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Hot topics! Sugar in fruit
Replies
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ForecasterJason wrote: »I didn't say anything about solving all of life's problems. Autoimmune disorders and allergies can be indirectly related to sugar in fruit. A diet high in sugar can negatively impact the immune system.
This discussion seems to have taken a turn in defending a high sugar consumption. I claimed that just because some have eaten a high sugar diet as a kid and not suffer from it, doesn't mean that it's necessarily harmless to do so. And now it seems as though a high sugar diet is being justified just because of anecdotal accounts.
A lot of diseases had no diagnosis, they were just unnamed.4 -
I did no such thing. I clearly stated that browsing the web shows others talking about the same things and I posted a sample of those sites. The fact that it if fearful to you isn't my problem.
When it comes to cherry picking and misrepresenting studies, much have that is happening all over on every side of the issue. There is a great deal of intentional misrepresenting, a good part of it is from pro-sugar views. The idea that added sugar can be healthy up to 25% of ones calories is really absurd. It that what you are defending?
I'm really getting a kick out of this thread.0 -
And I understand that. But my 4th post on page 16 (when I mentioned "a lot" of sugar consumption) seemed to have sparked a lot of controversy.sunnybeaches105 wrote: »
You've missed the point. The arguments are not defending "high sugar consumption" but putting the warnings against added sugars into the proper context of overall calorie consumption and a nutrient rich diet.0 -
Right, but I'm pretty sure that my parents and their friends would say that kids and young adults in general didn't need to go to the doctor for these kind of conditions, regardless of whether there was a diagnosis or not. In other words, people were healthier.queenliz99 wrote: »
A lot of diseases had no diagnosis, they were just unnamed.
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ForecasterJason wrote: »And I understand that. But my 4th post on page 16 (when I mentioned "a lot" of sugar consumption) seemed to have sparked a lot of controversy.
The point was "a lot" is an undefined amount without context or quantification. Someone eating a nutrient dense diet with plenty of protein, fats, fiber and micronutrients, and an intense training regime will be able to consume significantly more sugar than someone sitting on their hind end playing video games. Even the WHO warnings discuss added sugars in the context of lowering overall calorie consumption. Again, context.2 -
mskessler89 wrote: »
Seriously??? Aspartame is one of the most researched ingredients out there. We know what happens to it in the body and what the toxicity levels are. Other artificial sweeteners have been thoroughly studied as well. I seriously do not understand why you're in here "debating" when you're so lacking in research. Stop arguing with us for a while, switch from Google to Google Scholar so you can read peer-reviewed studies instead of fear-mongering articles, and come back when you've learned more about this topic and have more to go on than your n=1 experience.
There are a lot of pharmacokinetic studies with artificial sweeteners. What is lacking is the pharmacodyamic studies. In other words we know a lot about what are bodies do to artificial sweeteners but we don't know much about what the artificial sweeteners do to our bodies. On the pharmacodyamic side there is a lot of spectuation, just not many facts. There are many claims about what artificial sweeteners do our bodies and that is where much of the conversity is.
Just to be clear aspartame isn't the only artificial sweetener in use today, there are actually dozens that are used in different phases of food production. Just like sugar, they can't be completely avoided.
I'll leave the fear-mongering to you.1 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »
For kids, I think this is the main part of it, although probably less time moving, more time sitting around playing computer games also equates to more time to sit and eat/drink soda (while playing).
I live in a health-conscious neighborhood, and don't see many overweight kids. I do see lots of parents doing active things with their kids, and soccer and softball/baseball games and such at the local parks and school with parents watching and I know my friends with kids are always taking them to some sporting event or dance class or the like -- I think kids seem less likely to just run around outside like I did growing up (that could be different in the 'burbs, I live in a big city), but parents in my subculture/neighborhood seem to be focused on providing for organized opportunities for active play. But that seems to require either more work or parents who are also into those things in a way that wasn't so true when I was a kid. In part because if we weren't active, there was a lot less to do. (I used to read a lot, so was sedentary that way, and I suppose kids could have watched lots of TV, but my friends did not, and it was common for TV hours to be limited.)
Re soda, we didn't drink a lot as kids -- some, sure, more as a teen than as a small child when it was basically just at restaurants (we did have kool-aid in the summer, though, typically after running around all day). Soda just didn't seem as available to kids -- we didn't have it in the house and wouldn't have walked to the store to buy treats on our own just as a function of where we lived. But mostly it just didn't seem normal to drink huge amounts. I think part of this is what seems culturally normal or expected has changed, both in terms of activity (being completely sedentary would have seemed really weird) and in terms of food choice and amount.
That is a valid point. We didn't have (still don't) a TV when our children were young. The kids rarely missed it and filled their lives with all kinds of activities. Probably the only thing I would have changed is pushing them to eat fruit more instead of having juice. Still my children don't have any weight, energy or health issues. Most kids wouldn't either if it weren't for too much TV/Computer/Phone time. Kids are just like adults and need to be active to be healthy.1 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »So yes, people that have certain diseases have genes that make them more susceptible. But it's not like the genes on their own changed that much in one or two generations. In other words, something else must also be responsible for actually causing the disease to manifest itself in a given individual.
Have you not heard of evolution or genetic mutation?
People can eat a lot of sugar and not develop any health problems. Hard to believe, but it happens.0 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »Right, but I'm pretty sure that my parents and their friends would say that kids and young adults in general didn't need to go to the doctor for these kind of conditions, regardless of whether there was a diagnosis or not. In other words, people were healthier.
People in previous generations didn't go to doctors for a number of reasons. There were financial limitations, scheduling issues, not as many doctors, especially specialists, etc. Heck, my 93 year old Uncle Bob thinks that doctors make you sick. He's not been to a doctor in over 20 years.
The fact that people didn't go to the doctor as often does not mean prior generations were healthier. Seriously, do you even understand correlations?
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Have you not heard of evolution or genetic mutation?
People can eat a lot of sugar and not develop any health problems. Hard to believe, but it happens.
I heard doctors comment over and over that 20% of obese people in the states don't have any metabolic issues and 40% of normal weight people are actually metabolically sick and just won't know anything until they develop diabetes or some other problem. Still a lot better odds if you are normal weight.
There are people that can smoke and drink and live to be well over 100, but it is a little rare.
As for me, I'm not blessed with being able to consume large amounts of sugar without issues.1 -
That is a valid point. We didn't have (still don't) a TV when our children were young. The kids rarely missed it and filled their lives with all kinds of activities. Probably the only thing I would have changed is pushing them to eat fruit more instead of having juice. Still my children don't have any weight, energy or health issues. Most kids wouldn't either if it weren't for too much TV/Computer/Phone time. Kids are just like adults and need to be active to be healthy.
This post will be both a concession, and a counterpoint.
1: I was a fat kid, who drank lots of soda, played video games as much as possible, hated being outside, etc. When I say fat, I mean kicking in the door on two-hundred by ten years old.
2: I am now a not fat man, who drinks lots of (diet) soda, plays video games as much as possible (more than when I was a kid), hate being outside, sit on my *kitten* in a truck at work, but I understand how math works now.
My problem was far more on the nutritional side, and most of it due to the fact that I had morbidly obese parents, with a "clean your plate" attitude, and more fried food than I care to remember (badly fried, too, it was horribly cooked, in retrospect). I managed to figure out my numbers, break this way of eating, continue to be sedentary as hell, and not be fat as *kitten*. My brother on the other hand? Michelin man's stunt double, on his best day.
Now, was I in better overall health when I was lifting? Of course. I'll get back to it by the end of this summer, if for no other reason than I might actually be able to see the development process better, now that it isn't hidden under an added 25% of bodyfat. However, most of the arguments against consumption of sugar, hinge on the focus on obesity, especially in juveniles.1 -
I heard doctors comment over and over that 20% of obese people in the states don't have any metabolic issues and 40% of normal weight people are actually metabolically sick and just won't know anything until they develop diabetes or some other problem. Still a lot better odds if you are normal weight.
There are people that can smoke and drink and live to be well over 100, but it is a little rare.
As for me, I'm not blessed with being able to consume large amounts of sugar without issues.
And how does an individual achieve that normal weight to improve their odds of avoiding many metabolic issues? By controlling calories intake, not specifically limiting sugar.
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Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
This post will be both a concession, and a counterpoint.
1: I was a fat kid, who drank lots of soda, played video games as much as possible, hated being outside, etc. When I say fat, I mean kicking in the door on two-hundred by ten years old.
2: I am now a not fat man, who drinks lots of (diet) soda, plays video games as much as possible (more than when I was a kid), hate being outside, sit on my *kitten* in a truck at work, but I understand how math works now.
My problem was far more on the nutritional side, and most of it due to the fact that I had morbidly obese parents, with a "clean your plate" attitude, and more fried food than I care to remember (badly fried, too, it was horribly cooked, in retrospect). I managed to figure out my numbers, break this way of eating, continue to be sedentary as hell, and not be fat as *kitten*. My brother on the other hand? Michelin man's stunt double, on his best day.
Now, was I in better overall health when I was lifting? Of course. I'll get back to it by the end of this summer, if for no other reason than I might actually be able to see the development process better, now that it isn't hidden under an added 25% of bodyfat. However, most of the arguments against consumption of sugar, hinge on the focus on obesity, especially in juveniles.
First congratulations on overcoming rough nutritional start.
I completely agree that the arguments against sweetened beverages is mainly justified by the problems children are facing with obesity.
I never really drank much soda and when I started it was mostly diet soda. I think it was because I have an uncle that was just 7 months older than me. When he was in high school he was already huge. He would drink about 12 cans of coke a day while eating a large bag of Doritos, between lunch and supper. I guess that example spared me. I ran cross country in school so I didn't pick up a lot of weight until my 30's, I did get as bad as 230 pounds at one point. That was just because I was overeating then.0 -
WinoGelato wrote: »
And how does an individual achieve that normal weight to improve their odds of avoiding many metabolic issues? By controlling calories intake, not specifically limiting sugar.
There are studies that show visceral fat increases quickly with sugar sweetened beverages and decreases just a quickly once the sugar is removed. We don't directly have any control of where our bodies store fat, but storing fat around the liver is the worst place as far as metabolic issues go. This liver fat has been attributed to they way that fructose is metabolized.
For example:
http://newsroom.heart.org/news/sugar-sweetened-drinks-linked-to-increased-visceral-fat
This type of problem is behind the claims that all calories are not equal. That doesn't refer to energy but more what the outcome is. If you are normal body weight but have packed on visceral fat, you would be at high risk for metabolic issues. TOFI - Thin on the outside, fat on the inside is not a desirable body type for health. Even a normal weight person still has a good amount of body fat, even as much as 20% of their weight.0 -
There are studies that show visceral fat increases quickly with sugar sweetened beverages and decreases just a quickly once the sugar is removed. We don't directly have any control of where our bodies store fat, but storing fat around the liver is the worst place as far as metabolic issues go. This liver fat has been attributed to they way that fructose is metabolized.
For example:
http://newsroom.heart.org/news/sugar-sweetened-drinks-linked-to-increased-visceral-fat
This type of problem is behind the claims that all calories are not equal. That doesn't refer to energy but more what the outcome is. If you are normal body weight but have packed on visceral fat, you would be at high risk for metabolic issues. TOFI - Thin on the outside, fat on the inside is not a desirable body type for health. Even a normal weight person still has a good amount of body fat, even as much as 20% of their weight.
Do you have a link to the actual study? I can't find it on that page.
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Do you have a link to the actual study? I can't find it on that page.
http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/133/4/370
There is actually another one, where teenagers were studied, but I think they went by blood test results. Anyway I'm not sure of how to find it again. I have start saving links ...0 -
First congratulations on overcoming rough nutritional start.
I completely agree that the arguments against sweetened beverages is mainly justified by the problems children are facing with obesity.
I never really drank much soda and when I started it was mostly diet soda. I think it was because I have an uncle that was just 7 months older than me. When he was in high school he was already huge. He would drink about 12 cans of coke a day while eating a large bag of Doritos, between lunch and supper. I guess that example spared me. I ran cross country in school so I didn't pick up a lot of weight until my 30's, I did get as bad as 230 pounds at one point. That was just because I was overeating then.
Thanks, though there is a(n) (unfortunate) side-effect to all of it though. I have precisely zero sympathy or empathy now, for the obese who can't fix themselves, even though they claim to want to. Go down the checklist of all of the supposed factors that predestined people to be morbidly obese, and I hit every single one of them, except for the currently obese box: fat family, poor nutrition as a child, extremely sedentary, consume large quantities of fat/cal, grew up poor, was poor for the first three years of my adult life, live in the hood, blah blah blah.
But considering all that I had working against me, I find it really hard to believe that sugar consumption was my biggest problem. In fact, I am now curious, and will spend a couple of days trying to get a solid guesstimate for what an average day's consumption was for me, at that age, now that I have the tools to do so pretty quickly.4 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »Right, but I'm pretty sure that my parents and their friends would say that kids and young adults in general didn't need to go to the doctor for these kind of conditions, regardless of whether there was a diagnosis or not. In other words, people were healthier.
I'm an amateur historian, who first did a fair amount of work on my family tree. Along with filling out births, marriages, and deaths, I came across causes of death for relatives long gone. People died from all sorts of diseases that are scarcely a threat today. Infant mortality was much higher. My ancestors at times named a new infant after the recently departed child, in the hopes of carrying the family name to adulthood. I'd say one in four births the child did not make it to adulthood. Here's a few causes for you to chew over; complications from diabetes, "consumption", pneumonia, bipolar disorder, polio, sepsis from a cut thumb (no antibiotics), smallpox, Diptheria, and the Spanish Influenza.
By the way, "consumption" was a catch-all diagnosis where the person weakened and died from no known cause. Maybe cancer. We didn't have the advanced diagnostic tools we have today.3 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
Thanks, though there is a(n) (unfortunate) side-effect to all of it though. I have precisely zero sympathy or empathy now, for the obese who can't fix themselves, even though they claim to want to. Go down the checklist of all of the supposed factors that predestined people to be morbidly obese, and I hit every single one of them, except for the currently obese box: fat family, poor nutrition as a child, extremely sedentary, consume large quantities of fat/cal, grew up poor, was poor for the first three years of my adult life, live in the hood, blah blah blah.
But considering all that I had working against me, I find it really hard to believe that sugar consumption was my biggest problem. In fact, I am now curious, and will spend a couple of days trying to get a solid guesstimate for what an average day's consumption was for me, at that age, now that I have the tools to do so pretty quickly.
I'm mostly in agreement with adults should be able to fix their obesity problems. It is the young kids that are somewhat disturbing. You did beat the odds though.
Sugar consumption is just part of the issue. In many cases probably a small part of the issue. There have always been some obese people even before sugar was so plentiful. I might be more sensitive to added sugar than most people. I'm just lucky that it is an easy thing to avoid and really the only damage is maybe only eating one desert a month right now. Small price to pay for feeling good. Actually I miss not eating nuts more than desert. I might swaps some nuts into my breakfast, or just add them. Once I get my body fat down to 15% or so, I'll probably add some deserts back in anyways.0 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »While this is getting away from the OP, I would argue that from an overall health perspective, a lot of kids that grew up decades ago are in better shape than kids today. And I'm not saying that's all attributed to diet. I too know people who are older than me who didn't eat right growing up but aren't necessarily suffering from that today. I'm just saying, times have changed. The food supply isn't what it was then.
We ate and drank MORE sugar when I was a kid. At that time it was the low fat craze. So this idea that it all has to come down to diet is crazy. Yes diet is important but the big elephant in the room is obvious, kids are just not as active anymore. This is not hard to grasp...1 -
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That is a valid point. We didn't have (still don't) a TV when our children were young. The kids rarely missed it and filled their lives with all kinds of activities. Probably the only thing I would have changed is pushing them to eat fruit more instead of having juice. Still my children don't have any weight, energy or health issues. Most kids wouldn't either if it weren't for too much TV/Computer/Phone time. Kids are just like adults and need to be active to be healthy.
When I was a kid, we did not have video games in the home. We did not have 1,000 channels to surf through on the television. There was no virtual reality, there was just reality. We rode our bikes, we played tag, manhunt, hide and seek etc. As a parent now, I feel like I am fighting an uphill battle to keep my 5 year old active. The opportunities to be inactive are more prevalent then when I was a kid. He loves the iPad, the tv etc. He watches and plays tv, iPad and games on the educational side so I am a little more reluctant to stop him but still it's the same thing, I have to make sure he gets outside, gets to the park etc.
The food, IMO, has not really changed all that much. What the media focus on has changed. When I was a kid it was fat, as I have grown older it's carbs and most recently sugar (which is carbs). What has absolutely changed is activity. Kids are just not as active anymore...1 -
When I was a kid, we did not have video games in the home. We did not have 1,000 channels to surf through on the television. There was no virtual reality, there was just reality. We rode our bikes, we played tag, manhunt, hide and seek etc. As a parent now, I feel like I am fighting an uphill battle to keep my 5 year old active. The opportunities to be inactive are more prevalent then when I was a kid. He loves the iPad, the tv etc. He watches and plays tv, iPad and games on the educational side so I am a little more reluctant to stop him but still it's the same thing, I have to make sure he gets outside, gets to the park etc.
The food, IMO, has not really changed all that much. What the media focus on has changed. When I was a kid it was fat, as I have grown older it's carbs and most recently sugar (which is carbs). What has absolutely changed is activity. Kids are just not as active anymore...
It's interesting that you mention VR as a problem. In fact, it might end up being the solution. Check out the Virtuix Omni. If that thing goes live, and doesn't cost as much as a used car, I am in. Playing Bethesda games by actually walking, running, "shooting", etc.? I am in.0 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »What's debatable is this:
Never an issue? From a weight perspective, then yes I can understand that. But from an overall health perspective? I don't know what "a lot" really means here, but depending on the overall makeup of the diet I think that is very questionable. Giving kids an occasional soda here and there isn't a problem IMO. But that doesn't sound like that's what the situation was, especially if other sweets are/were involved.
Yes Jason, it was never an issue. It became an issue as I got older, my metabolism slowed due to less activity. With a heavier workload at school there was less free time to play. Only as I got older did I have to "watch" what I ate. My parents made sure, regardless, that my diet was well balanced which I in turn now do for my son. He gets his treats, drinks his juice, eats his deadly waffles. But, he is a kid and plays like a kid. He runs, jumps, hides, wrestles etc.
I assure you, I am perfectly healthy...
So please, STOP overanalyzing this stuff, because it goes nowhere.5 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
It's interesting that you mention VR as a problem. In fact, it might end up being the solution. Check out the Virtuix Omni. If that thing goes live, and doesn't cost as much as a used car, I am in. Playing Bethesda games by actually walking, running, "shooting", etc.? I am in.
It's a far cry better then doing it sitting on your *kitten*
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When I was a kid, we did not have video games in the home. We did not have 1,000 channels to surf through on the television. There was no virtual reality, there was just reality. We rode our bikes, we played tag, manhunt, hide and seek etc. As a parent now, I feel like I am fighting an uphill battle to keep my 5 year old active. The opportunities to be inactive are more prevalent then when I was a kid. He loves the iPad, the tv etc. He watches and plays tv, iPad and games on the educational side so I am a little more reluctant to stop him but still it's the same thing, I have to make sure he gets outside, gets to the park etc.
The food, IMO, has not really changed all that much. What the media focus on has changed. When I was a kid it was fat, as I have grown older it's carbs and most recently sugar (which is carbs). What has absolutely changed is activity. Kids are just not as active anymore...
My 15 year old boy is quite adapt with computers and programming now. However he wasn't allowed really any computer time when he was young. Even now he only gets a couple hours a day, mostly because it is needed for his homework. I don't think it hurt him at all. Kids learn really well with human interaction.
We used to read to our kids a lot. I would read English books and my wife mostly read Japanese books to the kids. When my son was 4 I was bored to tears by most of the children's book. I grabbed a biography of Benjamin Franklin and started reading that. He really started complaining but I got him to agree to just listen to the first chapter. When we finished that chapter he begged me to keep reading. It took a week or two but we finished the book and after that we actually read a lot of interesting books together. It was a fun period.
Not really activity, but kids also need those easy times too.0 -
My 15 year old boy is quite adapt with computers and programming now. However he wasn't allowed really any computer time when he was young. Even now he only gets a couple hours a day, mostly because it is needed for his homework. I don't think it hurt him at all. Kids learn really well with human interaction.
We used to read to our kids a lot. I would read English books and my wife mostly read Japanese books to the kids. When my son was 4 I was borned to tears by most of the children's book. I grabbed a biography of Benjamin Franklin and started reading that. He really started complaining but I got him to agree to just listen to the first chapter. When we finished that chapter he begged me to keep reading. It took a week or two but we finished the book and after that we actually read a lot of interesting books together. It was a fun period.
Not really activity, but kids also need those easy times too.
Absolutely. It is sorely missing today. And as a parent of a 5 year old I am quite aware that, IMO, it is harder to do it today. There are so many more distractions to navigate through. When I was a kid, my Mother stayed home to take care of us and the house while my Father went out to make a living. Today, my wife and I both have to go out and work. Everything feels so rushed all the time and now more then ever, it's so important to MAKE the time to do those things...0 -
My 15 year old boy is quite adapt with computers and programming now. However he wasn't allowed really any computer time when he was young. Even now he only gets a couple hours a day, mostly because it is needed for his homework. I don't think it hurt him at all. Kids learn really well with human interaction.
We used to read to our kids a lot. I would read English books and my wife mostly read Japanese books to the kids. When my son was 4 I was bored to tears by most of the children's book. I grabbed a biography of Benjamin Franklin and started reading that. He really started complaining but I got him to agree to just listen to the first chapter. When we finished that chapter he begged me to keep reading. It took a week or two but we finished the book and after that we actually read a lot of interesting books together. It was a fun period.
Not really activity, but kids also need those easy times too.
You couldn't have picked a better subject. Franklin biographies are rarely boring. The man's wit is often carried over into works about him by others.0 -
Anything in moderation.0
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Yes Jason, it was never an issue. It became an issue as I got older, my metabolism slowed due to less activity. With a heavier workload at school there was less free time to play. Only as I got older did I have to "watch" what I ate. My parents made sure, regardless, that my diet was well balanced which I in turn now do for my son. He gets his treats, drinks his juice, eats his deadly waffles. But, he is a kid and plays like a kid. He runs, jumps, hides, wrestles etc.
I assure you, I am perfectly healthy...
So please, STOP overanalyzing this stuff, because it goes nowhere.
My kids eat pancakes, waffles, sodas, ice cream, donuts and cookies regularly. Probably two treats a day, sometimes more on the weekends when we are active. We allow this on top of a solid diet, and both our kids are on the low end of the weight scale with good muscle development for their ages. I grew up in a similar fashion though not as active as my kids. I didn't gain weight until my late twenties when I went very sedentary. If I continue this back in time and look at the rich and often sugary food that my grandparents (died late 80s) and great grandparents (died 80s to 90s) ate then I also have a hard time not seeing obesity as 99% activity level and lack of portion control, rather than what specifically is being eaten.
The study posted above didn't restrict calories when looking at the relationship between adipose tissue and sugar, so it's interesting, but I'm not seeing it as anything more than that. Sugary drinks will tend to increase overall calorie consumption absent a specific limitation on calories. Maybe someone with a heavy statistical background can tell me why I'm wrong. I'm nearly 20 years out of school and only toyed with regression analysis then.1
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