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Pros and cons of a Keto Diet
Replies
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Pro: Can help you lose weight quickly, cures T2 diabetes if you stick with it, can resolve thyroid and PCOS issues. Can also be helpful if you have cancer as it tends to starve cancer cells from glucose.
Cons: Very restrictive and NOT for T1 diabetics, dangerous for them.
It can be a lifestyle/diet, or it can be used as a tool for a week or two to shed lbs after a vacation. Many tools in the toolbox.
Not any more dangerous than any other diet. There are several very active T1 diabetics in the LCHF forum who have been LCHF for years and swear by this WOE.1 -
Interesting blog on what keto is and is not:
https://www.marksdailyapple.com/where-i-part-ways-with-the-popular-keto-movement/
While this is one of the more logical pieces of information I have seen from him, for some reason his writings still get to me.
I haven't read enough of him in the last 5 years to be gassed by his writing anymore. But I was at one time. I thought this article was one of the better ones he's written. He actually pokes criticism at a couple of people he used to promote like Attia.0 -
The biggest con of the Keto diet is dealing with some of it's proponents. Many of whom simply can't seem to contain themselves from advocating rank nonsense. Misleading people, especially those who are new and often do not know any better, is my biggest issue with the "diet"7
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JustRobby1 wrote: »The biggest con of the Keto diet is dealing with some of it's proponents. Many of whom simply can't seem to contain themselves from advocating rank nonsense. Misleading people, especially those who are new and often do not know any better, is my biggest issue with the "diet"
So technically it is not the diet that bothers you, but people who are misinformed or uneducated in this specific diet? Ignorance?
You may want to consider avoiding keto threads. I find it simpler to avoid threads that I know will irritate me.
2 -
Interesting blog on what keto is and is not:
https://www.marksdailyapple.com/where-i-part-ways-with-the-popular-keto-movement/
While this is one of the more logical pieces of information I have seen from him, for some reason his writings still get to me.
I don't read him often but someone shared this in the low carb forum and it had a lot of support there.2 -
JustRobby1 wrote: »The biggest con of the Keto diet is dealing with some of it's proponents. Many of whom simply can't seem to contain themselves from advocating rank nonsense. Misleading people, especially those who are new and often do not know any better, is my biggest issue with the "diet"
So technically it is not the diet that bothers you, but people who are misinformed or uneducated in this specific diet? Ignorance?
You may want to consider avoiding keto threads. I find it simpler to avoid threads that I know will irritate me.
They normally do not get away with it for long in any event, as other people are quick to chime in also, as they have here. This is why they tend to stick with anecdotes, since they are more difficult to refute, or else vague innuendo, cherry picked or illegitimate data, or flat out subterfuge when all else fails.
Experience of threads like this has taught me that when confronted with an obvious vague falsehood the Keto crowd will just make up further vague falsehoods to obscure and detract from the original. It's like trying to have an intelligent conversation with a conspiracy theorist.3 -
JustRobby1 wrote: »JustRobby1 wrote: »The biggest con of the Keto diet is dealing with some of it's proponents. Many of whom simply can't seem to contain themselves from advocating rank nonsense. Misleading people, especially those who are new and often do not know any better, is my biggest issue with the "diet"
So technically it is not the diet that bothers you, but people who are misinformed or uneducated in this specific diet? Ignorance?
You may want to consider avoiding keto threads. I find it simpler to avoid threads that I know will irritate me.
They normally do not get away with it for long in any event, as other people are quick to chime in also, as they have here. This is why they tend to stick with anecdotes, since they are more difficult to refute, or else vague innuendo, cherry picked or illegitimate data, or flat out subterfuge when all else fails.
Experience of threads like this has taught me that when confronted with an obvious vague falsehood the Keto crowd will just make up further vague falsehoods to obscure and detract from the original. It's like trying to have an intelligent conversation with a conspiracy theorist.
Singling out one particular group shows ignorance on your part because those uniformed zealots are a part of every single diet out there. And there will be more of them as it relates to trendy diets. So if those types bother you, it might be worth not joining those threads and just let it go.8 -
Interesting blog on what keto is and is not:
https://www.marksdailyapple.com/where-i-part-ways-with-the-popular-keto-movement/
While this is one of the more logical pieces of information I have seen from him, for some reason his writings still get to me.
I don't read him often but someone shared this in the low carb forum and it had a lot of support there.
Im shocked you say that
2 -
JustRobby1 wrote: »JustRobby1 wrote: »The biggest con of the Keto diet is dealing with some of it's proponents. Many of whom simply can't seem to contain themselves from advocating rank nonsense. Misleading people, especially those who are new and often do not know any better, is my biggest issue with the "diet"
So technically it is not the diet that bothers you, but people who are misinformed or uneducated in this specific diet? Ignorance?
You may want to consider avoiding keto threads. I find it simpler to avoid threads that I know will irritate me.
They normally do not get away with it for long in any event, as other people are quick to chime in also, as they have here. This is why they tend to stick with anecdotes, since they are more difficult to refute, or else vague innuendo, cherry picked or illegitimate data, or flat out subterfuge when all else fails.
Experience of threads like this has taught me that when confronted with an obvious vague falsehood the Keto crowd will just make up further vague falsehoods to obscure and detract from the original. It's like trying to have an intelligent conversation with a conspiracy theorist.
Singling out one particular group shows ignorance on your part because those uniformed zealots are a part of every single diet out there. And there will be more of them as it relates to trendy diets. So if those types bother you, i might be worth not joining the threads and just let it go.
Can't argue with that one, except to say it is far from ignorant to recognize historical trends and their propensity within certain groups. Though you have to hand it to them in one respect, they have staying power despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of their claims have almost zero credibility.
To your other point, I have little difficulty disagreeing without being disagreeable.1 -
stanmann571 wrote: »Pro: can help you control your epilepsy
Con: can be dangerous - pay close attention to your doctor & dietician
As far as I know, a ketogenic diet is not dangerous unless you have a problem with fat metabolism or possibly familial hypercholesterolemia. Sort of like me saying tree nuts and gluten are dangerous. They aren't really unless you have a tree nut allergy or celiac disease. Same goes for a very low carb diet.
Unless you are thinking of diabetic ketoacidosis? Thankfully that is not a risk unless one has T1D and a situation where insulin was very low so blood glucose AND ketones are very high - at the same time. Someone eating low carb will never experience that unless they are T1D and it is not well managed in an acute situation.
My doctor actually did recommemd low carb to me.
And my other doctor recommended less fat and higher carb. LOL 
There are also issues with causing/aggravating kidney disorders.
No. Ketosis does not cause kidney problems. It can benefit those with kidney issues from T2D though.
Ketogenic diets are not typically high protein.
I think you need to get out more.
Perhaps in your little corner of the world, that may be true, but for the typical dieter going to keto/LC. They're going High protein.2 -
Been on it for a little while now. I did lose weight on Atkins but it was really touch and go and very sensitive to any overage in protein or carb. I think the macronutrient mix was borderline for me cuz i was turning any excess protein into sugar (glucogenesis). I was afraid to go over on fat so i probably upped the protein a little, but more lean protein (chicken breast, tuna) is not very satiating. The extra fats wrapped around the protein, e.g. skin on chicken thighs, tuna stuffed avocado, are very satisfying (to me) However, low carb before is the only diet I tend to lose weight on. I tend to be insulin resistant, so carbs really mess with my blood sugar. I'm not diagnosed but i'm likely pre diabetic (at 60 yrs old).
Just to clarify the "man as a grain eater" topic. Our ancestors were around were for about six million years, modern man evolved about 200,000 years ago, agriculture, which made grains plentiful, was developed about 12,000 years ago.
In modern times, cultures that existed primarily on animals and animal fats and fewer carbs had demonstrably less incidence of heart disease ("The Big Fat Surprise", Nina Teicholz).
I'm starting to lose significant weight; weight that has been on for over 10 years. Not only that, but my experience is much like that GlassAngyl. I haven't taken an NSAID (e.g. Alleve) for 2 weeks and my psoriatic arthritis seems gone. Yeah, the breath thing, but that goes away. I don't have a sugar/insulin "crash" after every meal. If you drink a lot of water, that's minimal. You can have a lot of delicious things, but not a lot of carbs. My body seems to have adapted to it relatively quickly.
I'm allowed 2000 calories a day and I'm targeting 70/20/10 fat / protein / carbs, so 10% carbs. That's low but that is 200 calories of carbs which is 50 g of carbs per day. A whole potato is only 37 g, so Tuscan soup would be below that is you have one serving and make it yourself and there is no added sugar. Most processed and restaurant versions of any recipe adds sugar, primarily to accommodate "american" palates. So as long i follow my diet the rest of the day, there are very few carbs I really CAN'T have. I had "real" eggs benedict yesterday, the english muffin is only 25g of carbs.
There are variants of the diet including "cycled" ketone and "targeted" ketone that allows higher portions of carbs carefully timed before workouts as long as you NEVER eat carbs and fats at the same time.
The diet does seem to work. The medical problems associated with carbs and sugars, and cooked and processed animal fats are quite extensive and serious. I feel getting them out of a diet is a good thing. You can have your own opinions, but you can't have your own biology.
I agree also with J72FIT, it may not be for everyone. More active people with less insulin resistance could probably have more carbs than i eat now, but this works for me.5 -
stanmann571 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Pro: can help you control your epilepsy
Con: can be dangerous - pay close attention to your doctor & dietician
As far as I know, a ketogenic diet is not dangerous unless you have a problem with fat metabolism or possibly familial hypercholesterolemia. Sort of like me saying tree nuts and gluten are dangerous. They aren't really unless you have a tree nut allergy or celiac disease. Same goes for a very low carb diet.
Unless you are thinking of diabetic ketoacidosis? Thankfully that is not a risk unless one has T1D and a situation where insulin was very low so blood glucose AND ketones are very high - at the same time. Someone eating low carb will never experience that unless they are T1D and it is not well managed in an acute situation.
My doctor actually did recommemd low carb to me. And my other doctor recommended less fat and higher carb. LOL
There are also issues with causing/aggravating kidney disorders.
No. Ketosis does not cause kidney problems. It can benefit those with kidney issues from T2D though.
Ketogenic diets are not typically high protein.
I think you need to get out more.
Perhaps in your little corner of the world, that may be true, but for the typical dieter going to keto/LC. They're going High protein.
I think you tend to see higher protein ketogenic diets in the body building community a bit more, especially during contest prep; hell, most people don't realise the Lyle McDonald is one of the most knowledgeable researchers of ketogenic.. Nutritional ketosis tends to get protein a bit lower. But it's really splitting hairs at that point.2 -
Been on it for a little while now. I did lose weight on Atkins but it was really touch and go and very sensitive to any overage in protein or carb. I think the macronutrient mix was borderline for me cuz i was turning any excess protein into sugar (glucogenesis). I was afraid to go over on fat so i probably upped the protein a little, but more lean protein (chicken breast, tuna) is not very satiating. The extra fats wrapped around the protein, e.g. skin on chicken thighs, tuna stuffed avocado, are very satisfying (to me) However, low carb before is the only diet I tend to lose weight on. I tend to be insulin resistant, so carbs really mess with my blood sugar. I'm not diagnosed but i'm likely pre diabetic (at 60 yrs old).
Just to clarify the "man as a grain eater" topic. Our ancestors were around were for about six million years, modern man evolved about 200,000 years ago, agriculture, which made grains plentiful, was developed about 12,000 years ago.
In modern times, cultures that existed primarily on animals and animal fats and fewer carbs had demonstrably less incidence of heart disease ("The Big Fat Surprise", Nina Teicholz).
I'm starting to lose significant weight; weight that has been on for over 10 years. Not only that, but my experience is much like that GlassAngyl. I haven't taken an NSAID (e.g. Alleve) for 2 weeks and my psoriatic arthritis seems gone. Yeah, the breath thing, but that goes away. I don't have a sugar/insulin "crash" after every meal. If you drink a lot of water, that's minimal. You can have a lot of delicious things, but not a lot of carbs. My body seems to have adapted to it relatively quickly.
I'm allowed 2000 calories a day and I'm targeting 70/20/10 fat / protein / carbs, so 10% carbs. That's low but that is 200 calories of carbs which is 50 g of carbs per day. A whole potato is only 37 g, so Tuscan soup would be below that is you have one serving and make it yourself and there is no added sugar. Most processed and restaurant versions of any recipe adds sugar, primarily to accommodate "american" palates. So as long i follow my diet the rest of the day, there are very few carbs I really CAN'T have. I had "real" eggs benedict yesterday, the english muffin is only 25g of carbs.
There are variants of the diet including "cycled" ketone and "targeted" ketone that allows higher portions of carbs carefully timed before workouts as long as you NEVER eat carbs and fats at the same time.
The diet does seem to work. The medical problems associated with carbs and sugars, and cooked and processed animal fats are quite extensive and serious. I feel getting them out of a diet is a good thing. You can have your own opinions, but you can't have your own biology.
I agree also with J72FIT, it may not be for everyone. More active people with less insulin resistance could probably have more carbs than i eat now, but this works for me.
Just to point out, fats can convert to glucose too. Also, our ancestors had a variety of diets based on geographic locations, weren't at populated as us, nor lived as long as us. So of course there are going to be higher rates of health issues, because there are more people, who live longer and on top of that, there is actual data to quantify (they didn't really have medical records back then).
If you look at the current longest living people, they aren't anywhere near low carb. In fact, it's the complete opposite.5 -
JustRobby1 wrote: »JustRobby1 wrote: »JustRobby1 wrote: »The biggest con of the Keto diet is dealing with some of it's proponents. Many of whom simply can't seem to contain themselves from advocating rank nonsense. Misleading people, especially those who are new and often do not know any better, is my biggest issue with the "diet"
So technically it is not the diet that bothers you, but people who are misinformed or uneducated in this specific diet? Ignorance?
You may want to consider avoiding keto threads. I find it simpler to avoid threads that I know will irritate me.
They normally do not get away with it for long in any event, as other people are quick to chime in also, as they have here. This is why they tend to stick with anecdotes, since they are more difficult to refute, or else vague innuendo, cherry picked or illegitimate data, or flat out subterfuge when all else fails.
Experience of threads like this has taught me that when confronted with an obvious vague falsehood the Keto crowd will just make up further vague falsehoods to obscure and detract from the original. It's like trying to have an intelligent conversation with a conspiracy theorist.
Singling out one particular group shows ignorance on your part because those uniformed zealots are a part of every single diet out there. And there will be more of them as it relates to trendy diets. So if those types bother you, i might be worth not joining the threads and just let it go.
Can't argue with that one, except to say it is far from ignorant to recognize historical trends and their propensity within certain groups. Though you have to hand it to them in one respect, they have staying power despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of their claims have almost zero credibility.
To your other point, I have little difficulty disagreeing without being disagreeable.
To address the ignorance. It is mind blowing that you stereotyped a group based on the fact you believe the misrepresentation of facts only pertains to a specific group of people based on a vocal minority. I have seen the same arguments from vegans, IF'ers, IIFYM, Paleo/Primal, to LCHF/Keto. Zealots follow every single diet.3 -
Been on it for a little while now. I did lose weight on Atkins but it was really touch and go and very sensitive to any overage in protein or carb. I think the macronutrient mix was borderline for me cuz i was turning any excess protein into sugar (glucogenesis). I was afraid to go over on fat so i probably upped the protein a little, but more lean protein (chicken breast, tuna) is not very satiating. The extra fats wrapped around the protein, e.g. skin on chicken thighs, tuna stuffed avocado, are very satisfying (to me) However, low carb before is the only diet I tend to lose weight on. I tend to be insulin resistant, so carbs really mess with my blood sugar. I'm not diagnosed but i'm likely pre diabetic (at 60 yrs old).
Just to clarify the "man as a grain eater" topic. Our ancestors were around were for about six million years, modern man evolved about 200,000 years ago, agriculture, which made grains plentiful, was developed about 12,000 years ago.
In modern times, cultures that existed primarily on animals and animal fats and fewer carbs had demonstrably less incidence of heart disease ("The Big Fat Surprise", Nina Teicholz).
I'm starting to lose significant weight; weight that has been on for over 10 years. Not only that, but my experience is much like that GlassAngyl. I haven't taken an NSAID (e.g. Alleve) for 2 weeks and my psoriatic arthritis seems gone. Yeah, the breath thing, but that goes away. I don't have a sugar/insulin "crash" after every meal. If you drink a lot of water, that's minimal. You can have a lot of delicious things, but not a lot of carbs. My body seems to have adapted to it relatively quickly.
I'm allowed 2000 calories a day and I'm targeting 70/20/10 fat / protein / carbs, so 10% carbs. That's low but that is 200 calories of carbs which is 50 g of carbs per day. A whole potato is only 37 g, so Tuscan soup would be below that is you have one serving and make it yourself and there is no added sugar. Most processed and restaurant versions of any recipe adds sugar, primarily to accommodate "american" palates. So as long i follow my diet the rest of the day, there are very few carbs I really CAN'T have. I had "real" eggs benedict yesterday, the english muffin is only 25g of carbs.
There are variants of the diet including "cycled" ketone and "targeted" ketone that allows higher portions of carbs carefully timed before workouts as long as you NEVER eat carbs and fats at the same time.
The diet does seem to work. The medical problems associated with carbs and sugars, and cooked and processed animal fats are quite extensive and serious. I feel getting them out of a diet is a good thing. You can have your own opinions, but you can't have your own biology.
I agree also with J72FIT, it may not be for everyone. More active people with less insulin resistance could probably have more carbs than i eat now, but this works for me.
In modern times, the cultures that have the lowest incidence of heart disease are the blue zones which are overwhelmingly HIGH carb.5 -
stanmann571 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Pro: can help you control your epilepsy
Con: can be dangerous - pay close attention to your doctor & dietician
As far as I know, a ketogenic diet is not dangerous unless you have a problem with fat metabolism or possibly familial hypercholesterolemia. Sort of like me saying tree nuts and gluten are dangerous. They aren't really unless you have a tree nut allergy or celiac disease. Same goes for a very low carb diet.
Unless you are thinking of diabetic ketoacidosis? Thankfully that is not a risk unless one has T1D and a situation where insulin was very low so blood glucose AND ketones are very high - at the same time. Someone eating low carb will never experience that unless they are T1D and it is not well managed in an acute situation.
My doctor actually did recommemd low carb to me. And my other doctor recommended less fat and higher carb. LOL
There are also issues with causing/aggravating kidney disorders.
No. Ketosis does not cause kidney problems. It can benefit those with kidney issues from T2D though.
Ketogenic diets are not typically high protein.
I think you need to get out more.
Perhaps in your little corner of the world, that may be true, but for the typical dieter going to keto/LC. They're going High protein.
Not true for me when i did keto. The biggest obstacle i faced was keeping my protein down to 20-25% (100ish grams), i most always went over.0 -
Interesting blog on what keto is and is not:
https://www.marksdailyapple.com/where-i-part-ways-with-the-popular-keto-movement/
While this is one of the more logical pieces of information I have seen from him, for some reason his writings still get to me.
I don't read him often but someone shared this in the low carb forum and it had a lot of support there.
Im shocked you say that 0 -
stanmann571 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Pro: can help you control your epilepsy
Con: can be dangerous - pay close attention to your doctor & dietician
As far as I know, a ketogenic diet is not dangerous unless you have a problem with fat metabolism or possibly familial hypercholesterolemia. Sort of like me saying tree nuts and gluten are dangerous. They aren't really unless you have a tree nut allergy or celiac disease. Same goes for a very low carb diet.
Unless you are thinking of diabetic ketoacidosis? Thankfully that is not a risk unless one has T1D and a situation where insulin was very low so blood glucose AND ketones are very high - at the same time. Someone eating low carb will never experience that unless they are T1D and it is not well managed in an acute situation.
My doctor actually did recommemd low carb to me. And my other doctor recommended less fat and higher carb. LOL
There are also issues with causing/aggravating kidney disorders.
No. Ketosis does not cause kidney problems. It can benefit those with kidney issues from T2D though.
Ketogenic diets are not typically high protein.
I think you need to get out more.
Perhaps in your little corner of the world, that may be true, but for the typical dieter going to keto/LC. They're going High protein.
I think you are incorrect. From what I have seen, the vast majority of keto'ers follow moderate protein.
Even when I eat carnivore (all animal = almost zero carb) my protein is rarely above 25%.1 -
Been on it for a little while now. I did lose weight on Atkins but it was really touch and go and very sensitive to any overage in protein or carb. I think the macronutrient mix was borderline for me cuz i was turning any excess protein into sugar (glucogenesis). I was afraid to go over on fat so i probably upped the protein a little, but more lean protein (chicken breast, tuna) is not very satiating. The extra fats wrapped around the protein, e.g. skin on chicken thighs, tuna stuffed avocado, are very satisfying (to me) However, low carb before is the only diet I tend to lose weight on. I tend to be insulin resistant, so carbs really mess with my blood sugar. I'm not diagnosed but i'm likely pre diabetic (at 60 yrs old).
Just to clarify the "man as a grain eater" topic. Our ancestors were around were for about six million years, modern man evolved about 200,000 years ago, agriculture, which made grains plentiful, was developed about 12,000 years ago.
In modern times, cultures that existed primarily on animals and animal fats and fewer carbs had demonstrably less incidence of heart disease ("The Big Fat Surprise", Nina Teicholz).
I'm starting to lose significant weight; weight that has been on for over 10 years. Not only that, but my experience is much like that GlassAngyl. I haven't taken an NSAID (e.g. Alleve) for 2 weeks and my psoriatic arthritis seems gone. Yeah, the breath thing, but that goes away. I don't have a sugar/insulin "crash" after every meal. If you drink a lot of water, that's minimal. You can have a lot of delicious things, but not a lot of carbs. My body seems to have adapted to it relatively quickly.
I'm allowed 2000 calories a day and I'm targeting 70/20/10 fat / protein / carbs, so 10% carbs. That's low but that is 200 calories of carbs which is 50 g of carbs per day. A whole potato is only 37 g, so Tuscan soup would be below that is you have one serving and make it yourself and there is no added sugar. Most processed and restaurant versions of any recipe adds sugar, primarily to accommodate "american" palates. So as long i follow my diet the rest of the day, there are very few carbs I really CAN'T have. I had "real" eggs benedict yesterday, the english muffin is only 25g of carbs.
There are variants of the diet including "cycled" ketone and "targeted" ketone that allows higher portions of carbs carefully timed before workouts as long as you NEVER eat carbs and fats at the same time.
The diet does seem to work. The medical problems associated with carbs and sugars, and cooked and processed animal fats are quite extensive and serious. I feel getting them out of a diet is a good thing. You can have your own opinions, but you can't have your own biology.
I agree also with J72FIT, it may not be for everyone. More active people with less insulin resistance could probably have more carbs than i eat now, but this works for me.
Care to argue Palaeolithic grain use with an archaeologist?. We've been eating grains for 10s of thousands of years. Earliest evidence for flour manufacture is around 30,000 years old. Grain consumption increased with domestication, undoubtably, but actual grain consumption was far from a new thing. And there were plenty of other sources of carbohydrate available too. "Man the meat eater" has been thoroughly debunked.
(also, if by ancestors you mean first bipedal hominins, more like 4.5 million years ago)10 -
Keto is how much of mankind lived for tens of thousands of years.
It is one of the most natural ways of eating for the human body and the body works best on ketones not glucose, for example your heart and brain.
Pros:
Loads of fiber, vitamins and minerals from the high intake of leafy green vegetables and other low carb vegetables. I never ate so many veggies in my life until I went on Keto!
Sharpened clarity of thinking - no more brain fog due to too many carbs.
Ward off the risk of cancer with very low carbs.
No hungry feelings anymore, because there are no longer any swings of insulin and blood sugar as I used to experience on a carb based diet.
Sustained energy throughout the day, lots of energy!
No longer craving the things I used to need a fix for, like ice cream, chocolate, and so on.
Cons:
You do need to make an effort to keep some variety going across different meals, if you're prone to getting bored. Same with lots of things in life really.
You dont reduce cancer risk by eliminating carbs. There are so many types of cancers, its ridiculous and at best keto has been preliminarily shown to be beneficial with some types of brain cancers along with formal treatment.
Prevention is different than treatment. I don't think you can say "you don't reduce cancer risk by eliminating carbs" but it is safe to say that there is currently a paucity of evidence. However, inferences can be made. On a typical, obesity causing American diet, overconsumption of carbs leads to chronic insulin production (due to insensitivity) which increases inflammation. Chronic inflammation is linked to cancer in many different sites. There is a pretty good evidence base for hypothesizing that reduction of carbs leads to reduction of insulin-mediated inflammation leads to reduction in overall cancer risk. However, at this point, it is merely a hypothesis. Unlike the effect of low carbs on athlerosclerosis, which there is stronger evidence for benefit.10
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