Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
I don't support the fat acceptance/plus size movement.
Replies
-
heiliskrimsli wrote: »From what I've seen, FA tries to demonize anyone who isn't attracted to fat people. There are some out there who are, but that hasn't been good enough for FA leaders like Tess Holliday.
Yet all of their "real men will love every inch" pics and memes ALWAYS show them depicted in an embrace with a fit, athletic guy. "You have to accept us as gorgeous, but fat men? Ewwwww!" A blatant double standard that reeks of entitlement.
13 -
heiliskrimsli wrote: »From what I've seen, FA tries to demonize anyone who isn't attracted to fat people. There are some out there who are, but that hasn't been good enough for FA leaders like Tess Holliday.
Yet all of their "real men will love every inch" pics and memes ALWAYS show them depicted in an embrace with a fit, athletic guy. "You have to accept us as gorgeous, but fat men? Ewwwww!" A blatant double standard that reeks of entitlement.
Oh you bet. They all want the ripped-to-shreds gym rat with washboard abs, and will verbally shred him if he shows a preference for equally fit women.1 -
heiliskrimsli wrote: »
If you have group insurance, which almost everyone does, it still affects you.JohnnyPenso wrote: »
When you live in a country with socialized medicine it affects your pocketbook.enterdanger wrote: »To be honest, I don't understand how this is even a "movement." I could give a rat's *kitten* about how fat anyone is besides myself.
And yet people love socialist policies, even though those policies make them loathe other people. Go figure.
No, they apparently just make * you * loathe other people.
Some people think beyond their own personal needs.1 -
comptonelizabeth wrote: »heiliskrimsli wrote: »
If you have group insurance, which almost everyone does, it still affects you.JohnnyPenso wrote: »
When you live in a country with socialized medicine it affects your pocketbook.enterdanger wrote: »To be honest, I don't understand how this is even a "movement." I could give a rat's *kitten* about how fat anyone is besides myself.
And yet people love socialist policies, even though those policies make them loathe other people. Go figure.
No, they apparently just make * you * loathe other people.
Some people think beyond their own personal needs.
...and you would be reporting from Venezuela?0 -
Nope. The uk.1
-
comptonelizabeth wrote: »heiliskrimsli wrote: »
If you have group insurance, which almost everyone does, it still affects you.JohnnyPenso wrote: »
When you live in a country with socialized medicine it affects your pocketbook.enterdanger wrote: »To be honest, I don't understand how this is even a "movement." I could give a rat's *kitten* about how fat anyone is besides myself.
And yet people love socialist policies, even though those policies make them loathe other people. Go figure.
No, they apparently just make * you * loathe other people.
Some people think beyond their own personal needs.
I don't think you are following the discussion well if you think tomteboda is loathing people for needing health care. She's obviously referring to sentiments that others have expressed.1 -
heiliskrimsli wrote: »From what I've seen, FA tries to demonize anyone who isn't attracted to fat people. There are some out there who are, but that hasn't been good enough for FA leaders like Tess Holliday.
Yet all of their "real men will love every inch" pics and memes ALWAYS show them depicted in an embrace with a fit, athletic guy. "You have to accept us as gorgeous, but fat men? Ewwwww!" A blatant double standard that reeks of entitlement.
Notice how often this happens in the real world when you're out and about.2 -
comptonelizabeth wrote: »Nope. The uk.
Insightful - socialist policies made possible via capitalism.2 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »comptonelizabeth wrote: »heiliskrimsli wrote: »
If you have group insurance, which almost everyone does, it still affects you.JohnnyPenso wrote: »
When you live in a country with soc0ialized medicine it affects your pocketbook.enterdanger wrote: »To be honest, I don't understand how this is even a "movement." I could give a rat's *kitten* about how fat anyone is besides myself.
And yet people love socialist policies, even though those policies make them loathe other people. Go figure.
No, they apparently just make * you * loathe other people.
Some people think beyond their own personal needs.
I don't think you are following the discussion well if you think tomteboda is loathing people for needing health care. She's obviously referring to sentiments that others have expressed.
My apologies to her,then. I obviously misunderstood. It seemed to me that she was being critical of socialist policies/socialist medicine because it "makes people loathe them".2 -
comptonelizabeth wrote: »Nope. The uk.
Insightful - socialist policies made possible via capitalism.
Not sure what point you're making here,but "socialised medicine " works well in the uk. It's not perfect but at least I don't have to sell my house or get into debt in order to get necessary health care.5 -
comptonelizabeth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »comptonelizabeth wrote: »heiliskrimsli wrote: »
If you have group insurance, which almost everyone does, it still affects you.JohnnyPenso wrote: »
When you live in a country with soc0ialized medicine it affects your pocketbook.enterdanger wrote: »To be honest, I don't understand how this is even a "movement." I could give a rat's *kitten* about how fat anyone is besides myself.
And yet people love socialist policies, even though those policies make them loathe other people. Go figure.
No, they apparently just make * you * loathe other people.
Some people think beyond their own personal needs.
I don't think you are following the discussion well if you think tomteboda is loathing people for needing health care. She's obviously referring to sentiments that others have expressed.
My apologies to her,then. I obviously misunderstood. It seemed to me that she was being critical of socialist policies/socialist medicine because it "makes people loathe them".
Read back to what she was responding to. It might help.0 -
Go hang out at r/fatlogic. It's been a lifesaver for me. Literally.2
-
MissusMoon wrote: »Go hang out at r/fatlogic. It's been a lifesaver for me. Literally.
The funniest part of /r/fatlogic is that it's mostly fat posters pointing out how they're just not quite as bad as that other fat person who is fatter than they are.1 -
This movement is really not all that far removed from various other SJW type causes in that it takes what could potentially be positive dialogue and spins in into utter nonsense by way of childish ideology and whimsical rhetoric. It's essentially "fat lives matter", to use a metaphor. Advocacy in the age of my generation is so stupid it's unbelievable.
There is almost nothing positive about being obese. Nothing. You are often shunned by society, suffer psychological and psychosocial stigma and bias, and are on a fast track to an early grave. As all of us well know, this is 100% preventable with hard work and self discipline. Energies and resources should be focused on encouraging people to do just that, not empowering weak willed and self destructive behavior.
The all too common counter argument is "but but but, models promote eating disorders and being unhealthy". Yep, they sure do, so then your social retort to retarded behavior is to promote similarly retarded behavior of your own? That's pure genius
9 -
Packerjohn wrote: »heiliskrimsli wrote: »From what I've seen, FA tries to demonize anyone who isn't attracted to fat people. There are some out there who are, but that hasn't been good enough for FA leaders like Tess Holliday.
Yet all of their "real men will love every inch" pics and memes ALWAYS show them depicted in an embrace with a fit, athletic guy. "You have to accept us as gorgeous, but fat men? Ewwwww!" A blatant double standard that reeks of entitlement.
Notice how often this happens in the real world when you're out and about.
True enough, the memes are pretty much fictional drawings or staged photoshoots.0 -
I unequivocally disagree with the notion of 'fat people can be healthy too' - by that maxim can we agree that anorexic people are healthy? No. Face facts there are people on this planet currently who think that an outpouring of empathy is the best way to make people feel comfortable about themselves. This is the wrong thing to do - Nietzchse and Jung knew this.
Fat people are more at risk of everything, usually it is purely a mental health issue that manifests itself physically.
In this current soft society we mistake vulnerability and want to encourage its protection at all costs - even in the face of logic.
Maybe if we gave up this 'love your body how it is' mentality - the world wouldn't be such a *kitten* show.
Get fit, get responsibility, get over yourself and get going... You're on this earth a short while, dont waste it.
2 -
ErinMichelle31 wrote: »I think this article sums it up pretty well:
“Health has become the stick with which to beat fat people with, and the benchmark for whether body positivity should include someone.”
So it should be. Evolution used to weed out the crap. Now the crap get medicated. Survival of the fittest.1 -
I think that the thread title is a bit of a misnomer. It should be more of "I don't support what some aspects of the fat acceptance/plus size movement are turning it into" rather than a refusal to support ANY facet of it at all.
There are many posters on here who genuinely aren't aware of the ramblings of Virgie Tovar, Marilyn Wann, Lindy West, Jes Baker, Ragen Chastain, Desiree Meyers-Liebowitz, the concepts of "thin privilege", "fatphobia" and the many hypocritical articles posted on sites like Ravishly, Revelist etc. alomg with the toxic filth that permeates Tumblr and other forms of social media. These are the aspects of the fat acceptance movement that I rail against, not the concept of body positivity itself.
Be comfortable in your own skin regardless of your size (or anything else for that matter) = Good
"Be fat like us, or you are a thin privileged, fatphobic traitor" = Bad. Very bad.
This is a random question but haven't I seen you on Bodybuilding.com? I swear to god I've seen you on there.0 -
onlytruemanhere83 wrote: »I unequivocally disagree with the notion of 'fat people can be healthy too' - by that maxim can we agree that anorexic people are healthy? No. Face facts there are people on this planet currently who think that an outpouring of empathy is the best way to make people feel comfortable about themselves. This is the wrong thing to do - Nietzchse and Jung knew this.
Fat people are more at risk of everything, usually it is purely a mental health issue that manifests itself physically.
In this current soft society we mistake vulnerability and want to encourage its protection at all costs - even in the face of logic.
Maybe if we gave up this 'love your body how it is' mentality - the world wouldn't be such a *kitten* show.
Get fit, get responsibility, get over yourself and get going... You're on this earth a short while, dont waste it.
Except that fat people can be healthy. Their statistical probability of becoming ill increases, but it takes class III obesity (BMI 40) to present a significant risk to any random individual. On the other hand, that same level of risk is achieved at a BMI of 18.
A person who is underweight also may be healthy, but their risk of disease and injury rises dramatically with small losses of mass. Anorexics are not the only people who become underweight, just as people with binge eating disorder are not the only ones who become overweight. Both anorexia and binge eating disorder are psychiatric illnesses, aside from tree effect they have one a person's weight.
I wrote a realy long essay on another read today explaining how it took me years to be able to have a healthy view of my body; it took accepting that i was worthwhile no matter what my weight was. And it was only then that managing my weight did not set off anxiety, depression, and disordered eating.
I Have no doubt that there are a number of people on these boards who would still look down on me, accuse me of being lazy and immoral, judge me as unfit because I have more than 19% body fat or lack a 6 pack or whatever. In the past, the judgment of those people would make me doubt my worth as a human being. And that was very bad. Today I can smile, offer the one-finger salute, and say to others struggling:
Your value is not determined by your weight.
P.s. i repeat, I completely reject the Marxist Critical Theory "fat acceptance". I also reject discrimination, rudeness, bigotry, and hatred of people based on their weight: because I embrace "love your neighbor as yourself" and "all men are created equal".16 -
Except that fat people can be healthy.
Any examples of these wondrous healthy fat people? Most of my family are fat and they have all manner of issues - alcoholism, mental health issues, prostate cancer, heart issues (this is only three members of my family I'm thinking of at the moment - theres more)
I feel we always use the anomaly to define the rule, I have been fat previously - I wasn't happy OR healthy and i think to state that you can be healthy and fat is to lead people down a mean trite road whereby you feel good for making them feel good about themselves.
Its about the individual - looking at themselves naked in the mirror, with nothing but their mind to show, having some cold hard truth. There seems to be a lot of counter studies out there so i won't quickly search literature and show something that highlights my own truth, because thats not how i roll - i prefer platos allegory of the cave.
I agree that going out of your way to make someone feel uncomfortable about their weight is a douche move, however - the amount of overweight people that seem to have an opinion on my 6 workouts a week and clean eating seems to be okay.
Maybe my skin is just a little thicker than theirs, maybe they should be asking why that is...
Maybe their ideal truth has never really been thought of.
Live as long as possible, do as much good as possible3 -
onlytruemanhere83 wrote: »Except that fat people can be healthy.
Any examples of these wondrous healthy fat people? Most of my family are fat and they have all manner of issues - alcoholism, mental health issues, prostate cancer, heart issues (this is only three members of my family I'm thinking of at the moment - theres more)
I feel we always use the anomaly to define the rule, I have been fat previously - I wasn't happy OR healthy and i think to state that you can be healthy and fat is to lead people down a mean trite road whereby you feel good for making them feel good about themselves.
Its about the individual - looking at themselves naked in the mirror, with nothing but their mind to show, having some cold hard truth. There seems to be a lot of counter studies out there so i won't quickly search literature and show something that highlights my own truth, because thats not how i roll - i prefer platos allegory of the cave.
I agree that going out of your way to make someone feel uncomfortable about their weight is a douche move, however - the amount of overweight people that seem to have an opinion on my 6 workouts a week and clean eating seems to be okay.
Maybe my skin is just a little thicker than theirs, maybe they should be asking why that is...
Maybe their ideal truth has never really been thought of.
Live as long as possible, do as much good as possible
I mean, my obese father got a weird ingrown hair on his forehead once that made this giant boil and the hair was 3" long. Other than an arthritic knee (injury-induced), he doesn't have any health problems that I'm aware of. My grandfather was 95 and obese when he died; his obesity was caused by age-related loss of mobility combined with dementia and a wife who smuggled him extra food at the care home. He was only really obese the last 5-6 years of his life.
I was a healthy fat person until I started having babies. I know 100% it would have caught up with me in my 40s, but I do believe that whether one experiences comorbidities with obesity is likely at least partially influenced by genetics. I just happen to have half of my genetic input from a family prone to cardiovascular issues and type 2 diabetes. (If anyone knows of any research on this can you point me at it? Google-fu is failing me.)1 -
I would wonder why anyone who is accepting fat is healthy... is on a My Fitness Pal forum aiming to become more healthy? If you're fat and healthy... why bother?
Genetics plays a part in absolutely everything, I'm sure as we find out even more about epigenetics we will find out more and more, however this argument is not purely scientific - it also relies on a multitude of psychological factors. What dominance hierarchy do you wish to place yourself in? Are you ultimately happy within it? - Id love to debate all this properly with a well rounded emphasis on every aspect. However, Im lay on my back with my macbook at a *kitten* angle and cant type huge sweeping sentences.
Dementia sucks by the way, i feel your pain.2 -
Except that fat people can be healthy. Their statistical probability of becoming ill increases, but it takes class III obesity (BMI 40) to present a significant risk to any random individual. On the other hand, that same level of risk is achieved at a BMI of 18...
I will have to take your word for it that health problems statistically only significantly increase at BMI 40, since I'm too lazy to look for the "peer-reviewed studies" everyone around here is always demanding. Seems to me you can find a peer-reviewed study to support just about anything these days...
In my personal anecdotal experience, as I'm aging, I see that the vast majority of my peers who are BMI 30 and over are rapidly falling apart health-wise. A healthy obese person in their 40's seems to be the exception. I'm fit and healthy, and my BMI is 21.5. The other active, lean people I know are also healthy. One of them just had a cancerous mole removed (skin cancer), but it was a quick and easy fix because it was caught early. I know I'm eventually going to start having age-related problems, but I expect that to be far in the future when I'm actually old. I'm doing what I can to stay healthy for as long as possible. I only have one life to live, so I want to make the best of it.
The people I know with higher BMIs are starting to get all the health problems their grandparents had in their 60's and 70's. They're hypertensive, diabetic or pre-diabetic, have lots of joint and back problems, tired all the time, etc. They're on a cocktail of medications. My obese, soda-chugging brother-in-law ended up in a diabetic coma and almost died at age 36. And a lot of these are super-expensive, chronic conditions. It seems to me that there must be a correlation between overweight and all these early-onset health problems. All these healthy obese people must be in their 20's or something, because I'm just not seeing it in my peer group. If you're obese and healthy now, don't count on it lasting.
I don't know a single person with a BMI lower than 18 (although I know they exist, they aren't as common as obese folks, (especially at my age - 40's) so I'm not going to compare the dangers of underweight to overweight. To me, they are two separate things. I think people often refer to the dangers of being underweight when talking about obesity-related issues, but I thinks that's just a distraction. That's a separate (but also important) issue as far as I'm concerned.
5 -
onlytruemanhere83 wrote: »I unequivocally disagree with the notion of 'fat people can be healthy too' - by that maxim can we agree that anorexic people are healthy? No. Face facts there are people on this planet currently who think that an outpouring of empathy is the best way to make people feel comfortable about themselves. This is the wrong thing to do - Nietzchse and Jung knew this.
Fat people are more at risk of everything, usually it is purely a mental health issue that manifests itself physically.
In this current soft society we mistake vulnerability and want to encourage its protection at all costs - even in the face of logic.
Maybe if we gave up this 'love your body how it is' mentality - the world wouldn't be such a *kitten* show.
Get fit, get responsibility, get over yourself and get going... You're on this earth a short while, dont waste it.
Agree!
But I don't agree that genetics has anything to do with anything.
It ALL starts with food.
1 -
cushman5279 wrote: »onlytruemanhere83 wrote: »I unequivocally disagree with the notion of 'fat people can be healthy too' - by that maxim can we agree that anorexic people are healthy? No. Face facts there are people on this planet currently who think that an outpouring of empathy is the best way to make people feel comfortable about themselves. This is the wrong thing to do - Nietzchse and Jung knew this.
Fat people are more at risk of everything, usually it is purely a mental health issue that manifests itself physically.
In this current soft society we mistake vulnerability and want to encourage its protection at all costs - even in the face of logic.
Maybe if we gave up this 'love your body how it is' mentality - the world wouldn't be such a *kitten* show.
Get fit, get responsibility, get over yourself and get going... You're on this earth a short while, dont waste it.
Agree!
But I don't agree that genetics has anything to do with anything.
It ALL starts with food.
I don't have the genetics to be an NBA star. That's just how it is.
But being fat? That's a choice, not genetics, and I choose not to be. I choose to be fit.4 -
I believe people don't deserve to be treated poorly because they are heavy. That is what the fat acceptance mevement is all about. F.A. also combats myths that you are unattractive, unemployable and have no self control simply because you are bigger. Folks who are bigger are aware of potential health risks, but that's a different story from the social implications of being heavy. Throwing in my 2 ¢
People shouldn't be treated poorly due to being overweight but they also shouldn't be treated better or felt sorry for by others either. They should be treated like everyone else would be treated but no special treatment either.4 -
cushman5279 wrote: »onlytruemanhere83 wrote: »I unequivocally disagree with the notion of 'fat people can be healthy too' - by that maxim can we agree that anorexic people are healthy? No. Face facts there are people on this planet currently who think that an outpouring of empathy is the best way to make people feel comfortable about themselves. This is the wrong thing to do - Nietzchse and Jung knew this.
Fat people are more at risk of everything, usually it is purely a mental health issue that manifests itself physically.
In this current soft society we mistake vulnerability and want to encourage its protection at all costs - even in the face of logic.
Maybe if we gave up this 'love your body how it is' mentality - the world wouldn't be such a *kitten* show.
Get fit, get responsibility, get over yourself and get going... You're on this earth a short while, dont waste it.
Agree!
But I don't agree that genetics has anything to do with anything.
It ALL starts with food.
Of course genetics has something to do with obesity. You can alter the genes of two rats such that if you feed them the exact same amount of food, one will get fat and the other won't. People are just animals, we are not magically able to exist independent of our genes.
However, even the fat rat can be fed little enough that it will eventually become skinny. It just won't be a very happy rat.
I've seen this from both sides. When I was young and being skinny was effortless (I was a model in high school) I clearly remember remarking to a similarly-sized friend about an older woman we knew, "Before I got so fat my stomach stuck out like that I'd lock myself in a closet with no food!" Oh, fate has a funny way of punishing hubris like that. When I blew out my knee in college and was unable to walk for six months, I learned that I actually had no willpower around food whatsoever, never having needed to learn any.
3 -
rheddmobile wrote: »cushman5279 wrote: »onlytruemanhere83 wrote: »I unequivocally disagree with the notion of 'fat people can be healthy too' - by that maxim can we agree that anorexic people are healthy? No. Face facts there are people on this planet currently who think that an outpouring of empathy is the best way to make people feel comfortable about themselves. This is the wrong thing to do - Nietzchse and Jung knew this.
Fat people are more at risk of everything, usually it is purely a mental health issue that manifests itself physically.
In this current soft society we mistake vulnerability and want to encourage its protection at all costs - even in the face of logic.
Maybe if we gave up this 'love your body how it is' mentality - the world wouldn't be such a *kitten* show.
Get fit, get responsibility, get over yourself and get going... You're on this earth a short while, dont waste it.
Agree!
But I don't agree that genetics has anything to do with anything.
It ALL starts with food.
Of course genetics has something to do with obesity. You can alter the genes of two rats such that if you feed them the exact same amount of food, one will get fat and the other won't. People are just animals, we are not magically able to exist independent of our genes.
However, even the fat rat can be fed little enough that it will eventually become skinny. It just won't be a very happy rat.
I've seen this from both sides. When I was young and being skinny was effortless (I was a model in high school) I clearly remember remarking to a similarly-sized friend about an older woman we knew, "Before I got so fat my stomach stuck out like that I'd lock myself in a closet with no food!" Oh, fate has a funny way of punishing hubris like that. When I blew out my knee in college and was unable to walk for six months, I learned that I actually had no willpower around food whatsoever, never having needed to learn any.
You are beginning your statement with an assumption - not a fact.
Which genes determine weight?
Rats and your n of 1 does not lay much of a foundation. Comatose patients are weight managed via a CICO protocol very similar to MFP. Genetics is not the modern day version of reading tea leaves, scrying entrails, etc. Your behavior determines outcome. Your genes merely establish parameters.5 -
Weight seems to be the one scientific issue that people choose to ignore if it hurts their feelings. You can be in denial all you want, claim that obesity is healthy and that you are in total control. Go for it. You know you're lying if you're obese, I know you're lying and so does society. There is nothing empowering about being obese. The empowerment comes from people realizing they have total control over how heavy they are and learn how to do something about it. Until then, they are stuck in the victim-mode of believing that their fat is happening to them and not something they are actively doing to themselves. Fat acceptance prevents people from discovering the hard and hurtful truth. They are killing themselves decades early.
And before you bring up other vices, I'll preface you by saying that no one has a "smoker's acceptance" or "heroin acceptance" group. If they did, people would be horrified. Being common doesn't make being fat healthy. Being socially acceptable doesn't mean it won't kill you. People are in deep, deep denial.12 -
Who do you think you are arguing with?
Who here is saying that obesity is healthy?0
This discussion has been closed.
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 393.6K Introduce Yourself
- 43.8K Getting Started
- 260.3K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.9K Food and Nutrition
- 47.5K Recipes
- 232.5K Fitness and Exercise
- 431 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.5K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.6K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 153K Motivation and Support
- 8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.8K MyFitnessPal Information
- 24 News and Announcements
- 1.1K Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.6K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions