Obesity Journal study: It's not just CICO

FunkyTobias wrote: »

Crisseyda wrote: »

psulemon wrote: »

Crisseyda wrote: »

psulemon wrote: »

Crisseyda wrote: »

Ah, ok. "a small subset of people struggle with excessive insulin production," and meanwhile half the US is either diabetic or prediabetic.

"you can get fat even with lots of foods that dont drive insulin" Of course you can! It's just not as easy, quick, or enjoyable. Most people are not getting fat and IR because they are overeating whole foods.

Well, actually, it's not half. Potentially, about 1 out of 3 have diabetes. Of which, 9.3% are confirmed, and the rest are undiagnosed, which means it's estimated based on some population survey. Also, this takes into consideration that the US reduced the standard for what they consider prediabetic.

http://www.cdc.gov/diabetes/data/statistics/2014statisticsreport.html


You are also failing to recognize that you can have a low to moderate fat diet with all whole foods, just like you can have a low carb diet or even keto full of ultra processed foods. Meaning, when dieting or trying to live a healthy life, food quality is important.

No, you are pigeonholing me--just like you did by bringing in Taubes and the carbohydrate-insulin hypothesis. Any diet with all whole foods is going to have protective and satiating elements, such as fiber, which will mitigate the insulin response of those foods. Also, I never said insulin was the ONLY hormone, just the most prevailing one.

And excuse me, but even 1 in 3 does not sound like a "small subset."

Well when 27.8% of that 1/3 is undiagnosed (essentially 3x the confirmed number) you would need to know what are their assumptions. Last I recall, it was a survey of 100 people, but I could be a bit off.

And I am not pigeonholing. You are presenting observable data to support the claim that it violates CICO. There is no supporting scientific data outside of, "if you inject insulin into a person who doesn't have an issue, that it will cause weight gain". That doesn't support his hypothesis. And it fails just as much as Taubes's hypothesis.

And as an aside, non natural body builders will inject insulin to prolong MPS and stimulate muscle growth.

<-- So not too surprised that overloading a person with insulin is going to cause weight gain. But that doesn't mean it's conclusive to support that insulin causes weight gain.

@psulemon

From one of the biggest manufacturers of insulin, Novo Nordisk. Even they don't deny what every clinician already knows: Insulin causes weight gain. Check out their super helpful tips:

Does Insulin Cause Weight Gain?
People who start insulin often put on weight,2 but the amount of weight gain differs from person to person.3 Some people don't put on any weight at all.

Weight Gain and Insulin
When you don't have enough insulin, extra blood sugar is removed from your body through your urine. Taking insulin helps your body to naturally store the extra sugar as fat, so you might put on weight even if you are eating the same amount of food as you did before. This is why it's important to stay active.
Another reason some people gain weight is that they snack more to avoid low blood sugar levels.

Avoiding Weight Gain with Insulin
Hear are some tips for minimizing weight gain:
Eat healthy
Be active
Monitor your weight and adjust your eating and exercise
Monitor your blood sugar so that you don't have to snack
Never skip an injection. Skipping your insulin won't help you lose weight, and it could cause you to have high blood glucose levels. And, don't try to adjust the dose of insulin on your own. Always talk to your diabetes care team if you have any concerns about your insulin does.

http://www.novonordisk.com/patients/diabetes-care/managing-diabetes/medication/insulins/advance_insulin_understanding.html

Thank you, Novo Nordisk, for these "advanced insulin understandings." [I did not fix their typos].

Believes the insulin company when it supports her views

Crisseyda wrote: »

I also can't help but share all their detailed nutrition advice. (It's just your basic low fat, calorie-restricted, CICO-based approach, which has been tried-and-proven-false for decades.) Oh! And they also say make sure you space your eating throughout the day (so you can keep stimulating your insulin response) and don't skip meals (i.e., intermittent fasting is a horrible idea).

Healthy tips

Healthy eating isn't that tough. It's all about eating balanced portions and a wide variety. You don't have to change everything at once. Just keep making small changes over time.

Eat a wide variety of healthy foods
Balance the number of calories you eat with your activity level
Choose foods rich in whole grains, vegetables, fruits and fat-free/low-fat milk products
Eat lean meats (such as poultry and fish) and beans for protein
Limit your intake of saturated fats, trans fats and cholesterol
Limit your intake of salt
Cut down on added sugars - that includes regular soft drinks which are high in calories
Keep to sensible amounts of alcohol
Have a proper breakfast every morning to stimulate your metabolism
Space your eating throughout the day
Don't skip meals
Try picking a few small changes that are important to you. Pick ones you feel confident that you can achieve and focus on those.

As you make these changes a part of the normal way you eat, you'll find that you're ready to take on something new.

Don't expect to be perfect - it's nearly impossible to eat right all of the time. It's okay to have a treat every now and then as long you stay motivated and on track most of the time.

http://www.novonordisk.com/patients/diabetes-care/managing-diabetes/diet/healthyTips.html

But I'm sure we can trust nutrition advice from an insulin company--no conflicts of interest there, right? I do commend them for saying avoid added sugars, but the reason behind it is simply because they are "empty calories." Smh. And lumping trans fats with saturated fats? A very smooth move there.

Bur when the company conflicts with her dogma?


Can you say cognitive dissonance?

@FunkyTobias
I think you missed my sarcasm in calling them "super helpful" tips--by which I meant "not helpful in the least." Both sections from the site are mostly BS, IMO.

Crisseyda wrote: »

The diabetes epidemic is nothing but good news to the only 3 companies in the US that produce insulin: Eli Lilly, Sanofi and Novo Nordisk. With that kind of money on the line, do you think they would be careless enough to share nutrition advice that actually enabled people to prevent their potential or stop their current use of insulin?

LOL No. Big pharma likes non-compliant patients.

missh1967 wrote: »

Crisseyda wrote: »

The diabetes epidemic is nothing but good news to the only 3 companies in the US that produce insulin: Eli Lilly, Sanofi and Novo Nordisk. With that kind of money on the line, do you think they would be careless enough to share nutrition advice that actually enabled people to prevent their potential or stop their current use of insulin?

LOL No. Big pharma likes non-compliant patients.

You better believe it! XD

missh1967 wrote: »

Crisseyda wrote: »

missh1967 wrote: »

Crisseyda wrote: »

The diabetes epidemic is nothing but good news to the only 3 companies in the US that produce insulin: Eli Lilly, Sanofi and Novo Nordisk. With that kind of money on the line, do you think they would be careless enough to share nutrition advice that actually enabled people to prevent their potential or stop their current use of insulin?

LOL No. Big pharma likes non-compliant patients.

You better believe it! XD

My point is that you're laying a whole lotta s.h.i.t. at the feet of "big pharma," but as a nurse, I can tell you that so many people can't lay off the damn ice cream and chips and incorporate a friggin' salad every so often to drop some tonnage and reverse or at least diminish some of their health problems. You are outside your mind if you think those companies are fostering disease. They just happen to be profiting because fat bas.tards can't shut their pie holes.

Job security.

Yup, I'm a nurse too. I see you've bought into the same lie as many other healthcare professionals: blame the patient.

I'm past that now, but I understand. I used to have the same damning perspective.

EDIT: in case anyone was wondering, this person poignantly expresses exactly how most doctors and nurses judge you for being sick and obese.

Galadrial60 wrote: »

Oh honey...wrong forum. People who never had metabolism issues DON'T BELIEVE it. I read the same article you did. I found it fascinating. I also work with special needs adults in group home settings. We give our clients low fat, healthy balanced meals. They have no access to food unless we serve it. Yet 6 adults are all over the charts in terms of weight. They are served identical portions...but the ones who are inclined to thin tend to stay that way...and the ones who go to heavy don't lose any weight. They also have about the same amount of exercise in a day. You can say it isn't scientific...but it's hard to ignore a year of observation. Metabolism is real.

So special needs usually means there's issues with their health to begin with. Yes, metabolism is real, but it STILL relies on CICO for weight maintenance/gain/loss. It may be harder for someone with health issues, but it doesn't negate the formula.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

stevencloser wrote: »

Crisseyda wrote: »

stevencloser wrote: »

So, what of the things are BS IYO? Eating amounts of food according to your activity level?
A varied diet of healthy foods?
Lots of vegetables and fruit?
Limiting trans fats and sat fats?
Not too much salt?
Reducing added sugars?
Sensible amounts of alcohol?
Making sustainable changes?

Man, just look at all that crap.

It's funny how you left out certian items that even you know are indefensible garbage.

The only thing wrong is that breakfast stimulates the metabolism.
The things I listed are unquestionably true, the other things I left out are a matter of preference.
So again, since you said it's mostly BS. What is BS of all those things? Because there's literally just 1 thing in the list that is incorrect.
In before "eat all the saturated fat your body can hold because it's gud for you"

I don't even know where to start with that horrible advice. You already claim it's "unquestionably true," but hopefully my response can help someone else.

I feel I've thoroughly explained how excess insulin promotes both diabetes and obesity. It's a direct causal effect. Give people insulin: they get hungry, they gain weight, they develop insulin resistance. Completely take away insulin (as in the case of type 1 diabetes, for example): you get extreme weight loss.

If the body responded to all foods exactly the same, balancing calories with activity level would be all you need to know for weight loss--yet, that diet seems to fail time and time again (as evidenced by the origin of this thread). However, the body doesn't respond the same to all foods. Different foods promote different hormonal responses. Additionally, some foods are more nutrient dense and satiating, while other are not.

There is nothing in whole grains, for example, that you can't get from other foods with a whole lot less carbohydrate and calorie density. Not to mention, the vast majority of "whole grains" available on the market are nothing more than pulverized flour, which has separated the fiber from the starch, negating its benefit, causing large spikes in both blood glucose and insulin.

If people are trying to prevent or treat type 2 diabetes, the goal is to lower insulin levels. A low fat diet is simply a terrible idea. Fats stimulate very little insulin response, and they are satiating. They are an excellent source of calories for healing insulin resistance and promoting weight loss. Fats from nature are completely benign, and there are mountains of evidence available to question and disprove the tired diet-heart hypothesis (dietary cholesterol causes heart disease). Take the Framingham Study, for example. Once they went back and looked at the data, separating man-made fats from natural fats: margarine was linked to heart disease, while butter was linked to heart health. Clearly made-made fats with excess omega 6s and trans fats are toxic. The big picture here is that not all foods are created equal, and when you start looking at the details, foods in their natural state do the best job of keeping the heart healthy and keeping insulin levels normal.

Additionally, grazing throughout the day is another terrible idea. You're just continuously spiking insulin levels, protecting that stored fat from being used for energy. Avoiding snacking, skipping meals, and intermittent fasting are extremely powerful techniques for healing insulin resistance, allowing insulin levels to drop, and letting the body shift toward using stored glycogen and fat for energy.

The advice sucks, IMO. But what really sucks is how many people are struggling, hungry all the time, eating processed garbage that they think is "healthy," white-knuckling their way to weight loss, killing their metabolisms, and being blamed by everyone around them (including the healthcare professionals) for their failure.

Here's a literature review for you from Diabesity on effective treatments for hyperinsulinemia and the related metabolic diseases: http://diabesity.ejournals.ca/index.php/diabesity/article/viewFile/21/65
It comes down to exercise, carbohydrate restriction, and fasting. There ya go!