"You can eat whaver you want, as long as you eat at a deficit" is true, but it's garbage advice.
Replies
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I believe the one thing being overlooked here is macros. Yes, you can eat whatever you want and lose weight provided you are at a calorie deficit. However, what you eat matters as well. For instance if you are trying to lose weight and maintain muscle mass you need to eat a certain amount of protein per day to preserve lean muscle mass while shedding fat. This means a good portion of your calories need to go towards protein leaving less room for eating junk. I perosnally want to lose weight but I want to maintain my muscle mass. This means I need to cut my calories while also maintaining my protein intake. Also, the types of carbs you eat (and amount) can influence insulin sensitivity which can make your body store excess carbs as fat which makes your overall weight loss and body composition not match up. Final thought on this is that healthy food makes you more able to excercise effectively. Now don't get me wrong, I love my nightly chocolate but I make sure to hit my macro targets before indulging. A great plan that I follow is called If It Fits Your Macros (ITFYM). If you are not familiar give it a quick Google search.3
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WinoGelato wrote: »
OK, but you can point them out again. I'm giving you the newbie's point of view on this, btw.Alatariel75 wrote: »We actually have those links, and they get pointed to all the time. Unsurprisingly, they don't seem to get read that much
The brand new newbie has not seen your earlier posts about the stickies, and may not know how to find them or even that they exist. I understand it's tiresome to be complete each time, but it's really really helpful. Some newbies may ignore it, but others will pay attention and go on to success.
Speaking of which, is there a link that answers the question of whether "eat whatever you want..." is good advice? (Serious question.) If it was posted earlier, I didn't notice it.
It sounds like you are saying the newbie has no responsibility to find these things themselves. We are supposed to link the stickies, and address unanswered questions, and provide disclaimers that may or may not be needed, in order to spoon feed the noobs every possible piece of information they can possibly absorb, in every single thread?
Also, those links probably weren't posted in this thread because the OP wasn't asking for help. He was just telling the rest of us how our advice is garbage.
Should probably start charging.2 -
Chef_Barbell wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »
OK, but you can point them out again. I'm giving you the newbie's point of view on this, btw.Alatariel75 wrote: »We actually have those links, and they get pointed to all the time. Unsurprisingly, they don't seem to get read that much The brand new newbie has not seen your earlier posts about the stickies, and may not know how to find them or even that they exist. I understand it's tiresome to be complete each time, but it's really really helpful. Some newbies may ignore it, but others will pay attention and go on to success.
Speaking of which, is there a link that answers the question of whether "eat whatever you want..." is good advice? (Serious question.) If it was posted earlier, I didn't notice it.
It sounds like you are saying the newbie has no responsibility to find these things themselves. We are supposed to link the stickies, and address unanswered questions, and provide disclaimers that may or may not be needed, in order to spoon feed the noobs every possible piece of information they can possibly absorb, in every single thread?
Also, those links probably weren't posted in this thread because the OP wasn't asking for help. He was just telling the rest of us how our advice is garbage.
Should probably start charging.
And cooking for me Chef:).1 -
leanjogreen18 wrote: »Chef_Barbell wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »
OK, but you can point them out again. I'm giving you the newbie's point of view on this, btw.Alatariel75 wrote: »We actually have those links, and they get pointed to all the time. Unsurprisingly, they don't seem to get read that much The brand new newbie has not seen your earlier posts about the stickies, and may not know how to find them or even that they exist. I understand it's tiresome to be complete each time, but it's really really helpful. Some newbies may ignore it, but others will pay attention and go on to success.
Speaking of which, is there a link that answers the question of whether "eat whatever you want..." is good advice? (Serious question.) If it was posted earlier, I didn't notice it.
It sounds like you are saying the newbie has no responsibility to find these things themselves. We are supposed to link the stickies, and address unanswered questions, and provide disclaimers that may or may not be needed, in order to spoon feed the noobs every possible piece of information they can possibly absorb, in every single thread?
Also, those links probably weren't posted in this thread because the OP wasn't asking for help. He was just telling the rest of us how our advice is garbage.
Should probably start charging.
And cooking for me Chef:).
I got you! 3 -
andrewq6100 wrote: »just no twinkie diets please....
I used to be a guy that was "omg no junk (and let me rephrase JUNK for some people)) no high carb empty calorie foods like CANDY BARS GUMMY WORMS ICE CREAMS MCDONALDS once in a while or your diet is ruined" but I tried that and had what is called, for druggies..a RELAPSE...my body was at a point where it felt the need to GAIN the weight back I had lost so in turn I BINGED, because I cut out foods my body was USED to and ENJOYED. Now, even though it's in HEAVY moderation, I do enjoy those things but alas they are not a staple for my weight loss. I would never attribute my personal weight loss to the fact that "I can eat anything as long as i'm in a deficit" because for me that was simply not true. If I had eaten a sweet or candy or cake etc during my initial weight loss even IN a deficit it would for some reason turn on a switch and make me go even harder with the sweets junk etc and would essentially push me OVER my limit. Once I was able to master my mental practice of eating habits then I was able to fit in foods I enjoyed, but until then I had to enact discipline as many do to get it started.
Idc how many people say "well i didn't have to" thats fine because every human is different. But I know a lot of people i've worked with (and no i'm no where NEAR a PT or nutritionist) but they get the FASTEST results and most satisfactory results FROM eating "CLEAN AKA Not trying to worry if a candy bar cake mcdonalds will FIT in their macros". What I mean is that a lot of people doing weight loss PREFER to cut the junk out not because its BAD for them but because its just not needed for their specific goals.
Sure a treat is nice every once in a while but if Person A) want's to get shredded for a competition in 12 weeks and has never done anything in his life remotely close to this, then most likely he is NOT going to want to have anything to do with sweets and mcdonalds because it might SABATOGE his process. I'm not saying it WILL i'm saying from a mental standpoint it could. Again every person is different but I will always point back to this; flexibile dieting is KEY but eating like POOP is not. You can be in a deficit all you want while eating cakes if that's what your into, but some people, like me, prefer to just cut it out because to us, calories in vs calories out counts for a lot more than just a number and a food type.
Sorry, but this is full of nope. Common MFP fallacy, "everyone is different". Nope, everyone must abide by the laws of physics. You will lose weight in a calorie deficit no matter what you eat. My experience here on MFP for the last three years is exactly opposite of what you say, many many more people succeed by NOT restricting as opposed to those who cut out foods or food groups. It's at least 10-1, probably higher. There are so many straw men in this post it needs a warning label as a fire hazard.8 -
I agree with you that, if you asked them, people would say they agree with this. But in practice people are not completely rational, and some are a lot less rational than others. A lot of people are or were looking for some gimmick that will allow them to lose weight and eat anything at all. That's why people keep falling for gimmick diets. In their heads they know a diet of mostly junk food is a bad idea, but they still allow themselves to believe they've found some loophole when they hear it.lemurcat12 wrote: »But what I don't think is that ANYONE, anyone at ALL, thinks that these strawmen diets "only donuts" or "only Whoppers plus lots of fries and milkshakes, no veg" or whatever it is are good, healthy, balanced diets, and they also will realize the calorie issue as soon as they start counting. People know they shouldn't eat tons and tons of junk food -- no one who eats mostly junk food claims they are doing it for health. People also know they should eat vegetables. With the exception of some in the XTreme Keto community ("carnivores"), who would consider themselves educated and don't want my advice, I've yet to come across someone on MFP, even the least informed newby, who doesn't know she should be eating vegetables. They may need to figure out how, but they know they should. Saying they might think that only cake is a reasonable diet is not a real thing, sorry.
From the point of view of veterans, your advice is absolutely clear. From the point of someone who is new to this board, I wanted to say that a lot of the "eat whatever you want" advice can sound different than it's intended.
I actually don't think people think they can do an only junk food diet. Usually, even when they hear it's possible (as with an explanation about the teacher who did the Twinkie diet -- not recommending, of course -- they struggle with disbelief). The fact is they COULD, hypothetically, but of course they would probably be hungry and not be able to sustain it, and they SHOULDN'T because it's not healthy, and they DO know this. They aren't going to try it because I say "no, you can eat bread, eat what you like within your calories" even if I didn't ALSO say "of course what you eat will affect hunger and nutrition, so that you CAN theoretically lose on anything you will want to pay attention to those things." However, I do always say those things, and so do most others who respond. That's why I don't get why you keep telling us our advice is incomplete for not saying things we do say.
I don't think you need to apologize for being new or not agreeing, but I do think you are simply wrong or arguing against a strawman with this "if you don't tell people food choice affects satiety and nutrition they will be too ignorant to figure it out" thing, because people do tell them that (and they know it anyway).
I totally agree that people are often not totally rational and often people are looking to be told what they want to hear: one week on a juice detox and your issues with food will be magically gone and you'll be 20 lbs down, for example. But people who want to eat only junk aren't going to decide to do it or not because I let them in on the truth that they can lose weight doing it if they stick to it (which might be hard).
Also, again, WHY assume that eat what you want within your calories means only (or mostly) junk. I don't assume other people don't want to eat a healthy balanced diet. I do want to. I assume they are adults and can make the choice about nutrition and what satisfies them for themselves.
I wonder if this is in part a male/female thing as sometimes men here (not all, many, many exceptions, but I've noticed it some from some newbies) seem to think people are pretty ignorant about nutrition and likely to do something nuts like eat only cookies or only McD's, and women seem more likely to assume you MUST cut out 87 different foods and go super low cal or do a special diet with complicated food pairing, and all that stuff that women get told all the time from lots of different sources. (Could be totally wrong here, though, and I have seen exceptions on both sides, of coruse.)3 -
Chef_Barbell wrote: »
I agree with you that, if you asked them, people would say they agree with this. But in practice people are not completely rational, and some are a lot less rational than others. A lot of people are or were looking for some gimmick that will allow them to lose weight and eat anything at all. That's why people keep falling for gimmick diets. In their heads they know a diet of mostly junk food is a bad idea, but they still allow themselves to believe they've found some loophole when they hear it.lemurcat12 wrote: »But what I don't think is that ANYONE, anyone at ALL, thinks that these strawmen diets "only donuts" or "only Whoppers plus lots of fries and milkshakes, no veg" or whatever it is are good, healthy, balanced diets, and they also will realize the calorie issue as soon as they start counting. People know they shouldn't eat tons and tons of junk food -- no one who eats mostly junk food claims they are doing it for health. People also know they should eat vegetables. With the exception of some in the XTreme Keto community ("carnivores"), who would consider themselves educated and don't want my advice, I've yet to come across someone on MFP, even the least informed newby, who doesn't know she should be eating vegetables. They may need to figure out how, but they know they should. Saying they might think that only cake is a reasonable diet is not a real thing, sorry.
From the point of view of veterans, your advice is absolutely clear. From the point of someone who is new to this board, I wanted to say that a lot of the "eat whatever you want" advice can sound different than it's intended.
That has nothing to do with the advice. If people are going to hear what they want to hear, then they are not ready. Period.
Also this.3 -
OK, but you can point them out again. I'm giving you the newbie's point of view on this, btw.Alatariel75 wrote: »We actually have those links, and they get pointed to all the time. Unsurprisingly, they don't seem to get read that much The brand new newbie has not seen your earlier posts about the stickies, and may not know how to find them or even that they exist. I understand it's tiresome to be complete each time, but it's really really helpful. Some newbies may ignore it, but others will pay attention and go on to success.
Speaking of which, is there a link that answers the question of whether "eat whatever you want..." is good advice? (Serious question.) If it was posted earlier, I didn't notice it.
You realize none of us are moderators, right? Maybe I'm misreading. But it sounds like you are saying that if I don't feel like addressing every possible variable every time I post, I really should just point them to the stickies and stay out of it?
This is a public forum for a reason. It's not a FAQ.
There is so much value here and so much experience to be learned from and you really just bummed me out.7 -
OK, but you can point them out again. I'm giving you the newbie's point of view on this, btw.Alatariel75 wrote: »We actually have those links, and they get pointed to all the time. Unsurprisingly, they don't seem to get read that much The brand new newbie has not seen your earlier posts about the stickies, and may not know how to find them or even that they exist. I understand it's tiresome to be complete each time, but it's really really helpful. Some newbies may ignore it, but others will pay attention and go on to success.
Speaking of which, is there a link that answers the question of whether "eat whatever you want..." is good advice? (Serious question.) If it was posted earlier, I didn't notice it.
You realize none of us are moderators, right? Maybe I'm misreading. But it sounds like you are saying that if I don't feel like addressing every possible variable every time I post, I really should just point them to the stickies and stay out of it?
This is a public forum for a reason. It's not a FAQ.
There is so much value here and so much experience to be learned from and you really just bummed me out.
It feels like that is implied all too often. Some days I wonder why do I even bother?4 -
Chef_Barbell wrote: »
OK, but you can point them out again. I'm giving you the newbie's point of view on this, btw.Alatariel75 wrote: »We actually have those links, and they get pointed to all the time. Unsurprisingly, they don't seem to get read that much The brand new newbie has not seen your earlier posts about the stickies, and may not know how to find them or even that they exist. I understand it's tiresome to be complete each time, but it's really really helpful. Some newbies may ignore it, but others will pay attention and go on to success.
Speaking of which, is there a link that answers the question of whether "eat whatever you want..." is good advice? (Serious question.) If it was posted earlier, I didn't notice it.
You realize none of us are moderators, right? Maybe I'm misreading. But it sounds like you are saying that if I don't feel like addressing every possible variable every time I post, I really should just point them to the stickies and stay out of it?
This is a public forum for a reason. It's not a FAQ.
There is so much value here and so much experience to be learned from and you really just bummed me out.
It feels like that is implied all too often. Some days I wonder why do I even bother?
IKR? Luckily I do often get thank yous, sometimes in thread and sometimes a PM. But yeah, I understand why some people who used to donate a lot if time here have disappeared.5 -
Chef_Barbell wrote: »
OK, but you can point them out again. I'm giving you the newbie's point of view on this, btw.Alatariel75 wrote: »We actually have those links, and they get pointed to all the time. Unsurprisingly, they don't seem to get read that much The brand new newbie has not seen your earlier posts about the stickies, and may not know how to find them or even that they exist. I understand it's tiresome to be complete each time, but it's really really helpful. Some newbies may ignore it, but others will pay attention and go on to success.
Speaking of which, is there a link that answers the question of whether "eat whatever you want..." is good advice? (Serious question.) If it was posted earlier, I didn't notice it.
You realize none of us are moderators, right? Maybe I'm misreading. But it sounds like you are saying that if I don't feel like addressing every possible variable every time I post, I really should just point them to the stickies and stay out of it?
This is a public forum for a reason. It's not a FAQ.
There is so much value here and so much experience to be learned from and you really just bummed me out.
It feels like that is implied all too often. Some days I wonder why do I even bother?
IKR? Luckily I do often get thank yous, sometimes in thread and sometimes a PM. But yeah, I understand why some people who used to donate a lot if time here have disappeared.
Consigned3 -
Chef_Barbell wrote: »
OK, but you can point them out again. I'm giving you the newbie's point of view on this, btw.Alatariel75 wrote: »We actually have those links, and they get pointed to all the time. Unsurprisingly, they don't seem to get read that much The brand new newbie has not seen your earlier posts about the stickies, and may not know how to find them or even that they exist. I understand it's tiresome to be complete each time, but it's really really helpful. Some newbies may ignore it, but others will pay attention and go on to success.
Speaking of which, is there a link that answers the question of whether "eat whatever you want..." is good advice? (Serious question.) If it was posted earlier, I didn't notice it.
You realize none of us are moderators, right? Maybe I'm misreading. But it sounds like you are saying that if I don't feel like addressing every possible variable every time I post, I really should just point them to the stickies and stay out of it?
This is a public forum for a reason. It's not a FAQ.
There is so much value here and so much experience to be learned from and you really just bummed me out.
It feels like that is implied all too often. Some days I wonder why do I even bother?
IKR? Luckily I do often get thank yous, sometimes in thread and sometimes a PM. But yeah, I understand why some people who used to donate a lot if time here have disappeared.
Seriously. I am glad I was here when people who are now banned were here and freely gave out awesome advice as blunt and direct as it could possibly be.14 -
OK, but you can point them out again. I'm giving you the newbie's point of view on this, btw.Alatariel75 wrote: »We actually have those links, and they get pointed to all the time. Unsurprisingly, they don't seem to get read that much The brand new newbie has not seen your earlier posts about the stickies, and may not know how to find them or even that they exist. I understand it's tiresome to be complete each time, but it's really really helpful. Some newbies may ignore it, but others will pay attention and go on to success.
Speaking of which, is there a link that answers the question of whether "eat whatever you want..." is good advice? (Serious question.) If it was posted earlier, I didn't notice it.
You realize none of us are moderators, right? Maybe I'm misreading. But it sounds like you are saying that if I don't feel like addressing every possible variable every time I post, I really should just point them to the stickies and stay out of it?
This is a public forum for a reason. It's not a FAQ.
There is so much value here and so much experience to be learned from and you really just bummed me out.
This and... the stickies get posted in most threads involving newbies not knowing where to start. So many people sign up for MFP and 5 minutes later post "OK I'm here, tell me what to do lol!!!" without even looking at how to use the site let alone taking a few minutes to look at the information provided in plain view.7 -
ThatUserNameIsAllReadyTaken wrote: »Right here! I would rather have a lot of food than a little bit. If I have some teensy-weensy, tee-niney, pigmy sized pea shaped piece of something magically delicious I will not be satisfied. I save the junk for when I REALLY want it. I may blow my calories that day but man is it ever worth it when I do! Some people really are content with two Oreos or a half-cup of ice cream. I I eat that and it's gonna be on like Donkey-Kong.
I consider this a form of moderation too, though.
One form is eat a serving (or whatever amount regularly fits in your calories) more regularly. For example, I went through a stage where I had about 200 calories for dessert every night. I'd have ice cream or cheese usually, or else a more indulgent dinner.
Another is a rare blow out. There are some things I'm not interested in eating in moderation or are hard to fit -- a Mexican restaurant, Indian restaurant, Ethiopian restaurant, rare multi-course tasting menu at a new place, maybe. So I do them more rarely (at maintenance it doesn't have to be that rarely, as I tend to do a weekend long run and long bike, but depends), but when I do them I don't try to fit a calorie goal or skip the naan and get the tandoori chicken and so on. I eat what I want and without really worrying about it and since it's not something I do weekly regardless of workout it doesn't matter. It's a form of moderation. If I felt like that about ice cream or cake (I really don't, I'd rather just have a sensible amount and not overdo), then I'd follow a similar schedule there. But I wouldn't claim that meant "eat what you want within your calories" didn't work, since that would still be what I was doing.
I love pie, I have it basically on holidays only anymore, because baking it is a bad idea unless I have other people to eat it, and because if I bake it I will want more than a piece. I haven't cut out pie and wouldn't tell anyone else you need to cut out pie. 'Cause that's not so, even though I don't eat much pie anymore.5 -
Chef_Barbell wrote: »Chef_Barbell wrote: »
OK, but you can point them out again. I'm giving you the newbie's point of view on this, btw.Alatariel75 wrote: »We actually have those links, and they get pointed to all the time. Unsurprisingly, they don't seem to get read that much The brand new newbie has not seen your earlier posts about the stickies, and may not know how to find them or even that they exist. I understand it's tiresome to be complete each time, but it's really really helpful. Some newbies may ignore it, but others will pay attention and go on to success.
Speaking of which, is there a link that answers the question of whether "eat whatever you want..." is good advice? (Serious question.) If it was posted earlier, I didn't notice it.
You realize none of us are moderators, right? Maybe I'm misreading. But it sounds like you are saying that if I don't feel like addressing every possible variable every time I post, I really should just point them to the stickies and stay out of it?
This is a public forum for a reason. It's not a FAQ.
There is so much value here and so much experience to be learned from and you really just bummed me out.
It feels like that is implied all too often. Some days I wonder why do I even bother?
IKR? Luckily I do often get thank yous, sometimes in thread and sometimes a PM. But yeah, I understand why some people who used to donate a lot if time here have disappeared.
Seriously. I am glad I was here when people who are now banned were here and freely gave out awesome advice as blunt and direct as it could possibly be.
x1000.2 -
OK, but you can point them out again. I'm giving you the newbie's point of view on this, btw.Alatariel75 wrote: »We actually have those links, and they get pointed to all the time. Unsurprisingly, they don't seem to get read that much The brand new newbie has not seen your earlier posts about the stickies, and may not know how to find them or even that they exist. I understand it's tiresome to be complete each time, but it's really really helpful. Some newbies may ignore it, but others will pay attention and go on to success.
Speaking of which, is there a link that answers the question of whether "eat whatever you want..." is good advice? (Serious question.) If it was posted earlier, I didn't notice it.
Okay, breaking a month of lurking to say this. After years of posting on these boards, including two stickied posts that answer newbie questions that no one reads, I've been told repeatedly that posting links to old threads is rude, mean, insults the intelligence of newbies. I've had bumps to stickied threads so that more people see them marked as spam. I've been called a spammer for posting said links to the intro threads asking for tips. I've been called a troll for using standard copy/paste advice. I've been told that it's mean, rude, nasty, etc to use standard copy/paste advice that tries to cover all the angles. I even have a copy/paste for threads where people post to tell us all that we're rude/mean/terrible for not giving advice the OP wanted to hear because it's so frequent.
What I'm saying @dfwesq is that, no, we cannot win. If we try to answer threads with personalized advice we're either too hasty, too blunt, not enough disclaimers, etc. Try to link newbies to old threads and you're wrong too.
No one can win on these boards. Fortunately a number of people keep trying from different angles. Personally, I like that these boards end up with advice from a variety of viewpoints. People build off of each others' posts and chime in if they feel something has been missed or glossed over. I just can't be *****'ed to do it anymore after being beaten down by threads like this one over the years.
I hope you stick around to point newbies to the stickies, copy/paste links, bump useful threads, etc. instead of just complaining that not enough of us do it. The boards need more people who can.34 -
And you were one of the veterans I was thinking of. Godspeed @diannethegeek :drinker:13
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Chef_Barbell wrote: »
OK, but you can point them out again. I'm giving you the newbie's point of view on this, btw.Alatariel75 wrote: »We actually have those links, and they get pointed to all the time. Unsurprisingly, they don't seem to get read that much The brand new newbie has not seen your earlier posts about the stickies, and may not know how to find them or even that they exist. I understand it's tiresome to be complete each time, but it's really really helpful. Some newbies may ignore it, but others will pay attention and go on to success.
Speaking of which, is there a link that answers the question of whether "eat whatever you want..." is good advice? (Serious question.) If it was posted earlier, I didn't notice it.
In this very section there's this:
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10300319/most-helpful-posts-general-diet-and-weight-loss-help-must-reads#latest
Thank you. I did look at those when I joined, but I didn't see any that addressed the "eat whatever you want..." idea. Are there any that you know of? (Serious question.)
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diannethegeek wrote: »
OK, but you can point them out again. I'm giving you the newbie's point of view on this, btw.Alatariel75 wrote: »We actually have those links, and they get pointed to all the time. Unsurprisingly, they don't seem to get read that much The brand new newbie has not seen your earlier posts about the stickies, and may not know how to find them or even that they exist. I understand it's tiresome to be complete each time, but it's really really helpful. Some newbies may ignore it, but others will pay attention and go on to success.
Speaking of which, is there a link that answers the question of whether "eat whatever you want..." is good advice? (Serious question.) If it was posted earlier, I didn't notice it.
Okay, breaking a month of lurking to say this. After years of posting on these boards, including two stickied posts that answer newbie questions that no one reads, I've been told repeatedly that posting links to old threads is rude, mean, insults the intelligence of newbies. I've had bumps to stickied threads so that more people see them marked as spam. I've been called a spammer for posting said links to the intro threads asking for tips. I've been called a troll for using standard copy/paste advice. I've been told that it's mean, rude, nasty, etc to use standard copy/paste advice that tries to cover all the angles. I even have a copy/paste for threads where people post to tell us all that we're rude/mean/terrible for not giving advice the OP wanted to hear because it's so frequent.
What I'm saying @dfwesq is that, no, we cannot win. If we try to answer threads with personalized advice we're either too hasty, too blunt, not enough disclaimers, etc. Try to link newbies to old threads and you're wrong too.
No one can win on these boards. Fortunately a number of people keep trying from different angles. Personally, I like that these boards end up with advice from a variety of viewpoints. People build off of each others' posts and chime in if they feel something has been missed or glossed over. I just can't be *****'ed to do it anymore after being beaten down by threads like this one over the years.
I hope you stick around to point newbies to the stickies, copy/paste links, bump useful threads, etc. instead of just complaining that not enough of us do it. The boards need more people who can.
I was thinking of you, and your copy/paste "at some point in time, every helpful member of these boards will be called mean... " when I was responding to many of these posts in this thread. I thought about beetlejuicing you in but I'm glad to hear you found it all on your own. You heading back to lurker land?6 -
But...if it actually...has worked....for lots of people....who have lost lots of weight....then HOW is it bad advice?7
This discussion has been closed.
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