limiting veg), one ate a ridiculously poor diet and is not a good example.
Yes, lots of Americans eat a poor diet. This is not a recommendation.
Nope. It's not. That said, many folks vastly improve their diets when they begin eating low carb. And, yes, many eat more plant foods than the folks who tell them a low carb diet isn't healthy. That's part of the irony.
I just think it's weird to eat so few veg that you eat more by going low carb. Super weird.
I think you're kind of overlooking the fact that many vegetables are low carb. So when shifting to a low carb plan, you would naturally shift to low carb options.
It seems unlikely that going low carb by itself is going to lead to increasing vegetable intake, given carb limits means vegetables will push out other items people usually prefer. This doesn't mean people going low carb don't ever increase vegetables - I don't know the statistics. I would just imagine that the drive behind the increase is not that they have less carbs available to them (seems contradictory) but either they are trying to improve their health (both with increased vegetables and low carbing to reduce weight) or improve satiety.
I can tell you that I have no love for veggies, nor do I feel compelled to eat veggies for health reasons. I do it to add a little bit of variety to my meals and honestly to fit in a little bit better at the dinner table. I often eat with extended family and people tend to question why you only have one item on your plate.
That might be the case. I don't think it is indicative of the general low carb community. I also wouldn't be at all surprised if those individuals saying that end up eating more veggies than they did previously.
I do concur that from what I see, there do appear to be low carbers that take up low carb as a rational for avoiding vegetables. Which it is their body, they can do what they want, but I don't think the science backs up the notion of it being a particularly healthy WOE at that point.
I think it is indicative of the general low carb community, but maybe not the MFP low carb community, though there are some posters that don't eat veggies either.
I saw a poster brag about how as long as she took the bun off her Baconator from Wendy's, it was healthy because low carb and she could have it all the time! She continued to discuss how meat and cheese now made up almost all of her food, now. She wasn't the only one who has said this.
Most of the people in my real life who used to low carb now seem to have shifted to Paleo and they all seem to eat more veggies now than then. But, of course, the plural of anecdote is not data.
I'm personally guessing that the people who say they eat more veggies now that they low carb are forgetting the part where they're now paying a lot closer attention to their diet than they used to; this is true for me as well, even though I'm not low carb.
Do you mean that they were eating the veggies all along and didn't notice it, or that since they are paying attention to their diet, they are trying to eat healthier?
The latter - now that they're paying attention to their diet, they're trying to eat healthier.
ETA: Within the constraints of their low carb diet, which many people have pointed out can include lots of the veggies since they're both low carb and low calorie.
I've been trying to eat healthily since my teens. I even lost 20 pounds without eating as many vegetables as I should. What happened when I went on a ketogenic diet is that I allowed myself to make my vegetables more delicious by adding olive oil, cheese, cream, coconut flakes and other high fat ingredients, since I'm no longer eating several servings of grains and more sugar than I should, every day. (I'm treating veggies like food now, instead of trying to choke them down like nasty little green supplements).
Right. Within the constraints of a low carb diet, in which you're allowed to eat more fat, you've found a way to make veggies more palatable to you. I don't do low carb at all but I've never not allowed myself to have olive oil or cheese or any of those other things with my veggies.
I don't think we're disagreeing. Your mentality about what was healthy changed.
I think we're disagreeing about my mentality, though we seem to agree that veggies are important and tastier with some fat. I was paying attention to my diet all along, even logging. I didn't think that eating more than moderate amounts of foods containing flour and sugar was healthy. I couldn't stop myself from craving carbs, so I ate less fat to compensate. Cooking my cauliflower in a few tablespoons of olive oil didn't meet my CICO. When I consciously decided to have fat instead of carbs, I suddenly needed ways of getting fat, preferably monounsaturated fat, that were not just adding coconut oil to my coffee or having olive oil by the spoonful. What I'm saying is that the decision to stop eating a high carb diet freed up a lot of calories to use for other things.
*Also, I had a great roasted vegetable dish in Iceland, with plenty of oily marinated goodness, came home, and started being a lot more creative with my roast veggies.
So, you were eating vegetables before low carb but you now eat more vegetables after low carb because you find them tastier? Is that what you're saying?0 -
So, you were eating vegetables before low carb but you now eat more vegetables after low carb because you find them tastier? Is that what you're saying?
I read it as saying that the ability to add oils or butter to the veg made them more tasty, where previously the calories of the oils/butter got in the way when carbs were on the plate.
Take away the beige stuff and there's more space on the plate and you can spend some beige calories on nice fats.
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So one can eat 200 grams of veg (half of the WHO's "five a day") and take in less than 10g of carbohydrate, with a blood sugar impact equivalent to 2 grams of glucose or less. My n=1 experience of this is that a typical "meat and two veg" low carb meal accompanied by a glass of dry wine has literally zero effect on my blood sugar level measured continuously.
I propose that eating a low carbohydrate diet, even a ketogenic diet, is entirely compatible with vegetable consumption although obviously one has to avoid / limit the higher starch or sweeter root veg.
You know you're cheating with the wine, right?
No, the effect is the same with or without the wine, but I'm aware that alcohol is even higher than in the "*kitten* I need to dispose of fast" list than carbs as far as the liver is concerned.
It is not likely the same with or without the wine. The liver has a one-track mind and prioritizes processing alcohol. While it is processing alcohol, it is NOT engaged in gluconeogenesis (turning stored glycogen into glucose) and dumping it into your bloodstream. That background level of glucose, added by your liver to keep you from having hypos when you aren't eating, vanishes temporarily.
(Here's a start for you: "In the fasting state the body has two major mechanisms for maintaining blood glucose levels. The first is the breakdown of glycogen (glycogenolysis) and the second is the production of glucose or gluconeogenesis. Glycogen is stored in the tissues particularly the liver. It serves as the first line of defence against hypoglycaemia as it is broken down into glucose and is secreted by the liver into the blood to maintain normal blood glucose levels. Glycogen stores may be depleted in someone with type 1 diabetes particularly if they have repeated episodes of hypoglycaemia. Gluconeogenesis also occurs primarily in the liver and it involves the formation of glucose from non-carbohydrate sources.
As 90-95% of alcohol is metabolised in the liver it shuts down the process of gluconeogenesis and thus the bodies second line of defence against hypoglycaemia. Therefore, alcohol tends to increase the risk of hypoglycaemia by impairing hepatic glucose release." https://www.inmo.ie/MagazineArticle/PrintArticle/11463) {In other words, alcohol drops your blood glucose level, and it is already too low you may become hypoglycemic}
I discovered it accidentally - when I had a very sweet wine that should have sent my blood glucose spiking, but lowered it instead. Twice. So I started researching to figure out what the heck was going on (and have tested it in more detail since then - normally I can tolerate ~20 carbs; with a glass of wine I can tolerate ~50).0 -
lithezebra wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »If one ate fewer veg before going low carb (and limiting veg), one ate a ridiculously poor diet and is not a good example.
Yes, lots of Americans eat a poor diet. This is not a recommendation.
Nope. It's not. That said, many folks vastly improve their diets when they begin eating low carb. And, yes, many eat more plant foods than the folks who tell them a low carb diet isn't healthy. That's part of the irony.
I just think it's weird to eat so few veg that you eat more by going low carb. Super weird.
I think you're kind of overlooking the fact that many vegetables are low carb. So when shifting to a low carb plan, you would naturally shift to low carb options.
It seems unlikely that going low carb by itself is going to lead to increasing vegetable intake, given carb limits means vegetables will push out other items people usually prefer. This doesn't mean people going low carb don't ever increase vegetables - I don't know the statistics. I would just imagine that the drive behind the increase is not that they have less carbs available to them (seems contradictory) but either they are trying to improve their health (both with increased vegetables and low carbing to reduce weight) or improve satiety.
I can tell you that I have no love for veggies, nor do I feel compelled to eat veggies for health reasons. I do it to add a little bit of variety to my meals and honestly to fit in a little bit better at the dinner table. I often eat with extended family and people tend to question why you only have one item on your plate.
That might be the case. I don't think it is indicative of the general low carb community. I also wouldn't be at all surprised if those individuals saying that end up eating more veggies than they did previously.
I do concur that from what I see, there do appear to be low carbers that take up low carb as a rational for avoiding vegetables. Which it is their body, they can do what they want, but I don't think the science backs up the notion of it being a particularly healthy WOE at that point.
I think it is indicative of the general low carb community, but maybe not the MFP low carb community, though there are some posters that don't eat veggies either.
I saw a poster brag about how as long as she took the bun off her Baconator from Wendy's, it was healthy because low carb and she could have it all the time! She continued to discuss how meat and cheese now made up almost all of her food, now. She wasn't the only one who has said this.
Most of the people in my real life who used to low carb now seem to have shifted to Paleo and they all seem to eat more veggies now than then. But, of course, the plural of anecdote is not data.
I'm personally guessing that the people who say they eat more veggies now that they low carb are forgetting the part where they're now paying a lot closer attention to their diet than they used to; this is true for me as well, even though I'm not low carb.
Do you mean that they were eating the veggies all along and didn't notice it, or that since they are paying attention to their diet, they are trying to eat healthier?
The latter - now that they're paying attention to their diet, they're trying to eat healthier.
ETA: Within the constraints of their low carb diet, which many people have pointed out can include lots of the veggies since they're both low carb and low calorie.
I've been trying to eat healthily since my teens. I even lost 20 pounds without eating as many vegetables as I should. What happened when I went on a ketogenic diet is that I allowed myself to make my vegetables more delicious by adding olive oil, cheese, cream, coconut flakes and other high fat ingredients, since I'm no longer eating several servings of grains and more sugar than I should, every day. (I'm treating veggies like food now, instead of trying to choke them down like nasty little green supplements).
Right. Within the constraints of a low carb diet, in which you're allowed to eat more fat, you've found a way to make veggies more palatable to you. I don't do low carb at all but I've never not allowed myself to have olive oil or cheese or any of those other things with my veggies.
I don't think we're disagreeing. Your mentality about what was healthy changed.
I think we're disagreeing about my mentality, though we seem to agree that veggies are important and tastier with some fat. I was paying attention to my diet all along, even logging. I didn't think that eating more than moderate amounts of foods containing flour and sugar was healthy. I couldn't stop myself from craving carbs, so I ate less fat to compensate. Cooking my cauliflower in a few tablespoons of olive oil didn't meet my CICO. When I consciously decided to have fat instead of carbs, I suddenly needed ways of getting fat, preferably monounsaturated fat, that were not just adding coconut oil to my coffee or having olive oil by the spoonful. What I'm saying is that the decision to stop eating a high carb diet freed up a lot of calories to use for other things.
*Also, I had a great roasted vegetable dish in Iceland, with plenty of oily marinated goodness, came home, and started being a lot more creative with my roast veggies.
So, you were eating vegetables before low carb but you now eat more vegetables after low carb because you find them tastier? Is that what you're saying?
I was buying vegetables before low carb, and not eating most of them, because I'd run out of calories and not want low fat vegetables or salad with vinegar. Now I'm buying a couple pounds of veggies a day, cooking them the way I like them, and eating them first.
For example, today I'm having two servings of cauliflower roasted in olive oil with a little parmesan, asparagus roasted in olive oil, half an avocado, and a large serving of stew that is about 1/3 meat and 2/3 vegetables. (And my diary is open).0 -
So one can eat 200 grams of veg (half of the WHO's "five a day") and take in less than 10g of carbohydrate, with a blood sugar impact equivalent to 2 grams of glucose or less. My n=1 experience of this is that a typical "meat and two veg" low carb meal accompanied by a glass of dry wine has literally zero effect on my blood sugar level measured continuously.
I propose that eating a low carbohydrate diet, even a ketogenic diet, is entirely compatible with vegetable consumption although obviously one has to avoid / limit the higher starch or sweeter root veg.
You know you're cheating with the wine, right?
No, the effect is the same with or without the wine, but I'm aware that alcohol is even higher than in the "*kitten* I need to dispose of fast" list than carbs as far as the liver is concerned.
It is not likely the same with or without the wine. The liver has a one-track mind and prioritizes processing alcohol. While it is processing alcohol, it is NOT engaged in gluconeogenesis (turning stored glycogen into glucose) and dumping it into your bloodstream. That background level of glucose, added by your liver to keep you from having hypos when you aren't eating, vanishes temporarily.
(Here's a start for you: "In the fasting state the body has two major mechanisms for maintaining blood glucose levels. The first is the breakdown of glycogen (glycogenolysis) and the second is the production of glucose or gluconeogenesis. Glycogen is stored in the tissues particularly the liver. It serves as the first line of defence against hypoglycaemia as it is broken down into glucose and is secreted by the liver into the blood to maintain normal blood glucose levels. Glycogen stores may be depleted in someone with type 1 diabetes particularly if they have repeated episodes of hypoglycaemia. Gluconeogenesis also occurs primarily in the liver and it involves the formation of glucose from non-carbohydrate sources.
As 90-95% of alcohol is metabolised in the liver it shuts down the process of gluconeogenesis and thus the bodies second line of defence against hypoglycaemia. Therefore, alcohol tends to increase the risk of hypoglycaemia by impairing hepatic glucose release." https://www.inmo.ie/MagazineArticle/PrintArticle/11463) {In other words, alcohol drops your blood glucose level, and it is already too low you may become hypoglycemic}
I discovered it accidentally - when I had a very sweet wine that should have sent my blood glucose spiking, but lowered it instead. Twice. So I started researching to figure out what the heck was going on (and have tested it in more detail since then - normally I can tolerate ~20 carbs; with a glass of wine I can tolerate ~50).
That's fascinating. What exactly happens to the carbs, though? Do you think it may cause a delayed sudden response or is the process simply slowed down and stretched out to where it causes little response?0 -
lithezebra wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »If one ate fewer veg before going low carb (and limiting veg), one ate a ridiculously poor diet and is not a good example.
Yes, lots of Americans eat a poor diet. This is not a recommendation.
Nope. It's not. That said, many folks vastly improve their diets when they begin eating low carb. And, yes, many eat more plant foods than the folks who tell them a low carb diet isn't healthy. That's part of the irony.
I just think it's weird to eat so few veg that you eat more by going low carb. Super weird.
I think you're kind of overlooking the fact that many vegetables are low carb. So when shifting to a low carb plan, you would naturally shift to low carb options.
It seems unlikely that going low carb by itself is going to lead to increasing vegetable intake, given carb limits means vegetables will push out other items people usually prefer. This doesn't mean people going low carb don't ever increase vegetables - I don't know the statistics. I would just imagine that the drive behind the increase is not that they have less carbs available to them (seems contradictory) but either they are trying to improve their health (both with increased vegetables and low carbing to reduce weight) or improve satiety.
I can tell you that I have no love for veggies, nor do I feel compelled to eat veggies for health reasons. I do it to add a little bit of variety to my meals and honestly to fit in a little bit better at the dinner table. I often eat with extended family and people tend to question why you only have one item on your plate.
That might be the case. I don't think it is indicative of the general low carb community. I also wouldn't be at all surprised if those individuals saying that end up eating more veggies than they did previously.
I do concur that from what I see, there do appear to be low carbers that take up low carb as a rational for avoiding vegetables. Which it is their body, they can do what they want, but I don't think the science backs up the notion of it being a particularly healthy WOE at that point.
I think it is indicative of the general low carb community, but maybe not the MFP low carb community, though there are some posters that don't eat veggies either.
I saw a poster brag about how as long as she took the bun off her Baconator from Wendy's, it was healthy because low carb and she could have it all the time! She continued to discuss how meat and cheese now made up almost all of her food, now. She wasn't the only one who has said this.
Most of the people in my real life who used to low carb now seem to have shifted to Paleo and they all seem to eat more veggies now than then. But, of course, the plural of anecdote is not data.
I'm personally guessing that the people who say they eat more veggies now that they low carb are forgetting the part where they're now paying a lot closer attention to their diet than they used to; this is true for me as well, even though I'm not low carb.
Do you mean that they were eating the veggies all along and didn't notice it, or that since they are paying attention to their diet, they are trying to eat healthier?
The latter - now that they're paying attention to their diet, they're trying to eat healthier.
ETA: Within the constraints of their low carb diet, which many people have pointed out can include lots of the veggies since they're both low carb and low calorie.
I've been trying to eat healthily since my teens. I even lost 20 pounds without eating as many vegetables as I should. What happened when I went on a ketogenic diet is that I allowed myself to make my vegetables more delicious by adding olive oil, cheese, cream, coconut flakes and other high fat ingredients, since I'm no longer eating several servings of grains and more sugar than I should, every day. (I'm treating veggies like food now, instead of trying to choke them down like nasty little green supplements).
Right. Within the constraints of a low carb diet, in which you're allowed to eat more fat, you've found a way to make veggies more palatable to you. I don't do low carb at all but I've never not allowed myself to have olive oil or cheese or any of those other things with my veggies.
I don't think we're disagreeing. Your mentality about what was healthy changed.
I think we're disagreeing about my mentality, though we seem to agree that veggies are important and tastier with some fat. I was paying attention to my diet all along, even logging. I didn't think that eating more than moderate amounts of foods containing flour and sugar was healthy. I couldn't stop myself from craving carbs, so I ate less fat to compensate. Cooking my cauliflower in a few tablespoons of olive oil didn't meet my CICO. When I consciously decided to have fat instead of carbs, I suddenly needed ways of getting fat, preferably monounsaturated fat, that were not just adding coconut oil to my coffee or having olive oil by the spoonful. What I'm saying is that the decision to stop eating a high carb diet freed up a lot of calories to use for other things.
*Also, I had a great roasted vegetable dish in Iceland, with plenty of oily marinated goodness, came home, and started being a lot more creative with my roast veggies.
So, you were eating vegetables before low carb but you now eat more vegetables after low carb because you find them tastier? Is that what you're saying?
I was buying vegetables before low carb, and not eating most of them, because I'd run out of calories and not want low fat vegetables or salad with vinegar. Now I'm buying a couple pounds of veggies a day, cooking them the way I like them, and eating them first.
For example, today I'm having two servings of cauliflower roasted in olive oil with a little parmesan, asparagus roasted in olive oil, half an avocado, and a large serving of stew that is about 1/3 meat and 2/3 vegetables. (And my diary is open).
I think we are po-ta-to, pot-ah-to ing still, but that definitely sounds yummy!0 -
So, you were eating vegetables before low carb but you now eat more vegetables after low carb because you find them tastier? Is that what you're saying?
I read it as saying that the ability to add oils or butter to the veg made them more tasty, where previously the calories of the oils/butter got in the way when carbs were on the plate.
Take away the beige stuff and there's more space on the plate and you can spend some beige calories on nice fats.
I missed your response earlier. Exactly. You said it much more concisely than I did!0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »
True, but the same thing could be said about a CICO model. Actually, I think you could make an argument that by eliminating some food choices, you are in effect promoting others.lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »If one ate fewer veg before going low carb (and limiting veg), one ate a ridiculously poor diet and is not a good example.
Yes, lots of Americans eat a poor diet. This is not a recommendation.
Nope. It's not. That said, many folks vastly improve their diets when they begin eating low carb. And, yes, many eat more plant foods than the folks who tell them a low carb diet isn't healthy. That's part of the irony.
I just think it's weird to eat so few veg that you eat more by going low carb. Super weird.
I agree. Yet MANY folks on here eat virtually no vegetables.
Agreed, but that's an issue with the SAD. Not a reason to promote low carb.
Nope. I eat lots of veg on normal carbs. If people didn't it is because they ate a bad diet.
And I eat a lot more veggies on low carb. If other low carb dieters do not, it is a matter of their personal choice.
It's weird to increase consumption of foods that are mostly carbs on a low carb diet. Presumably due to eating a poor diet before.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »
True, but the same thing could be said about a CICO model. Actually, I think you could make an argument that by eliminating some food choices, you are in effect promoting others.lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »If one ate fewer veg before going low carb (and limiting veg), one ate a ridiculously poor diet and is not a good example.
Yes, lots of Americans eat a poor diet. This is not a recommendation.
Nope. It's not. That said, many folks vastly improve their diets when they begin eating low carb. And, yes, many eat more plant foods than the folks who tell them a low carb diet isn't healthy. That's part of the irony.
I just think it's weird to eat so few veg that you eat more by going low carb. Super weird.
I agree. Yet MANY folks on here eat virtually no vegetables.
Agreed, but that's an issue with the SAD. Not a reason to promote low carb.
You would be promoting "anything that is not what you're cutting out". Which is not just vegetables but also for more than just a few people stuff like pouring coconut oil in their morning coffee and bacon with everything.
Agreed, I think.
Bacon is good, yes?
Bacon is okay but not particularly healthy.
0 -
Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »If one ate fewer veg before going low carb (and limiting veg), one ate a ridiculously poor diet and is not a good example.
Yes, lots of Americans eat a poor diet. This is not a recommendation.
Nope. It's not. That said, many folks vastly improve their diets when they begin eating low carb. And, yes, many eat more plant foods than the folks who tell them a low carb diet isn't healthy. That's part of the irony.
I just think it's weird to eat so few veg that you eat more by going low carb. Super weird.
I agree. Yet MANY folks on here eat virtually no vegetables.
Agreed, but that's an issue with the SAD. Not a reason to promote low carb.
Agreed. I don't think I've ever seen it as a reason to promote low carb. Rather, I've seen it as a surprise result of going low carb for individuals.
If someone eats so few veg that one increases by going low carb one is not health conscious and has a terrible diet.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »
True, but the same thing could be said about a CICO model. Actually, I think you could make an argument that by eliminating some food choices, you are in effect promoting others.lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »If one ate fewer veg before going low carb (and limiting veg), one ate a ridiculously poor diet and is not a good example.
Yes, lots of Americans eat a poor diet. This is not a recommendation.
Nope. It's not. That said, many folks vastly improve their diets when they begin eating low carb. And, yes, many eat more plant foods than the folks who tell them a low carb diet isn't healthy. That's part of the irony.
I just think it's weird to eat so few veg that you eat more by going low carb. Super weird.
I agree. Yet MANY folks on here eat virtually no vegetables.
Agreed, but that's an issue with the SAD. Not a reason to promote low carb.
You would be promoting "anything that is not what you're cutting out". Which is not just vegetables but also for more than just a few people stuff like pouring coconut oil in their morning coffee and bacon with everything.
Agreed, I think.
Bacon is good, yes?
Bacon is okay but not particularly healthy.
Blasphemy!
But seriously, to more adequately address @stevencloser 's comment. Yes, by removing one of the options, you essentially increase the probability of the remaining options becoming the chosen food for a given meal. Of course, someone who is particularly adverse to veggies might still choose to abstain from them, but others who are veggie-agnostic (you know what I mean) are more likely to make use of that remaining option rather than abstaining from them unnecessarily.
ETA: And I also agree that someone with a particular fondness for other non-excluded foods would not be specifically limited by the parameters of most low carb diets from eating them in excess (although most recommend that you can eat as much as you want and not necessarily as much as you can).0 -
What is the standard veg consumption to take your diet from "terrible" to "acceptable"?lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »If one ate fewer veg before going low carb (and limiting veg), one ate a ridiculously poor diet and is not a good example.
Yes, lots of Americans eat a poor diet. This is not a recommendation.
Nope. It's not. That said, many folks vastly improve their diets when they begin eating low carb. And, yes, many eat more plant foods than the folks who tell them a low carb diet isn't healthy. That's part of the irony.
I just think it's weird to eat so few veg that you eat more by going low carb. Super weird.
I agree. Yet MANY folks on here eat virtually no vegetables.
Agreed, but that's an issue with the SAD. Not a reason to promote low carb.
Agreed. I don't think I've ever seen it as a reason to promote low carb. Rather, I've seen it as a surprise result of going low carb for individuals.
If someone eats so few veg that one increases by going low carb one is not health conscious and has a terrible diet.
0
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