Pros and cons of a Keto Diet
Replies
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GlassAngyl wrote: »Oh I forgot, some other pros of Keto (compared to high carbs) for:
* Epilepsy
* Alzheimers
* Parkinsons
Ketones: Metabolism's Ugly Duckling
Theodore B. Vanitallie, M D Thomas H. Nufert, BA
Nutrition Reviews, Volume 61, Issue 10, 1 October 2003, Pages 327–341, https://doi.org/10.1301/nr.2003.oct.327-341
The only choices are not just keto or high carb. False dilemma. And high carb in a person at a healthy body weight and eating a overall healthy diet had not been proven to have harmful health effects.
Didn't see where she said there is only keto or high carb. Just keto vs high carb. Again, having to use crayons to spell things out for the "in the box" crowds.
There is also low carb and vegetarian and vegan and Atkins and point system and...well, just etc etc! But woops.. silly her posting on a question about keto post and not giving honorable mentions to other woe's.
You can eat high carb and lose.
Most Americans don't eat "high carb" as that is normally defined.
Don't see anyone here arguing that people need to "high carb" (I'd not enjoy it at all).
Don't see anyone here arguing that it doesn't matter what you eat, just that keto vs. not is not the same as "nutritionally adequate" vs. not as has been incorrectly claimed by wolfruhn.5 -
tcunbeliever wrote: »I'm currently doing keto for migraine control - so far the biggest pro is that I haven't had a migraine all week...we'll see how it holds up over the course of a month since my migraines are definitely somewhat tied to menstrual cycle...but so far so good.
And on a HUGE PRO side for me - I can eat all the foods that used to be migraine triggers (beef, pork, chicken, etc) and I don't have a migraine afterward - I have spent over 5 years not being able to eat a lot of my favorite foods, so for me this is a huge thing.
There are many different versions of keto, I'm starting with 2:1 - if that keeps the migraines away I will not make any changes. That's 2 fat calories for every 1 protein + carb calorie. I'm doing net carbs at this time, not total. I was already low carb and did not alter my calorie or protein goals when switching to keto, just shifted the goals away from carbs and over to fat.
So far the only con has been slightly more effort in planning food. I already pre-logged my food most days, so this isn't a huge change for me, but I do find I have to tweak the numbers a bit to get my goals where I want them...a whole avocado where I might have usually only used half, or cottage cheese were I might have previously had yogurt.
I suspect I will miss crisps when PMS week comes around, that will probably be a con...but I can have salted nuts, so I'll get through it.
My goal is to do this 2 years and then gradually start increasing carbs and shifting the ratio closer to 1:1 or whatever I can tolerate without a return of symptoms. In studies with epileptic children the brain changes were permanent after 2 years and seizures didn't return when the diet was changed from keto to low carb - I haven't found any studies regarding permanence in adults, so this will be a self-experiment.
Realistically, even if I have to eat this way forever, it's better than having migraines, and I'll take bacon over potato chips just about any day.
My sister in law was skeptical until she realized she hadn't needed her migrain meds, xanax, arthritis and depression meds, and hasn't had sciatica issues or needed shots in her back for her back problems since starting this woe. That and of course her weight loss. Now some was caused by weight I'm sure.. like her back.. but the rest she suffered with before kids when she was 120 lbs. she has been on medication since she was 16. She hasn't needed them in two months.. And my dad had two strokes.. had high cholesterol and bp despite taking his meds. Last time he went to the dr, gone. All of it. All his levels are perfect and the doctor told him to keep doing whatever it is he's doing. He said, "eat whatever it is my daughter tells me to!"
I haven't had any headaches and my joints don't hurt. I stopped painting because my hands would burn after a few minutes then feel cramped the rest of the day. Now I feel no pain. Not even the buzzy feeling you get when circulation is cut off.12 -
GlassAngyl wrote: »
And just so we are clear.. vegetarians and vegans get attacked less than those who want to try keto or low carb.
How about we make this totally clear. Those who eat keto do NOT get attacked. Those who claim that keto is the only way to eat or make false claims about its superior health benefits WILL receive push back and requests for proof (just like anyone else who claims any kind of absolute). It is not the way you choose to eat, it is the way you (general you) present it to the world that triggers how the world will respond. Since keto is the flavor of the moment, there are currently more of the "you must" type of posts regarding it than other types of diets.
Yes, this.
I love low carbing, I think keto works well for some people (and can be done more or less healthfully, although I don't comment on people's individual diets unless they ask me to). I hate the claims that keto is superior for one reason or another or that 50% of humans need to keto or stuff like that. It's not backed up by evidence.9 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »GlassAngyl wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »GlassAngyl wrote: »Shame about all the people who continue to argue against Keto, while millions more people across the globe continue to be trapped and become part of the obesity epidemic. Arguing that just go ahead and eat whatever you like as long as you stay within calories.
The modern 'fad' for carb centric diets started after WW2 but it clearly hasn't worked, as evidenced by looking around while at the mall.
It's about time people started waking up and getting back to the position of Ketosis being absolutely okay and a natural experience that many people went into and out of regularly over hundreds of thousands of years of man's evolution.
You say it so much nicer than I do..
Course I envy those who can carb and lose weight.. but I agree.. it APPARENTLY isn't the easiest way or more obese people wouldn't struggle and give up and restart over and over and over and.. well you get the idea. The only complaint from anti ketoers is from those who continued to over eat on it trying to hit macros .. not sure how that's possible but I think they are saying "do it for me so I don't have to do any work".. and from those who agreed it worked but didn't feel it was varied enough in choices because they listened to the psycho keto cults that restricted everything and didn't tell them about keto breads and noodles and deserts (or they are just lazy and if it isn't prepackaged it's not an option..) Now their minds are permanently poisoned to the idea.
I hate you're doing it wrong posts - no one ever appreciates them and they're usually not true. Some people don't respond well to keto, some people don't like the food, some people experience no tangible benefits, some people don't lose weight, some people do overeat - it doesn't work for them - and that's ok, it doesn't have to.
That it works for you is enough, right?
Exactly what I've been saying literally this ENTIRE TIME! But no.. let's pick and choose what they want to see..
1: "Keto (blurrs out important part) everyone.
2: It worked for me because (blah blah blah I don't want to hear this!)
3:But like I said, if I could do regular cico. I (she hates cico and thinks it's the wrong way! I hate her!)
4: Don't let others discourage you. There is more than one way to do keto. (OMG she just promoted keto!)
5: You may find you don't like it and prefer low carb instead. (Ugh! I hate keto promoters!)
6 and 7: But until you try for yourself, you won't know for sure if it's for you. Some do better on a higher (I refuse to listen to this crap!) diet. (All she did was promote her way of eating!)
So.. let's try this again but fill in the missed blanks. 1:(Isn't for) 2:(Pro's of why it helped me) 3:(Cons of why it may not work for you) 4:(They won't know unless they try for themselves so why bash it?? Unless you are promoting YOUR WOE!) 5:(Maybe they don't want high carbs and only know of two ways.. here is a chance to show them that there are variations to choose from.) 6:(carbs.. yeah.. I promoted something that didn't work for me. Hmmm. That it may or may not work for them is enough, right?) 7:(And back at square one as everything anti-ketoers are against is blanked out as they ignore the part where I promote ALL methods just so long as they TRY it without being biased by others.)
And just so we are clear.. vegetarians and vegans get attacked less than those who want to try keto or low carb. And some of them are keto as well! It isn't easy for vegans though.. Yet, if a VEGAN can attempt to eat high fat and low carb on their TRULY RESTRICTIVE diet, why can't a curious newbie try it for themselves before being attacked and scared away because others found it too hard for them? That's why they add friends who are like minded.. To seek advice when they are confused.
I agree with you 100% - you've nailed the experience most have with the general forums and it's why so few who eat low carb post here. All of the what-about-mah-vegtables, it's not sustainable, your breath, your kidneys, you can't cut out a whole food group, everything in moderation and the number the of woo's on posts for anyone who takes the time to share their positive experience with the diet is wrong. And it's absolutely shameful the ignorant, anti low carb bias is the loudest voice on the forums even when it's recommended by a posters doctor.
I hate all of that but the reverse it true too - a ketogenic diet isn't right for everyone and they should be able to share that.
Thank you. Was beginning to think I wasn't expressing myself in an easy to understand fashion or using to big of words. I'm not mad at those who don't like keto.. I get it! It can suck when your kid pulls out a pan hot, moist, delicious fudge brownies! I don't begrudge them the opportunity to dive right in if they have zero issues losing weight or maintaining with such sweet temptations just casually lying around! Good for them! Can we switch will powers for a day so I can have some too?
But when I say, "it isn't for everyone but it worked for me" and all they chose to focus on is the "worked for me".. then attack it? I'm gonna draw verbal visuals in just as polite ways as they do. And I'll bring the research.. Since the extra work seems to kill them.
Teach my kids from day one to always always always do your own research and not believe word of mouth.. Finds out the hard way that the majority of the world prefers word of mouth..10 -
JustRobby1 wrote: »GlassAngyl wrote: »cerise_noir wrote: »
Lol. Because carbs cause obesity, right?Shame about all the people who continue to argue against Keto, while millions more people across the globe continue to be trapped and become part of the obesity epidemic. Arguing that just go ahead and eat whatever you like as long as you stay within calories.
The modern 'fad' for carb centric diets started after WW2 but it clearly hasn't worked, as evidenced by looking around while at the mall.
It's about time people started waking up and getting back to the position of Ketosis being absolutely okay and a natural experience that many people went into and out of regularly over hundreds of thousands of years of man's evolution.
Newsflash: it doesn't work for everyone. For some, LC or Keto can cause disastrous effects (IBS, crohns, Hypercholesterolemia, heart disease, etc).
Keto isn't a magic cure.
Only true statement here is that keto isn't a magic cure and doesn't work for everyone. It's a freaking miracle to those who couldn't lose any other way. To those who could, just a diet choice.
You might want to do your research on IBS and Crohns.. There is no substantial study done on IBS sufferers but the one study that was done on 13 participants, 13 had an improvement over a 2 week study and 10 reported an improvement on their condition for the full 4 weeks. Those that reported worse symptoms were found to have been eating to much protein. Some people are confused and thinks protein is suppose to be high.. it isn't. I have IBS and I haven't had one episode since starting low carb.
https://www.verywell.com/ketogenic-diet-for-ibs-4083084
Works on crohns as well..
http://www.ijcasereportsandimages.com/archive/2016/009-2016-ijcri/CR-10690-09-2016-toth/ijcri-1069009201690-toth-full-text.php
It's good for heart disease if USED CORRECTLY (bad fats vs good)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2716748/
And hypocholesterolemia..
https://ketogeniclab.com/how-keto-diet-saved-antyas-life/
And there you have it kids..
Of the two valid sources you listed, I have to ask, did you even read the papers?
Why yes, and understood it. Even the parts that WERE negative.. just not about what you were posting about.. How bout you? Did you catch that? There can be negative side effects in SOME people but the study showed that it is a SAFE diet.. this from the government site. Negatives came from there also. I actually enjoy research.
Sorry, I should clarify first that you did mean the Gov site as one of the legit ones? Or are you concerned about their validity because of FEMA camps and Chem trails and harrp weather? Just making sure.
I thought about taking screen shots when I first posted the links and add the images because I just KNEW you would side step YOUR arguments and look for SOMETHING to work with.. but i figured that you would just do that regardless anyways so why bother?7 -
GlassAngyl wrote: »But when I say, "it isn't for everyone but it worked for me" and all they chose to focus on is the "worked for me".. then attack it?
I looked at your original post and, forgive me if I'm wrong, no one attacked it.8 -
GlassAngyl wrote: »Pro.. once the toxins are gone your breath will smell sweet. Varying times for different people.
So this is my only query. What toxins?12 -
OMG. I do low carb, and some of the discussions here make me hate other low carbers. For god's sake, if it makes you feel good, eat low carb. If it doesn't, don't. No skin off my back. If you want to discuss low carb with other rational low carb people, come join the Low Carbers Daily Forum. It's VERY down to earth and non-preachy.16
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Shame about all the people who continue to argue against Keto, while millions more people across the globe continue to be trapped and become part of the obesity epidemic. Arguing that just go ahead and eat whatever you like as long as you stay within calories.
The modern 'fad' for carb centric diets started after WW2 but it clearly hasn't worked, as evidenced by looking around while at the mall.
It's about time people started w
waking up and getting back to the position of Ketosis being absolutely okay and a natural experience that many people went into and out of regularly over hundreds of thousands of years of man's evolution.
first of all I would like to say I lost weight eating carbs. I became obese eating too much food and moving less. as for keto being best. keto could literally cause me to have a heart attack,stroke or TIA. you may ask why. well I will tell you before you poo poo saying keto is great for everyone. first of all I have nothing against keto or those who do it. BUT,for me I have FH(familial hypercholesterolemia) my body produces too much cholesterol so my liver and other organs cannot properly process fat and cholesterol and filter it,so any excess gets stored. I end up with fat pads around my joints, I have cholesterol deposits under my eyes, and so on. which would mean it would get stored in my arteries.
so for me eating high amounts of fat and cholesterol containing foods is a no go. I tried keto before I found out I had FH and it made me lethargic(did it for about 2 months), I had brain fog,my breath and sweat stunk to high heaven.my blood sugar was low,I was dizzy(and yes I did it properly and made sure to get enough sodium,magnesium and potassium). I couldnt even function,not to mention my cholesterol went even higher and I started having other issues.
once I stopped I started to feel better and get my energy back. I have to eat a low fat/low cholesterol,high fiber diet. My cholesterol has improved to where I now have normal numbers in over 15 years. I feel better, my fat pads are so small now its not too noticeable, my xanthelasmas are going away as well. I have eaten what I liked and kept within my calories and have lost weight. I even have a metabolic disorder and eat sometimes more than 200g of carbs a day.
Just because keto is great for some people out there, doesnt mean that everyone should do it or can do it. In my case and for others like me high amounts of fats could cause death in the long run.thats not something I want to mess with. If it works for you great continue to eat that way but please stop telling everyone its the best way of eating and better for everyone when clearly its not.kudos to those who can eat that way and improve their health issue. But some health issues can be improved with weight loss and change in diet.
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Oh I forgot, some other pros of Keto (compared to high carbs) for:
* Epilepsy
* Alzheimers
* Parkinsons
Ketones: Metabolism's Ugly Duckling
Theodore B. Vanitallie, M D Thomas H. Nufert, BA
Nutrition Reviews, Volume 61, Issue 10, 1 October 2003, Pages 327–341, https://doi.org/10.1301/nr.2003.oct.327-341
The only choices are not just keto or high carb. False dilemma. And high carb in a person at a healthy body weight and eating a overall healthy diet had not been proven to have harmful health effects.
Also to point out, quoting abstract doesn't = science, especially when it was a preliminary "study" that is behind paid walls. The link to Epilepsy is actually fairly clear and no one disputes that. Alzheimers and Parkisons is still fairly new and requires a lot more research before it can become proven. And it's not "if you eat keto, you will cure this disease or prevent this disease". It's more like, "eating keto along with this huge list of treatments, may slow the progression of the disease".
What generally gets me, it's people don't understand the difference between treatment and prevention. And while there may be some overlap, it isn't always like that. And with some diseases, its actually the complete opposite. For example, my wife has diverticulosis (genetic condition). When there is a flare up, treatment is a very low fiber diet to minimize the requirements on her colon, but prevention is the complete opposite... high fiber, whole food diet (exception - no nuts and seeds).5 -
singingflutelady wrote: »Shame about all the people who continue to argue against Keto, while millions more people across the globe continue to be trapped and become part of the obesity epidemic. Arguing that just go ahead and eat whatever you like as long as you stay within calories.
The modern 'fad' for carb centric diets started after WW2 but it clearly hasn't worked, as evidenced by looking around while at the mall.
It's about time people started waking up and getting back to the position of Ketosis being absolutely okay and a natural experience that many people went into and out of regularly over hundreds of thousands of years of man's evolution.
Explain the blue zones..
No one ever does.4 -
For me personally:
Con: anaerobic exercise took a heavy dive and I couldn't lift to save my life
Pro: my endurance running mileage went up1 -
Well, this thread's been a journey.
I'm going to ignore a lot of it since I think that's best.
Keto's biggest con for me is that it's a macro mix I don't find satiating AND I have familial hypercholesterolemia. In spite of the dubious n=1 link I saw posted earlier, I'm going to stay with current medical guidelines on the issue and stick with a low fat high carb diet (with plenty of protein). (Especially since I find that way of eating to be satisfying.)
In the end, I don't think dietary choice comes down to a list of objective pros and cons that you sift through and then make a choice, like you do when ... oh, I don't know, maybe say, buying a new car (though sometimes emotion comes into that, so that might not be the best analogy).
I think dietary choice comes down to a list of subjective pros and cons, and you can't ask other people about them. You have to try things out and experience them for yourself.
Satiety is individual, and whether or not the macro balance of keto or any other way off eating suits you and your activity level is only something you can find out for yourself.7 -
BILLIONS of people eat with moderate carbs in their diets in other countries and DON'T have weight issues. Basically because they DON'T consume more than they need to.Shame about all the people who continue to argue against Keto, while millions more people across the globe continue to be trapped and become part of the obesity epidemic. Arguing that just go ahead and eat whatever you like as long as you stay within calories.
The modern 'fad' for carb centric diets started after WW2 but it clearly hasn't worked, as evidenced by looking around while at the mall.
It's about time people started waking up and getting back to the position of Ketosis being absolutely okay and a natural experience that many people went into and out of regularly over hundreds of thousands of years of man's evolution.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Real world experience for me is that just about every person that have purported to have lost their weight on keto that I have encountered, regained it back and now are looking for a better way to do it. Granted I don't see thousands of people a day, but even speaking to lean people in my gym, it's not a common way to eat. Possibly because of the society we live in attributes, but remember that all eating behavior is usually first learned in the first 10 or so years of life.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition 10 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »I eat less vegetables now just because I eat less than I did before but a day that looks like this (fruit & vegetables in the morning, salad for lunch and roasted vegetables for dinner) isn't unusual and I imagine it is a lot of vegetables for most (low carb or not):
Summary: 2.5 pounds or 14 servings of vegetables, 37 net carbs
Yes, but for ketosis, you are getting a LOT of carbs ; generally 20g max for those following keto6 -
aernest825 wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »I eat less vegetables now just because I eat less than I did before but a day that looks like this (fruit & vegetables in the morning, salad for lunch and roasted vegetables for dinner) isn't unusual and I imagine it is a lot of vegetables for most (low carb or not):
Summary: 2.5 pounds or 14 servings of vegetables, 37 net carbs
Yes, but for ketosis, you are getting a LOT of carbs ; generally 20g max for those following keto
It's not. That's the current perpetuated nonsense that is floating around. Many people sustain ketosis levels at much higher levels than 20g. If a person's goal is to get into ketosis as fast as possible, than you can go down to 20g and use IF to help accelerate the process. But once you are in, it's much easier to sustain and you can do it after higher levels, especially if you are active. Hell, I have known cyclist that can do it at 200g of carbs a day. So making blanket statements without knowing the person and what they are doing is not helpful and only leads to over generalizations based on inaccuracies.6 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »GlassAngyl wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »GlassAngyl wrote: »Shame about all the people who continue to argue against Keto, while millions more people across the globe continue to be trapped and become part of the obesity epidemic. Arguing that just go ahead and eat whatever you like as long as you stay within calories.
The modern 'fad' for carb centric diets started after WW2 but it clearly hasn't worked, as evidenced by looking around while at the mall.
It's about time people started waking up and getting back to the position of Ketosis being absolutely okay and a natural experience that many people went into and out of regularly over hundreds of thousands of years of man's evolution.
You say it so much nicer than I do..
Course I envy those who can carb and lose weight.. but I agree.. it APPARENTLY isn't the easiest way or more obese people wouldn't struggle and give up and restart over and over and over and.. well you get the idea. The only complaint from anti ketoers is from those who continued to over eat on it trying to hit macros .. not sure how that's possible but I think they are saying "do it for me so I don't have to do any work".. and from those who agreed it worked but didn't feel it was varied enough in choices because they listened to the psycho keto cults that restricted everything and didn't tell them about keto breads and noodles and deserts (or they are just lazy and if it isn't prepackaged it's not an option..) Now their minds are permanently poisoned to the idea.
I hate you're doing it wrong posts - no one ever appreciates them and they're usually not true. Some people don't respond well to keto, some people don't like the food, some people experience no tangible benefits, some people don't lose weight, some people do overeat - it doesn't work for them - and that's ok, it doesn't have to.
That it works for you is enough, right?
Exactly what I've been saying literally this ENTIRE TIME! But no.. let's pick and choose what they want to see..
1: "Keto (blurrs out important part) everyone.
2: It worked for me because (blah blah blah I don't want to hear this!)
3:But like I said, if I could do regular cico. I (she hates cico and thinks it's the wrong way! I hate her!)
4: Don't let others discourage you. There is more than one way to do keto. (OMG she just promoted keto!)
5: You may find you don't like it and prefer low carb instead. (Ugh! I hate keto promoters!)
6 and 7: But until you try for yourself, you won't know for sure if it's for you. Some do better on a higher (I refuse to listen to this crap!) diet. (All she did was promote her way of eating!)
So.. let's try this again but fill in the missed blanks. 1:(Isn't for) 2:(Pro's of why it helped me) 3:(Cons of why it may not work for you) 4:(They won't know unless they try for themselves so why bash it?? Unless you are promoting YOUR WOE!) 5:(Maybe they don't want high carbs and only know of two ways.. here is a chance to show them that there are variations to choose from.) 6:(carbs.. yeah.. I promoted something that didn't work for me. Hmmm. That it may or may not work for them is enough, right?) 7:(And back at square one as everything anti-ketoers are against is blanked out as they ignore the part where I promote ALL methods just so long as they TRY it without being biased by others.)
And just so we are clear.. vegetarians and vegans get attacked less than those who want to try keto or low carb. And some of them are keto as well! It isn't easy for vegans though.. Yet, if a VEGAN can attempt to eat high fat and low carb on their TRULY RESTRICTIVE diet, why can't a curious newbie try it for themselves before being attacked and scared away because others found it too hard for them? That's why they add friends who are like minded.. To seek advice when they are confused.
I agree with you 100% - you've nailed the experience most have with the general forums and it's why so few who eat low carb post here. All of the what-about-mah-vegtables, it's not sustainable, your breath, your kidneys, you can't cut out a whole food group, everything in moderation and the number the of woo's on posts for anyone who takes the time to share their positive experience with the diet is wrong. And it's absolutely shameful the ignorant, anti low carb bias is the loudest voice on the forums even when it's recommended by a posters doctor.
I hate all of that but the reverse it true too - a ketogenic diet isn't right for everyone and they should be able to share that.
I only had 3 woo's on my post about my personal experiences with the diet.
LOL
The board is getting more accepting of LCHF over time. A couple of years ago a keto thread would get more of the woo science responses than there is now. People know more about it and can approach it from an educated position.
I think a common argument now is against sustainability, but I have not seen anything that shows LCHF is less sustainable than any other diet. Again, I think that comes down to a person's circumstances. I could never maintain moderation in all things but I'm a few years into LCHF and keto.
The other most common seems to be the need to point out that keto is not magic. I have no idea if that is as common in vegetarian, vegan, Mediterranean, SAD, paleo/primal, clean eating, or moderation threads since I do not look into those as much. I doubt it though.... Well, maybe in paleo threads.aernest825 wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »I eat less vegetables now just because I eat less than I did before but a day that looks like this (fruit & vegetables in the morning, salad for lunch and roasted vegetables for dinner) isn't unusual and I imagine it is a lot of vegetables for most (low carb or not):
Summary: 2.5 pounds or 14 servings of vegetables, 37 net carbs
Yes, but for ketosis, you are getting a LOT of carbs ; generally 20g max for those following keto
I agree with the previous poster. Ketogenic diets just has you in ketosis all the time. The carb level needed to maintain that can really vary. Many can do fine with 50g, athletes with timed carbs may go over 200g, inactive people with insulin resistance may need to stay under 20g, and some people find they feel best when their carbs are as close to zero as possible. There is a lot of variation.3 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »GlassAngyl wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »GlassAngyl wrote: »Shame about all the people who continue to argue against Keto, while millions more people across the globe continue to be trapped and become part of the obesity epidemic. Arguing that just go ahead and eat whatever you like as long as you stay within calories.
The modern 'fad' for carb centric diets started after WW2 but it clearly hasn't worked, as evidenced by looking around while at the mall.
It's about time people started waking up and getting back to the position of Ketosis being absolutely okay and a natural experience that many people went into and out of regularly over hundreds of thousands of years of man's evolution.
You say it so much nicer than I do..
Course I envy those who can carb and lose weight.. but I agree.. it APPARENTLY isn't the easiest way or more obese people wouldn't struggle and give up and restart over and over and over and.. well you get the idea. The only complaint from anti ketoers is from those who continued to over eat on it trying to hit macros .. not sure how that's possible but I think they are saying "do it for me so I don't have to do any work".. and from those who agreed it worked but didn't feel it was varied enough in choices because they listened to the psycho keto cults that restricted everything and didn't tell them about keto breads and noodles and deserts (or they are just lazy and if it isn't prepackaged it's not an option..) Now their minds are permanently poisoned to the idea.
I hate you're doing it wrong posts - no one ever appreciates them and they're usually not true. Some people don't respond well to keto, some people don't like the food, some people experience no tangible benefits, some people don't lose weight, some people do overeat - it doesn't work for them - and that's ok, it doesn't have to.
That it works for you is enough, right?
Exactly what I've been saying literally this ENTIRE TIME! But no.. let's pick and choose what they want to see..
1: "Keto (blurrs out important part) everyone.
2: It worked for me because (blah blah blah I don't want to hear this!)
3:But like I said, if I could do regular cico. I (she hates cico and thinks it's the wrong way! I hate her!)
4: Don't let others discourage you. There is more than one way to do keto. (OMG she just promoted keto!)
5: You may find you don't like it and prefer low carb instead. (Ugh! I hate keto promoters!)
6 and 7: But until you try for yourself, you won't know for sure if it's for you. Some do better on a higher (I refuse to listen to this crap!) diet. (All she did was promote her way of eating!)
So.. let's try this again but fill in the missed blanks. 1:(Isn't for) 2:(Pro's of why it helped me) 3:(Cons of why it may not work for you) 4:(They won't know unless they try for themselves so why bash it?? Unless you are promoting YOUR WOE!) 5:(Maybe they don't want high carbs and only know of two ways.. here is a chance to show them that there are variations to choose from.) 6:(carbs.. yeah.. I promoted something that didn't work for me. Hmmm. That it may or may not work for them is enough, right?) 7:(And back at square one as everything anti-ketoers are against is blanked out as they ignore the part where I promote ALL methods just so long as they TRY it without being biased by others.)
And just so we are clear.. vegetarians and vegans get attacked less than those who want to try keto or low carb. And some of them are keto as well! It isn't easy for vegans though.. Yet, if a VEGAN can attempt to eat high fat and low carb on their TRULY RESTRICTIVE diet, why can't a curious newbie try it for themselves before being attacked and scared away because others found it too hard for them? That's why they add friends who are like minded.. To seek advice when they are confused.
I agree with you 100% - you've nailed the experience most have with the general forums and it's why so few who eat low carb post here. All of the what-about-mah-vegtables, it's not sustainable, your breath, your kidneys, you can't cut out a whole food group, everything in moderation and the number the of woo's on posts for anyone who takes the time to share their positive experience with the diet is wrong. And it's absolutely shameful the ignorant, anti low carb bias is the loudest voice on the forums even when it's recommended by a posters doctor.
I hate all of that but the reverse it true too - a ketogenic diet isn't right for everyone and they should be able to share that.
I only had 3 woo's on my post about my personal experiences with the diet. LOL
The board is getting more accepting of LCHF over time. A couple of years ago a keto thread would get more of the woo science responses than there is now. People know more about it and can approach it from an educated position.
I think a common argument now is against sustainability, but I have not seen anything that shows LCHF is less sustainable than any other diet. Again, I think that comes down to a person's circumstances. I could never maintain moderation in all things but I'm a few years into LCHF and keto.
The other most common seems to be the need to point out that keto is not magic. I have no idea if that is as common in vegetarian, vegan, Mediterranean, SAD, paleo/primal, clean eating, or moderation threads since I do not look into those as much. I doubt it though.... Well, maybe in paleo threads.aernest825 wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »I eat less vegetables now just because I eat less than I did before but a day that looks like this (fruit & vegetables in the morning, salad for lunch and roasted vegetables for dinner) isn't unusual and I imagine it is a lot of vegetables for most (low carb or not):
Summary: 2.5 pounds or 14 servings of vegetables, 37 net carbs
Yes, but for ketosis, you are getting a LOT of carbs ; generally 20g max for those following keto
I agree with the previous poster. Ketogenic diets just has you in ketosis all the time. The carb level needed to maintain that can really vary. Many can do fine with 50g, athletes with timed carbs may go over 200g, inactive people with insulin resistance may need to stay under 20g, and some people find they feel best when their carbs are as close to zero as possible. There is a lot of variation.
Whatever the diet of the month is, generally gets the most attention.. Paleo was big a few years ago, and vegetarian/plant based still get some reactions as well (especially when they demonize dairy/meats). The problems occur when those who are new make the normal outrageous claims. If you need some examples on the claims, I can look through some of my recent threads and point some out, lol. Heck.. in one post, I could probably list the normal nonsense that I have heard from every major style diet.
ETA: I blame blogs, youtube and netflix.5 -
GlassAngyl wrote: »cerise_noir wrote: »
Lol. Because carbs cause obesity, right?Shame about all the people who continue to argue against Keto, while millions more people across the globe continue to be trapped and become part of the obesity epidemic. Arguing that just go ahead and eat whatever you like as long as you stay within calories.
The modern 'fad' for carb centric diets started after WW2 but it clearly hasn't worked, as evidenced by looking around while at the mall.
It's about time people started waking up and getting back to the position of Ketosis being absolutely okay and a natural experience that many people went into and out of regularly over hundreds of thousands of years of man's evolution.
Newsflash: it doesn't work for everyone. For some, LC or Keto can cause disastrous effects (IBS, crohns, Hypercholesterolemia, heart disease, etc).
Keto isn't a magic cure.
Only true statement here is that keto isn't a magic cure and doesn't work for everyone. It's a freaking miracle to those who couldn't lose any other way. To those who could, just a diet choice.
You might want to do your research on IBS and Crohns.. There is no substantial study done on IBS sufferers but the one study that was done on 13 participants, 13 had an improvement over a 2 week study and 10 reported an improvement on their condition for the full 4 weeks. Those that reported worse symptoms were found to have been eating to much protein. Some people are confused and thinks protein is suppose to be high.. it isn't. I have IBS and I haven't had one episode since starting low carb.
https://www.verywell.com/ketogenic-diet-for-ibs-4083084
Works on crohns as well..
http://www.ijcasereportsandimages.com/archive/2016/009-2016-ijcri/CR-10690-09-2016-toth/ijcri-1069009201690-toth-full-text.php
It's good for heart disease if USED CORRECTLY (bad fats vs good)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2716748/
And hypocholesterolemia..
https://ketogeniclab.com/how-keto-diet-saved-antyas-life/
And there you have it kids..
I don't need to do research for IBS and Keto. I have chronic IBSm and Keto was freakin' horrible for me. I did it for months. It was the cause of my IBSm to become chronic. I lived the pain.
Also, I know quite a few who have crohns and Hypercholesterolemia (you mentioned hypocholesterolemia) and was hell for them.
And don't get me started on freakin' Keto cures for heart disease ffs. Most of my family has some form of heart disease, heck my mother died last year after suffereing for 28 years.
I wonder who will come along and say "Keto is great for Alzheimers!!!". Don't get me started on that one.
After reading those papers you posted.. did you even read them? Just wondering. Most of those aren't even valid sources..6 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »GlassAngyl wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »GlassAngyl wrote: »Shame about all the people who continue to argue against Keto, while millions more people across the globe continue to be trapped and become part of the obesity epidemic. Arguing that just go ahead and eat whatever you like as long as you stay within calories.
The modern 'fad' for carb centric diets started after WW2 but it clearly hasn't worked, as evidenced by looking around while at the mall.
It's about time people started waking up and getting back to the position of Ketosis being absolutely okay and a natural experience that many people went into and out of regularly over hundreds of thousands of years of man's evolution.
You say it so much nicer than I do..
Course I envy those who can carb and lose weight.. but I agree.. it APPARENTLY isn't the easiest way or more obese people wouldn't struggle and give up and restart over and over and over and.. well you get the idea. The only complaint from anti ketoers is from those who continued to over eat on it trying to hit macros .. not sure how that's possible but I think they are saying "do it for me so I don't have to do any work".. and from those who agreed it worked but didn't feel it was varied enough in choices because they listened to the psycho keto cults that restricted everything and didn't tell them about keto breads and noodles and deserts (or they are just lazy and if it isn't prepackaged it's not an option..) Now their minds are permanently poisoned to the idea.
I hate you're doing it wrong posts - no one ever appreciates them and they're usually not true. Some people don't respond well to keto, some people don't like the food, some people experience no tangible benefits, some people don't lose weight, some people do overeat - it doesn't work for them - and that's ok, it doesn't have to.
That it works for you is enough, right?
Exactly what I've been saying literally this ENTIRE TIME! But no.. let's pick and choose what they want to see..
1: "Keto (blurrs out important part) everyone.
2: It worked for me because (blah blah blah I don't want to hear this!)
3:But like I said, if I could do regular cico. I (she hates cico and thinks it's the wrong way! I hate her!)
4: Don't let others discourage you. There is more than one way to do keto. (OMG she just promoted keto!)
5: You may find you don't like it and prefer low carb instead. (Ugh! I hate keto promoters!)
6 and 7: But until you try for yourself, you won't know for sure if it's for you. Some do better on a higher (I refuse to listen to this crap!) diet. (All she did was promote her way of eating!)
So.. let's try this again but fill in the missed blanks. 1:(Isn't for) 2:(Pro's of why it helped me) 3:(Cons of why it may not work for you) 4:(They won't know unless they try for themselves so why bash it?? Unless you are promoting YOUR WOE!) 5:(Maybe they don't want high carbs and only know of two ways.. here is a chance to show them that there are variations to choose from.) 6:(carbs.. yeah.. I promoted something that didn't work for me. Hmmm. That it may or may not work for them is enough, right?) 7:(And back at square one as everything anti-ketoers are against is blanked out as they ignore the part where I promote ALL methods just so long as they TRY it without being biased by others.)
And just so we are clear.. vegetarians and vegans get attacked less than those who want to try keto or low carb. And some of them are keto as well! It isn't easy for vegans though.. Yet, if a VEGAN can attempt to eat high fat and low carb on their TRULY RESTRICTIVE diet, why can't a curious newbie try it for themselves before being attacked and scared away because others found it too hard for them? That's why they add friends who are like minded.. To seek advice when they are confused.
I agree with you 100% - you've nailed the experience most have with the general forums and it's why so few who eat low carb post here. All of the what-about-mah-vegtables, it's not sustainable, your breath, your kidneys, you can't cut out a whole food group, everything in moderation and the number the of woo's on posts for anyone who takes the time to share their positive experience with the diet is wrong. And it's absolutely shameful the ignorant, anti low carb bias is the loudest voice on the forums even when it's recommended by a posters doctor.
I hate all of that but the reverse it true too - a ketogenic diet isn't right for everyone and they should be able to share that.
I only had 3 woo's on my post about my personal experiences with the diet. LOL
The board is getting more accepting of LCHF over time. A couple of years ago a keto thread would get more of the woo science responses than there is now. People know more about it and can approach it from an educated position.
I think a common argument now is against sustainability, but I have not seen anything that shows LCHF is less sustainable than any other diet. Again, I think that comes down to a person's circumstances. I could never maintain moderation in all things but I'm a few years into LCHF and keto.
The other most common seems to be the need to point out that keto is not magic. I have no idea if that is as common in vegetarian, vegan, Mediterranean, SAD, paleo/primal, clean eating, or moderation threads since I do not look into those as much. I doubt it though.... Well, maybe in paleo threads.aernest825 wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »I eat less vegetables now just because I eat less than I did before but a day that looks like this (fruit & vegetables in the morning, salad for lunch and roasted vegetables for dinner) isn't unusual and I imagine it is a lot of vegetables for most (low carb or not):
Summary: 2.5 pounds or 14 servings of vegetables, 37 net carbs
Yes, but for ketosis, you are getting a LOT of carbs ; generally 20g max for those following keto
I agree with the previous poster. Ketogenic diets just has you in ketosis all the time. The carb level needed to maintain that can really vary. Many can do fine with 50g, athletes with timed carbs may go over 200g, inactive people with insulin resistance may need to stay under 20g, and some people find they feel best when their carbs are as close to zero as possible. There is a lot of variation.
Whatever the diet of the month is, generally gets the most attention.. Paleo was big a few years ago, and vegetarian/plant based still get some reactions as well (especially when they demonize dairy/meats). The problems occur when those who are new make the normal outrageous claims. If you need some examples on the claims, I can look through some of my recent threads and point some out, lol. Heck.. in one post, I could probably list the normal nonsense that I have heard from every major style diet.
ETA: I blame blogs, youtube and netflix.
Yeah, you can got into any "What the Health" thread and see it ripped to shreds, often by the very same people who are stating that "keto is not magic". Well, because it's not. No diet is magic. That was sort of a weird little non sequitur, but whatever.
The point being that outrageous claims made about any form of diet generally get ripped to shreds by all of the evidence based people on these boards. And that's an important distinction to note here.
I'm getting to a point I'd like to illustrate. We're not "loyal" to a way of eating, and it's weird to think of people that way. I'll offer, for example, two people from my friend list to illustrate my point here. @lemurcat12, @WinoGelato, and myself.
Lemurcat eats low carb. Wino Gelato eats a mix of macros, at roughly proportional ratios, and I eat higher carb with adequate protein and am a vegetarian. None of us eat the same diet. Yet all of us are in favor of evidence-based approaches to weight loss and sharing information.9 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »GlassAngyl wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »GlassAngyl wrote: »Shame about all the people who continue to argue against Keto, while millions more people across the globe continue to be trapped and become part of the obesity epidemic. Arguing that just go ahead and eat whatever you like as long as you stay within calories.
The modern 'fad' for carb centric diets started after WW2 but it clearly hasn't worked, as evidenced by looking around while at the mall.
It's about time people started waking up and getting back to the position of Ketosis being absolutely okay and a natural experience that many people went into and out of regularly over hundreds of thousands of years of man's evolution.
You say it so much nicer than I do..
Course I envy those who can carb and lose weight.. but I agree.. it APPARENTLY isn't the easiest way or more obese people wouldn't struggle and give up and restart over and over and over and.. well you get the idea. The only complaint from anti ketoers is from those who continued to over eat on it trying to hit macros .. not sure how that's possible but I think they are saying "do it for me so I don't have to do any work".. and from those who agreed it worked but didn't feel it was varied enough in choices because they listened to the psycho keto cults that restricted everything and didn't tell them about keto breads and noodles and deserts (or they are just lazy and if it isn't prepackaged it's not an option..) Now their minds are permanently poisoned to the idea.
I hate you're doing it wrong posts - no one ever appreciates them and they're usually not true. Some people don't respond well to keto, some people don't like the food, some people experience no tangible benefits, some people don't lose weight, some people do overeat - it doesn't work for them - and that's ok, it doesn't have to.
That it works for you is enough, right?
Exactly what I've been saying literally this ENTIRE TIME! But no.. let's pick and choose what they want to see..
1: "Keto (blurrs out important part) everyone.
2: It worked for me because (blah blah blah I don't want to hear this!)
3:But like I said, if I could do regular cico. I (she hates cico and thinks it's the wrong way! I hate her!)
4: Don't let others discourage you. There is more than one way to do keto. (OMG she just promoted keto!)
5: You may find you don't like it and prefer low carb instead. (Ugh! I hate keto promoters!)
6 and 7: But until you try for yourself, you won't know for sure if it's for you. Some do better on a higher (I refuse to listen to this crap!) diet. (All she did was promote her way of eating!)
So.. let's try this again but fill in the missed blanks. 1:(Isn't for) 2:(Pro's of why it helped me) 3:(Cons of why it may not work for you) 4:(They won't know unless they try for themselves so why bash it?? Unless you are promoting YOUR WOE!) 5:(Maybe they don't want high carbs and only know of two ways.. here is a chance to show them that there are variations to choose from.) 6:(carbs.. yeah.. I promoted something that didn't work for me. Hmmm. That it may or may not work for them is enough, right?) 7:(And back at square one as everything anti-ketoers are against is blanked out as they ignore the part where I promote ALL methods just so long as they TRY it without being biased by others.)
And just so we are clear.. vegetarians and vegans get attacked less than those who want to try keto or low carb. And some of them are keto as well! It isn't easy for vegans though.. Yet, if a VEGAN can attempt to eat high fat and low carb on their TRULY RESTRICTIVE diet, why can't a curious newbie try it for themselves before being attacked and scared away because others found it too hard for them? That's why they add friends who are like minded.. To seek advice when they are confused.
I agree with you 100% - you've nailed the experience most have with the general forums and it's why so few who eat low carb post here. All of the what-about-mah-vegtables, it's not sustainable, your breath, your kidneys, you can't cut out a whole food group, everything in moderation and the number the of woo's on posts for anyone who takes the time to share their positive experience with the diet is wrong. And it's absolutely shameful the ignorant, anti low carb bias is the loudest voice on the forums even when it's recommended by a posters doctor.
I hate all of that but the reverse it true too - a ketogenic diet isn't right for everyone and they should be able to share that.
I only had 3 woo's on my post about my personal experiences with the diet. LOL
The board is getting more accepting of LCHF over time. A couple of years ago a keto thread would get more of the woo science responses than there is now. People know more about it and can approach it from an educated position.
I think a common argument now is against sustainability, but I have not seen anything that shows LCHF is less sustainable than any other diet. Again, I think that comes down to a person's circumstances. I could never maintain moderation in all things but I'm a few years into LCHF and keto.
The other most common seems to be the need to point out that keto is not magic. I have no idea if that is as common in vegetarian, vegan, Mediterranean, SAD, paleo/primal, clean eating, or moderation threads since I do not look into those as much. I doubt it though.... Well, maybe in paleo threads.aernest825 wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »I eat less vegetables now just because I eat less than I did before but a day that looks like this (fruit & vegetables in the morning, salad for lunch and roasted vegetables for dinner) isn't unusual and I imagine it is a lot of vegetables for most (low carb or not):
Summary: 2.5 pounds or 14 servings of vegetables, 37 net carbs
Yes, but for ketosis, you are getting a LOT of carbs ; generally 20g max for those following keto
I agree with the previous poster. Ketogenic diets just has you in ketosis all the time. The carb level needed to maintain that can really vary. Many can do fine with 50g, athletes with timed carbs may go over 200g, inactive people with insulin resistance may need to stay under 20g, and some people find they feel best when their carbs are as close to zero as possible. There is a lot of variation.
Whatever the diet of the month is, generally gets the most attention.. Paleo was big a few years ago, and vegetarian/plant based still get some reactions as well (especially when they demonize dairy/meats). The problems occur when those who are new make the normal outrageous claims. If you need some examples on the claims, I can look through some of my recent threads and point some out, lol. Heck.. in one post, I could probably list the normal nonsense that I have heard from every major style diet.
ETA: I blame blogs, youtube and netflix.
True there are flavours of the month/year. I get that. It just sometimes feels to me, and this is just my perception, that these diets do get attacked because they are named diets that have been, or are, popular. It does not necessarily make the health benefits that some experience on these diets (not just keto) wrong.
Some diets can help some people's health. Keto can be very good for those with IR, NAFLD, PCOS, epilepsy, some brain cancers or along with some therapies like chemo, some possible help with Alzheimer's disease (there -I came along and said it ), and for some with CAD, IBS or other ailments. Other diets (seems to usually be whole foods based) can help with some of these same problems or other issues. Specific diets can also help with weight loss if they help with satiety, stabilized BG, better energy, better portion control, more balanced hormones, or for other reasons.
For those who finally find a diet that is improving their health, or making weight loss possible after years of struggle, a specific diet can feel like a miracle cure to that person. Sure, it won't work for everyone, just like all drugs do not work for everyone, but we often see people being told that their experience is wrong, or that they are wrong, simply because instead of saying "some people can be helped" they said "it will help". All that is needed there is a gentle correction that it may not work for all. Instead it can feel like an attack on someone who is new and just wanting to share their excitement.
It's almost like a kid showing off his new toy car and getting the response of "Meh. I don't like cars. It's not great" from those who are older and more experienced. A response of "I'm glad you like it," might fit better, and without the disclaimer of "but I don't like it." KWIM?
Of course on this thread, the OP asked for personal pros and cons. Giving your own experiences, both pros and cons was asked for. An "I didn't like it," fits perfectly in this thread. But saying someone's pro or con is wrong is a bit presumptuous - on both sides.
This is just my perception and opinion though. No one else's.9 -
I've known 2 people who have done Keto. I've done CICO. I've lost over 80lbs and been maintaining within 5 pounds +/- for 3 years approx. Both people who did Keto- one is gaining as we speak (Ican see it on her). The other (my husband) gained it all back and then some.
If it works for you great! But both people got sick of being on such a restrictive diet that they went back to their normal and gained.
Where as I'm still happy as can be
4 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »GlassAngyl wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »GlassAngyl wrote: »Shame about all the people who continue to argue against Keto, while millions more people across the globe continue to be trapped and become part of the obesity epidemic. Arguing that just go ahead and eat whatever you like as long as you stay within calories.
The modern 'fad' for carb centric diets started after WW2 but it clearly hasn't worked, as evidenced by looking around while at the mall.
It's about time people started waking up and getting back to the position of Ketosis being absolutely okay and a natural experience that many people went into and out of regularly over hundreds of thousands of years of man's evolution.
You say it so much nicer than I do..
Course I envy those who can carb and lose weight.. but I agree.. it APPARENTLY isn't the easiest way or more obese people wouldn't struggle and give up and restart over and over and over and.. well you get the idea. The only complaint from anti ketoers is from those who continued to over eat on it trying to hit macros .. not sure how that's possible but I think they are saying "do it for me so I don't have to do any work".. and from those who agreed it worked but didn't feel it was varied enough in choices because they listened to the psycho keto cults that restricted everything and didn't tell them about keto breads and noodles and deserts (or they are just lazy and if it isn't prepackaged it's not an option..) Now their minds are permanently poisoned to the idea.
I hate you're doing it wrong posts - no one ever appreciates them and they're usually not true. Some people don't respond well to keto, some people don't like the food, some people experience no tangible benefits, some people don't lose weight, some people do overeat - it doesn't work for them - and that's ok, it doesn't have to.
That it works for you is enough, right?
Exactly what I've been saying literally this ENTIRE TIME! But no.. let's pick and choose what they want to see..
1: "Keto (blurrs out important part) everyone.
2: It worked for me because (blah blah blah I don't want to hear this!)
3:But like I said, if I could do regular cico. I (she hates cico and thinks it's the wrong way! I hate her!)
4: Don't let others discourage you. There is more than one way to do keto. (OMG she just promoted keto!)
5: You may find you don't like it and prefer low carb instead. (Ugh! I hate keto promoters!)
6 and 7: But until you try for yourself, you won't know for sure if it's for you. Some do better on a higher (I refuse to listen to this crap!) diet. (All she did was promote her way of eating!)
So.. let's try this again but fill in the missed blanks. 1:(Isn't for) 2:(Pro's of why it helped me) 3:(Cons of why it may not work for you) 4:(They won't know unless they try for themselves so why bash it?? Unless you are promoting YOUR WOE!) 5:(Maybe they don't want high carbs and only know of two ways.. here is a chance to show them that there are variations to choose from.) 6:(carbs.. yeah.. I promoted something that didn't work for me. Hmmm. That it may or may not work for them is enough, right?) 7:(And back at square one as everything anti-ketoers are against is blanked out as they ignore the part where I promote ALL methods just so long as they TRY it without being biased by others.)
And just so we are clear.. vegetarians and vegans get attacked less than those who want to try keto or low carb. And some of them are keto as well! It isn't easy for vegans though.. Yet, if a VEGAN can attempt to eat high fat and low carb on their TRULY RESTRICTIVE diet, why can't a curious newbie try it for themselves before being attacked and scared away because others found it too hard for them? That's why they add friends who are like minded.. To seek advice when they are confused.
I agree with you 100% - you've nailed the experience most have with the general forums and it's why so few who eat low carb post here. All of the what-about-mah-vegtables, it's not sustainable, your breath, your kidneys, you can't cut out a whole food group, everything in moderation and the number the of woo's on posts for anyone who takes the time to share their positive experience with the diet is wrong. And it's absolutely shameful the ignorant, anti low carb bias is the loudest voice on the forums even when it's recommended by a posters doctor.
I hate all of that but the reverse it true too - a ketogenic diet isn't right for everyone and they should be able to share that.
I only had 3 woo's on my post about my personal experiences with the diet. LOL
The board is getting more accepting of LCHF over time. A couple of years ago a keto thread would get more of the woo science responses than there is now. People know more about it and can approach it from an educated position.
I think a common argument now is against sustainability, but I have not seen anything that shows LCHF is less sustainable than any other diet. Again, I think that comes down to a person's circumstances. I could never maintain moderation in all things but I'm a few years into LCHF and keto.
The other most common seems to be the need to point out that keto is not magic. I have no idea if that is as common in vegetarian, vegan, Mediterranean, SAD, paleo/primal, clean eating, or moderation threads since I do not look into those as much. I doubt it though.... Well, maybe in paleo threads.aernest825 wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »I eat less vegetables now just because I eat less than I did before but a day that looks like this (fruit & vegetables in the morning, salad for lunch and roasted vegetables for dinner) isn't unusual and I imagine it is a lot of vegetables for most (low carb or not):
Summary: 2.5 pounds or 14 servings of vegetables, 37 net carbs
Yes, but for ketosis, you are getting a LOT of carbs ; generally 20g max for those following keto
I agree with the previous poster. Ketogenic diets just has you in ketosis all the time. The carb level needed to maintain that can really vary. Many can do fine with 50g, athletes with timed carbs may go over 200g, inactive people with insulin resistance may need to stay under 20g, and some people find they feel best when their carbs are as close to zero as possible. There is a lot of variation.
Whatever the diet of the month is, generally gets the most attention.. Paleo was big a few years ago, and vegetarian/plant based still get some reactions as well (especially when they demonize dairy/meats). The problems occur when those who are new make the normal outrageous claims. If you need some examples on the claims, I can look through some of my recent threads and point some out, lol. Heck.. in one post, I could probably list the normal nonsense that I have heard from every major style diet.
ETA: I blame blogs, youtube and netflix.
True there are flavours of the month/year. I get that. It just sometimes feels to me, and this is just my perception, that these diets do get attacked because they are named diets that have been, or are, popular. It does not necessarily make the health benefits that some experience on these diets (not just keto) wrong.
Some diets can help some people's health. Keto can be very good for those with IR, NAFLD, PCOS, epilepsy, some brain cancers or along with some therapies like chemo, some possible help with Alzheimer's disease (there -I came along and said it ), and for some with CAD, IBS or other ailments. Other diets (seems to usually be whole foods based) can help with some of these same problems or other issues. Specific diets can also help with weight loss if they help with satiety, stabilized BG, better energy, better portion control, more balanced hormones, or for other reasons.
For those who finally find a diet that is improving their health, or making weight loss possible after years of struggle, a specific diet can feel like a miracle cure to that person. Sure, it won't work for everyone, just like all drugs do not work for everyone, but we often see people being told that their experience is wrong, or that they are wrong, simply because instead of saying "some people can be helped" they said "it will help". All that is needed there is a gentle correction that it may not work for all. Instead it can feel like an attack on someone who is new and just wanting to share their excitement.
It's almost like a kid showing off his new toy car and getting the response of "Meh. I don't like cars. It's not great" from those who are older and more experienced. A response of "I'm glad you like it," might fit better, and without the disclaimer of "but I don't like it." KWIM?
Of course on this thread, the OP asked for personal pros and cons. Giving your own experiences, both pros and cons was asked for. An "I didn't like it," fits perfectly in this thread. But saying someone's pro or con is wrong is a bit presumptuous - on both sides.
This is just my perception and opinion though. No one else's.
Like you said...when it works people want to scream it from the roof top but I truly believe reguardless of what type of diet you go on it still boils down to cico for weight loss.
Loseing weight will help with all types of issues people have and it's not always how you lost it. For me I cut added sugars...since mfp message boards seem to favor iifym I have to be careful about how I talk about cutting sugar... kind of like you do about the possible health benefits for people following keto.
IMO At the end of the day we all just have to find what works best for each of us and do that1 -
True there are flavours of the month/year. I get that. It just sometimes feels to me, and this is just my perception, that these diets do get attacked because they are named diets that have been, or are, popular. It does not necessarily make the health benefits that some experience on these diets (not just keto) wrong.
Some diets can help some people's health. Keto can be very good for those with IR, NAFLD, PCOS, epilepsy, some brain cancers or along with some therapies like chemo, some possible help with Alzheimer's disease (there -I came along and said it ), and for some with CAD, IBS or other ailments. Other diets (seems to usually be whole foods based) can help with some of these same problems or other issues. Specific diets can also help with weight loss if they help with satiety, stabilized BG, better energy, better portion control, more balanced hormones, or for other reasons.
For those who finally find a diet that is improving their health, or making weight loss possible after years of struggle, a specific diet can feel like a miracle cure to that person. Sure, it won't work for everyone, just like all drugs do not work for everyone, but we often see people being told that their experience is wrong, or that they are wrong, simply because instead of saying "some people can be helped" they said "it will help". All that is needed there is a gentle correction that it may not work for all. Instead it can feel like an attack on someone who is new and just wanting to share their excitement.
It's almost like a kid showing off his new toy car and getting the response of "Meh. I don't like cars. It's not great" from those who are older and more experienced. A response of "I'm glad you like it," might fit better, and without the disclaimer of "but I don't like it." KWIM?
Of course on this thread, the OP asked for personal pros and cons. Giving your own experiences, both pros and cons was asked for. An "I didn't like it," fits perfectly in this thread. But saying someone's pro or con is wrong is a bit presumptuous - on both sides.
This is just my perception and opinion though. No one else's.
Ironically, all those perceptions I share with all the keto-zealots and why i regularly correct people in keto threads. Personally, whatever diet a person finds sustainable is great. Heck, I have trained people from keto to vegan. I will never tell people to not follow a diet.
I will note, in my mod experience, no thread is worse than one from an overzealous new vegan (generally a teen) who thinks that we are all murdering animals, drinking animal puss, etc.. Because even experienced and educated vegans will battle against them.3 -
I totally agree that the "shout it from the rooftop" mentality is someone has found something that works for them. I dont think there's anything wrong with that as long as it's understood their truth is not universal.
I just did a "one year keto" post in the LCHF forum a week ago or so. I would never ever post it here. I can only imagine what responses and "woos" I would get even though I feel I am pretty level headed about it and always do a YMMV disclaimer. Sad part is maybe it would have helped someone out here but selfishly I don't want to deal with the headaches and blow back of such a post. Don't have the time or inclination. The atmosphere here can be pretty toxic if you aren't in "team moderation" club. Seems most of the folks in LCHF already understand things are NOT universal and it rarely needs to be said. Good questions are asked and answered in a friendly non-judgemental way.
At my age though I don't give a flying monkey what anyone thinks about the way I eat. When I have time I will answer questions as it pertained to myself only. Try to remember the YMMV disclaimer and try and stop Keto nonsense when I can. It's all anyone can do.5 -
I am Keto, don't have bad breath, don't eat loads of meat (many things contain protein) and the fat in my diet is not all dairy (fish for example has lots of healthy fat). I eat veggies and fruit every day but as stated by another member here...you have to choose your foods and manage your diet plan and the carb by making choices. Even if your counting calories, your making decisions and choices every day about what you eat. My optimal calorie count is in the same health range recommended by many plans and even MFP at 1300-1600.
Many Keto/low carb recipes are similar to gluten free recipes. Gluten is associated with inflammation and allergies. This tends to help Keto followers to also improve similar ailments. There is not a think I eat that I cant find a keto based/log carb recipe to substitute. My family can rarely tell the difference between those recipes and other less healthy forms. This week, I have had a piece of NY Baked Cheese cake for dessert, everyday! last week it was Chocolate cookies...the week before, Peanut butter Cookies. I do use a couple of non white flower substitutes when baking but Walmart and Kroger and Publix all carry them, all the time. I had the most amazing parmesan crusted Talipa last night with green beans. I grow a 1ac organic veggie garden and eat everything from tomatoes, egg plant and cabbage from it.
20g of carbs is not required for ketosis. It can be 30-40-50. It just depends on your goals. What is required is a specific balance of carbs/fat/protein to accomplish ketosis. Just loading on protein and being low in carbs in not the process. The web contains several good calculators to help you determine the marcos that work for you height/age/body fat content and your goals. They will also tell you the calorie counts for optimal results. You can actually play with scenarios in these calculators to tweak it to something that fits your life style. In fact, as you body fat decreases, you should recalculate because it affects ketosis and your macros.
Managing my weight and building muscle (with exercise of course) has improved for me, so much on the Keto Diet.
7 -
I forgot to mention...I travel sea to shining sea for my work about 50/50 of the time. Because I have educated myself on options/foods/restaurants common in all areas of the US, I never have trouble staying Keto when on the road. It is no harder than awareness of calorie counts in the same situation. I can manage fast food with kids and I never have issues celebrating with friends. Knowledge and management...just like anything else.1
-
lisawolfinger wrote: »I am Keto, don't have bad breath, don't eat loads of meat (many things contain protein) and the fat in my diet is not all dairy (fish for example has lots of healthy fat). I eat veggies and fruit every day but as stated by another member here...you have to choose your foods and manage your diet plan and the carb by making choices. Even if your counting calories, your making decisions and choices every day about what you eat. My optimal calorie count is in the same health range recommended by many plans and even MFP at 1300-1600.
Many Keto/low carb recipes are similar to gluten free recipes. Gluten is associated with inflammation and allergies. This tends to help Keto followers to also improve similar ailments. There is not a think I eat that I cant find a keto based/log carb recipe to substitute. My family can rarely tell the difference between those recipes and other less healthy forms. This week, I have had a piece of NY Baked Cheese cake for dessert, everyday! last week it was Chocolate cookies...the week before, Peanut butter Cookies. I do use a couple of non white flower substitutes when baking but Walmart and Kroger and Publix all carry them, all the time. I had the most amazing parmesan crusted Talipa last night with green beans. I grow a 1ac organic veggie garden and eat everything from tomatoes, egg plant and cabbage from it.
20g of carbs is not required for ketosis. It can be 30-40-50. It just depends on your goals. What is required is a specific balance of carbs/fat/protein to accomplish ketosis. Just loading on protein and being low in carbs in not the process. The web contains several good calculators to help you determine the marcos that work for you height/age/body fat content and your goals. They will also tell you the calorie counts for optimal results. You can actually play with scenarios in these calculators to tweak it to something that fits your life style. In fact, as you body fat decreases, you should recalculate because it affects ketosis and your macros.
Managing my weight and building muscle (with exercise of course) has improved for me, so much on the Keto Diet.
The bold is only true in those with celiac and allergies to wheat; similar to nuts or dairy. Outside of that, it doesn't cause chronic inflammation. Even more so, whole grains has actually been shown to improve health.
7 -
True there are flavours of the month/year. I get that. It just sometimes feels to me, and this is just my perception, that these diets do get attacked because they are named diets that have been, or are, popular. It does not necessarily make the health benefits that some experience on these diets (not just keto) wrong.
Some diets can help some people's health. Keto can be very good for those with IR, NAFLD, PCOS, epilepsy, some brain cancers or along with some therapies like chemo, some possible help with Alzheimer's disease (there -I came along and said it ), and for some with CAD, IBS or other ailments. Other diets (seems to usually be whole foods based) can help with some of these same problems or other issues. Specific diets can also help with weight loss if they help with satiety, stabilized BG, better energy, better portion control, more balanced hormones, or for other reasons.
For those who finally find a diet that is improving their health, or making weight loss possible after years of struggle, a specific diet can feel like a miracle cure to that person. Sure, it won't work for everyone, just like all drugs do not work for everyone, but we often see people being told that their experience is wrong, or that they are wrong, simply because instead of saying "some people can be helped" they said "it will help". All that is needed there is a gentle correction that it may not work for all. Instead it can feel like an attack on someone who is new and just wanting to share their excitement.
It's almost like a kid showing off his new toy car and getting the response of "Meh. I don't like cars. It's not great" from those who are older and more experienced. A response of "I'm glad you like it," might fit better, and without the disclaimer of "but I don't like it." KWIM?
Of course on this thread, the OP asked for personal pros and cons. Giving your own experiences, both pros and cons was asked for. An "I didn't like it," fits perfectly in this thread. But saying someone's pro or con is wrong is a bit presumptuous - on both sides.
This is just my perception and opinion though. No one else's.
Ironically, all those perceptions I share with all the keto-zealots and why i regularly correct people in keto threads. Personally, whatever diet a person finds sustainable is great. Heck, I have trained people from keto to vegan. I will never tell people to not follow a diet.
I will note, in my mod experience, no thread is worse than one from an overzealous new vegan (generally a teen) who thinks that we are all murdering animals, drinking animal puss, etc.. Because even experienced and educated vegans will battle against them.
Animal puss? mmm. LOL
I can see vegan converts being enthusiastic since veganism is almost as much a philosophy and way of life as it is a way of eating. Makes sense... Makes me curious to check out more vegan threads too. 1
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