Ladies - Receiving Unwanted "Attention"
Replies
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clayelliott847 wrote: »Ok. If I want to talk to a girl, what is the right way?? After reading all these comments I feel I am harrasing by just saying hello.
I suggest you talk to her like a human being.10 -
clayelliott847 wrote: »Ok. If I want to talk to a girl, what is the right way?? After reading all these comments I feel I am harrasing by just saying hello.
If you want to talk to someone who is running or cycling ...
First of all, get into your running gear or get on the bicycle and go out and run or ride.
If you're just driving by or hollering from a street corner, we don't want to hear from you.
Secondly, join a running club or cycling club and get involved in the sport. Perhaps the person you want to talk to is involved in one of those clubs as well and you'll meet on common ground, doing something that interests you both.
Thirdly, if you happen to meet while out running or cycling, just talk like a normal human being. Discuss running or cycling ... discuss footwear or bicycles ... discuss upcoming events ...
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I havent read past page 1, but this is precisely why i stopped exercising outside! I made sure and wore baggy unattractive shorts and tshirts, and it didn't make a difference. I just got sick of feeling like a piece of meat in the zoo for pigs to leer at.
My response to these guys was to stare them down and just shake my head until i made them feel as uncomfortable as they made me feel, the ones calling out while driving past in their cars got the finger!4 -
I get this a lot. I have a different reaction depending on my mood, the safety of the situation, and exactly what was said. I have been known to hide my face, make a mean face, or yell "BACK UP OFF!"
Sucks.2 -
I've had really good luck on public transit with focusing attention on the person being harassed, asking if they're ok, offering to switch seats, etc.
i agree with this, if other people happen to be around. the way the dynamic works for the harasser is heavily based in them being isolated and having nothing else to give their attention to. you can stare out the window or whatever, but that doesn't really work because it's not like they're stupid. they still know they're 'winning' because they're as aware as anyone else that you're having to spend energy and attention on blocking them out.
so as a bystander, just providing some pretext for breaking it up and giving them someone else to talk to/whatever can go a fair ways towards spiking their guns. that's assuming there even are any bystanders, of course.
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I have found a somewhat aggressive ( direct, a little louder than normal, neutral in emotion, a more formal address rather than just a "hey" or "what's up" etc...) "HELLO!" or "GOOD MORNING" etc... with direct eye contact is off putting for men. If you can get the jump on them and take away they're predatory drive ( you're not "prey" if you acknowledge them first) it takes away their power. They don't realize this, of course, they are just kind of in shock and say a quiet "Hi" back as you run or bike by at your most powerful speed and perfect form. Puff up, Be aggressive - and you'll beat them at their own game.
This.0 -
The thing is does this work for any guy? Do they actually have women stopping to chat and flirt? Why would anyone, man or woman, think this is appropriate?
you're missing the point a little. or you skipped some of the zillion posts about it
yes, it works for the type the op was talking about, because they're not after a real interaction or relationship in the first place. they're just pulling a power play, and if they get that taken care of it's 'worked'.
a lot of men do this to women to show that they can. not to 'meet' them. to demonstrate that they can if they feel like it.
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briansolomon7863 wrote: »I agree 100%. It is about how we raise our children.
well, if that's the case they were raising kids wrong when my parents' generation were kids because men of that age were making themselves a nuisance to me when i was 18. it's not about the internet or instagram. this *kitten* was happening before those two things even were.
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canadianlbs wrote: »I've had really good luck on public transit with focusing attention on the person being harassed, asking if they're ok, offering to switch seats, etc.
i agree with this, if other people happen to be around. the way the dynamic works for the harasser is heavily based in them being isolated and having nothing else to give their attention to. you can stare out the window or whatever, but that doesn't really work because it's not like they're stupid. they still know they're 'winning' because they're as aware as anyone else that you're having to spend energy and attention on blocking them out.
so as a bystander, just providing some pretext for breaking it up and giving them someone else to talk to/whatever can go a fair ways towards spiking their guns. that's assuming there even are any bystanders, of course.
I catch public transport daily and have often sparked up a conversation with a woman being harassed, either just as a conversation, or, if the harasser is being really insistent, by pretending I know her.
You know, "Oh hey!! It's been ages! How are you? Are you still working in the same place?". In those more full on circumstances, I usually also maneuver myself between her and the harasser.4 -
GiddyupTim wrote: »All the better if it is in front of your buddies.
why i love eddie izzard. 'and they hang out in groups of five . . . because they've got a fifth of a personality each'.
what i have to contribute to this is that it's not a one-flavour kind of phenomenon. there is the very definite herd-bully variety that you're referring to. there's the 'lonely' guy who tries to force a conversation on a woman because just being out on her own makes her seem accessible. there's the overtly predatory type ditto. and there are the condescending types who are so awe-inspiringly up their own selves that they sincerely think a random 'compliment' from the likes of them will just make our little hearts glow for the rest of the day.
so, given that, there's no one-size solution either. my sister and i have compared a lot of notes about this over the years, because we're such different types it never stops being fascinating how different our experiences are. similar features, different 'types'. she's the blonde amazon who stops a room when she's on point. i'm the gidget-y type.
bottom line: we both come/came in for equal volumes of flak. we just get different flavours more commonly. she gets overt up-front aggression. i get insinuation and the passive-aggressive 'soft' sell. we both have had similar kinds of reactions most of our lives ["*kitten* off or i'll take your face off"]. we just get different kinds of retaliation/reaction when we do it.
she gets the aggression up front, before the '*kitten* off'. i always tended to get it after that point. it's always been socially fascinating, but my general point is that it all comes out to about the same quantities when you eliminate the individual-context factors.
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Dear Posters,
There has been some insightful and respectful discussion up until this point. Please keep it that way. Please remember to think through your posts and do not resort to flame baiting or attacking one another.
Thanks,
4legs3 -
Good luck with that.WorkerDrone83 wrote: »LOL. That's a very "You don't have to swim faster than the shark..." kind of mentality. We've domesticated wolves before. We can do it again.
We domesticated wolves by killing off all of the ones that we were trying to TAME but which continued to demonstrate traits we did not like.
So are you suggesting we start bumping off all guys that cat-call at women?
We are emasculating many men as it is, but it sounds as if you think it should be taken even further.
Or do you think they should go to jail for it instead?
SPOILER: Putting people in prison for committing crimes does not make them much less likely to offend again (recidivism) nor does it make the rest of the criminal population less likely to commit crimes.
Do you somehow believe genetically-coded behavior (no matter how poorly or inappropriately it is applied) that was ingrained since the dawn of the human race is going to be overridden by a sensitivity class or something?
That is more emasculation, and it may even work, eventually.
Decades of sensitivity training for the whole planet.
But what are you going to do until then?
I'm done here. Many of you are talking in terms of fantasy and wish fulfillment.
As if a guy would stop being a putz just because you want him to.
You are responsible for your own safety. Not that guy, not the cops, not me.
"When seconds count, help is only minutes away."
I offered advice -as a professional in the field- free of charge.
Do with it what you will.
If you actually want to understand some of this stuff, learn why wanting the guy to "change" will not help or are going to take some personal responsibility for your well-being then try reading "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin de Becker and/or "Strong on Defense" by Sanford Strong.
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To the people who ask "well when's the right time to compliment a girl?" Obviously whistling at me from your car window or yelling at me across the street or following close behind me is neither complimentary nor the right time.
I don't think people understand the constant onslaught this can be sometimes. There are woman who truly enjoy it. I would guess that the majority find it very uncomfortable and we only say "thanks" or giggle because we don't want this interaction to get weird or potentially violent ....not because we're actually thankful or think your comment about my 'sexy *kitten*' as sooooooo funny!
I also find it hilarious when people say that woman should take self defense classes. What? No. Teach people not to treat woman like objects.10 -
Resting *kitten* face. A friend, male or female, who will workout with you? Unfortunately this is really not your problem, it is them, and as females we have to adjust ourselves for their behavior. I have experienced this when I was younger, and have had creepy middle-aged men check out my teenaged daughters right in front of me. I usually have the dirtiest look I can muster and when their eyes come off my daughters they see me and look away like a kicked dog. The next thing I will say, and I am by no means blaming the victim, but as I tell my daughters, think about your clothing choices. There are too many creeps out there and sometimes our clothes attract the undesirables. It's a safety issue too, especially if you're alone. Remember men are very visual creatures. Good luck!3
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Good luck with that.WorkerDrone83 wrote: »LOL. That's a very "You don't have to swim faster than the shark..." kind of mentality. We've domesticated wolves before. We can do it again.
We domesticated wolves by killing off all of the ones that we were trying to TAME but which continued to demonstrate traits we did not like.
So are you suggesting we start bumping off all guys that cat-call at women?
We are emasculating many men as it is, but it sounds as if you think it should be taken even further.
Or do you think they should go to jail for it instead?
SPOILER: Putting people in prison for committing crimes does not make them much less likely to offend again (recidivism) nor does it make the rest of the criminal population less likely to commit crimes.
Do you somehow believe genetically-coded behavior (no matter how poorly or inappropriately it is applied) that was ingrained since the dawn of the human race is going to be overridden by a sensitivity class or something?
That is more emasculation, and it may even work, eventually.
Decades of sensitivity training for the whole planet.
But what are you going to do until then?
I'm done here. Many of you are talking in terms of fantasy and wish fulfillment.
As if a guy would stop being a putz just because you want him to.
You are responsible for your own safety. Not that guy, not the cops, not me.
"When seconds count, help is only minutes away."
I offered advice -as a professional in the field- free of charge.
Do with it what you will.
If you actually want to understand some of this stuff, learn why wanting the guy to "change" will not help or are going to take some personal responsibility for your well-being then try reading "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin de Becker and/or "Strong on Defense" by Sanford Strong.
I'm not suggesting the mass eradication of D-bags, no. I probably wouldn't really care if it happened, though.
It's obviously not a crime, so jail is out of the picture as well.
I don't believe that men (or women) are genetically coded to sexually harass people, either. No sensitivity class, but I think societies have a responsibility to keep their people in check. If some guy is trying to impress his friends by cat-calling, I think if everyone else around him gave him a negative reaction he'd be less likely do to it in the future. Then, heaven forbid he's still a douche and has a son, he can pass the knowledge down that it's inappropriate to treat other people that way.
I don't think anyone's arguing about who's responsible for one's own safety, but then again my livelihood isn't based on propagating fear.17 -
I have an etiquette question. When I'm out running or on the bike and pass another runner/cyclist coming in the opposite direction, I'll give a little head nod and sometimes maybe a "hey". I do the exact same for men and women and always thought it was just a polite acknowledgement that doesn't really mean anything. Men almost always return the nod, but lately I've come to notice that often women either just keep focused straight ahead and completely ignore it, or (occasionally) give me a hard, "don't *kitten* with me or I'll cut you" staredown.
So, is that harassment? Should I stop doing that? Maybe only acknowledge men and ignore women?0 -
I have an etiquette question. When I'm out running or on the bike and pass another runner/cyclist coming in the opposite direction, I'll give a little head nod and sometimes maybe a "hey". I do the exact same for men and women and always thought it was just a polite acknowledgement that doesn't really mean anything. Men almost always return the nod, but lately I've come to notice that often women either just keep focused straight ahead and completely ignore it, or (occasionally) give me a hard, "don't *kitten* with me or I'll cut you" staredown.
So, is that harassment? Should I stop doing that? Maybe only acknowledge men and ignore women?
Only acknowledge men, never acknowledge women. Women live in daily terror, you don't want to spook them.16 -
I understand, this is why I do not even go to the gym because I can never workout with some one trying to talk to me or leaving phone number on my car. So I just workout at home.3
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ijsantos2005 wrote: »I have an etiquette question. When I'm out running or on the bike and pass another runner/cyclist coming in the opposite direction, I'll give a little head nod and sometimes maybe a "hey". I do the exact same for men and women and always thought it was just a polite acknowledgement that doesn't really mean anything. Men almost always return the nod, but lately I've come to notice that often women either just keep focused straight ahead and completely ignore it, or (occasionally) give me a hard, "don't *kitten* with me or I'll cut you" staredown.
So, is that harassment? Should I stop doing that? Maybe only acknowledge men and ignore women?
Only acknowledge men, never acknowledge women. Women live in daily terror, you don't want to spook them.
How sad
Actually, I think I suprised a man by saying good morning to him on my run this morning (he was running in the opposite direction). Mind, I haven't had the experience some women have had, just the odd bit here and there. Not looking forward to it either! But a man who is clearly out doing his thing just like I am isn't anywhere near as off putting as ones lounging around in a group looking bored. Or any group lounging around looking bored really! 2 -
I have an etiquette question. When I'm out running or on the bike and pass another runner/cyclist coming in the opposite direction, I'll give a little head nod and sometimes maybe a "hey". I do the exact same for men and women and always thought it was just a polite acknowledgement that doesn't really mean anything. Men almost always return the nod, but lately I've come to notice that often women either just keep focused straight ahead and completely ignore it, or (occasionally) give me a hard, "don't *kitten* with me or I'll cut you" staredown.
So, is that harassment? Should I stop doing that? Maybe only acknowledge men and ignore women?
I'm a woman and I've run across the same thing. Men always return my greeting, women return it only about 75% of the time. And it seems the younger the woman, the less likely she is to even look at me. I still say "hi" or "good morning" or wave at every single person I cross paths with while running.5 -
VioletRojo wrote: »I have an etiquette question. When I'm out running or on the bike and pass another runner/cyclist coming in the opposite direction, I'll give a little head nod and sometimes maybe a "hey". I do the exact same for men and women and always thought it was just a polite acknowledgement that doesn't really mean anything. Men almost always return the nod, but lately I've come to notice that often women either just keep focused straight ahead and completely ignore it, or (occasionally) give me a hard, "don't *kitten* with me or I'll cut you" staredown.
So, is that harassment? Should I stop doing that? Maybe only acknowledge men and ignore women?
I'm a woman and I've run across the same thing. Men always return my greeting, women return it only about 75% of the time. And it seems the younger the woman, the less likely she is to even look at me. I still say "hi" or "good morning" or wave at every single person I cross paths with while running.
Well for me a hike/walk is alone time. It is where I connect to Nature and find quiet. I'm not out to make contact with other people, I get enough of that. So I don't look at other people on a walk. If they speak to me it is unusual.
There is this one sweet older lady who always says, "Hello! God bless you." I never know what to say to that other than, "Hello." or "God bless you, too." It's really nice though. She doesn't even speak English, I've tried saying more and all she says back is, "Yes!" lol.1 -
I have an etiquette question. When I'm out running or on the bike and pass another runner/cyclist coming in the opposite direction, I'll give a little head nod and sometimes maybe a "hey". I do the exact same for men and women and always thought it was just a polite acknowledgement that doesn't really mean anything. Men almost always return the nod, but lately I've come to notice that often women either just keep focused straight ahead and completely ignore it, or (occasionally) give me a hard, "don't *kitten* with me or I'll cut you" staredown.
So, is that harassment? Should I stop doing that? Maybe only acknowledge men and ignore women?
I'm fond of the runner's salute/wave myself, and have a few people I'll stop to chat with or say hi to. The majority of people who respond in any way are the slower runners. The fast guys or the HS track kids who run in my park actually look offended sometimes if I try the half wave.
Things that I personally think are nice: eye contact, a quick smile, "good morning", wave, complimenting my effort or work ethic if you're a regular, letting me say hi to your dog.
Things that are harassing and not cool: catcalls, commenting on my *kitten*, blocking my path, grabbing my arm, trying to chat when I have headphones in, getting aggressive if I don't respond to you, etc.
Obviously it's individual. Err on the side of treating women like you'd treat another guy and I think you'll be fine.5 -
The thing is does this work for any guy? Do they actually have women stopping to chat and flirt? Why would anyone, man or woman, think this is appropriate?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RW8djpetnjg
I remember when Thelma and Louise first came out. This scene empowered me! Lol4 -
We domesticated wolves by killing off all of the ones that we were trying to TAME but which continued to demonstrate traits we did not like.
So are you suggesting we start bumping off all guys that cat-call at women?
We are emasculating many men as it is, but it sounds as if you think it should be taken even further.
The implication that expecting men not to harass women is "emasculating" them is so telling.
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If it makes you all feel any better my 23 yo 6 ft 3 BJJ training son was running in town and a group of men yelled at him to...nothing nice mind you...I think the direct quote was "hey look at that f*****"
so it's not just women who get it.
My 300 pound husband has been catcalled by groups of men in cars. Yes, he is too fat, but under that he is built like a linebacker. He has hair down to his butt, which is very shapely. Apparently there are men who wish him to know that they would smash. However, his reaction to this treatment was exactly the same as mine: Annoyed and frightened. I hate harassers with the fire of a supernova.8 -
If it makes you all feel any better my 23 yo 6 ft 3 BJJ training son was running in town and a group of men yelled at him to...nothing nice mind you...I think the direct quote was "hey look at that f*****"
so it's not just women who get it.
My 300 pound husband has been catcalled by groups of men in cars. Yes, he is too fat, but under that he is built like a linebacker. He has hair down to his butt, which is very shapely. Apparently there are men who wish him to know that they would smash. However, his reaction to this treatment was exactly the same as mine: Annoyed and frightened. I hate harassers with the fire of a supernova.
That's hilarious!3 -
TeacupsAndToning wrote: »We domesticated wolves by killing off all of the ones that we were trying to TAME but which continued to demonstrate traits we did not like.
So are you suggesting we start bumping off all guys that cat-call at women?
We are emasculating many men as it is, but it sounds as if you think it should be taken even further.
The implication that expecting men not to harass women is "emasculating" them is so telling.
I agree.
And I'm interested to know all the ways that he thinks men are being emasculated. I'm guessing he's one of those, "but if we can't say X to women then that's taking away my manhood!" which is nonsense.
Right? Because manners are only for (literally) kittens.
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I have an etiquette question. When I'm out running or on the bike and pass another runner/cyclist coming in the opposite direction, I'll give a little head nod and sometimes maybe a "hey". I do the exact same for men and women and always thought it was just a polite acknowledgement that doesn't really mean anything. Men almost always return the nod, but lately I've come to notice that often women either just keep focused straight ahead and completely ignore it, or (occasionally) give me a hard, "don't *kitten* with me or I'll cut you" staredown.
So, is that harassment? Should I stop doing that? Maybe only acknowledge men and ignore women?
No, a nod or a hello is totally fine with me (I even mentioned it a bit earlier). That is totally different then saying "Oh, baby, nice *kitten*" or something- and that distinction should not be too hard to grasp for people.
Some people won't acknowledge you (I actually run through a government complex and see a lot of male cops running, many just ignore me entirely, even if I "nod" to them)- I just don't take it personally. People are working out and focused on themselves and/or they are just trying to avoid any confrontation, even innocuous, because it might escalate (as it should be apparent from these stories) it happens frequently.
If you want to meet people in social times, go to a bar or a party or join a social fitness club (my city has several on Meetup). Don't talk about physical attributes to strangers. Don't be quiet if your buddies are cat-calling strangers. Don't tolerate that type of behavior in your presence. This goes for both genders (although the OP mentions women specifically), but that should be clear too.
There are appropriate times and places for things. There are social fitness clubs/events/classes that happen all the time if you want to meet someone of your desired gender and you want them to be into fitness too.4 -
ijsantos2005 wrote: »If it makes you all feel any better my 23 yo 6 ft 3 BJJ training son was running in town and a group of men yelled at him to...nothing nice mind you...I think the direct quote was "hey look at that f*****"
so it's not just women who get it.
My 300 pound husband has been catcalled by groups of men in cars. Yes, he is too fat, but under that he is built like a linebacker. He has hair down to his butt, which is very shapely. Apparently there are men who wish him to know that they would smash. However, his reaction to this treatment was exactly the same as mine: Annoyed and frightened. I hate harassers with the fire of a supernova.
That's hilarious!
It would be funny in a sitcom but IRL it's really disconcerting.3 -
Cutaway_Collar wrote: »
Hide some pocket knives or other self-defence devices in your socks or armband.Strong_Savannah wrote: »Cutaway_Collar wrote: »OP, I see from your profile picture that you are quite pretty.
So this kind of treatment you are getting is just expected. It is not right but that is how the cookie crumbles. It happens to all pretty women around the world.
My wife deals with it. She says men roll down windows while jammed in traffic and they whistle or just make kissing faces and all kinds of effery. She gets followed in grocery stores. She is hourglass shaped and she gets comments about her butt. When I am with her, she gets stares. That is just how it is.
In NYC, women get followed.... and they need to hide in duane reade pretending to shop and take another door out.
My advice to you... don't run or hike in secluded areas. You never know what happens out there. Be careful.
I actually prefer more secluded areas, because I know I won't have to deal with anyone else! Just me, and peace and quiet. My favorite place to run is the backroad I grew up on.
But that is what's unfortunate - this treatment happens more often than not... yet I always seem surprised by it, smh.
Great advice for getting a felony. Responding to cat calls and other verbal harassment with disproportionate deadly force will land you behind bars. Even just concealing a knife may land you in jail without even using it.
A gun would be even worse, anyone with a CCW knows that verbal harassment isn't a reason to shoot someone, self defense won't apply.5
This discussion has been closed.
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