Ladies - Receiving Unwanted "Attention"
Replies
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TeacupsAndToning wrote: »You appear to the casual observer to be one of the "sheep" so the wolves mark you as prey.
It is about body language mostly, especially with women.
It revolves around how you are carrying yourself and the attitude you are projecting.
If you want the wolves to leave you alone, look like one of the sheepdogs instead of a sheep.
Those clowns will not stop because they feel safe, empowered and in control.
Some of them may even think they are flattering you to get a date.
You on the other hand come across as a victim, even in this post.
My wife (who has fought several grown men full-contact and been in more than one altercation while out drinking in bars) calls it a "perpetual b1tch-face". Move and look like you don't want people messing with you and many won't.
Of course, being able to back that up helps with your self-confidence.
My wife may be a little too eager to start stuff sometimes...
Full Disclosure: I have taught Personal Protection, Combatives and Defensive Tactics for about 30 years.
I take issue with your language used here because this is coming off as, "if you just didn't look so approachable they'd stop."
No. She's not the issue. It's them.
Thank you for saying this.6 -
It's harassment, plain and simple, and it's not your fault. Ever. Ignoring it is probably the best thing to do, unfortunately, because if you respond with aggression, they might, too. You never know. Women have been killed for less, unfortunately.
I really wish the men reading this post would just read, maybe learn a thing or two about what it's like to walk through this world as a woman, and move on. All the "Hey, this is the solution!" (which is usually just telling a woman how to change her behavior because those men, you know they just can't help themselves.) or "Gosh, I didn't realize men did that! I'm one of the good guys, I swear!" (A thousand shades of #notallmen.) is not helpful. At all.18 -
Sake of conversation aside, given that the original poster said this:
men keeping quiet would be the respectful thing to do. She clearly asked for women's opinions."Strong_Savannah wrote: »"I would like to get some opinions from women who get unwanted attention like this while exercising in public, how you tend to respond, and how it makes you feel.5 -
I wish I got cat called and hit on..
I guess I'm too ugly.3 -
I got this a lot in college when I was running 5 mi/day. I think it is part of why I struggle with my weight now and why I have a mental block in losing weight. If I lose weight, I will be more attractive to the opposite sex and essentially bring this type of reaction upon myself. I know it is never my fault when someone else behaves inappropriately to me, but it does psychologically scar.5
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This happens way more often than it should to me, only when running outside. I must have perpetual resting b-face as I never get hit on or checked out in 'normal' life (that I notice), only ever when running so it has literally nothing to do with how you carry yourself. It's harassment, simple. I once had a lit cigarette thrown at me while I was out running.
I don't know what these peoples problem is but its exactly that, their problem and not yours. You keep doing you, run in public places, keep moving and try to ignore them
Last year I ran two 5ks, so I did a lot of running in my neighborhood building up to them. Men in passing cars yelled at me almost every single run, no matter what day of the week or time of day.
This year, I am walking in my neighborhood because I hate running and running hates my body (crummy knees & shin splints). Only one person so far has yelled out their car window to date.
I weigh the same and I'm wearing the same clothes & earbuds...I'm building the hypothesis that running is somehow viewed as 'sexy' (let me be clear: I am a terrible, slow, slow runner) whereas walking is boring and not attractive.
Whatever the reason, I'm glad to be less "visible" this year, because it was scary and stressful to have people yell at me out of the blue.
Partially related: the second 5k the shin splints were ludicrously bad and I hobbled most of the race. Passing women cheered me on, passing men explained to me that I could stop to stretch my calves, and had I considered tape (yes, I'm already taped), or shoes (yes, these were professionally fitted shoes), or compression socks (HELLO I AM WEARING HOT PINK KNEE HIGH COMPRESSION SOCKS RIGHT NOW, GUY), or just taking a break to rest????? By the time the THIRD guy slowed to "help" me, I was beyond over it.6 -
This has happened to me since I was 12 years old. I don't have to be exercising, just have to exist as female in public. It has picked up a little more since I lost weight but even at my fattest it still happened.6
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If it makes you all feel any better my 23 yo 6 ft 3 BJJ training son was running in town and a group of men yelled at him to...nothing nice mind you...I think the direct quote was "hey look at that f*****"
so it's not just women who get it.4 -
How I tend to respond depends on how I feel at the time, how safe I feel the situation is, etc. I did live on the streets for a while so I'm a pretty tough chick. A few times I have physically assaulted men for groping or harassing me. But if I am busy or it's a group of men in a bad area I usually just act like I didn't hear them and continue on my way. It's very situation dependent.0
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If it makes you all feel any better my 23 yo 6 ft 3 BJJ training son was running in town and a group of men yelled at him to...nothing nice mind you...I think the direct quote was "hey look at that f*****"
so it's not just women who get it.
No one claimed it was only women.
Also, to those saying to just put on a bish face, it doesn't work like that. I have terrible RBF and have been told that I am pretty unapproachable because of it. But that hasn't stopped people from yelling, honking, grabbing and otherwise harassing me in public. It isn't a me problem; it's a them problem.12 -
ijsantos2005 wrote: »I wish I got cat called and hit on..
I guess I'm too ugly.
I wouldn't wish it upon anyone; it's not flattering. And, I doubt that you're "too ugly" - it's just that the men where you live might be fine examples of the male gender.
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If it makes you all feel any better my 23 yo 6 ft 3 BJJ training son was running in town and a group of men yelled at him to...nothing nice mind you...I think the direct quote was "hey look at that f*****"
so it's not just women who get it.
No one claimed it was only women.
Also, to those saying to just put on a bish face, it doesn't work like that. I have terrible RBF and have been told that I am pretty unapproachable because of it. But that hasn't stopped people from yelling, honking, grabbing and otherwise harassing me in public. It isn't a me problem; it's a them problem.
I didn't say anyone claimed it was only woman...
just putting it out there for those saying "RBF" prevents it or it's on the woman to understand some people are just pigs (males and females both)..and to let the woman know who do have to deal with it that there are lots out there who have sympathy for what is happening...
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BTW, Resting B*tch face, or in my case, Resting don't eff with me face, doesn't work, I just get told to "smile".14
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WorkerDrone83 wrote: »Sorry, that's terrible. Everyone deserves to not be harassed.
But, since I'm learning here, what is the appropriate way to give a compliment or break the ice? Is there one?
A smile and quick nod. Say nothing. If she smiles back, then say hi. Also, just like gym etiquette says to never bother people mid set, the same goes for running/jogging. If someone is working out, let them finish thier workout.6 -
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BTW, Resting B*tch face, or in my case, Resting don't eff with me face, doesn't work, I just get told to "smile".
for real. i think that to the men who are acting as predators, we're all prey, not just the women blissfully and beatifically jogging and smiling. no change in posture or attitude feasibly prevents harassment. ime it's actually the opposite, i get the MOST unwanted attention when i'm hungover, tired, and generally and noticeably irritable.1 -
DamienAngelica wrote: »It's harassment, plain and simple, and it's not your fault. Ever. Ignoring it is probably the best thing to do, unfortunately, because if you respond with aggression, they might, too. You never know. Women have been killed for less, unfortunately.
I really wish the men reading this post would just read, maybe learn a thing or two about what it's like to walk through this world as a woman, and move on. All the "Hey, this is the solution!" (which is usually just telling a woman how to change her behavior because those men, you know they just can't help themselves.) or "Gosh, I didn't realize men did that! I'm one of the good guys, I swear!" (A thousand shades of #notallmen.) is not helpful. At all.
Once again, this happens to men as well. Woman need to learn to respect boundaries at well.
Men get unwanted advances, groped, and raped as well.
It's a major flaw and issue within a person, not a certain gender.8 -
ijsantos2005 wrote: »I wish I got cat called and hit on..
I guess I'm too ugly.
i really don't think it has anything to do with attractiveness of approachability, i think it's almost always opportunistic and situational. there are days when i KNOW i look like *kitten*, but the dude with the naked lady mudflaps who sees me walking from the train alone does not give a single *kitten* about that, he just wants me to know he sees me so he's going to honk and waggle his tongue and tell me to smile or something far more lewd. and my response is also totally irrelevant. he's already made his point.3 -
cmriverside wrote: »I love this thread because it's got me thinking. (long post, sorry)
Now that I'm in my 50s and 100+ lbs. overweight, men no longer look at me, comment on me, or initiate conversation with me. But back in the day, I was constantly wolf watched, propositioned, whistled at, hooted at, and chatted up.
In real life, I'm very friendly when I'm out and about and interactive with each and all - women and men.
I love men and love talking with men, so I don't deny myself the pleasure of their attention. It's just that now, I have to initiate it and so I do. I'm not really flirting and my desire to smile and chat is not borne of any intention to pursue romance and I think men know that. I chat with all ages. Today, men pretty much always respond to me with courtesy, gentility, kindness and surprising receptivity. We exchange pleasantries, chit chat or joke and go about our merry way - down the street, at work, at the post office, at the health club, whatever.
The dynamic though, between me and men, was drastically and unbelievably different when I was a young size 6 and pretty as a picture. I'm sure you know what I mean. Although today I give every man the benefit of the doubt and am indiscriminately willing to engage in light social interaction with them, I can't help but wonder.
*Were you the guy who, 30 years ago, discussed my asss with your friends at Dunkin Donuts when you stood behind me in line - loudly and descriptively declared what you wanted to do with it for all to hear?
*Were you the guy who, 20 years ago, waited until your wife was using the restroom and then approached me in the restaurant where I worked? And then told me you'd pick me up at 2 a.m. and take me on a "joy ride"? And did so with a straight face and complete earnestness?
*Were you the guy who grabbed my arm when I was 18 as I was walking by minding my own business? And then you wouldn't let go, and tried to grab my bewb for the entertainment of your laughing friends and delighted in my fearful reaction?
*Were you one of the many guys who used to slowly stalk me as I walked along, eyeing me like a wild animal who had gone without food for 48 hours and had a very possessed look in your eye? And scared me until I literally had to run away or duck into a store until you went away?
I don't know who's who anymore is what I'm saying. These wonderful, friendly, nice men who chat with me today could be the same guys I describe above. One never really knows. Oh well, che sera sera.
I think all women can relate to your experience.
I would take it further and say part of the reason I ate so much and got to be overweight is because I was done with men. I just got divorced, I had zero inclination to ever be in another relationship. I was 30, and was tired of years of that (above) treatment from men. So since I knew I didn't want any attention from men I didn't care if I was a little overweight AND food was an enjoyable pastime with friends. I learned to cook and cook well. I went out for meals. I ate ice cream on the couch in front of the TV.
Soon every event was about food.
Does it fill a void, and act as a comforting friend? Absolutely. When I decided to eliminate relationships, I no longer cared about being a particular size - I mean it wasn't even on the radar, and I didn't spend time worrying about how I looked. That was actually quite liberating.
Like alcoholism, it takes some time for the problem to progress. For a few years I was just ten pounds over weight. Then as my habits became entrenched, my weight increased. I didn't care one bit about the lack of attention from men but in hindsight I realize it made my self-pronounced, "single for life" stance a lot easier to maintain. Without that annoyance of events like @newmeadow mentioned my life was so much easier and more pleasant. Except I became uncomfortable with myself and started having health problems related to being overweight.
Fast forward to now and I'm at my 22 BMI. I'm older and wiser and would rather be this weight. I still don't want to be with a man, but now I have learned to deflect the ridiculous things that happen. I mentioned I'm in my sixties, right? Recently I've had a guy in a parking lot say, "Nice t!ts." I had one do that lovely little thing with the V fingers in front of their tongue. I had a twenty-something YO stalk me on a hike and wait for me at the trailhead to ask for my number. I had a young guy pull out his erect unit in front of me while I was at a beach. That is just in the last four months.
So yeah, me sitting on a chair and reading a book is definitely me not using the right RBI or "attitude."
I gained weight because I desired invisibility--from men and everyone else. I have CPTSD from child abuse and it manifested, partially, as weight gain.
When I was still getting hit on consistently at 189 lbs., I realized they wouldn't stop and that I was jeopardizing my health for no reason, allowing the hecklers to win.
It doesn't matter what we look like, unfortunately... I've been hit on in my sweats with my glasses on in the middle of the grocery store. I'm an MMA fighter myself and don't try to start anything with anyone, but when it's come down to it I've been able to take care of the problem. At any weight.4 -
That gif tho!!! :laugh:3
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TeacupsAndToning wrote: »You appear to the casual observer to be one of the "sheep" so the wolves mark you as prey.
It is about body language mostly, especially with women.
It revolves around how you are carrying yourself and the attitude you are projecting.
If you want the wolves to leave you alone, look like one of the sheepdogs instead of a sheep.
Those clowns will not stop because they feel safe, empowered and in control.
Some of them may even think they are flattering you to get a date.
You on the other hand come across as a victim, even in this post.
My wife (who has fought several grown men full-contact and been in more than one altercation while out drinking in bars) calls it a "perpetual b1tch-face". Move and look like you don't want people messing with you and many won't.
Of course, being able to back that up helps with your self-confidence.
My wife may be a little too eager to start stuff sometimes...
Full Disclosure: I have taught Personal Protection, Combatives and Defensive Tactics for about 30 years.
I take issue with your language used here because this is coming off as, "if you just didn't look so approachable they'd stop."
No. She's not the issue. It's them.
He NEVER said she was the issue, nor did he imply it. He's not justifying what they're doing either, he's telling her WHY it's happening, someone close to him who it also happened to, and methods to stop it or minimize it happening.
The attractiveness of the woman isn't the issue, and it's not the reason why women are harassed on the street.
This is so true.
It is not about the attractiveness of women.
I am a man. I have been in groups where someone has harassed a stranger on the street.
It's about being macho. Being the alpha who will confront someone else. All the better if it is in front of your buddies.
It's about showing that you have the guts to open your mouth to a stranger and say something that is liable to provoke a reaction.
It is about showing that I am not afraid of you and I am not afraid of your reaction. But, instead, you should be a little intimidated by me.
I kinda think that is the definition of bullying. No. Not kinda. i definitely think that is the definition of bullying.19 -
Chef_Barbell wrote: »That gif tho!!! :laugh:
phew glad I am not the only one...1 -
TeacupsAndToning wrote: »
I take issue with your language used here because this is coming off as, "if you just didn't look so approachable they'd stop."
No. She's not the issue. It's them.
I agree with you - the tone is rather victim blaming. However, I do think it's important to keep in mind that it's a heck of a lot easier to change your own behavior than to expect others to change theirs. If there are body language cues I can implement to keep men like this away from me, I am certainly interested in hearing about it.
While he could have certainly worded it better and made it sound less like "you're asking for it because you aren't aggressive like my wife," I do think there is merit in the idea of being aware of your own body language.
I think it's better to try to prevent it from happening, if I can, than to expect these rude strangers to suddenly grow up.
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ttippie2000 wrote: »So basically, men are dirtbags, women should just deal with it? Why is it always on the woman to control men's behavior? In schools, girls are told what and what not to wear based on how boys could react. Woman are told because they were dressed a certain way it was an invitation to be sexually assaulted. How about men control their own behavior. We don't need some strange dude to tell us we're beautiful, we already know.
I hope that you see it as a moral failure to tar an entire group with the brush of collective suspision and collective guilt. Perhaps I could remind you of the words of the Honorable Justice Sandra Day O'Connor: "To be pre-judge an individual based on the presumed characteristics of an entire class or group is the very essence of prejudice."
As usual a man trying to "mansplain" something that doesn't need to be. I was responding to another post that basically said that this is the way things are. As someone who has to deal with this regularly, even at my advanced age, I think I have a little more experience than you.
Yes, yes. As a man I lack agency. It is an argument common to all identity politics: ‘You must understand where I’m coming from, BUT you can NEVER understand where I’m coming from. Therefore shut up.’ It is a way of looking at things that is inherently divisive.
But tell me, have you ever placed your life in danger to help anybody in need? Have you ever waded into a crowd of 10 men to rescue one from getting beaten to death? Have you ever stepped between an old woman and a knife wielding attacker? Have you ever stopped a stranger from being raped?
I have. The first time I was a high school student in 1982 while I was driving home from a piano lesson. My daydream about the harmony of Bill Evans was interrupted by the sight of a woman in a nearby alley fighting valiantly but without skill for a few seconds until the perpetrator’s straight right sent her, stunned, crashing to the ground. Then I saw the buttons on her blouse scatter across the sidewalk. My mouth dropped open, and I turned the steering wheel into a U-turn and and lurched to a stop nearby. I heard a voice in my head, that of my father, admonishing me, “You damned fool. You’re gonna get yourself shot.”
“Well, then I had better close the gap quick, “ I thought as I filled my lungs with air and threw open the door. I was able to sprint the 15 feet gap as he focused on taking his own pants down. I shoved his shoulder, pushing him off her. As he turned to rise I did not wait for an explanation. I stepped over her sinking my weight into a blow that broke his nose. Training and reactions took over and threw a right elbow, shattering his optical orbit. As my elbow recoiled I hooked my hand behind his neck and launched a knee into his groin that lifted him off the ground. He went down in a heap, clutching his groin. I kneeled down to her to render what aid I could. As she regained consciousness I tried to reassure her she was safe. She was pretty shook up.
If you allowed yourself a bit of civility you might profit in that kind. We are not your enemies.16 -
GiddyupTim wrote: »TeacupsAndToning wrote: »You appear to the casual observer to be one of the "sheep" so the wolves mark you as prey.
It is about body language mostly, especially with women.
It revolves around how you are carrying yourself and the attitude you are projecting.
If you want the wolves to leave you alone, look like one of the sheepdogs instead of a sheep.
Those clowns will not stop because they feel safe, empowered and in control.
Some of them may even think they are flattering you to get a date.
You on the other hand come across as a victim, even in this post.
My wife (who has fought several grown men full-contact and been in more than one altercation while out drinking in bars) calls it a "perpetual b1tch-face". Move and look like you don't want people messing with you and many won't.
Of course, being able to back that up helps with your self-confidence.
My wife may be a little too eager to start stuff sometimes...
Full Disclosure: I have taught Personal Protection, Combatives and Defensive Tactics for about 30 years.
I take issue with your language used here because this is coming off as, "if you just didn't look so approachable they'd stop."
No. She's not the issue. It's them.
He NEVER said she was the issue, nor did he imply it. He's not justifying what they're doing either, he's telling her WHY it's happening, someone close to him who it also happened to, and methods to stop it or minimize it happening.
The attractiveness of the woman isn't the issue, and it's not the reason why women are harassed on the street.
This is so true.
It is not about the attractiveness of women.
I am a man. I have been in groups where someone has harassed a stranger on the street.
It's about being macho. Being the alpha who will confront someone else. All the better if it is in front of your buddies.
It's about showing that you have the guts to open your mouth to a stranger and say something that is liable to provoke a reaction.
It is about showing that I am not afraid of you and I am not afraid of your reaction. But, instead, you should be a little intimidated by me.
I kinda think that is the definition of bullying. No. Not kinda. i definitely think that is the definition of bullying.
Well, the four incidents I listed above were when the guy was by himself - and only one of those incidents was in an isolated place.
So I guess this is your way of saying to us to whom this happens, "Don't flatter yourself, you aren't all that? We are just playing Alpha reindeer games. "
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DamienAngelica wrote: »It's harassment, plain and simple, and it's not your fault. Ever. Ignoring it is probably the best thing to do, unfortunately, because if you respond with aggression, they might, too. You never know. Women have been killed for less, unfortunately.
I really wish the men reading this post would just read, maybe learn a thing or two about what it's like to walk through this world as a woman, and move on. All the "Hey, this is the solution!" (which is usually just telling a woman how to change her behavior because those men, you know they just can't help themselves.) or "Gosh, I didn't realize men did that! I'm one of the good guys, I swear!" (A thousand shades of #notallmen.) is not helpful. At all.
Once again, this happens to men as well. Woman need to learn to respect boundaries at well.
Men get unwanted advances, groped, and raped as well.
It's a major flaw and issue within a person, not a certain gender.
I never said it didn't happen to men, but this was a post about it happening to a woman and the original poster asked for opinions from women. If men want to discuss this happening to them, then I'd suggest starting a new topic as the insistence of "It happens to men, too!" is derailing and shows a lack of respect to the original poster.
11 -
I thought this was appropriate today, for this conversation. I'm not a Clinton fan (even less a Trump fan), but I relate to her descriptions here:
In one of the excerpts[from her new book], Clinton specifically addressed how she felt to have Trump standing behind her during a debate at Washington University in St. Louis.
"It was incredibly uncomfortable," she said, describing the moment. "He was literally breathing down my neck. My skin crawled. It was one of those moments where you wish you could hit pause and ask everyone watching, well, what would you do?"
She continued: "Do you stay calm, keep smiling and carry on as if he weren't repeatedly invading your space? Or do you turn, look him in the eye and say loudly and clearly, 'Back up you creep, get away from me?' ... I kept my cool, aided by a lifetime of dealing with men trying to throw me off."
from http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/23/politics/hillary-clinton-memoir-campaign-what-happened/index.html
Especially that last paragraph -- what do we do? That was the OP's original question.
The most recent time this happened to me (last week) I was walking to my car, in business attire (I am upper level management) from picking up my 10 year old son from day camp. Yes, I was with my 10 year old son. Didn't stop the creep from hooting and gesturing at me.3 -
ttippie2000 wrote: »ttippie2000 wrote: »So basically, men are dirtbags, women should just deal with it? Why is it always on the woman to control men's behavior? In schools, girls are told what and what not to wear based on how boys could react. Woman are told because they were dressed a certain way it was an invitation to be sexually assaulted. How about men control their own behavior. We don't need some strange dude to tell us we're beautiful, we already know.
I hope that you see it as a moral failure to tar an entire group with the brush of collective suspision and collective guilt. Perhaps I could remind you of the words of the Honorable Justice Sandra Day O'Connor: "To be pre-judge an individual based on the presumed characteristics of an entire class or group is the very essence of prejudice."
As usual a man trying to "mansplain" something that doesn't need to be. I was responding to another post that basically said that this is the way things are. As someone who has to deal with this regularly, even at my advanced age, I think I have a little more experience than you.
Yes, yes. As a man I lack agency. It is an argument common to all identity politics: ‘You must understand where I’m coming from, BUT you can NEVER understand where I’m coming from. Therefore shut up.’ It is a way of looking at things that is inherently divisive.
But tell me, have you ever placed your life in danger to help anybody in need? Have you ever waded into a crowd of 10 men to rescue one from getting beaten to death? Have you ever stepped between an old woman and a knife wielding attacker? Have you ever stopped a stranger from being raped?
I have. The first time I was a high school student in 1982 while I was driving home from a piano lesson. My daydream about the harmony of Bill Evans was interrupted by the sight of a woman in a nearby alley fighting valiantly but without skill for a few seconds until the perpetrator’s straight right sent her, stunned, crashing to the ground. Then I saw the buttons on her blouse scatter across the sidewalk. My mouth dropped open, and I turned the steering wheel into a U-turn and and lurched to a stop nearby. I heard a voice in my head, that of my father, admonishing me, “You damned fool. You’re gonna get yourself shot.”
“Well, then I had better close the gap quick, “ I thought as I filled my lungs with air and threw open the door. I was able to sprint the 15 feet gap as he focused on taking his own pants down. I shoved his shoulder, pushing him off her. As he turned to rise I did not wait for an explanation. I stepped over her sinking my weight into a blow that broke his nose. Training and reactions took over and threw a right elbow, shattering his optical orbit. As my elbow recoiled I hooked my hand behind his neck and launched a knee into his groin that lifted him off the ground. He went down in a heap, clutching his groin. I kneeled down to her to render what aid I could. As she regained consciousness I tried to reassure her she was safe. She was pretty shook up.
If you allowed yourself a bit of civility you might profit in that kind. We are not your enemies.
I appreciate your heroism, but I have to say... It is not a "moral failure" to state the truth. We are taught at a very early age to "act like ladies", sit with our legs together, skirts being of a certain length, etc. with the unspoken reasoning that males will see our bodies and get aroused or act out. This is truth. It comes down to men taking responsibility and controlling themselves.10 -
"I appreciate your heroism, but I have to say... It is not a "moral failure" to state the truth. We are taught at a very early age to "act like ladies", sit with our legs together, skirts being of a certain length, etc. with the unspoken reasoning that males will see our bodies and get aroused or act out. This is truth. It comes down to men taking responsibility and controlling themselves."[/quote]
Thank you. I trying to come up with something that wasn't snarky, because obviously he still doesn't get it.6 -
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