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CICO is not the whole equation
Replies
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geneticexpectations wrote: »geneticexpectations wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »The only thing CICO adherents want is for people to stop conflating nutrition and weight loss. If you eat too much of the healthiest, cleanest foods, you will not lose weight. In order to lose weight, you need to eat less food energy than your body is using on a daily-ish basis.
To say that the laws of thermodynamics do not apply to the human body is utterly ridiculous. It's akin to saying that we can't measure the distance a car has driven in kilometres because a car is a complex machine with hundreds of moving parts and half a dozen or more onboard computers. A kilometre is a kilometre just like a calorie is a calorie. We do not create energy out of nothing despite being incredibly complex organisms.
CICO is important for people to understand so that they are not frustrated, discouraged or overwhelmed. If you tell someone they can eat all the same foods, just less of them, they are more likely to be successful in their WEIGHT LOSS than if you tell them they have to follow a strict, restrictive food plan, not eat the things they enjoy and eat a whole bunch of things they don't enjoy all while eating less food than they are used to. Baby steps.
I suspect a lot of people's journey mirrors my own: first I reduced my calorie intake. Then, when I found I was not full enough or satiated on the foods I was used to eating due to the smaller portions, I explored nutrient rich, healthier food options that filled me me up for longer periods of time within my reduced calorie budget. Due to necessity, my diet has changed gradually, in a manageable way that I am comfortable with and now includes healthier options than it used to but it all started by altering nothing other than food quantities. Nutrition came after weight loss. I tried your prescribed method for 20 years but weight loss did not follow when I focused on "clean eating" and I'm sure I'm not alone in this experience.
If the laws of thermodynamics were so EASILY applied (of course they can be applied, just not EASILY) to the human body, there is a good chance I will have to find another line of work. I am employed because in practice, the application of these laws of thermodynamics are not translating to a reduction in obesity NOR ARE THEY TRANSLATING TO A REDUCTION OF DISEASE. We are a results oriented profession. We do what works for our patients. Telling them to eat less and move more only seems to translate to REAL WORLD RESULTS in a minority, which is not good enough given the scale of these problems. So we instead switch to what works.
Which methods are these? From what I have researched, all weightloss attempts only work for the minority?
Some do work far better than others, but the research is only a part of the story (because the study designs are horrible in all diet research). By far the most effective ones in practice are LCHF, real food based diets, and work even better with IF. But, this isn't applicable to all. Some do in fact respond to a simple reduction in calories with increased activity, and often these people do get even better results with whole foods. With others it seems to be more complex, ie dairy casein gets in the way, or they seem to get way better progress with FODMAP elimination. Every person is a bit of a trial and error.
But no physician who is informed about preventative medicine ever JUST focuses on weight loss or EVER separates weight loss and health/nutrition. The goal is always to treat a patient's overall health which INCLUDES their weight. Several patients exhibit "side effects" of whole food diets such as getting off meds for many conditions (especially autoimmune, lipid and BP meds) that these patients did not exhibit with "pure CICO" in prior stints of weight loss success.
Like I said, we don't know why these things work, we just do what works because that's what's best for the patient.
I don't have the data to assume what works for others, but I'm doing "pure CICO" and my doctor just took me off BP meds.6 -
geneticexpectations wrote: »geneticexpectations wrote: »geneticexpectations wrote: »
What? That's your slam dunk? Your claim is worthless unless you are willing, or able to show us those said scans and all the context of each patient (diet and lifestyle) that goes with them...
No wasn't meant to be a slam dunk, wham bham thank you ma'am, end of story, and although it was one line, it wasn't meant to be a one liner. Just the most powerful truth as I see it with my own eyes.
But with respect to the info I have at my disposal, it is by far the most powerful demonstration to me. But of course, it has to be limited to just me. Or else privacy laws would have me incarcerated!
So, yes, to you my claim is in fact worthless, unless you are willing to take a leap of faith. Not sure why it is such a huge leap of faith though. You already believe that in general eating less is a good thing, and you seem to believe in the concept that certain foods provide value from a nutrition standpoint. I'm just not sure why it is such a massive woo-like crazymaking stretch to also consider that most foods created with heavy artificial influence actually can be harmful. And there's really nothing to lose by giving up certain foods except taste... and that taste actually turns from positive to negative once the food is eliminated for a period of time. The only thing in my mind (I guess I have to fill in the blanks) to explain this reluctance to consider this concept is that there is an emotional or neurochemical connection/attachment (or perhaps dependence) on having these foods around to warrant a denial to even consider that they may not be compatible with our physiology.
And yes, we cna put together a patient's history with their scan findings, which are NOT subtle.
You assume I have not tried this already while coming to my own conclusion...
No, I think I have read before that you did try way the of eating that I currently do. Or maybe another poster said that about you, I'm not sure.
But I have to ask... was your barometer of success purely fat loss (because clearly by your profile pic, you have achieved that)?? Because that's the point I'm getting at, is that fat loss isn't the whole story of health. Now, if you feel better overall doing what you are doing now and a primal way of eating just didn't agree with you, well, you can't argue with that and everyone's different.
I'm just arguing that as a general trend (not towards you specifically) I'm not sure why it is so taboo to suggest that laying off junk may be a good idea for health given what's at stake... and given that patients cannot see what is inside them, regardless of how they feel or how they look on the outside. The difference can be quite dramatic.
When I tried paleo (3 yrs), physically, I felt no different. The only thing that changed was my cholesterol went up (total, HDL and LDL). Cholesterol ratios were the same so I was not all that concerned. One thing of note that did happen to me was my eating became a bit dis-ordered. I was developing a bit of orthorexia...10 -
geneticexpectations wrote: »3 points:
1. Some people state that CICO is a law of physics. Technically, the first law of thermodynamics is a law of physics, and a calorie is simply a unit of measurement of raising 1 g of water through 1 degree C IN A BOMB CALORIMETER. We as humans are each a complex biological system, not a bomb calorimeter. While being aware of a general sense of how much one eats is probably a good thing common sense wise, being dogmatic about a bomb calorimeter law for human fat loss is ignoring the complexity of a biological system. We should be looking for laws of BIOLOGY, not laws of physics to guide us.
I don't believe that knowledgeable CICO adherents think that calories as a measure of energy produced from food consumed is an exact and precise tool, either. However, since every food in the world is currently defined by calories, it's the best that we have right now. And disputing the minor inaccuracies that likely occur is majoring in the minors here.
If all foods were no longer defined by caloric content - thereby making a piece of celery and a cup of ice cream equal - how would that be more helpful or accurate?2 -
geneticexpectations wrote: »3 points:
1. Some people state that CICO is a law of physics. Technically, the first law of thermodynamics is a law of physics, and a calorie is simply a unit of measurement of raising 1 g of water through 1 degree C IN A BOMB CALORIMETER. We as humans are each a complex biological system, not a bomb calorimeter. While being aware of a general sense of how much one eats is probably a good thing common sense wise, being dogmatic about a bomb calorimeter law for human fat loss is ignoring the complexity of a biological system. We should be looking for laws of BIOLOGY, not laws of physics to guide us.
2. Just a general pattern I have noticed.. again, not a hard and fast rule but a general pattern. Those who shout "it's all about CICO" really seem to like their junk food (although many do include whole foods), and really seem to want to keep junk food in the mix. To my eye, I do wonder if CICO is a fantastic marketing scheme for big food to give people "permission" to keep that junk food hanging around (one would naturally be all inclusive if instructed that quantity trumps quality).
3. I also notice that the "it's all about CICO" folk do tend to exhibit disproportionately negative emotional responses at the mention of "clean eating" or "whole food diets" or the word "paleo". Or at the very least, there will be a lot of sarcasm/hostility/derision in the tone of responses. I don't know why this is. If one is confident in their method, they usually react peacefully to alternative suggestions. I do understand that food is an emotional topic, but I don't see the converse scenario nearly as much (a "clean eater" getting hostile at the suggestion of CICO/everything in moderation). But that could just be my observation.
Now, there certainly are exceptions to my point number 2, as several forum members do say that they like to watch what they eat in addition to how much, but like I said I just noticed this general trend....
1. Both CICO and the first law of thermo are applications of the law of conservation of energy. The complexity of the system has no influence on the underlying laws of physics. Everything that exists in the universe obeys these laws, including all organic matter. Please feel free to rebut by providing an example of a biological system that does not obey the laws of physics (this is a rhetorical request, please do not put a lot of effort into searching for such an example). As a trained and experienced scientist, yes, I am dogmatic about the laws of physics. Note that the laws of physics do not make any statements about your health. Developing a better understanding of biochemistry and nutrition is great, but you will not find any magic loopholes hiding in there that invalidate fundamental physics.
2. I disagree with your conclusion. I observe that the most vocal proponents of CICO are often the most educated and accomplished in their fitness and nutrition goals. They are the most likely to recommend the same advice you would get from a registered dietitian. If you are going to state that CICO is a marketing conspiracy, at least provide some evidence.
3. It is very difficult to assess emotion through text. What is my emotional state right now? There is always a lot of sarcasm/hostility/derision in all Internet forums, whatever the topic is. That is just humans being human. It is not a coincidence that you perceive favorable traits in those who agree with your opinions.geneticexpectations wrote: »Ok. I'll reword the question.
WHO DO CEO's of BIG FOOD LIKE BETTER TO MAKE THEIR BUSINESS PLAN WORK???
People who think some foods are healthy and other foods are not?
or
People who think food is food
?????
Not sure where you live, but in my country the marketing of large food companies has always directly addressed current public opinion, whether that be low-fat, gluten-free, no added sugar, or whatever the trend du jour happens to be. Yesterday I saw a Panera ad that stated that their food is 100% clean, whatever that is supposed to mean. Fast food chains have been increasingly adopting "healthy" marketing bulletpoints for many years now.
1. What I was saying is that law or no law, results trump all. Of course I had to take physics and biochem etc as well, and I appreciate the principles. But when application of these "black box" principles fails most patients, you don't be stubborn as a professional and keep insisting that method. I do what works and do what is sustainable. And yes, sometimes, that is pure CICO if that's the only way the results happen. But often times, no it's not. But overall if what works differs from equations that people in labcoats are pouring over in some dark corner of an academic facility, oh well.
2. I didn't state CICO was a conspiracy. In my exact words, which you quoted, I started the sentence off with "To my eye". And in my practice, advice from registered dieticians is mostly what screws up the health and nutrition of patients and sends them to our office in the first place, because those dieticians just promote the popular "guidelines", which are atrociously bad. Being on par with registered dieticians in our jurisdiction is not an endorsement. It is an indictment.
3. To clarify: Firstly, the emotional responses I was describing are not just limited to the internet. Secondly, with respect to those who share my opinions, I do not observe how they are towards me, but towards those whose opinions differ from them.1 -
snickerscharlie wrote: »geneticexpectations wrote: »geneticexpectations wrote: »It's odd as I have never noticed number 2 a single time in these boards...
Maybe I worded it badly. Let me try again. I seem to notice on these boards that many (not all, but many) who claim "it's all about CICO" seem to use this as justification to be able to include any food that can be purchased at a store within their diets.
I don't understand what's wrong with this. You can certainly get in your macros and micros eating any food that can be purchased at a store, it's not necessary to eat "clean", or remove "junk food" (whatever those words even mean) in order to lose weight and stay healthy. This argument continues to baffle me - it's as though people are saying if you eat "processed" food (again whatever that means) all the nutrients are sucked out of it.
Sounds more like someone needs justification on why not to eat it rather than the folks who apparently understand there is nothing wrong with any foods and have no reason to justify eating it, no?
ooooo zing!
Then..... why are you here?
Perhaps @Hornsby is here to monitor his cut or bulk cycles? Because I somehow don't think he just woke up one morning with a physique as incredible as his is.
Not what I was getting at. He was simply flipping the script (which is an emotional response as I outlined in point 3... any emotional behaviour is one in which you probably wouldn't do with a colleague), so I was playing flip the script to point that out.0 -
geneticexpectations wrote: »geneticexpectations wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »The only thing CICO adherents want is for people to stop conflating nutrition and weight loss. If you eat too much of the healthiest, cleanest foods, you will not lose weight. In order to lose weight, you need to eat less food energy than your body is using on a daily-ish basis.
To say that the laws of thermodynamics do not apply to the human body is utterly ridiculous. It's akin to saying that we can't measure the distance a car has driven in kilometres because a car is a complex machine with hundreds of moving parts and half a dozen or more onboard computers. A kilometre is a kilometre just like a calorie is a calorie. We do not create energy out of nothing despite being incredibly complex organisms.
CICO is important for people to understand so that they are not frustrated, discouraged or overwhelmed. If you tell someone they can eat all the same foods, just less of them, they are more likely to be successful in their WEIGHT LOSS than if you tell them they have to follow a strict, restrictive food plan, not eat the things they enjoy and eat a whole bunch of things they don't enjoy all while eating less food than they are used to. Baby steps.
I suspect a lot of people's journey mirrors my own: first I reduced my calorie intake. Then, when I found I was not full enough or satiated on the foods I was used to eating due to the smaller portions, I explored nutrient rich, healthier food options that filled me me up for longer periods of time within my reduced calorie budget. Due to necessity, my diet has changed gradually, in a manageable way that I am comfortable with and now includes healthier options than it used to but it all started by altering nothing other than food quantities. Nutrition came after weight loss. I tried your prescribed method for 20 years but weight loss did not follow when I focused on "clean eating" and I'm sure I'm not alone in this experience.
If the laws of thermodynamics were so EASILY applied (of course they can be applied, just not EASILY) to the human body, there is a good chance I will have to find another line of work. I am employed because in practice, the application of these laws of thermodynamics are not translating to a reduction in obesity NOR ARE THEY TRANSLATING TO A REDUCTION OF DISEASE. We are a results oriented profession. We do what works for our patients. Telling them to eat less and move more only seems to translate to REAL WORLD RESULTS in a minority, which is not good enough given the scale of these problems. So we instead switch to what works.
Which methods are these? From what I have researched, all weightloss attempts only work for the minority?
Some do work far better than others, but the research is only a part of the story (because the study designs are horrible in all diet research). By far the most effective ones in practice are LCHF, real food based diets, and work even better with IF. But, this isn't applicable to all. Some do in fact respond to a simple reduction in calories with increased activity, and often these people do get even better results with whole foods. With others it seems to be more complex, ie dairy casein gets in the way, or they seem to get way better progress with FODMAP elimination. Every person is a bit of a trial and error.
But no physician who is informed about preventative medicine ever JUST focuses on weight loss or EVER separates weight loss and health/nutrition. The goal is always to treat a patient's overall health which INCLUDES their weight. Several patients exhibit "side effects" of whole food diets such as getting off meds for many conditions (especially autoimmune, lipid and BP meds) that these patients did not exhibit with "pure CICO" in prior stints of weight loss success.
Like I said, we don't know why these things work, we just do what works because that's what's best for the patient.
I don't have the data to assume what works for others, but I'm doing "pure CICO" and my doctor just took me off BP meds.
Awesome.0 -
geneticexpectations wrote: »
1. What I was saying is that law or no law, results trump all. Of course I had to take physics and biochem etc as well, and I appreciate the principles. But when application of these "black box" principles fails most patients, you don't be stubborn as a professional and keep insisting that method. I do what works and do what is sustainable. And yes, sometimes, that is pure CICO if that's the only way the results happen. But often times, no it's not. But overall if what works differs from equations that people in labcoats are pouring over in some dark corner of an academic facility, oh well.
Let me know if I'm misreading this, but CICO is in fact the only way results happen, it's just that whether or not tracking those calories and thinking about those calories is a separate question.
Increasing food quality to improve satiety, perhaps see how different distribution of macronutrients may effect calories in AND calories out (what you eat can impact involuntary activity levels/NEAT), and of course there are MASSIVE differences to adherence as well as individual differences to how resistant someone is to weight gain and weight loss (again very likely due to changes in NEAT as a response to diet).
But this is still CICO, it just may not be what a client focuses on to achieve it.
Your post seems to imply that CICO doesn't work for people but perhaps I'm misreading that.
11 -
Gianfranco_R wrote: »geneticexpectations wrote: »3 points:
1. Some people state that CICO is a law of physics. Technically, the first law of thermodynamics is a law of physics, and a calorie is simply a unit of measurement of raising 1 g of water through 1 degree C IN A BOMB CALORIMETER. We as humans are each a complex biological system, not a bomb calorimeter. While being aware of a general sense of how much one eats is probably a good thing common sense wise, being dogmatic about a bomb calorimeter law for human fat loss is ignoring the complexity of a biological system. We should be looking for laws of BIOLOGY, not laws of physics to guide us.
2. Just a general pattern I have noticed.. again, not a hard and fast rule but a general pattern. Those who shout "it's all about CICO" really seem to like their junk food (although many do include whole foods), and really seem to want to keep junk food in the mix. To my eye, I do wonder if CICO is a fantastic marketing scheme for big food to give people "permission" to keep that junk food hanging around (one would naturally be all inclusive if instructed that quantity trumps quality).
3. I also notice that the "it's all about CICO" folk do tend to exhibit disproportionately negative emotional responses at the mention of "clean eating" or "whole food diets" or the word "paleo". Or at the very least, there will be a lot of sarcasm/hostility/derision in the tone of responses. I don't know why this is. If one is confident in their method, they usually react peacefully to alternative suggestions. I do understand that food is an emotional topic, but I don't see the converse scenario nearly as much (a "clean eater" getting hostile at the suggestion of CICO/everything in moderation). But that could just be my observation.
Now, there certainly are exceptions to my point number 2, as several forum members do say that they like to watch what they eat in addition to how much, but like I said I just noticed this general trend....
There may be many reasons. Perhaps it's the gym subculture, and/or or a sort of anti-intellectualism. Surely it shows a lack of interpersonal skills. Being able to remain civil while expressing disagreement requires a certain level of education.
How much education does one require for this level of passive aggressiveness?
Want to be masters or higher4 -
The way I look at the whole weight loss/CICO/health situation is like this:
The smartest observation I ever heard coming from Arnold Schwarzenegger was in Pumping Iron. To paraphrase, Arnold described bodybuilding as creating a sculpture. A sculptor adds and removes medium (clay) here and there until he or she reaches then shape envisioned. The bodybuilder does the same, using muscle as their medium.
CICO, weight gain or weight loss, will determine the amount of clay, or quantity, you have for your sculpture. Keep in mind that you cannot increase the height (frame) of your sculpture - you can only add to or take away from the set height that you have. So you must be cautious of how much you add or take away in order to maintain some proportionality and symmetry.
Genetics will have the greatest impact on what the sculpture looks like. Exercise, along with weight gain and loss, are the tools you have at your disposal to influence the outcome of the sculpture. Science has not advanced far enough for us to go into the clinic and have our genes re-structured so as to impact our appearance/shape. You're essentially stuck with what you have in most regards. That doesn't mean you can't make positive, noticeable improvements. Keep in mind that if you choose to do nothing but run long distances, you'll eventually look like a marathon runner. If you choose to add some muscle through resistance exercise, you'll change the look of the sculpture. If you choose to do nothing, sit all day, and gorge yourself, then you'll get the inevitable outcome of something akin to Jabba, the Hut.
Quality of diet will be the biggest determining factor on the quality of the medium used in your sculpture. You can use cheap clay (poor quality diet) that will crumble within a short period of time and may shatter is dropped from just a short distance, or you can use the good clay (good quality diet) which will stand for centuries, capable of withstanding many bumps, drops, etc.
Quality of diet, I believe, has a direct impact on the outcome of your efforts to create the body you desire. More importantly, it has a huge impact on the quality of your life as it pertains to your health. Sure, you can lose weight eating McDonald's and Ben and Jerry's everyday; all you need to do is create a calorie deficit to accomplish that. But, internally, you would certainly not be doing yourself any favors and the potential adverse impact on your overall health should not be ignored. A common phrase I've heard is, "You can't outrun a jelly doughnut". Well, yes you can. I know. I did it for many years, many years ago. If you run 30+ miles per week, you can "outrun" most bad diets and not gain a pound. That's what I did. I could (and did) eat whatever I wanted and as much as I wanted and not gain an ounce. Even at 5-10, 168 lbs., I still had a bit of a gut. Had I played it smarter, eaten a bit more wisely and did more than just running, I might today be happier with the sculpture I had created then. And had I not carried those eating habits into my later years after I was told I had to stop running, I would be healthier than I am now.
So, in sum:
CICO is the main tool you have at your disposal to determine your weight.
Genetics and exercise determines how that weight will look on your frame
Quality of diet will impact your health, maybe not immediately, but in the long run.
Unhealthy people have a much harder time using their tools to create fitness and health.6 -
geneticexpectations wrote: »geneticexpectations wrote: »geneticexpectations wrote: »
What? That's your slam dunk? Your claim is worthless unless you are willing, or able to show us those said scans and all the context of each patient (diet and lifestyle) that goes with them...
No wasn't meant to be a slam dunk, wham bham thank you ma'am, end of story, and although it was one line, it wasn't meant to be a one liner. Just the most powerful truth as I see it with my own eyes.
But with respect to the info I have at my disposal, it is by far the most powerful demonstration to me. But of course, it has to be limited to just me. Or else privacy laws would have me incarcerated!
So, yes, to you my claim is in fact worthless, unless you are willing to take a leap of faith. Not sure why it is such a huge leap of faith though. You already believe that in general eating less is a good thing, and you seem to believe in the concept that certain foods provide value from a nutrition standpoint. I'm just not sure why it is such a massive woo-like crazymaking stretch to also consider that most foods created with heavy artificial influence actually can be harmful. And there's really nothing to lose by giving up certain foods except taste... and that taste actually turns from positive to negative once the food is eliminated for a period of time. The only thing in my mind (I guess I have to fill in the blanks) to explain this reluctance to consider this concept is that there is an emotional or neurochemical connection/attachment (or perhaps dependence) on having these foods around to warrant a denial to even consider that they may not be compatible with our physiology.
And yes, we cna put together a patient's history with their scan findings, which are NOT subtle.
You assume I have not tried this already while coming to my own conclusion...
No, I think I have read before that you did try way the of eating that I currently do. Or maybe another poster said that about you, I'm not sure.
But I have to ask... was your barometer of success purely fat loss (because clearly by your profile pic, you have achieved that)?? Because that's the point I'm getting at, is that fat loss isn't the whole story of health. Now, if you feel better overall doing what you are doing now and a primal way of eating just didn't agree with you, well, you can't argue with that and everyone's different.
I'm just arguing that as a general trend (not towards you specifically) I'm not sure why it is so taboo to suggest that laying off junk may be a good idea for health given what's at stake... and given that patients cannot see what is inside them, regardless of how they feel or how they look on the outside. The difference can be quite dramatic.
When I tried paleo (3 yrs), physically, I felt no different. The only thing that changed was my cholesterol went up (total, HDL and LDL). Cholesterol ratios were the same so I was not all that concerned. One thing of note that did happen to me was my eating became a bit dis-ordered. I was developing a bit of orthorexia...
Ah, fair enough. Orthorexia would mean your enjoyment of the process was hindered and that certainly isn't a good thing.
Regarding cholesterol, the only real ratio I ever get concerned about is HDL/Trigs. And really, this is mostly about the trigs. Your lipid response is actually very typical for paleo primal, and that's good. LDL is virtually meaningless. LDL lipoproteins and particle size are more of a story. Usually when grains and added sugars are eliminated, average LDL particle size increases and the rise in LDL is due to the larger less dense LDL (which is innocuous). Total C usually increases more due to increases in HDL I find. New literature is even suggesting that increase LDL is protective for dementia, and 3/4 of MI (heart attack) patients have "normal" or "low" LDL. Focusing on LDL is seriously backwards (and unfortunately still popular) medicine.
Yet, the most profitable drugs in the world are statins - designed to target lowering of LDL.
NOW
THAT
IS
A
CONSPIRACY2 -
geneticexpectations wrote: »
1. What I was saying is that law or no law, results trump all. Of course I had to take physics and biochem etc as well, and I appreciate the principles. But when application of these "black box" principles fails most patients, you don't be stubborn as a professional and keep insisting that method. I do what works and do what is sustainable. And yes, sometimes, that is pure CICO if that's the only way the results happen. But often times, no it's not. But overall if what works differs from equations that people in labcoats are pouring over in some dark corner of an academic facility, oh well.
Let me know if I'm misreading this, but CICO is in fact the only way results happen, it's just that whether or not tracking those calories and thinking about those calories is a separate question.
Increasing food quality to improve satiety, perhaps see how different distribution of macronutrients may effect calories in AND calories out (what you eat can impact involuntary activity levels/NEAT), and of course there are MASSIVE differences to adherence as well as individual differences to how resistant someone is to weight gain and weight loss (again very likely due to changes in NEAT as a response to diet).
But this is still CICO, it just may not be what a client focuses on to achieve it.
Your post seems to imply that CICO doesn't work for people but perhaps I'm misreading that.
You are misreading that I think. I'm not disputing the energetics, nor am I disputing what goes on at the cellular level. I'm just saying, some things work, and others don't work as well or don't work at all. I get paid to do what works. I don't want to starve.0 -
geneticexpectations wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »geneticexpectations wrote: »geneticexpectations wrote: »It's odd as I have never noticed number 2 a single time in these boards...
Maybe I worded it badly. Let me try again. I seem to notice on these boards that many (not all, but many) who claim "it's all about CICO" seem to use this as justification to be able to include any food that can be purchased at a store within their diets.
I don't understand what's wrong with this. You can certainly get in your macros and micros eating any food that can be purchased at a store, it's not necessary to eat "clean", or remove "junk food" (whatever those words even mean) in order to lose weight and stay healthy. This argument continues to baffle me - it's as though people are saying if you eat "processed" food (again whatever that means) all the nutrients are sucked out of it.
Sounds more like someone needs justification on why not to eat it rather than the folks who apparently understand there is nothing wrong with any foods and have no reason to justify eating it, no?
ooooo zing!
Then..... why are you here?
Perhaps @Hornsby is here to monitor his cut or bulk cycles? Because I somehow don't think he just woke up one morning with a physique as incredible as his is.
Not what I was getting at. He was simply flipping the script (which is an emotional response as I outlined in point 3... any emotional behaviour is one in which you probably wouldn't do with a colleague), so I was playing flip the script to point that out.
Then let me flip your question around on you:
Since it appears you don't buy into the CICO premise, why are *you* here on a website that, by design, is based around CICO and calorie counting?5 -
geneticexpectations wrote: »That's cool. I understand and accept that there is a difference in perception of what food means to each of us.
Let me ask another hopefully provocative question - and this is in the light that I am a quality over quantity guy, ie, I do "primal" dieting sticking to whole foods, buy all my meats pastured/grassfed from individual farmers etc.
WHO DO THE CEO's OF BIG FOOD LIKE BETTER?
(ie, the people who make billions$$$$ off of non-whole foods, not like the farmers who I buy from who just get by).
Me
or
You (Referring to the people who responded to my recent post).
??????
Who do people which care about the environment and people in developing countries who need access to cheap sources of food which do not perish easily like better?
You
or
Me.
I'll give you a clue.
It's not you.
There are many sides to the story with respect to the environment and having a pattern of raising animals naturally. Many people assume it's a net loss to the environment, but many can argue that industrialization is a net loss.
You're right, people in developing countries need access to cheap food which does not perish easily. Hell, they just need access to food. I do wonder why developED countries want dietary habits of developING countries.
You must have got your clue from a fortune cookie
Unless you can provide medical care, they would probably like me better
Sorry, snarky makes me snarky.0 -
geneticexpectations wrote: »It's odd as I have never noticed number 2 a single time in these boards...
Maybe I worded it badly. Let me try again. I seem to notice on these boards that many (not all, but many) who claim "it's all about CICO" seem to use this as justification to be able to include any food that can be purchased at a store within their diets.
Just once, I'd like to see someone who doesn't think it's all CICO accurately log and control with real data points excess caloric intake(since it doesn't matter, apparently) and scale weight and let us all see the results of their experiments.
FTR, I'm participating in this month's ongoing 10 servings a day of fruit/veg challenge going on in the Food section. Would you like to join the rest of us junk food junkies taking part?9 -
geneticexpectations wrote: »That's cool. I understand and accept that there is a difference in perception of what food means to each of us.
Let me ask another hopefully provocative question - and this is in the light that I am a quality over quantity guy, ie, I do "primal" dieting sticking to whole foods, buy all my meats pastured/grassfed from individual farmers etc.
WHO DO THE CEO's OF BIG FOOD LIKE BETTER?
(ie, the people who make billions$$$$ off of non-whole foods, not like the farmers who I buy from who just get by).
Me
or
You (Referring to the people who responded to my recent post).
??????
Why should I care when I have a family to feed and only so much money?5 -
WinoGelato wrote: »geneticexpectations wrote: »That's cool. I understand and accept that there is a difference in perception of what food means to each of us.
Let me ask another hopefully provocative question - and this is in the light that I am a quality over quantity guy, ie, I do "primal" dieting sticking to whole foods, buy all my meats pastured/grassfed from individual farmers etc.
WHO DO THE CEO's OF BIG FOOD LIKE BETTER?
(ie, the people who make billions$$$$ off of non-whole foods, not like the farmers who I buy from who just get by).
Me
or
You (Referring to the people who responded to my recent post).
??????
I'm not sure why you think this would be a provocative question...
It doesn't make a lot of sense, to begin with. Why would a CEO of a company like Nabisco "like" any of us? Do we know them? Do we care whether they "like" us or not?
From an economic perspective, CEO's want to please consumers and thus sell more of their products at a higher profit margin. If you choose not to purchase their products, that is your choice. You are a demographic that is not in their current market share. They can decide whether to try to develop products/marketing tools that does appeal to you as a consumer, or they can ignore you and focus on consumers that they feel they can sell more products at a higher margin too.
I'm not sure what conclusion you thought would be drawn from this scenario?
I grew up in the general vicinity of a Nabisco factory. On days when the wind was right, the smell was amazing. Especially on days when they made Nilla Wafers.7 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »geneticexpectations wrote: »It's odd as I have never noticed number 2 a single time in these boards...
Maybe I worded it badly. Let me try again. I seem to notice on these boards that many (not all, but many) who claim "it's all about CICO" seem to use this as justification to be able to include any food that can be purchased at a store within their diets.
Just once, I'd like to see someone who doesn't think it's all CICO accurately log and control with real data points excess caloric intake(since it doesn't matter, apparently) and scale weight and let us all see the results of their experiments.
FTR, I'm participating in this month's ongoing 10 servings a day of fruit/veg challenge going on in the Food section. Would you like to join the rest of us junk food junkies taking part?
I have been putting that challenge out there for years and none of the "cico does not matter crew" ever take me up on it5 -
geneticexpectations wrote: »
How dramatic.
I've been an actual victim of an actual crime.
I know the difference between being a victim and how I feel throwing a box of Lucky Charms in my shopping cart for my kids.
Not even close.
No one is holding a knife to my throat while I'm buying the cereal, for starters.13 -
geneticexpectations wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »geneticexpectations wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »The only thing CICO adherents want is for people to stop conflating nutrition and weight loss. If you eat too much of the healthiest, cleanest foods, you will not lose weight. In order to lose weight, you need to eat less food energy than your body is using on a daily-ish basis.
To say that the laws of thermodynamics do not apply to the human body is utterly ridiculous. It's akin to saying that we can't measure the distance a car has driven in kilometres because a car is a complex machine with hundreds of moving parts and half a dozen or more onboard computers. A kilometre is a kilometre just like a calorie is a calorie. We do not create energy out of nothing despite being incredibly complex organisms.
CICO is important for people to understand so that they are not frustrated, discouraged or overwhelmed. If you tell someone they can eat all the same foods, just less of them, they are more likely to be successful in their WEIGHT LOSS than if you tell them they have to follow a strict, restrictive food plan, not eat the things they enjoy and eat a whole bunch of things they don't enjoy all while eating less food than they are used to. Baby steps.
I suspect a lot of people's journey mirrors my own: first I reduced my calorie intake. Then, when I found I was not full enough or satiated on the foods I was used to eating due to the smaller portions, I explored nutrient rich, healthier food options that filled me me up for longer periods of time within my reduced calorie budget. Due to necessity, my diet has changed gradually, in a manageable way that I am comfortable with and now includes healthier options than it used to but it all started by altering nothing other than food quantities. Nutrition came after weight loss. I tried your prescribed method for 20 years but weight loss did not follow when I focused on "clean eating" and I'm sure I'm not alone in this experience.
If the laws of thermodynamics were so EASILY applied (of course they can be applied, just not EASILY) to the human body, there is a good chance I will have to find another line of work. I am employed because in practice, the application of these laws of thermodynamics are not translating to a reduction in obesity NOR ARE THEY TRANSLATING TO A REDUCTION OF DISEASE. We are a results oriented profession. We do what works for our patients. Telling them to eat less and move more only seems to translate to REAL WORLD RESULTS in a minority, which is not good enough given the scale of these problems. So we instead switch to what works.
Which methods are these? From what I have researched, all weightloss attempts only work for the minority?
Indeed. And telling people to eat as much good food as they want simply because it's good food is almost certainly going to have less success than telling people to eat less and move more. Based on my REAL WORLD RESULTS, you'll have to provide some evidence to the contrary in order to convince me this is not the case.
Well, hold on, I didn't say that people should "eat as much good food as they want". I'm not at all against the (good!) idea that eating less in general is good for weight loss and longevity (which some literature certainly supports). I have just found that quality is the most important variable because... well you get better quality, but in many cases (not all, as the avocado guy pointed out) quality regulates quantity.
And like I said, some do get weight loss results from "eat less move more", but my concern (which is why I am commenting) is that in those with risk factors (or those who take the eat whatever junk food you want as long as it's less a little too literally), simply losing weight does not protect you from the big ticket diseases that fill my pockets at the end of the day.
So yes, I'm happy for your weight loss results, and those of many on this forum, but in good conscience I do want to share info that could help people take preventative health to another level.
If you are not telling people to eat as much food as they want, you are practicing CICO and all of your posts in this thread are nothing more than you tilting at windmills (strawman arguments that people here do not make) for the sake of being argumentative. Good day.
8 -
Gianfranco_R wrote: »geneticexpectations wrote: »3 points:
1. Some people state that CICO is a law of physics. Technically, the first law of thermodynamics is a law of physics, and a calorie is simply a unit of measurement of raising 1 g of water through 1 degree C IN A BOMB CALORIMETER. We as humans are each a complex biological system, not a bomb calorimeter. While being aware of a general sense of how much one eats is probably a good thing common sense wise, being dogmatic about a bomb calorimeter law for human fat loss is ignoring the complexity of a biological system. We should be looking for laws of BIOLOGY, not laws of physics to guide us.
2. Just a general pattern I have noticed.. again, not a hard and fast rule but a general pattern. Those who shout "it's all about CICO" really seem to like their junk food (although many do include whole foods), and really seem to want to keep junk food in the mix. To my eye, I do wonder if CICO is a fantastic marketing scheme for big food to give people "permission" to keep that junk food hanging around (one would naturally be all inclusive if instructed that quantity trumps quality).
3. I also notice that the "it's all about CICO" folk do tend to exhibit disproportionately negative emotional responses at the mention of "clean eating" or "whole food diets" or the word "paleo". Or at the very least, there will be a lot of sarcasm/hostility/derision in the tone of responses. I don't know why this is. If one is confident in their method, they usually react peacefully to alternative suggestions. I do understand that food is an emotional topic, but I don't see the converse scenario nearly as much (a "clean eater" getting hostile at the suggestion of CICO/everything in moderation). But that could just be my observation.
Now, there certainly are exceptions to my point number 2, as several forum members do say that they like to watch what they eat in addition to how much, but like I said I just noticed this general trend....
There may be many reasons. Perhaps it's the gym subculture, and/or or a sort of anti-intellectualism. Surely it shows a lack of interpersonal skills. Being able to remain civil while expressing disagreement requires a certain level of education.
Ironic post is ironic.7 -
snickerscharlie wrote: »geneticexpectations wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »geneticexpectations wrote: »geneticexpectations wrote: »It's odd as I have never noticed number 2 a single time in these boards...
Maybe I worded it badly. Let me try again. I seem to notice on these boards that many (not all, but many) who claim "it's all about CICO" seem to use this as justification to be able to include any food that can be purchased at a store within their diets.
I don't understand what's wrong with this. You can certainly get in your macros and micros eating any food that can be purchased at a store, it's not necessary to eat "clean", or remove "junk food" (whatever those words even mean) in order to lose weight and stay healthy. This argument continues to baffle me - it's as though people are saying if you eat "processed" food (again whatever that means) all the nutrients are sucked out of it.
Sounds more like someone needs justification on why not to eat it rather than the folks who apparently understand there is nothing wrong with any foods and have no reason to justify eating it, no?
ooooo zing!
Then..... why are you here?
Perhaps @Hornsby is here to monitor his cut or bulk cycles? Because I somehow don't think he just woke up one morning with a physique as incredible as his is.
Not what I was getting at. He was simply flipping the script (which is an emotional response as I outlined in point 3... any emotional behaviour is one in which you probably wouldn't do with a colleague), so I was playing flip the script to point that out.
Then let me flip your question around on you:
Since it appears you don't buy into the CICO premise, why are *you* here on a website that, by design, is based around CICO and calorie counting?
I have benefitted tremendously from being here. One of the biggest obstacles to patient care is... patients. (with respect to weight loss AND health... not just weight loss). Well, more specifically, their outlook and attitudes.
As soon as we're able to educate them and get them on the right track, they get success. But to do that we have to break down their attitude and psychological barriers.
The toughest type of personality we have found in the clinic seem to have the "it's all about the CICO" view point as well. As soon as we can break down the personality that comes with that barrier, we get somewhere, but sometimes we can't get through that barrier.
So on this forum I actually get a high concentration of difficult people to deal with... and get lots of insight into how their minds work. This is actually better than real world training. My success rate in the real world has definitely gone up with my experience here.
Now, certainly not everyone here is a jerk, but wow, on the whole, this is like a training bootcamp!3 -
geneticexpectations wrote: »geneticexpectations wrote: »That's cool. I understand and accept that there is a difference in perception of what food means to each of us.
Let me ask another hopefully provocative question - and this is in the light that I am a quality over quantity guy, ie, I do "primal" dieting sticking to whole foods, buy all my meats pastured/grassfed from individual farmers etc.
WHO DO THE CEO's OF BIG FOOD LIKE BETTER?
(ie, the people who make billions$$$$ off of non-whole foods, not like the farmers who I buy from who just get by).
Me
or
You (Referring to the people who responded to my recent post).
??????
Who do people which care about the environment and people in developing countries who need access to cheap sources of food which do not perish easily like better?
You
or
Me.
I'll give you a clue.
It's not you.
There are many sides to the story with respect to the environment and having a pattern of raiding animals naturally. Many people assume it's a net loss to the environment, but many can argue that industrialization is a net loss.
You're right, people in developing countries need access to cheap food which does not perish easily. Hell, they just need access to food. I do wonder why developED countries want dietary habits of developING countries.
You must have got your clue from a fortune cookie Unless you can provide medical care, they would probably like me better
Sorry, snarky makes me snarky.
No need to apologise for being snarky man. I wouldn't give it out if I couldn't take it back.
So, this medical care you provide. Is it through a private company and / or is there any element of a profit motive? If so should I dismiss the advice you give because it raises the possibility of a conflict of interest?
And you leave my fortune cookie out of this.10 -
geneticexpectations wrote: »geneticexpectations wrote: »geneticexpectations wrote: »
What? That's your slam dunk? Your claim is worthless unless you are willing, or able to show us those said scans and all the context of each patient (diet and lifestyle) that goes with them...
No wasn't meant to be a slam dunk, wham bham thank you ma'am, end of story, and although it was one line, it wasn't meant to be a one liner. Just the most powerful truth as I see it with my own eyes.
But with respect to the info I have at my disposal, it is by far the most powerful demonstration to me. But of course, it has to be limited to just me. Or else privacy laws would have me incarcerated!
So, yes, to you my claim is in fact worthless, unless you are willing to take a leap of faith. Not sure why it is such a huge leap of faith though. You already believe that in general eating less is a good thing, and you seem to believe in the concept that certain foods provide value from a nutrition standpoint. I'm just not sure why it is such a massive woo-like crazymaking stretch to also consider that most foods created with heavy artificial influence actually can be harmful. And there's really nothing to lose by giving up certain foods except taste... and that taste actually turns from positive to negative once the food is eliminated for a period of time. The only thing in my mind (I guess I have to fill in the blanks) to explain this reluctance to consider this concept is that there is an emotional or neurochemical connection/attachment (or perhaps dependence) on having these foods around to warrant a denial to even consider that they may not be compatible with our physiology.
And yes, we cna put together a patient's history with their scan findings, which are NOT subtle.
You assume I have not tried this already while coming to my own conclusion...
No, I think I have read before that you did try way the of eating that I currently do. Or maybe another poster said that about you, I'm not sure.
But I have to ask... was your barometer of success purely fat loss (because clearly by your profile pic, you have achieved that)?? Because that's the point I'm getting at, is that fat loss isn't the whole story of health. Now, if you feel better overall doing what you are doing now and a primal way of eating just didn't agree with you, well, you can't argue with that and everyone's different.
I'm just arguing that as a general trend (not towards you specifically) I'm not sure why it is so taboo to suggest that laying off junk may be a good idea for health given what's at stake... and given that patients cannot see what is inside them, regardless of how they feel or how they look on the outside. The difference can be quite dramatic.
When I tried paleo (3 yrs), physically, I felt no different. The only thing that changed was my cholesterol went up (total, HDL and LDL). Cholesterol ratios were the same so I was not all that concerned. One thing of note that did happen to me was my eating became a bit dis-ordered. I was developing a bit of orthorexia...
I did paleo for a while too, and also felt no different. I liked it fine, but didn't stick with it since I didn't see the point. What I don't think is that I ate better (from a health or nutrition POV) when doing paleo.
What I think is the big reason paleo works for some is that it provides a reason, an ideology, even, that people who otherwise struggle with motivation to stick to a healthful diet can use. For some either thinking there's a huge difference between eating paleo or not, or feeling virtuous because they are eating "clean" or feeling all manly and caveman like or something gives them an added reason.
I get that, I think that's common for lots of diets that work for people (see, e.g., Matt Fitzgerald's Diet Cults). It's just annoying when they then assume that everyone needs that story or confuse the story with the truth (I am on the side of GOOD, because the EVIL FOLKS (CEOs, I guess) would disapprove of how I eat. It's cool, but about as ridiculous as me feeling like I'm doing some good and fighting against things that I'm upset about by spending 10 minutes on the L retweeting and liking various posts on Twitter.7 -
geneticexpectations wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »geneticexpectations wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »geneticexpectations wrote: »geneticexpectations wrote: »It's odd as I have never noticed number 2 a single time in these boards...
Maybe I worded it badly. Let me try again. I seem to notice on these boards that many (not all, but many) who claim "it's all about CICO" seem to use this as justification to be able to include any food that can be purchased at a store within their diets.
I don't understand what's wrong with this. You can certainly get in your macros and micros eating any food that can be purchased at a store, it's not necessary to eat "clean", or remove "junk food" (whatever those words even mean) in order to lose weight and stay healthy. This argument continues to baffle me - it's as though people are saying if you eat "processed" food (again whatever that means) all the nutrients are sucked out of it.
Sounds more like someone needs justification on why not to eat it rather than the folks who apparently understand there is nothing wrong with any foods and have no reason to justify eating it, no?
ooooo zing!
Then..... why are you here?
Perhaps @Hornsby is here to monitor his cut or bulk cycles? Because I somehow don't think he just woke up one morning with a physique as incredible as his is.
Not what I was getting at. He was simply flipping the script (which is an emotional response as I outlined in point 3... any emotional behaviour is one in which you probably wouldn't do with a colleague), so I was playing flip the script to point that out.
Then let me flip your question around on you:
Since it appears you don't buy into the CICO premise, why are *you* here on a website that, by design, is based around CICO and calorie counting?
I have benefitted tremendously from being here. One of the biggest obstacles to patient care is... patients. (with respect to weight loss AND health... not just weight loss). Well, more specifically, their outlook and attitudes.
As soon as I'm able to educate them and get them on the right track, they get success. But to do that I have to break down their attitude and psychological barriers.
The toughest type of personality we have found in the clinic seem to have the "it's all about the CICO" view point as well. As soon as we can break down the personality that comes with that barrier, we get somewhere, but sometimes we can't get through that barrier.
So on this forum I actually get a high concentration of difficult people to deal with... and get lots of insight into how their minds work. This is actually better than real world training. My success rate in the real world has definitely gone up with my experience here.
Now, certainly not everyone here is a jerk, but wow, on the whole, this is like a training bootcamp!
If you don't mind my asking, what is it you do, exactly? Do you work at some sort of weight loss clinic? If not CICO, how do you advise people to lose weight? Do you push certain diet approaches and/or pre-prepared food? Meal plans or products/supplements?3 -
geneticexpectations wrote: »But overall if what works differs from equations that people in labcoats are pouring over in some dark corner of an academic facility, oh well.
This is a weird way to characterize CICO and is either a misunderstanding or a strawman.
I don't think it will help, because these things have been explained before, but:
(1) CICO is not a particular diet. One can lose weight through CICO and also be somewhat neurotic about healthy eating. I have such tendency at times, although I am working on them since I think they are bad for me.
(2) CICO does not mean you have to know the specific CO and CI numbers that are applicable or the specific amount of calories to the decimal point that you get from a particular food. No question no one is exact and the numbers are all off/estimates and that people vary in how many calories they absorb from specific foods (but no one eats a 100 calorie chocolate and actually absorbs 300 calories as some would have it).
Ignoring the rest, since stuff about how "people" act is always one-sided at best and never a useful argument to have. There's nothing to discuss rather than impressions formed by whoever you talk to and what you notice -- rather like an argument over whether Republicans or Dems are meaner to the other side. It's a distraction from a discussion of the real disagreement, whatever it is.2 -
As a newer member here, I have gotten some great information from these forums.
That being said, the CICO posts overall could be taken as "it's ok for me to eat anything." I didn't understand what macro and micro nutrients were, so it's easy to ignore that part when skimming through.
I could see how someone like myself, who never had changed eating habits before would think that I can continue as usual, just stay within the calorie limit. I do understand that I would lose weight, but I would be so hungry. Someone new to this, may experience the same thing and give up quickly.3 -
geneticexpectations wrote: »geneticexpectations wrote: »That's cool. I understand and accept that there is a difference in perception of what food means to each of us.
Let me ask another hopefully provocative question - and this is in the light that I am a quality over quantity guy, ie, I do "primal" dieting sticking to whole foods, buy all my meats pastured/grassfed from individual farmers etc.
WHO DO THE CEO's OF BIG FOOD LIKE BETTER?
(ie, the people who make billions$$$$ off of non-whole foods, not like the farmers who I buy from who just get by).
Me
or
You (Referring to the people who responded to my recent post).
??????
Who do people which care about the environment and people in developing countries who need access to cheap sources of food which do not perish easily like better?
You
or
Me.
I'll give you a clue.
It's not you.
There are many sides to the story with respect to the environment and having a pattern of raiding animals naturally. Many people assume it's a net loss to the environment, but many can argue that industrialization is a net loss.
You're right, people in developing countries need access to cheap food which does not perish easily. Hell, they just need access to food. I do wonder why developED countries want dietary habits of developING countries.
You must have got your clue from a fortune cookie Unless you can provide medical care, they would probably like me better
Sorry, snarky makes me snarky.
No need to apologise for being snarky man. I wouldn't give it out if I couldn't take it back.
So, this medical care you provide. Is it through a private company and / or is there any element of a profit motive? If so should I dismiss the advice you give because it raises the possibility of a conflict of interest?
And you leave my fortune cookie out of this.
You are clearly not a jerk. I actually do apologize now. Our health care is mostly public where I'm from. Private clinics are limited and I don't have one.
You should always dismiss the advice anyone on an internet forum gives you , but if you do find that you are questioning something or are curious, always best to research in that direction and maybe even give it a whirl firsthand if you want.
2 -
geneticexpectations wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »geneticexpectations wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »geneticexpectations wrote: »geneticexpectations wrote: »It's odd as I have never noticed number 2 a single time in these boards...
Maybe I worded it badly. Let me try again. I seem to notice on these boards that many (not all, but many) who claim "it's all about CICO" seem to use this as justification to be able to include any food that can be purchased at a store within their diets.
I don't understand what's wrong with this. You can certainly get in your macros and micros eating any food that can be purchased at a store, it's not necessary to eat "clean", or remove "junk food" (whatever those words even mean) in order to lose weight and stay healthy. This argument continues to baffle me - it's as though people are saying if you eat "processed" food (again whatever that means) all the nutrients are sucked out of it.
Sounds more like someone needs justification on why not to eat it rather than the folks who apparently understand there is nothing wrong with any foods and have no reason to justify eating it, no?
ooooo zing!
Then..... why are you here?
Perhaps @Hornsby is here to monitor his cut or bulk cycles? Because I somehow don't think he just woke up one morning with a physique as incredible as his is.
Not what I was getting at. He was simply flipping the script (which is an emotional response as I outlined in point 3... any emotional behaviour is one in which you probably wouldn't do with a colleague), so I was playing flip the script to point that out.
Then let me flip your question around on you:
Since it appears you don't buy into the CICO premise, why are *you* here on a website that, by design, is based around CICO and calorie counting?
I have benefitted tremendously from being here. One of the biggest obstacles to patient care is... patients. (with respect to weight loss AND health... not just weight loss). Well, more specifically, their outlook and attitudes.
As soon as I'm able to educate them and get them on the right track, they get success. But to do that I have to break down their attitude and psychological barriers.
The toughest type of personality we have found in the clinic seem to have the "it's all about the CICO" view point as well. As soon as we can break down the personality that comes with that barrier, we get somewhere, but sometimes we can't get through that barrier.
So on this forum I actually get a high concentration of difficult people to deal with... and get lots of insight into how their minds work. This is actually better than real world training. My success rate in the real world has definitely gone up with my experience here.
Now, certainly not everyone here is a jerk, but wow, on the whole, this is like a training bootcamp!
If you don't mind my asking, what is it you do, exactly? Do you work at some sort of weight loss clinic? If not CICO, how do you advise people to lose weight? Do you push certain diet approaches and/or pre-prepared food? Meal plans or products/supplements?
I mostly interpret scans for all kinds of things, but do see patients face to face too. But more importantly, within the public health care system we function as a team of physicians intent on applying evidence based medicine in combination with things that just plain work in general patient care. We are certainly not a dedicated weigh loss center at all, just a network of hospitals. I happen to have an interest in preventative medicine also. But this isn't unique to us, this is happening everywhere. At the health prevention level, the effects of diet are starting to be exposed and the gig is up on conventional outdated nutrition advice, and physicians are getting on board.
Not a clinic, we are mostly hospital based. I posted a few pages back on the gist of the different methods our health care team tries, but the most important thing is to focus on how an individual responds to different methods in every practice.
While many of us are advocates of whole foods and even ancestral health, none of us try to push, just to educate. We just suggest what seems to work, and sometimes, the patient has tried everything conventional and is more open minded at that point to things that seem contrary to what they have been told for the last 50 years.
No supplements or meal plans or products or pre-prepared anything. Although you've just given me an idea... kidding.1 -
geneticexpectations wrote: »geneticexpectations wrote: »3 points:
1. Some people state that CICO is a law of physics. Technically, the first law of thermodynamics is a law of physics, and a calorie is simply a unit of measurement of raising 1 g of water through 1 degree C IN A BOMB CALORIMETER. We as humans are each a complex biological system, not a bomb calorimeter. While being aware of a general sense of how much one eats is probably a good thing common sense wise, being dogmatic about a bomb calorimeter law for human fat loss is ignoring the complexity of a biological system. We should be looking for laws of BIOLOGY, not laws of physics to guide us.
2. Just a general pattern I have noticed.. again, not a hard and fast rule but a general pattern. Those who shout "it's all about CICO" really seem to like their junk food (although many do include whole foods), and really seem to want to keep junk food in the mix. To my eye, I do wonder if CICO is a fantastic marketing scheme for big food to give people "permission" to keep that junk food hanging around (one would naturally be all inclusive if instructed that quantity trumps quality).
3. I also notice that the "it's all about CICO" folk do tend to exhibit disproportionately negative emotional responses at the mention of "clean eating" or "whole food diets" or the word "paleo". Or at the very least, there will be a lot of sarcasm/hostility/derision in the tone of responses. I don't know why this is. If one is confident in their method, they usually react peacefully to alternative suggestions. I do understand that food is an emotional topic, but I don't see the converse scenario nearly as much (a "clean eater" getting hostile at the suggestion of CICO/everything in moderation). But that could just be my observation.
Now, there certainly are exceptions to my point number 2, as several forum members do say that they like to watch what they eat in addition to how much, but like I said I just noticed this general trend....
1. Both CICO and the first law of thermo are applications of the law of conservation of energy. The complexity of the system has no influence on the underlying laws of physics. Everything that exists in the universe obeys these laws, including all organic matter. Please feel free to rebut by providing an example of a biological system that does not obey the laws of physics (this is a rhetorical request, please do not put a lot of effort into searching for such an example). As a trained and experienced scientist, yes, I am dogmatic about the laws of physics. Note that the laws of physics do not make any statements about your health. Developing a better understanding of biochemistry and nutrition is great, but you will not find any magic loopholes hiding in there that invalidate fundamental physics.
2. I disagree with your conclusion. I observe that the most vocal proponents of CICO are often the most educated and accomplished in their fitness and nutrition goals. They are the most likely to recommend the same advice you would get from a registered dietitian. If you are going to state that CICO is a marketing conspiracy, at least provide some evidence.
3. It is very difficult to assess emotion through text. What is my emotional state right now? There is always a lot of sarcasm/hostility/derision in all Internet forums, whatever the topic is. That is just humans being human. It is not a coincidence that you perceive favorable traits in those who agree with your opinions.geneticexpectations wrote: »Ok. I'll reword the question.
WHO DO CEO's of BIG FOOD LIKE BETTER TO MAKE THEIR BUSINESS PLAN WORK???
People who think some foods are healthy and other foods are not?
or
People who think food is food
?????
Not sure where you live, but in my country the marketing of large food companies has always directly addressed current public opinion, whether that be low-fat, gluten-free, no added sugar, or whatever the trend du jour happens to be. Yesterday I saw a Panera ad that stated that their food is 100% clean, whatever that is supposed to mean. Fast food chains have been increasingly adopting "healthy" marketing bulletpoints for many years now.
1. What I was saying is that law or no law, results trump all. Of course I had to take physics and biochem etc as well, and I appreciate the principles. But when application of these "black box" principles fails most patients, you don't be stubborn as a professional and keep insisting that method. I do what works and do what is sustainable. And yes, sometimes, that is pure CICO if that's the only way the results happen. But often times, no it's not. But overall if what works differs from equations that people in labcoats are pouring over in some dark corner of an academic facility, oh well.
2. I didn't state CICO was a conspiracy. In my exact words, which you quoted, I started the sentence off with "To my eye". And in my practice, advice from registered dieticians is mostly what screws up the health and nutrition of patients and sends them to our office in the first place, because those dieticians just promote the popular "guidelines", which are atrociously bad. Being on par with registered dieticians in our jurisdiction is not an endorsement. It is an indictment.
3. To clarify: Firstly, the emotional responses I was describing are not just limited to the internet. Secondly, with respect to those who share my opinions, I do not observe how they are towards me, but towards those whose opinions differ from them.
1. What you are talking about now is adherence tactics, which is a very different topic than physical laws. What "works" is physically forcing a person to adhere to an energy balance. Aside from that, it is more of a crapshoot as to what strategies any given individual will comply with. You can give people knowledge and potential implementation strategies based on statistical success rates, but the rest is up to the individual. If you can find an adherence tactic that produces above average compliance results, then there is no doubt that you can make a lot of money selling that idea.
2. RDs are the best and most consistent nutrition experts that we have on a formal level. Barring an individual specific pathology, your patients are not actually following their RDs advice if they are experiencing declining health related to diet. Can you give an example of the atrociously bad guidelines that are official RD policy?
3. In-group favoritism is a cognitive bias that exists in the physical world as well as online. You clearly have a position, so how did you disentangle your own bias from your perception?7 -
geneticexpectations wrote: »geneticexpectations wrote: »3 points:
1. Some people state that CICO is a law of physics. Technically, the first law of thermodynamics is a law of physics, and a calorie is simply a unit of measurement of raising 1 g of water through 1 degree C IN A BOMB CALORIMETER. We as humans are each a complex biological system, not a bomb calorimeter. While being aware of a general sense of how much one eats is probably a good thing common sense wise, being dogmatic about a bomb calorimeter law for human fat loss is ignoring the complexity of a biological system. We should be looking for laws of BIOLOGY, not laws of physics to guide us.
2. Just a general pattern I have noticed.. again, not a hard and fast rule but a general pattern. Those who shout "it's all about CICO" really seem to like their junk food (although many do include whole foods), and really seem to want to keep junk food in the mix. To my eye, I do wonder if CICO is a fantastic marketing scheme for big food to give people "permission" to keep that junk food hanging around (one would naturally be all inclusive if instructed that quantity trumps quality).
3. I also notice that the "it's all about CICO" folk do tend to exhibit disproportionately negative emotional responses at the mention of "clean eating" or "whole food diets" or the word "paleo". Or at the very least, there will be a lot of sarcasm/hostility/derision in the tone of responses. I don't know why this is. If one is confident in their method, they usually react peacefully to alternative suggestions. I do understand that food is an emotional topic, but I don't see the converse scenario nearly as much (a "clean eater" getting hostile at the suggestion of CICO/everything in moderation). But that could just be my observation.
Now, there certainly are exceptions to my point number 2, as several forum members do say that they like to watch what they eat in addition to how much, but like I said I just noticed this general trend....
1. Both CICO and the first law of thermo are applications of the law of conservation of energy. The complexity of the system has no influence on the underlying laws of physics. Everything that exists in the universe obeys these laws, including all organic matter. Please feel free to rebut by providing an example of a biological system that does not obey the laws of physics (this is a rhetorical request, please do not put a lot of effort into searching for such an example). As a trained and experienced scientist, yes, I am dogmatic about the laws of physics. Note that the laws of physics do not make any statements about your health. Developing a better understanding of biochemistry and nutrition is great, but you will not find any magic loopholes hiding in there that invalidate fundamental physics.
2. I disagree with your conclusion. I observe that the most vocal proponents of CICO are often the most educated and accomplished in their fitness and nutrition goals. They are the most likely to recommend the same advice you would get from a registered dietitian. If you are going to state that CICO is a marketing conspiracy, at least provide some evidence.
3. It is very difficult to assess emotion through text. What is my emotional state right now? There is always a lot of sarcasm/hostility/derision in all Internet forums, whatever the topic is. That is just humans being human. It is not a coincidence that you perceive favorable traits in those who agree with your opinions.geneticexpectations wrote: »Ok. I'll reword the question.
WHO DO CEO's of BIG FOOD LIKE BETTER TO MAKE THEIR BUSINESS PLAN WORK???
People who think some foods are healthy and other foods are not?
or
People who think food is food
?????
Not sure where you live, but in my country the marketing of large food companies has always directly addressed current public opinion, whether that be low-fat, gluten-free, no added sugar, or whatever the trend du jour happens to be. Yesterday I saw a Panera ad that stated that their food is 100% clean, whatever that is supposed to mean. Fast food chains have been increasingly adopting "healthy" marketing bulletpoints for many years now.
1. What I was saying is that law or no law, results trump all. Of course I had to take physics and biochem etc as well, and I appreciate the principles. But when application of these "black box" principles fails most patients, you don't be stubborn as a professional and keep insisting that method. I do what works and do what is sustainable. And yes, sometimes, that is pure CICO if that's the only way the results happen. But often times, no it's not. But overall if what works differs from equations that people in labcoats are pouring over in some dark corner of an academic facility, oh well.
2. I didn't state CICO was a conspiracy. In my exact words, which you quoted, I started the sentence off with "To my eye". And in my practice, advice from registered dieticians is mostly what screws up the health and nutrition of patients and sends them to our office in the first place, because those dieticians just promote the popular "guidelines", which are atrociously bad. Being on par with registered dieticians in our jurisdiction is not an endorsement. It is an indictment.
3. To clarify: Firstly, the emotional responses I was describing are not just limited to the internet. Secondly, with respect to those who share my opinions, I do not observe how they are towards me, but towards those whose opinions differ from them.
You keep going back to the "in my practice" argument and extrapolating that to the general population. This is an invalid argument. The sample is infinitesimal compared to the general population (or the sub-population of people who have specific issues you would address) and skewed toward those who already have medical issues with no healthy control group.4
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