"You can eat whaver you want, as long as you eat at a deficit" is true, but it's garbage advice.

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  • 4legsRbetterthan2
    4legsRbetterthan2 Posts: 19,590 MFP Moderator
    If you think that the healthy things in my diary mean I'm not eating what I want? That means you think that NO ONE would ever eat healthy things voluntarily. And what kind of nonsense is that? That's nonsense that leads to falling off the wagon, binging, and yo-yo dieting.

    Admittedly, that is not something I ever really thought of in relation to posters here, and probably should when discussing this on forums. I easily get fruit since I enjoy it, but have a harder time getting veggies in sometimes. My husband on the other hand will not eat a fruit or veggie... period....end of story. People like this do exist.

  • dfwesq
    dfwesq Posts: 592 Member
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    So who has been given these confusing answers? Did you ask a question about what you could eat and get an answer that left you confused?
    Maybe I've misunderstood about what the rules are, but I saw someone else post something to the effect that we're not allowed to go around the boards quoting from other threads. Am I allowed to do that?

    Fwiw, I'm not focused on "eat only junk food". A diet doesn't have to be 100% junk to be unhealthy. I'm not sure I could put a percentage on it, but eating a substantial amount of junk food each day can't be good for you either, and I see lots of posts from people saying they eat that way. (I'm pretty sure I shouldn't clip and post those.)
  • Chef_Barbell
    Chef_Barbell Posts: 6,644 Member
    dfwesq wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    So who has been given these confusing answers? Did you ask a question about what you could eat and get an answer that left you confused?
    Maybe I've misunderstood about what the rules are, but I saw someone else post something to the effect that we're not allowed to go around the boards quoting from other threads. Am I allowed to do that?

    Fwiw, I'm not focused on "eat only junk food". A diet doesn't have to be 100% junk to be unhealthy. I'm not sure I could put a percentage on it, but eating a substantial amount of junk food each day can't be good for you either, and I see lots of posts from people saying they eat that way. (I'm pretty sure I shouldn't clip and post those.)

    Yeah... no. How do you know what's good for another person?
  • VintageFeline
    VintageFeline Posts: 6,771 Member
    dfwesq wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    So who has been given these confusing answers? Did you ask a question about what you could eat and get an answer that left you confused?
    Maybe I've misunderstood about what the rules are, but I saw someone else post something to the effect that we're not allowed to go around the boards quoting from other threads. Am I allowed to do that?

    Fwiw, I'm not focused on "eat only junk food". A diet doesn't have to be 100% junk to be unhealthy. I'm not sure I could put a percentage on it, but eating a substantial amount of junk food each day can't be good for you either, and I see lots of posts from people saying they eat that way. (I'm pretty sure I shouldn't clip and post those.)

    Depends on your definition of junk, which is a pretty arbitrary term. I've had days when that's all I've eaten (take away food from chain outlets for example, or pizza or a ready meal or two) and have hit my macros and a good amount of micros pretty easily. In fact, sometimes my micros are better because I suck pretty hugely at meting those!
  • HeliumIsNoble
    HeliumIsNoble Posts: 1,213 Member
    @Savithny- good points, brilliantly made. You've articulated an unease with "bad/good foods" I share, but can never explain well. I wonder, have you ever encountered this short story on 'healthy' eating? It was published over a hundred years ago, and yet remains oddly relevant today.
  • 4legsRbetterthan2
    4legsRbetterthan2 Posts: 19,590 MFP Moderator
    dfwesq wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    So who has been given these confusing answers? Did you ask a question about what you could eat and get an answer that left you confused?
    Maybe I've misunderstood about what the rules are, but I saw someone else post something to the effect that we're not allowed to go around the boards quoting from other threads. Am I allowed to do that?

    Fwiw, I'm not focused on "eat only junk food". A diet doesn't have to be 100% junk to be unhealthy. I'm not sure I could put a percentage on it, but eating a substantial amount of junk food each day can't be good for you either, and I see lots of posts from people saying they eat that way. (I'm pretty sure I shouldn't clip and post those.)

    Just to help with your question on quoting from other thread:

    That in and of itself is not necessarily a violation. We do have a guideline saying not to attack and stalk other posters, so where people run into trouble is they argue with someone in one discussion, then start bringing it up to pick a fight with them in another. It can be a problem if you cant talk without someone hassling you, and can be a problem in the new thread because others dont know the context and whole story when they get thrown in halfway through the arguement, so adds alot of confusion.

    But if you think of a good example that applies to this discussion feel free to paraphrase it. Talking about advice you have seen given here makes since as the whole thread is about giving good advice.
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    dfwesq wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    So who has been given these confusing answers? Did you ask a question about what you could eat and get an answer that left you confused?
    Maybe I've misunderstood about what the rules are, but I saw someone else post something to the effect that we're not allowed to go around the boards quoting from other threads. Am I allowed to do that?

    I believe it would be fine to link to the thread you think contains confusing advice, as the topic of this thread is that, basically.
    Fwiw, I'm not focused on "eat only junk food". A diet doesn't have to be 100% junk to be unhealthy.

    But that's what the OP was talking about, as I illustrated by quoting it.
    I'm not sure I could put a percentage on it, but eating a substantial amount of junk food each day can't be good for you either, and I see lots of posts from people saying they eat that way. (I'm pretty sure I shouldn't clip and post those.)

    If you were able to eat what you needed to cover nutritional bases (I used to log on Chron and I think it's the best site for that), what difference would it make if you also ate a lot of so-called "junk" (which I am reading as not having much but calories). A lot of people (IMO) are confused in that they focus on not eating "bad" foods (which usually would be totally fine) and ignore other things -- like they never eat bread or pasta, but also rarely eat vegetables. IMO, far healthier to get adequate vegetables, protein, fiber, healthy fats, and also some junk food, than to eat a totally "clean" diet (however you define that) and not eat many veg.)

    Yes, there are some things that probably should be limited anyway (sodium, at least for some people, IMO sat fat, I avoid transfat, etc.), but for most people that's not going to be an issue if you focus on hitting nutritional goals. I think you are reading people saying "I have chocolate every day" or "I have fast food 5 times a week" to mean they eat "a substantial amount of junk food daily" but that might not be so at all.

    The bigger point, though, is that OP was talking about weight loss, NOT nutrition (although I always do bring up nutrition). You can lose weight and not care that much about nutrition, although I wouldn't recommend it. What's wrong or confusing about acknowledging that?

    I get a bit the sense that you think that we shouldn't be honest with people because they might use the true information to make choices you think are bad.

    When threads are about nutrition, there is a lot of good information about nutrition given (there is often good information about nutrition given in "how do I lose weight" threads too, but for more in depth discussions of what nutrition requires -- a rather debated topic -- you do need to go to threads focusing on that.
  • dfwesq
    dfwesq Posts: 592 Member
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    I get a bit the sense that you think that we shouldn't be honest with people because they might use the true information to make choices you think are bad.
    That's not what I think at all. Sorry if I gave that impression. The purpose of my post was to point out that it can be confusing, and that there are a number of us who actually thought the same thing, so it's not a phantom problem.

    Also, I agree with someone who posted earlier, that there might be a lot of undiagnosed eating disorders represented on the boards. There might also be a lot of people who have been diagnosed, but just aren't mentioning it. I think it's good to bear in mind that the person who's reading advice might be one of those people. Fwiw, I saw someone like that posting on the boards recently. She asked for advice and was told basically to eat whatever she wanted and just monitor calories. Then much further down the thread she mentioned that she had an eating disorder.

    Sorry, I'm not able to respond more thoroughly. I appreciate your thoughtful posts though.

  • cmtigger
    cmtigger Posts: 1,450 Member
    kshama2001 wrote: »
    kclaar11 wrote: »
    MontyMuttland wrote: »
    Emily3907 wrote: »
    Chef_Barbell wrote: »
    MontyMuttland wrote: »
    "For things to change, you have to change." (Jim Rohn, 1930-2009).
    This is a fundamental truth and it applies to anyone trying to lose weight and keep it off every bit as much as the formula stating that to lose weight you must burn more calories every day than you consume.
    I was obese for most of my adult life, a serial yo-yo dieter who would try this and that diet, lose some weight and then put it back on again plus more.
    The reason I kept failing is actually very simple. I didn't change. I just did what the diets said I had to do, but they didn't teach me anything. I didn't learn any new eating habits.
    And this is what the OP is getting at with his post.
    If you tell an obese person they can eat what they want providing they stay under their daily calorie allocation, you are just sugar-coating the truth to make it easier to swallow.
    The simple truth is, if you eat nutritionally poor foods as part of a calorie controlled eating plan, then the weight you lose won't just be fat. Sure, you will lose some fat, but some of the weight you will lose is going to be the good part of your body (your muscle tissue, your organs, your skeleton, etc).
    That is the price you pay for eating nutritionally poor foods. They don't contain enough good stuff to maintain the important parts of your body.
    If you are already eating less food to stay under your calorie allocation, then it's even more important than ever that the food you eat had high nutritional value - what the hell else is your body going to use to sustain itself?
    So here is the real deal: if you want to lose weight and keep it off, better start learning some new eating habits.
    New eating habits means making food choices that are nutrient rich.
    Does it mean you can never eat another burger? Of course not, but you'd do far better learning how to make a decent burger yourself rather than eating the total non-food they serve at fast food outlets.
    "For things to change, you have to change."
    Embrace it, do it.
    During 2016 I lost 9 stone (126lb) and now I'm happily maintaining my weight under 11stone.
    I did that by changing my relationship with food and learning new eating habits.
    I don't eat pizza anymore. Why? Because it's nutritionally poor food.
    But I make a mean burger meal, a steak meal and a spaghetti bolognese meal all for less than 500 calories each.
    I learned how to eat well whilst consuming less.
    That's what this is about, and the rest can be summed up like this:
    "Suck it up or stay fat!".

    I don't know how things are done elsewhere but they serve food in fast food restaurants here.

    How is pizza nutritionally poor? It's just bread, sauce, cheese and you can add veggies and make your own. I never understand this argument.

    Agreed. My homemade pepperoni pizza has 524 cals, 51 carbs, 25 fat and 27 protein in 2 slices. I consider that a pretty good macro ratio. Add veggies to that, even better.

    You both illustrate my point perfectly.
    If your average pizza actually was just bread, cheese, veggies then you'd be some way to having a bit of nutrition - but they're not.
    Try reading the ingredients list on some pizza packaging, you'll see the list of stuff going in them is somewhat longer. Then read the nutritional information about those pizzas and see just how "healthy" they are.
    The home-made pizza does sound a ton better, specially the amount of protein there compared to ready-made ones. But I'll make a stab at two slices being what, two sixths of the pizza maybe?
    I've been a fat person remember, fat people don't eat two slices of pizza, they eat whole pizzas. And so do most ordinary people as well. Do you order half pizzas or quarter pizzas in a restaurant? Nope, didn't think so.
    So yeah, two-sixths of a pizza for 524 calories ain't bad, but that's knocking on the door of 1600 calories for the whole pizza.
    And guess who is eating the whole pizza?
    Yep, just about everyone...

    You make a lot of blanket statements about people that do not seem to mesh with anything I have ever seen. I am sorry, but no, just about everyone is not eating the whole pizza. My experience has been that most people could not even stomach a whole pizza. Maybe I am the minority here, but most people I know only eat a few slices of pizza per meal. The only person I know that can eat that much in one sitting is my brother who happens to be 6'3" 350lbs and is very (and happily) obese.

    How many calories in your whole pizzas? Ours have 1280 and when my OH's brother's family is in town, on Pizza Night, several of them will eat a whole pizza and no one but me has less than 5 pieces. (8 pieces in a pizza.)

    That's a lot of pizza. When I was a teenager, and had two teenage siblings, so we were eating more to finish our growing. (I had my last little spurt after 18) and we split two large pizzas for 4-5 of us, depending if everyone was home.

    A regular weeknight dinner by then was a piece of chicken breast, some pasta roni, green salad, and some frozen veggies.

    We were not overweight.
  • cmtigger
    cmtigger Posts: 1,450 Member
    ccsernica wrote: »
    snowflake954 wrote: »
    MontyMuttland wrote: »
    Emily3907 wrote: »
    Chef_Barbell wrote: »
    MontyMuttland wrote: »
    "For things to change, you have to change." (Jim Rohn, 1930-2009).
    This is a fundamental truth and it applies to anyone trying to lose weight and keep it off every bit as much as the formula stating that to lose weight you must burn more calories every day than you consume.
    I was obese for most of my adult life, a serial yo-yo dieter who would try this and that diet, lose some weight and then put it back on again plus more.
    The reason I kept failing is actually very simple. I didn't change. I just did what the diets said I had to do, but they didn't teach me anything. I didn't learn any new eating habits.
    And this is what the OP is getting at with his post.
    If you tell an obese person they can eat what they want providing they stay under their daily calorie allocation, you are just sugar-coating the truth to make it easier to swallow.
    The simple truth is, if you eat nutritionally poor foods as part of a calorie controlled eating plan, then the weight you lose won't just be fat. Sure, you will lose some fat, but some of the weight you will lose is going to be the good part of your body (your muscle tissue, your organs, your skeleton, etc).
    That is the price you pay for eating nutritionally poor foods. They don't contain enough good stuff to maintain the important parts of your body.
    If you are already eating less food to stay under your calorie allocation, then it's even more important than ever that the food you eat had high nutritional value - what the hell else is your body going to use to sustain itself?
    So here is the real deal: if you want to lose weight and keep it off, better start learning some new eating habits.
    New eating habits means making food choices that are nutrient rich.
    Does it mean you can never eat another burger? Of course not, but you'd do far better learning how to make a decent burger yourself rather than eating the total non-food they serve at fast food outlets.
    "For things to change, you have to change."
    Embrace it, do it.
    During 2016 I lost 9 stone (126lb) and now I'm happily maintaining my weight under 11stone.
    I did that by changing my relationship with food and learning new eating habits.
    I don't eat pizza anymore. Why? Because it's nutritionally poor food.
    But I make a mean burger meal, a steak meal and a spaghetti bolognese meal all for less than 500 calories each.
    I learned how to eat well whilst consuming less.
    That's what this is about, and the rest can be summed up like this:
    "Suck it up or stay fat!".

    I don't know how things are done elsewhere but they serve food in fast food restaurants here.

    How is pizza nutritionally poor? It's just bread, sauce, cheese and you can add veggies and make your own. I never understand this argument.

    Agreed. My homemade pepperoni pizza has 524 cals, 51 carbs, 25 fat and 27 protein in 2 slices. I consider that a pretty good macro ratio. Add veggies to that, even better.

    You both illustrate my point perfectly.
    If your average pizza actually was just bread, cheese, veggies then you'd be some way to having a bit of nutrition - but they're not.
    Try reading the ingredients list on some pizza packaging, you'll see the list of stuff going in them is somewhat longer. Then read the nutritional information about those pizzas and see just how "healthy" they are.
    The home-made pizza does sound a ton better, specially the amount of protein there compared to ready-made ones. But I'll make a stab at two slices being what, two sixths of the pizza maybe?
    I've been a fat person remember, fat people don't eat two slices of pizza, they eat whole pizzas. And so do most ordinary people as well. Do you order half pizzas or quarter pizzas in a restaurant? Nope, didn't think so.
    So yeah, two-sixths of a pizza for 524 calories ain't bad, but that's knocking on the door of 1600 calories for the whole pizza.
    And guess who is eating the whole pizza?
    Yep, just about everyone...

    Guess what--I live in Italy and people regularly eat a whole pizza, and they are usually skinny too. How do you explain that?

    Chances are, the pizzas are smaller than a typical American pizza.
    There is a place by my house that makes Italian style pizzas and they are smaller. They also aren't as thick with toppings.
  • southernoregongrape
    southernoregongrape Posts: 117 Member
    This seems to have become the pizza thread. I never saw a pizza, let alone ate one until I was an adult. And it is still not one of my favorite foods since I don't like cooked tomatoes. The endless hours scalding, removing the skin, canning as a youth pretty much turned me off.
  • laurabadams
    laurabadams Posts: 201 Member
    jdb3388 wrote: »
    If you are a 135lb woman that's 5'9 which I think was an example somewhere in this thread, and you're only eating at a 500 calorie deficit, no *kitten* you are gonna be full before you run out of calories. You're small, even if you aren't at your "goal" you are going to feel satiated.

    Hmm...I'm 5'8" & 137#. I've averaged 2800 calories per day over the last 21 days & have lost 4 pounds. My appetite seems insatiable when I'm lifting regularly. I'm always sad to see the bottom of my calorie bucket & feel like it happens too soon.

  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    southernoregongrape wrote: »
    This seems to have become the pizza thread. I never saw a pizza, let alone ate one until I was an adult. And it is still not one of my favorite foods since I don't like cooked tomatoes. The endless hours scalding, removing the skin, canning as a youth pretty much turned me off.

    Heh, every year I think I am going to try to can my extra tomatoes. You are trying to talk me out of it, aren't you!

    ;-)
  • dfwesq
    dfwesq Posts: 592 Member
    4legsRbetterthan2 wrote: »
    Just to help with your question on quoting from other thread:

    That in and of itself is not necessarily a violation. We do have a guideline saying not to attack and stalk other posters, so where people run into trouble is they argue with someone in one discussion, then start bringing it up to pick a fight with them in another. It can be a problem if you cant talk without someone hassling you, and can be a problem in the new thread because others dont know the context and whole story when they get thrown in halfway through the arguement, so adds alot of confusion.

    But if you think of a good example that applies to this discussion feel free to paraphrase it. Talking about advice you have seen given here makes since as the whole thread is about giving good advice.
    Because the examples I'd be quoting are bad examples, I wondered whether it would be fair. I wouldn't want someone quoting me on some other thread where I hadn't voluntarily posted and that I might not even know existed, especially if it was for the purpose of holding me up as a bad example. It also might be considered mocking the poster, which I know is mentioned in the community guidelines.

    The examples I was thinking of aren't cases where I can confirm that people were telling the truth. I'm not looking at people's diaries and don't know if someone really was eating what they claimed to eat, but I don't think it really matters because the people reading those comments don't know either. When we hear "I ate ___ every day and still lost weight" all we know is what they told us. But to summarize a few, one person claimed, in some kind of Supersize Me way, to eat nothing but fast food and sodas and still lose weight. I read someone saying they eat several pastries each day and little in the way of fruit or vegetables and still lost weight. Someone else banked calories every week for a big splurge on booze and ice cream. Someone else said they ate Pop Tarts and supplements. It wasn't clear whether this was all they were eating, but I could be taken that way. It could also have been a joke, but no way to tell. Some of these people were called out, and some not. I didn't catalog all these, so I don't have links. Just going from my memory of reading them.

  • leanjogreen18
    leanjogreen18 Posts: 2,492 Member
    You can post the thread not individual posts.
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    ronjsteele1 wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    southernoregongrape wrote: »
    This seems to have become the pizza thread. I never saw a pizza, let alone ate one until I was an adult. And it is still not one of my favorite foods since I don't like cooked tomatoes. The endless hours scalding, removing the skin, canning as a youth pretty much turned me off.

    Heh, every year I think I am going to try to can my extra tomatoes. You are trying to talk me out of it, aren't you!

    ;-)

    Did you know you can actually freeze tomatoes whole and pull them out as you need them? I prefer to can them, but if someone didn't want to go to the work of doing that, freezing is an excellent option. :)

    Interesting, I did not know that.

    I do want to learn to can, but if I'm again too lazy I will freeze.
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    leanjogreen18 wrote: »
    You can post the thread not individual posts.

    Yes--since the claim is that the advice given as a whole is confusing and unhelpful I think the thread is what's important. Often people don't repeat things already said, so pulling a post out of context would IMO be unfair.
  • wizzybeth
    wizzybeth Posts: 3,578 Member
    Sigh
This discussion has been closed.

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