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I don't support the fat acceptance/plus size movement.
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Why should poor people get the same quality care as rich people? That doesn't even make sense. There are benefits to being rich, you get private hospital suites and name brand meds while the poor have to share a room and get generic drugs. I see no problem with that.comptonelizabeth wrote: »
But is it of the same quality as those who "have a good job that offers insurance "? If yes,then fine,but if not then surely you can see how unjust that is? Those with health problems are those most likely to be unable to work and therefore unable to buy health insurance .peckchris3267 wrote: »
Yes, I believe people should pay for their medical needs until they can no longer do so, them the government takes over. I absolutely believe this is how it should go. If you have a good job that offers insurance and you choose not to purchase it because it might tighten your budget more than you would like, there are consequences to that decision. If you are below the poverty level you will get free health care. If you have insurance and you max it out you should have to liquidate your assets to pay your medical bills. Bottom line, no one is being left out to die .peckchris3267 wrote: »I also know of plenty of places to get free or affordable healthcare, emergency rooms have to treat serious injuries, poor people quality for Medicaid, when your insurance runs out and you run out of resources, you will also qualify for Medicaid. I have first hand experience with this. I have done very well and been down and out. When I was down and out my daughters and I were on food stamps, Medicaid, and other welfare. We stayed on them until I got back up on my feet again. Some people here just don't want this to be true.
"Plenty of places" for free and affordable healthcare? Please enlighten us.
So you think that people having to wait until their life is in danger to go to the ER for "free" medical care for a problem that could have been easily addressed with preventive care is a viable, economical solution to the healthcare crisis? Really?
So people are supposed to run to the ER because it's the only place they can't be turned away, bankrupt themselves will the medical bills they rack up there, lose all their assets, then sign up for Medicaid now that they have nothing left in life, so they can finally get free care outside of the ER? And you think that's a good, economical, working system? That's back-*kitten*-wards. Mind-boggling.
Also I would hope that civilised societies can aspire to more than simply making sure people don't die! What about quality of life,what about being able to work at all (ie not being prevented from doing so by ill health)
The poor are still getting treatment.
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The poor are still getting *some* treatment. Whether or not it's adequate is another matter.1
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This guy here thinks it's good for society if the middle class goes broke with medical debt, forcing more and more people into a demoralized, marginalized poverty class. Interesting. What we have in that case is a scenario of rich people with awesome care, poor people with adequate care, and people in the middle with marginal to no care, struggling to maintain their status (forget about improving their standard of living.) That sounds peachy. The more poor people we have, the more assistance will be needed. It won't just be "free" healthcare at that point. You're going to have to supplement everything.14
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Then I give up. There is no hope for the world.peckchris3267 wrote: »
Why should poor people get the same quality care as rich people? That doesn't even make sense. There are benefits to being rich, you get private hospital suites and name brand meds while the poor have to share a room and get generic drugs. I see no problem with that.comptonelizabeth wrote: »
But is it of the same quality as those who "have a good job that offers insurance "? If yes,then fine,but if not then surely you can see how unjust that is? Those with health problems are those most likely to be unable to work and therefore unable to buy health insurance .peckchris3267 wrote: »
Yes, I believe people should pay for their medical needs until they can no longer do so, them the government takes over. I absolutely believe this is how it should go. If you have a good job that offers insurance and you choose not to purchase it because it might tighten your budget more than you would like, there are consequences to that decision. If you are below the poverty level you will get free health care. If you have insurance and you max it out you should have to liquidate your assets to pay your medical bills. Bottom line, no one is being left out to die .peckchris3267 wrote: »I also know of plenty of places to get free or affordable healthcare, emergency rooms have to treat serious injuries, poor people quality for Medicaid, when your insurance runs out and you run out of resources, you will also qualify for Medicaid. I have first hand experience with this. I have done very well and been down and out. When I was down and out my daughters and I were on food stamps, Medicaid, and other welfare. We stayed on them until I got back up on my feet again. Some people here just don't want this to be true.
"Plenty of places" for free and affordable healthcare? Please enlighten us.
So you think that people having to wait until their life is in danger to go to the ER for "free" medical care for a problem that could have been easily addressed with preventive care is a viable, economical solution to the healthcare crisis? Really?
So people are supposed to run to the ER because it's the only place they can't be turned away, bankrupt themselves will the medical bills they rack up there, lose all their assets, then sign up for Medicaid now that they have nothing left in life, so they can finally get free care outside of the ER? And you think that's a good, economical, working system? That's back-*kitten*-wards. Mind-boggling.
Also I would hope that civilised societies can aspire to more than simply making sure people don't die! What about quality of life,what about being able to work at all (ie not being prevented from doing so by ill health)
The poor are still getting treatment.
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peckchris3267 wrote: »
Why should poor people get the same quality care as rich people? That doesn't even make sense. There are benefits to being rich, you get private hospital suites and name brand meds while the poor have to share a room and get generic drugs. I see no problem with that.comptonelizabeth wrote: »
But is it of the same quality as those who "have a good job that offers insurance "? If yes,then fine,but if not then surely you can see how unjust that is? Those with health problems are those most likely to be unable to work and therefore unable to buy health insurance .peckchris3267 wrote: »
Yes, I believe people should pay for their medical needs until they can no longer do so, them the government takes over. I absolutely believe this is how it should go. If you have a good job that offers insurance and you choose not to purchase it because it might tighten your budget more than you would like, there are consequences to that decision. If you are below the poverty level you will get free health care. If you have insurance and you max it out you should have to liquidate your assets to pay your medical bills. Bottom line, no one is being left out to die .peckchris3267 wrote: »I also know of plenty of places to get free or affordable healthcare, emergency rooms have to treat serious injuries, poor people quality for Medicaid, when your insurance runs out and you run out of resources, you will also qualify for Medicaid. I have first hand experience with this. I have done very well and been down and out. When I was down and out my daughters and I were on food stamps, Medicaid, and other welfare. We stayed on them until I got back up on my feet again. Some people here just don't want this to be true.
"Plenty of places" for free and affordable healthcare? Please enlighten us.
So you think that people having to wait until their life is in danger to go to the ER for "free" medical care for a problem that could have been easily addressed with preventive care is a viable, economical solution to the healthcare crisis? Really?
So people are supposed to run to the ER because it's the only place they can't be turned away, bankrupt themselves will the medical bills they rack up there, lose all their assets, then sign up for Medicaid now that they have nothing left in life, so they can finally get free care outside of the ER? And you think that's a good, economical, working system? That's back-*kitten*-wards. Mind-boggling.
Also I would hope that civilised societies can aspire to more than simply making sure people don't die! What about quality of life,what about being able to work at all (ie not being prevented from doing so by ill health)
The poor are still getting treatment.
In some cases, the poor wouldn't even get the generic drug. There are conditions like mine where you'd only get the first tier of treatment instead of the second tier of treatment (which I'm on) and thus have to settle for a secondary quality of life.
There are expensive medications that aren't a matter of generic vs. brand. They simply wouldn't be an option at all.12 -
peckchris3267 wrote: »
Of course I do but the difference is in countries with socialized medicine, the government starts paying right away for everyone at the expense of the tax payer. In the US you would have to max out your insurance first then run out of assets, THEN the government takes over. Huge difference.peckchris3267 wrote: »
Yes, I believe people should pay for their medical needs until they can no longer do so, them the government takes over. I absolutely believe this is how it should go. If you have a good job that offers insurance and you choose not to purchase it because it might tighten your budget more than you would like, there are consequences to that decision. If you are below the poverty level you will get free health care. If you have insurance and you max it out you should have to liquidate your assets to pay your medical bills. Bottom line, no one is being left out to die .peckchris3267 wrote: »I also know of plenty of places to get free or affordable healthcare, emergency rooms have to treat serious injuries, poor people quality for Medicaid, when your insurance runs out and you run out of resources, you will also qualify for Medicaid. I have first hand experience with this. I have done very well and been down and out. When I was down and out my daughters and I were on food stamps, Medicaid, and other welfare. We stayed on them until I got back up on my feet again. Some people here just don't want this to be true.
"Plenty of places" for free and affordable healthcare? Please enlighten us.
So you think that people having to wait until their life is in danger to go to the ER for "free" medical care for a problem that could have been easily addressed with preventive care is a viable, economical solution to the healthcare crisis? Really?
So people are supposed to run to the ER because it's the only place they can't be turned away, bankrupt themselves will the medical bills they rack up there, lose all their assets, then sign up for Medicaid now that they have nothing left in life, so they can finally get free care outside of the ER? And you think that's a good, economical, working system? That's back-*kitten*-wards. Mind-boggling.
You do know that "the government takes over." means all the people working and paying taxes are now paying for that "free" health care - right? You do know that's how the government gets money-right?
How does it benefit society if middle and working class people are regularly liquidating their assets to obtain medical care? This is money that could be used for vocational training, purchasing a home, or going to college. How are we better off if illness frequently means bankruptcy?16 -
This thread has gone waaay off the topic of body positivity...surprised it hasn't been nuked yet.2
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And let's not forget, having a population that's as healthy as possible also benefits everyone. When the people around me are healthy, I'm less likely to get sick.
Additionally, people who are wealthy/successful did NOT get there entirely on their own merits. Sure, they probably worked very hard to get where they did. But they lived in a society that invested in them and provided them with opportunities to work hard and use their abilities. It is not unreasonable to suggest that they have a corresponding debt to that society for those investments.14 -
Well.. I am fat. In my late 40's And my numbers are all good. My sugar is in the normal range, so is my cholesterol. My resting heart rate is generally between 56 and 68 if I am truly at rest which isn't often. I can go from a heart rate of 140 under heavy work to 74 in about a minute. I walk an average of 14k steps a day sometimes more and occasionally far less when I decide to take a rest day. I can easily pick up and carry 100 pounds. I am stronger that most women and a lot of men.
In general my PCP says I am quite healthy but that doesn't mean I shouldn't be working on losing the excess weight.
Most overweight people are aware that they are overweight. They don't need people beating them over the head with it. Changing your body is no more easy than changing yourself at the core level. It is one thing to know what you need to do and it is quite another to do it. I had to fix a lot of other things in my life before I was remotely ready to tackle my weight and food issues. And the first thing I had to fix was the people I surrounded myself with. Those people didn't shame me because of my weight bit they also didn't pretend it wasn't a thing. They allowed me to be who I was and accepted me as I was. When I thought I had to have some health issue causing me to be at a high weight they just encouraged me to get medical evaluations to find out if it were true. They have supported me with encouragement and compliments when I started to finally lose weight and never said I told you so.
Overweight people don't need your support but we sure as hack don't need you in our face loudly Not supporting them.
You (OP) are the kind of person I kicked out of my life. Nobody needs that. It isn't helpful. And if you need to be that way to feel good about yourself you might want to take some time to explore why that is.
Fat acceptance is not so much to say that being overweight is okay. It is to say that people should not be judged based on their particular problems which for fat people can be many and complex and their weight is just a symptom.5 -
wsandy8512 wrote: »I think the basic message of the movement is great, "love yourself", but where it's heading lately is what object to...
"Real women have curves", "Real men prefer meat, not bones", "Why don't they show a 'real' woman in that bathing suit (when the model isn't heavy)", etc.
It's turned from a loving yourself regardless of overweight/obese campaign, to bashing women of normal and healthy weights. "Real" women come in all shapes and sizes, period.
This
At my heaviest people were directing me to FA websites and BBW sites
While i agree that all humans are beautiful in thier own way and should be allowed to feel beautiful (hello days of only being able to wear frumpy potato sacks) many in the FA movement have twisted it and openly spew hatred towards those of a healthy BMI
You do not improve your confidence by dragging others down and after reading such bile i rejected calls to join them, never attended any bbw nights (who wants to be treated as just a fetish anyway) and renewed my resolve to lose weight for my own reasons, it just took a long time wading thru bullcrap and woo to find the way5 -
Health at every size morphed into healthcare at every salary. Holy thread derailment, Batman!7
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stevencloser wrote: »estherdragonbat wrote: »I hope you're not implying that people who need socialized medicine are lazy or flighty like the grasshopper in said fable. Pity there isn't a third character in there who works and sweats and scrimps and saves... but because of a large family, a need to flee predators, thieves stealing thier food stores, etc. finds themself with insufficient food to get through the winter and now faces, not only starvation but the stigma of being judged a lazy parasite.
An evaluation needs to take place in each case, especially when attempting to take resources by force from one party to another. Otherwise you are replacing justice of law with....what exactly is your rationale for this theft? Taking from those who have done no wrong and giving to those who have not been wronged?
Your third character would and should rely on charity and give their fellow man the opportunity to be charitable.
I'd love it if it was feasible that fellow men had the opportunity to be charitable. From what I'm seeing in cases where that is actually completely voluntary, I'd be very generous in saying that 99% of people asked to give to charities for people who are literally starving to death turn that plea down. You can't have nationwide medical care for people unable to provide it for themselves rely on voluntary charity like that.
I work every weekend in a free clinic solely staffed by volunteer medical professionals and supplied with products from the pharmaceutical industry. These exist in every nearly every city in the United States.
There are a few alternatives to insurance springing up now that share in medical costs and bypass insurance - most of which are dramatically cheaper than comparable insurance policies. The insurance lobby is doing everything in it's power to stop this from happening.
GoFundMe has been remarkably effective in mitigating financial ruin and relies solely on charity.
LOL - I think you mean every major city. There aren't any free clinics anywhere near where I live. There's a county clinic an hour away, but it's not free - it's reduced cost if you're uninsured - but you have to have a certain income level to qualify to use the services.
Yep, same here. My household isn't poor enough for Medicaid or free clinics, but is also not wealthy enough to afford ER trips, Urgent Care, or primary care. It's a crappy place to be. We only get treatment when we absolutely have to. For me, about three years ago when I had pink eye.5 -
Regarding the OP:
I think the important thing about the fat acceptance movement is NOT about saying 'yes, it's fine to be super obese'. I see it more as a mental health statement. When we accept ourselves, we can then becomes agents of change. For example, it's the first step of AA: "We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable." It's the same with our bodies. In accepting that I am a fatass, I now know what the target is and can work towards solutions. Our mental health is absolutely vital to our overall health and successes. If we don't embrace ourselves as we are, we can never truly be a better version of ourself.3 -
https://www.naafaonline.com/dev2/about/
NAAFA: the National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance
Founded in 1969, the National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance (NAAFA) is a non-profit, all volunteer, civil rights organization dedicated to protecting the rights and improving the quality of life for fat people. NAAFA works to eliminate discrimination based on body size and provide fat people with the tools for self-empowerment through advocacy, public education, and support.
Why Should I Support NAAFA?
Fat people are discriminated against in all aspects of daily life, from employment to education to access to public accommodations, and even access to adequate medical care. This discrimination occurs despite evidence that 95 to 98 percent of diets fail over five years and that 65 million Americans are labeled “obese.” Our thin-obsessed society firmly believes that fat people are at fault for their size and it is politically correct to stigmatize and ridicule them. Fat discrimination is one of the last publicly accepted discriminatory practices. Fat people have rights and they need to be upheld!
NAAFA’s message of size acceptance and self-acceptance is often overshadowed by a $49 billion-a-year diet industry that has a vested economic interest in perpetuating discrimination against fat people. Without active financial support from people like you, NAAFA would not exist and could not fulfill its crucial role defending your rights. While it is an uphill battle to achieve our goals, together we are making a difference.
Our Vision
A society in which people of every size are accepted with dignity and equality in all aspects of life.
Our Mission
To eliminate discrimination based on body size and provide fat people with the tools for self-empowerment though public education, advocacy, and support.
Our Promise
NAAFA will be a powerful force for positive social change. Using our collective will, talents and resources, we will improve the world — not just for fat people, but for everyone.
We Come in All Sizes…
Understand it.
Support it.
Accept it.0 -
peckchris3267 wrote: »https://www.naafaonline.com/dev2/about/
NAAFA: the National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance
Founded in 1969, the National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance (NAAFA) is a non-profit, all volunteer, civil rights organization dedicated to protecting the rights and improving the quality of life for fat people. NAAFA works to eliminate discrimination based on body size and provide fat people with the tools for self-empowerment through advocacy, public education, and support.
Why Should I Support NAAFA?
Fat people are discriminated against in all aspects of daily life, from employment to education to access to public accommodations, and even access to adequate medical care. This discrimination occurs despite evidence that 95 to 98 percent of diets fail over five years and that 65 million Americans are labeled “obese.” Our thin-obsessed society firmly believes that fat people are at fault for their size and it is politically correct to stigmatize and ridicule them. Fat discrimination is one of the last publicly accepted discriminatory practices. Fat people have rights and they need to be upheld!
NAAFA’s message of size acceptance and self-acceptance is often overshadowed by a $49 billion-a-year diet industry that has a vested economic interest in perpetuating discrimination against fat people. Without active financial support from people like you, NAAFA would not exist and could not fulfill its crucial role defending your rights. While it is an uphill battle to achieve our goals, together we are making a difference.
Our Vision
A society in which people of every size are accepted with dignity and equality in all aspects of life.
Our Mission
To eliminate discrimination based on body size and provide fat people with the tools for self-empowerment though public education, advocacy, and support.
Our Promise
NAAFA will be a powerful force for positive social change. Using our collective will, talents and resources, we will improve the world — not just for fat people, but for everyone.
We Come in All Sizes…
Understand it.
Support it.
Accept it.
I don't see any issue with 90% of these statements. The only part that I disagree with is the bolded - fat people ARE at fault for their size. We got fat by eating too much. The rest of it seems pretty spot on, though. Why should being fat = less dignity and respect? I believe that we should all strive to be healthier, and that nearly always includes shedding excess fat, but I don't believe that we should be ridiculed or disrespected if we haven't yet done that.4 -
I support fat acceptance because much like thousands of other habits, hobbies, body modification, medical choices, religious and/or personal choices, sexual orientation, gender acceptance....etc etc...the way someone else chooses to live is NOT my business. Feeling mentally happy/healthy in your skin is very personal and private.
These movements aren't about "agreeing" with obesity. It's about acknowledging that *others* have no business judging them for their personal choices and certainly not determining who "deserves to feel happy about themselves".
Anything that promotes positive minds is a good thing. It's that simple. And people who judge or shame the choices of others are simply disgraceful. If you don't like overweight people feeling good about themselves as human beings (?!)...its probably *you* that needs some introspection and therapy. Not them.
Sorry, but ...ugh.5 -
WendyLeigh1119 wrote: »I support fat acceptance because much like thousands of other habits, hobbies, body modification, medical choices, religious and/or personal choices, sexual orientation, gender acceptance....etc etc...the way someone else chooses to live is NOT my business. Feeling mentally happy/healthy in your skin is very personal and private.
These movements aren't about "agreeing" with obesity. It's about acknowledging that *others* have no business judging them for their personal choices and certainly not determining who "deserves to feel happy about themselves".
Anything that promotes positive minds is a good thing. It's that simple. And people who judge or shame the choices of others are simply disgraceful. If you don't like overweight people feeling good about themselves as human beings (?!)...its probably *you* that needs some introspection and therapy. Not them.
Sorry, but ...ugh.
But that is not what this organization is about, this is in their own words;
"Association to Advance Fat Acceptance (NAAFA) is a non-profit, all volunteer, civil rights organization dedicated to protecting the rights and improving the quality of life for fat people."
What rights are fat people being deprived of?
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I believe this movement is about loving yourself and knowing that your weight doesn't define who you are. Yes it's a part of you that you can choose to change. For myself, until I learned to love myself, I couldn't get into losing weight and knowing that this was a lifestyle change, not just a diet. The movement is about accepting other's for who they are and not treating them badly or bullying them because they are overweight. This can perpetuate emotional eating that almost everyone can relate to and continue the cycle. Everyone deserves to be treated with respect and dignity even if they don't look the same as the often time to thin models that society tries to push as the norm.1
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I'm curious as to what do you get out of criticizing the plus sized movement. You sound like a fat person looking for a reason to look down on another fat person... Who do you criticize? The people that weigh 189lbs?2
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peckchris3267 wrote: »WendyLeigh1119 wrote: »I support fat acceptance because much like thousands of other habits, hobbies, body modification, medical choices, religious and/or personal choices, sexual orientation, gender acceptance....etc etc...the way someone else chooses to live is NOT my business. Feeling mentally happy/healthy in your skin is very personal and private.
These movements aren't about "agreeing" with obesity. It's about acknowledging that *others* have no business judging them for their personal choices and certainly not determining who "deserves to feel happy about themselves".
Anything that promotes positive minds is a good thing. It's that simple. And people who judge or shame the choices of others are simply disgraceful. If you don't like overweight people feeling good about themselves as human beings (?!)...its probably *you* that needs some introspection and therapy. Not them.
Sorry, but ...ugh.
But that is not what this organization is about, this is in their own words;
"Association to Advance Fat Acceptance (NAAFA) is a non-profit, all volunteer, civil rights organization dedicated to protecting the rights and improving the quality of life for fat people."
What rights are fat people being deprived of?
Employment discrimination based on weight, not job performance, is a well-documented phenomenon, as is wage discrimination PARTICULARLY for women. The hit can be more than 50% of income for professional women who are obese vs those of a normal BMI, for the exact same job.6
This discussion has been closed.
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